Host: Luke Waldo

Experts:

• Julie Ahnen – Dane County HHS
• Laura Glaub – Madison Metro School District
• Marc Seidl – Brown County HHS

:00-:16 – Julie Ahnen “Do the best you can until you know better. And then when you know better, do better.”

:20-3:50 – Luke Waldo – Opening and Welcome

• Child Protective Services Reports Dashboard - Wisconsin Department of Children and Families

3:51-4:26 – Luke - I’d like to begin our conversation by learning more about you and your journeys with mandated reporting, community collaboration, and systems and service failures on children and families. Welcome, Julie.

4:27-9:22– Julie Ahnen – Over a 25 year career in child welfare, she acknowledges that she has had some blind spots with mandated reporting. In the past 15 years in Dane County, they have recognized the disproportionality that exists in our child welfare system. “We don’t have control over who comes through the front door.” Center for the Study of Social Policy webinar on Implicit Bias and Structural Racism led her team to researching changes in mandated reporting to mandated supporting in places like New York. The mantra has been for decades “see something, say something”, but the last two and a half years since the murder of George Floyd has led to a shift. People like Dorothy Roberts have been articulating these messages of change for decades.

• Exploring Implicit Bias in Child Welfare – Center for the Study of Social Policy
• Shattered Bonds: The Color of Child Welfare – Dorothy Roberts
• What Does it Mean to Abolish the Child Welfare System as We Know It? - CSSP

9:23-10:01 - Luke – Dorothy Roberts is mentioned frequently in this podcast. Marc, what has your journey looked like?

10:02-14:17 – Marc Seidl – Over the past 15 years as part of the child welfare system, he too has voiced the mantra of reporting whenever you have a concern for a child. However, he now recognizes that the data shows that this has resulted in “casting an incredibly wide net that is entangling families needlessly” in the system. Most of those families don’t meet the maltreatment standards, so they don’t receive services that they truly need as CPS is not built to do that for families that don’t enter the system. In Brown County, of the 4,000 reports that they receive each year, 73% are screened out, yet those reports live on for those families. This reality has led to a real passion to addressing our mandated reporting process to improve outcomes for families.

• Child Welfare Reports and Dashboards – Wisconsin DCF
• Putting Families First Dashboard – Racial and Ethnic Disparities - DCF

14:18-15:41 - Luke – Thank you, Marc, for sharing those startling statistics in which 3,000 of the 4,000 families that are reported to Brown County CPS never reach the system.

15:42-16:21 - Marc – Of those 1000 or so families that are screened in, only 6% or so are substantiated for maltreatment. “So there is this reverse funnel” where only a few families actually have committed maltreatment while the majority of families coming to the attention of the child welfare system have not.

16:22-16:44 – Luke – So based on my math, only 60 families ultimately enter the child welfare system due to substantiated maltreatment of the 4,000 initial reports?

16:45-17:28 - Marc – Ultimately, around 140 families entered the Brown County child welfare system of the 4,000 reports that were made.

17:29-17:35 - Luke – Laura, can you share your journey?

17:36-23:30 – Laura Glaub – Her journey starts once she joined a school district. As a White woman, she didn’t experience the child welfare system on the other side of mandated reporting. As an AmeriCorps member, she always consulted with her students and families so that she could support them rather than report them. As a social worker, she looks to collaborate with families even though the policies often encourage her to call CPS whenever there is doubt. Laura tells a story about how she handled an incident when a student disclosed an allegation of abuse to her. She contacted the parent to work collaboratively with the parent in reporting with her. Laura has worked more collaboratively with partners like Julie and Dane County HHS since the pandemic to improve outcomes like chronic absenteeism for children and families.

• AmeriCorps

23:31-25:00 – Luke – How does mandated reporting impact overloaded families and our workforce?

25:01-30:15 – Julie – The history of our child welfare laws have targeted Black and minority families starting with AFDC. Family separation of Black and Native families has been deeply rooted in our history. The Flemming Rule came along in the 1960s that led to an increase in more families coming into the child welfare system. Then CAPTA led to an even greater increase due to fear from mandated reporters as they didn’t want to be penalized for not reporting. Reporters have historically wanted to remain anonymous, and would get angry if they were discovered by the family that they reported. This creates an adversarial dynamic rather than one of collaboration and trust, which overloaded families need to overcome their challenges. Now, Dane County is shifting more towards collaborating with families to build that trust, which is empowering staff.

• Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC)
• Flemming Rule
• The Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act(CAPTA)

30:16-30:24 – Luke – What does AFDC stand for?

30:25-30:43 - Julie – Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) is now known as TANF.

30:44-31:46 - Luke – The consequences for mandated reporting often lead to a lack of engagement and support from our community and our most overloaded families. There is often a lack of accountability to overloaded families who need support, but instead are reported to CPS.

31:47-35:18 - Marc – We got into this work because we want to help families. There has been a shift from investigating families like law enforcement to conducting assessments, which started with the alternative response pilot to better understand and support families that are overloaded. Access is critical as it is the front door to the child welfare system, so the assessment process should feel like an interview to better understand what is really happening in families’ lives. Trust is very difficult when our role is seen as intruding in their lives and not providing the support they need. We “need to bridge that gap (of trust) first.”

• Alternative Response

35:19-35:22 - Luke – Laura, how does mandated reporting impact families and school staff?

35:23-37:28 - Laura – “When I think of mandated reporting, I think of stressful and punitive interactions. When I make a report, I know that it will not be neutral as my experience influences my decision.” Families are doing the best for their kids. They are navigating systems that have harmed them.

37:29-39:24 - Julie – There is a level of fear in the community of mandated reporters and child welfare professionals because they know that they can interview their children without their presence and have the authority to separate their families. This dynamic makes it difficult to build trust.

39:25-39:43 - Luke – What is not working that is leading to overloaded families being reported to CPS?

39:44-42:30 - Marc – Wendy Henderson, DCF Administrator, shared recently that 15 years ago around 40% of all child maltreatment substantiations were due to neglect. That number is now 70%. That coupled with 15 years ago had 80 out of 100 families that lived in poverty were supported by TANF whereas now that number is 21 out of 100 families. If Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs is not met, the basic needs of an individual or family, then all the other needs are more difficult to focus on and meet. How does a low-paying job pay for the high costs of childcare? If economic instability wasn’t an issue, would we see as much substance abuse and mental health issues?

• Few Families Receive the TANF Cash Assistance They’re Eligible For – Urban Institute
• Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs

42:31-43:18 - Luke – We may need to invite you back, Marc, to join our conversations around economic stability. Laura?

• ICFW Economic Stability Critical Pathway

43:19-45:15 - Laura – The new Race to Equity report came out, which shows that it is very difficult to be Black in this state. Wisconsin also has many non-profits, but it is too often difficult for families to get what they actually need. It’s easier to get a turkey or backpack than the services or resources that would help families overcome the systemic challenges that overload them.

• Race to Equity report

45:16-47:04 - Luke – What is the state of community collaboration in your community?

• ICFW Community Collaboration Critical Pathway

47:05-48:52 - Julie – There is still a belief system that poverty is a moral failing. We then look to “repair” this struggling individual rather than fix the systems that lead to poverty.

48:53-50:02 - Luke – As Jennifer Jones stated in the first season, we can both feed people that are hungry while also addressing the systemic and root causes of hunger. Marc, what is the state of community collaboration?

50:03-53:26 - Marc – There is robust collaboration between Brown County CPS and its school districts through a number of meetings each year. Those meetings have expanded since the pandemic. They exchange knowledge and dialogue around how they can work better together and with their families. They have worked on mandated reporting with one another. CPS is now looking to connect with families first rather than making decisions without their input.

53:27-53:45 - Luke – Laura?

53:46-57:25 - Laura – The school district in partnership with Dane County HHS has shifted from mandated reporting to mandated supporting, from truancy to chronic absenteeism, which focuses on trying to understand what is underlying the chronic absenteeism and what might be missing for families. This has led to a wraparound approach and community collaboration with housing, mental health, family-serving organizations that are communicating more effectively now, particularly for families that have been historically excluded.

57:26-58:11 - Luke – Julie Incitti from Department for Public Instruction introduced us through their efforts to better understand how mandated reporting has worked and not worked in schools. Julie, what has your team been working on to shift from mandated reporting to a more supporting mindset?

• Child Abuse and Neglect training – Department for Public Instruction

58:12-1:03:11 - Julie – Dane County’s mandated reporting process has long been a “how to” rather than emphasizing why we report who and what we report. There has been a shift towards understanding implicit bias and how it has led to disproportionality of Black and minority families being reported as well as too many families being reported who never receive the services that they could really benefit from. Encouraging more critical thinking to determine if the report rises to the level of maltreatment. Providing education to the community that anyone can refer families to the services that CPS can refer to so that they don’t feel that they need to refer to CPS for those services. Dane County has opened a line for reporters to consult with CPS rather than make the report before reflecting on whether it meets the definition of maltreatment.

1:03:12-1:04:18 – Luke – What if the thousands of families in Wisconsin that were reported to CPS but didn’t receive services were referred to a system that is designed to support them?

1:04:19-1:05:36 – Laura – The new Mandated Supporting approach centers families as the solution. All of MMSD is receiving the Mandated Supporting training.

1:05:37-1:05:58 – Luke – MMSD is Madison Metro School District. Marc?

1:05:59-1:09:55 - Marc – There has been a shift towards engagement and assessment with children and families to better understand what is truly happening with a family. They have also added their phone numbers and encouragement on screen out letters so that reporters can understand the screen out decision. This creates more collaboration and open lines of communication.

1:09:56-1:12:08 - Luke – There are two systems change levers that have been shared – 1. Change in mental models. 2. Relationships with overloaded families and community partners. What is still needed?

1:12:09-1:14:29 - Julie – Our mental models still need to shift. Some overloaded families don’t have the awareness that they are struggling, so we need to build community support around those families before they need intervention. We can’t rely solely on community organizations to solve these problems.

1:14:30-1:14:31 – Luke – Thank you, Julie. Marc?

1:14:32-1:17:23 - Marc – We need to meet families’ basic needs so that we can reduce the need for child welfare intervention. During the pandemic, stimulus checks brought down poverty and child welfare removals. 87% of families used their checks for basic needs.

• Stimulus Payments, Child Tax Credit Expansion Were Critical Parts of Successful COVID-19 Policy Response -

1:17:24-1:19:00 - Luke – We have a poverty crisis in this country. There needs to be upward pressure that includes more money in families’ pockets and downward pressure on the rising costs of housing, childcare, and food.

1:19:01-1:22:08 - Laura – We need to shift the responsibility more onto our systems that are causing many of these problems, particularly the cost and inaccessibility of basic needs. We also need a community wraparound approach that supports and empowers families.

1:22:09-1:22:26 – Luke – What makes you optimistic?

1:22:27-1:23:21 - Laura – Students and families advocating for themselves. There are great collaborative efforts that are pushing to dismantle oppressive systems and improve our policies and practices.

1:23:22-1:23:26 - Luke – Marc?

1:23:27-1:24:52 - Marc – We are having these conversations. Years ago, this conversation wouldn’t have happened. Most of the people having these conversations are receptive to these new ideas.

1:24:53-1:25:51 - Luke – Systems change does not happen unless hearts and minds change, and that can’t happen if these conversations aren’t happening.

1:25:52-1:28:12 - Julie – Similar to Marc, the fact that these conversations are happening in our organizations and communities is promising. There are local and national efforts that are looking at economic and concrete supports as a solution to family separation. It’s also promising that young professionals entering the child welfare system today are learning differently, are exposed to the teachings of Dorothy Roberts and can be the disruptors to change the system.

• Dorothy Roberts
• Color of Child Welfare conference

1:28:13-1:28:51 - Luke – What book or author has shaped your thinking?

1:28:52-1:29:31 - Julie

• Dorothy Roberts – Torn Apart
• Shanta Trivedi

1:29:32-1:29:33 – Luke – Laura?

1:29:34-1:30:19 – Laura

• Dr. Bettina Love – We Want to Do More than Survive
• UpEnd Podcast

1:30:20-1:30:29 – Luke – Marc?

1:30:30-1:31:27 - Marc

• Closing the Front Door of Child Protection: Rethinking Mandated Reporting
• An Unintended Abolition. Family Regulation During the COVID-19 Crisis

1:31:28-1:32:28 - Luke – Thank you, Julie, Laura and Marc

1:32:34-1:35:10 - Luke – 3 Key Takeaways

1:35:11-1:37:24 - Luke – Closing Credits

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