In this episode, I speak with Jon Marvel, public lands activist and the founder of Western Watersheds Project. We talk about his background, his first experiences on public lands in Idaho, what public lands mean to him, looking at ecosystems with fresh eyes, the vast destruction from intensive livestock grazing on public lands, a vision for public lands without the cows, multiple use mandates, the Bundy clan, the contentious founding of the Idaho Watersheds Project (pre Western Watersheds Project), buying grazing leases for conservation purposes, why some conservation groups don’t address the issue of public lands grazing, reflecting back on his time with Western Watersheds, legislative buyout programs, grazing as the most ubiquitous use of public lands and the reasons why grazing destroys ecosystems.