Diversifying Arts and Culture with Alex Sarian

Sep 19 2023 • 38 mins

Melanie Nicholson welcomes President and CEO of Arts Commons in Calgary, Alex Sarian, to the show for a conversation around building community and ensuring diversity in arts programming. Alex is dedicated to ensuring that all communities and audiences find connections that matter to them in the arts.

Shortly upon arriving in Calgary, Alex Sarian realized that the city boasts a truly diverse array of communities but that many of those communities were not attending Arts Commons events. He asked the question of how Arts Commons could engage those communities in cultural experiences that aligned with their definition of their cultural identity. This is the foundation of what drives diversifying the arts, according to Alex: asking the right questions and living in that question. Alex and Melanie discuss the opportunities that Covid created, how programming can be inspired by engagement with external community artists, who is coming to arts events, and why Alex considers that audience perception may outweigh artist intent where performing arts centers are concerned. Join Melanie for an inspiring look into Arts Commons and the arts community she fervently supports.

“... So on the one hand, it's managing expectations and saying what worked in New York is not going to work in Calgary. And just because we had the answers in New York doesn't mean we're going to have the answers in Calgary. But what we do know how to do is how to ask different questions. So if we can ask different questions and surround ourselves with the right people, and if we're open to what the possibility of the answer to that question might look like, then we will truly figure out a way for Calgary to develop its own approach to engaging more people.” - Alex Sarian

About Alex Sarian

From Buenos Aires to Shanghai to New York City, Alex has worked with artists and arts organizations in fifteen countries spanning five continents. As an executive, he spent the past seven years at Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, where—most recently—he led the institution’s grant-making, global consulting, community engagement, education, and artistic programming for young audiences and families.

In January 2020, Alex was appointed President & CEO of Arts Commons, Canada’s third largest performing arts center, and home to institutions such as the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra and Theatre Calgary. Occupying 10 acres, the Arts Commons complex features 560,000 square feet of world-class performance venues, rehearsal studios, production workshops, education spaces, art galleries, restaurants, and public community areas.

Welcoming more than 600,000 visitors to 2,000 events annually, Arts Commons is embarking on a $450M expansion campaign, which will double the institution’s footprint in downtown Calgary.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Contact Melanie Nicholson | Melanie Lynn Communications Inc.

Contact Alex Sarian

Transcript

Melanie Nicholson: [00:00:03] Hey, everyone, and welcome to It's a Theory. I'm your host, Melanie Nicholson and today we're talking about what it looks like to transform an arts community into one that is community-minded and inclusive for everyone. Alex Sarian is the president and CEO of Arts Commons in Calgary, Alberta, which is the largest arts center in western Canada and the third largest facility in the country. He's one of the youngest CEOs to oversee a major performing arts center in North America. And prior to being in Calgary, Alex spent 18 years in New York City, the last seven at the Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts. Alex has worked on cultural projects in 15 countries, spanning five continents. Alex and I have a shared love of storytelling and the importance of that when it comes to building a community, strengthening relationships, and the opportunity to rethink the way art is presented in a community. Today, you're really going to get a sense of how one idea might not work everywhere and while you might have the same theory going in, the outcomes are going to vary. But it really comes down to asking questions. Let's dive in.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:01:13] Alex, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Alex Sarian: [00:01:17] Thanks, Melanie. It's my pleasure to be here. Happy Friday.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:01:19] Happy Friday. I love recording on a Friday. We're talking art today. I'm excited about it, I love art. Arts Commons. It's one of the largest facilities in the country. You're deep into transforming this space. Before we get to where you want to go, I want to start with you arrived from New York City. When you first got here what was your impression of Arts Commons, of the arts scene in Calgary?

Alex Sarian: [00:01:46] So I had done, obviously, I'd done a lot of research before making the trip out here, even for the interviews. And you know, Calgary does a really good job of pushing out certain messages. You know, we're one of the largest cities, we're the third most diverse, and all of that is true. But one of the things I realized when I got here was - so I'll be honest, I got here on like a Wednesday night at like 10 p.m. and I dropped my bags off at the hotel and I snuck into Arts Commons as all these theatre shows and concerts were letting out. So I got a chance to talk to like hundreds and thousands of people as they were leaving their experiences and seeing the smiles on the faces and seeing just how people were not just coming together, but leaving together and going back into their lives and seeing the impact that this experience had just had on them was so beautiful and so wonderful. But I will be honest, one of the things that I noticed the most is, you know, I had read a lot about how Calgary is the third most diverse city in Canada. And I remember sitting there in the lobby of Arts Commons or in one of the Jack Singer predominantly, and looking around and saying, Oh, this doesn't feel like the diversity that I read about. And what was interesting over the three-day period that I was in Calgary, I did a lot of stuff. I spend most of my time at Arts Commons, but I spent 2 or 3, I went to the downtown public library 2 or 3 times in my very short stay. And even though we're just two blocks away, I was able to sit in the atrium of the downtown public library and think to myself, Oh, here's the diversity that Calgary's been talking about.

Alex Sarian: [00:03:33] Here's the diversity that I've been reading about. And it's not accidental. And you look at the downtown library and it's just so beautiful in its design, it's so intentional in its programming. And I said to myself, if Calgary can do this with a library, it can do this with the arts. And so this is a very long-winded way of answering your question, which is to say there is so much opportunity, there are so many beautiful things here and there's so much low-hanging fruit in the sense that there's so many wins that could, that are easily available. So like the people are there, the communities are there, they're hungry for opportunities. If only we can build and design and rethink these institutions that are meant to be truly for everybody. And if we truly are meant to be for everybody, what does it look like to redesign ourselves, to rethink ourselves, to change the DNA of our organizations so that we can be this destination for truly every Calgarian. So we're talking about transformation, and certainly, we're talking about physical transformation because we're building the largest art center in Canada. But at the core, what we're transforming is our relationship with community. And one of the things I realized when I came to Calgary is just how wide a variety of communities make up Calgary, how hungry they are for opportunities to come together, and what a great opportunity we have as Arts Commons in downtown Calgary to design a city that is truly for everyone.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:05:06] How do you, you've mentioned rethink multiple times, and like you say, there's the building, but there's changing that mindset. How do you go about doing that? Like when you take your idea, the concept you're working from is let's rethink the entire framework of art in this city. How do you do that? Where do you start?

Alex Sarian: [00:05:26] You know, honestly and maybe I'm not that smart, but I don't think it's that difficult. And I was very clear when I came here, like everybody was like, oh my God, you're from New York City. This is amazing. And I had to manage expectations and I had to say to people, yes, I'm from New York City, but I need you to know that what works in New York City is not going to work in Calgary. And I was able to, I learned that lesson very quickly because one of my jobs, when I was in New York at Lincoln Center, was doing international consulting. And so you have all these clients from around the world, government agencies, cultural organizations, that are flying you out to their corner of the world assuming that because you work at Lincoln Center, you're going to know what success looks like in Shanghai or Mexico City or Barcelona. And you are very quickly disabused of that notion because so much about arts and culture needs to be hyper-local. It's how do the local community celebrate cultural identity and no two cities or communities will ever look the same. So on the one hand, it's managing expectations and saying what worked in New York is not going to work in Calgary. And just because we had the answers in New York doesn't mean we're going to have the answers in Calgary. But what we do know how to do is how to ask different questions. So if we can ask different questions and surround ourselves with the right people, and if we're open to what the possibility of the answer to that question might look like, then we will truly figure out a way for Calgary to develop its own approach to engaging more people. And I'll give you an example. So, obviously I move here and the pandemic hits and everything gets turned upside down, including arts and cultural organizations, who are designed to, especially in the live performing arts, were designed to literally cram people into a venue for these cultural experiences, most of which are people singing and spitting and, you know, so like literally every...

Melanie Nicholson: [00:07:21] Breathing on people.

Alex Sarian: [00:07:22] Breathing on people, like literally everything that was wrong with the pandemic we were all of a sudden guilty of. And so we shut down because there's, you know, that's the first thing to do. And I'm glad we did. And it's the responsible thing to do. But then very quickly, we said, okay, how do we bring the benefits of arts and cultural experiences to Calgarians if we can't do it in these settings? And one of the things we did when we first got here, I asked the team, I said I want to look at a heat map of where people come to Arts Commons from. Our single ticket buyers, our subscribers, our, you know, our loyal patrons and donors. Where from within the city are they coming to us from? And I will say that one of the things that impressed me the most about Arts Commons is how many Calgarians come to us from all four quadrants. So when you look at a heat map of Calgary, there wasn't necessarily anything wrong with the visual. But you start visualizing these pockets of where people are coming to you from and more importantly, where they're not coming to you from. And, you know, you look at a quadrant like the northeast, which I have now come to learn is probably the most diverse in terms of ethnic, like ethnic diversity.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:08:35] It's beautiful.

Alex Sarian: [00:08:35] It's stunning. But we had the least amount of people coming to us from the northeast. And so one might look at that map and say, oh, there's a cultural desert in the northeast, but all you need to do is like go into these communities and realize that they're probably the most culturally diverse, culturally vibrant, culturally rich. And so the fact that people were not coming to Arts Commons from the northeast is a problem for me. And so we said, okay, how do, that becomes the question. How do we engage these communities in cultural experiences that align with how they define and celebrate their own cultural identity? So one of the things we did is we launched immediately this pop-up concert series. So like before anybody was doing these outdoor pop-up concerts, we launched this program, summer of 2020, called Arts Expeditions. And the whole premise was that there were these expeditions where people could chase or find these cultural moments across Calgary at the drop of a hat. Now, what wasn't so clear because it was part of the magic we were working behind the scenes is we were being very intentional in terms of where we were deploying these opportunities and who we were populating them with. So we said, okay, we're going to deploy across the four quadrants. But we're going to focus on certain communities where we knew we didn't have relationships.

Alex Sarian: [00:10:06] And we're not going to go into these communities with an Arts Commons banner and with artists that we think they need. We're actually going to engage in a conversation and say, How do you define cultural identity? How do you celebrate cultural identity? Are there artists within your community that are already doing that? And can we come in and partner with you and provide a platform and a safe gathering place outdoors where all we're doing is Arts Commons is being the conduit between local artists, local audiences, and provide these cultural experiences safely for communities on their terms and on their turf. And really build those relationships in people's backyards. And then if we're lucky, as the world reopens to say, okay, we now want to thank you for your generosity, we want to thank you for your hospitality, but we also want to return the favor. So you welcomed us into your neighborhood, into your school and to your park, now we would like to do the same for you. And so we were able to take all the things we learned from being welcomed into that community and we were able to tweak programming on our end. And we were able to leverage those relationships to say, okay, now you have a home at Arts Commons. And if we've done our jobs right, you will be able to come have a cultural experience that is an extension of who you are and how you identify, but you'll be able to do it within the confines of these beautiful venues, these beautiful assets, these beautiful facilities, which even though we've been around for 40 years, we haven't always belonged to everybody.

Alex Sarian: [00:11:50] So, I'm giving you, I mean, we're never going to get there. It's not, you know, you don't arrive. This is a constant evolution. It's constantly asking questions. So, you know, in sharing the story, I don't want to give your listeners the impression that, like, oh, we solved it. We're never going to solve it. But it's always a work, like we're always working towards it. And I find that when you live in the question rather than trying to have the answer, and let's be honest, it's all about the journey. It's all about relationship building. It's all about, it's all about stopping, like there are too many arts organizations that say, What are we good at? As opposed to asking, What are we good for? And when you ask the question, what are we good for, the answer is not up to me, the answer is up to others. And so it forces a level of humility. Personally, professionally, institutionally, that I find most arts organizations don't have.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:12:50] What's interesting to me, and I mean, there's, we can talk about everyone had such a different experience with Covid, but what I've really loved is that what Covid did on the plus side is it did give organizations, it forced organizations into a space of let's think about something a bit different. Let's explore a different avenue. We had Wakefield Brewster on the podcast, Calgary's poet laureate, and one thing he talked about was that instantly the reach was further, the inclusivity was further. And someone who might not have had the opportunity to experience the arts or wasn't feeling confident enough to go to an arts venue because they weren't sure what to expect, all of a sudden they could do that in a safe space, in a less pressured space. And now as you come out, like you say, they're more inclined. And to me, that's a beautiful outcome of a challenging situation where people were exposed - I mean, even if you look at other things outside of the arts - people were exposed to things that they might not have been before.

Alex Sarian: [00:13:57] Yeah. And I find that regardless of the sector, you will have organizations or companies or institutions or frankly, even people, like, you will have organizations that just sat back and said, we're going to wait it through. Those are the organizations that are struggling. It's the organizations that look that challenge in the face and said, we're going to come out of this different that, I mean, listen, everybody's struggling. Everybody's trying to figure out what the new normal is or the new future is. But I find that organizations like you're talking about, organizations that were able to lean in and say, how do we come out of this pandemic differently than how we went into it, those are the organizations that I'm loving watching their journey. Hopefully Arts Commons is one of those. And I know all of the work that went in during the pandemic that has challenged us to rethink who we are and who we want to be. But yeah, you know, there are too many organizations that sort of sat back and said, You know, if we can't gather, then we can't do it. So we're going to just lay low. And those are the organizations that are struggling because they haven't doubled down on their relationships. They haven't figured out how to build new ones. And you know, I'll tell you this about the arts. The arts we've had across the world a problem of declining relevance for decades. And so there are too many arts organizations that are looking at the pandemic and blaming the pandemic. And I'm like, guys, we've been having this problem for at least 20 years.

Alex Sarian: [00:15:35] The pandemic has accelerated. And it's a problem of our own making. Right? So like this idea of declining relevance, like the idea of relevance alone, is predicated on this back and forth, on having dialogue. If organizations stop being relevant, then I'm willing to argue you've not done your job figuring out what your value proposition is to the people and communities that surround you. And what they need. So there are too many arts organizations, and get I get in trouble for saying this, there are too many arts organizations out there right now saying, oh, people aren't coming back. Audiences are not returning with the same level of rigor and vigor that we need them to. And I'm like, that's not a pandemic problem. That's not an audience problem. That's a you problem. And at what point do we stop blaming audiences? At what point do we stop, like they're just... and like this, we're getting real now, but like arts organizations have - we and I include myself in that because I'm part of the community - we have this tendency to say, Oh, audiences are not coming back fast enough, or we have a tendency to say there's donor fatigue, or we have a tendency to say, you know, audience development needs to be... And I'm like, no, if we focus on being relevant and having our finger on the pulse of what communities want and how we are uniquely equipped to engage with them, to provide it to them, then audiences will come back in droves. I mean, look at Stampede. Stampede is probably going to be like the second...

Melanie Nicholson: [00:17:13] One of the biggest ones they've had, I think, isn't it? But doesn't it all really go back to the asking questions like, do we get so caught up as a society, and focused on, Well, I'm pretty sure I know what we want. We need to do this, this and this, and that's going to create the transformational change without forgetting to ask questions.

Alex Sarian: [00:17:36] Yeah, and who are we doing it for? Right? And so there's, I always ask this question and it's a trick question by design, but the question is, what's more important, the intent of the artist or the perception of the audience? And that's a trick question by design because it essentially polarizes these two. Right? And I think the problem that we have as a sector is that for decades, the answer has unapologetically been the intent of the artist.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:18:10] But perception matters.

Alex Sarian: [00:18:12] Well, perception is absolutely, I mean...

Melanie Nicholson: [00:18:14] It's everything.

Alex Sarian: [00:18:14] It's everything. And so, and I get in trouble for saying this because in my position, and it's a spectrum, right? It's not one or the other, but from where I'm sitting, in my job, I see the answer having to be closer to the perception of people. And I'll give you two examples of these two extremes, right? So on the side of the spectrum that leans towards the intent of the artist, I always talk about this one conversation I had with an artistic director of a theatre company in Berlin maybe 10, 12 years ago. And he said to me, you know, he said, I could plan an entire season of plays by Bertolt Brecht, who's this, like, old, you know, wonderful but very traditional - well, it depends who you ask - but a very traditional German playwright. And he says to me, I can plan an entire season of Brecht shows, not sell a single ticket, and the government will still give me all my money.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:19:20] Oh, interesting.

Alex Sarian: [00:19:22] So that's an organization who focuses on the intent of the artist, will focus an entire season on honoring the work of a particular artist and doesn't necessarily care or have to care or is even being held accountable to whether people buy tickets because they want to see stuff. Right? So that's one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum, I'm fascinated, like sociologically, with these like VidCon, like these YouTube conferences.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:19:52] Yes.

Alex Sarian: [00:19:53] Where you essentially have these producers that find these content creators, they don't call them artists, they call them content creators, and essentially what they do is they find these content creators. If you as a content creator, have a YouTube following of more than 2 million people, they will call you and say, Hey, Melanie, I'm going to give you 15 minutes of stage time to do in person in front of thousands of people what you would normally do in front of your webcam at home. And the amount of money that is made because these teenagers from across North America, I mean I've been to these things because I needed to witness them firsthand. Young people in the United States, when given the option of going to this conference or going to DisneyWorld as a graduation trip, will go to these conferences.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:20:46] Fascinating.

Alex Sarian: [00:20:47] Fascinating. And so the reason I highlight this as an example of the other end of the spectrum is because that, to me, you are giving somebody literally what they want. And there's no dialogue in terms of the artist or the content creator challenging the perception of the audience. So both extremes are unhealthy.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:21:12] Yeah, but can you not find somewhere in the middle?

Alex Sarian: [00:21:14] You find somewhere in the middle. And I think where, all of this to say, I think my middle will always lean closer to perception because people will tell you what they want, whether they vote with their feet, they vote with their wallets, you know, if it doesn't, you know, Arts Commons could bring in one of the greatest artists in the world. But if nobody comes was it a successful experience? I'd be willing to say no.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:21:44] How do you navigate that when you're dealing with, I mean, whether here or there, anywhere as an organization, when you've got a group of people focused on intent and you're trying to pull towards perception, how do you, because I imagine that's probably one of the - correct me if I'm wrong - one of the hardest parts of transformational change is sort of moving that needle. Is that fair to say?

Alex Sarian: [00:22:10] Absolutely. And I think what happens is 20 years ago, an artistic director would literally sit in their office and decide this is who we're bringing in, and they would design these seasons in a vacuum. What programmers are doing now, and what I'm proud that Arts Commons is doing now, when you look at our programming team, these are people that are embedded in community and in different communities. So these are not people that are coming to me saying we need to present these artists because I say so. They say to me, we need to present these artists because they are reflective of something that is happening within community. And so we try to find those artists that are the manifestation of larger conversations, whether they're societal, whether they're civic. And you try to it's this really fine balance between saying we're not the arbiters of excellence, we're not the tastemakers, we are engaging in conversation and saying, okay, tell me about, like, one of the things that our programming team does really well is they embed themselves in community. And not like they're spies, like they're part of community, like they're...

Melanie Nicholson: [00:23:24] Skulking around.

Alex Sarian: [00:23:26] But they put their finger on the pulse of like, okay, what are people interested in? What is keeping people up at night? And are there artists out there that are speaking to that? And so the process of programming has evolved and has become a reflection and an answer to these dialogues rather than somebody saying you're going to love them because I say so.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:23:52] We're in Calgary. When I think of the arts, to me, it's not a geographical element, I think about, because there's so much connection around the world. How can what you're doing here spread for global impact? How can other cities of different sizes, how can they incorporate more inclusivity into the arts? What do you want to see as a global community member?

Alex Sarian: [00:24:22] I want to, so two things: I want to see organizations ask themselves, Who isn't coming and why? I think as organizations, we tend to get too happy with the people that come. And we tend to forget or even ask about the people that don't and why aren't they coming? And you know, at Arts Commons, we have the benefit, we are a performing arts center. We're not a dance company, we're not a theatre company, so there's a nuance difference. Like a theatre company that has a five-show season, your inventory is only five shows. When you're a performing arts center, our inventory is 2000 events per year. And those events are rock concerts and jazz concerts and National Geographic speakers, and, you know, it just... When you have the footprint of a performing arts center, and it doesn't have to be as big as Arts Commons, but performing arts centers by sheer virtue of how they're designed, you have a responsibility to be more things to more people. And I'll give you a perfect example. When I came to Arts Commons, Arts Commons has incredible resident companies. We have incredible community partners. We have an incredible team that does so many activations within our facility, but all the people programming - and this is internal and external partners - we never zoomed out and looked at the whole picture. So what was happening accidentally is you had an organization like Arts Commons with a footprint of 2000 events per year probably chasing after the same 50,000 Calgarians. And I'm like, when you have an inventory of 2000 events per year and your pie is that big, you better make sure that you have more pies, like more slices for more people. And so the question for us is who is not coming and why? And then how do we rethink our offerings to make sure that we're creating different entry points for different people? And once we have different entry points, how do we then cross-pollinate audiences? So that's the first question, is why aren't people coming and what are we doing about it? The second question, and you're right, we are this international community, but we are uniquely placed within Calgary. And so there's this term which I hate, but I can't find a replacement for it, and it's called glocal. Don't know if you've heard of it before.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:26:54] I have. But I agree. There's got to be a better word.

Alex Sarian: [00:26:57] There's got to be a better way. But what I love about the word is that it starts, it taps into the tension between local and global impact. And the reason I like glocal as a concept but hate it as a word, conceptually I like it because too many organizations will say, Oh, I have a hyper-local impact or I have a global impact. And I'm like, no, you can't, like these need to be in a relationship with one another. And I learned this really interestingly when I was in Boston. I was consulting with a company there, with an arts organization there that was very well-loved around the world. And this company would go do performances in Paris and would come back to Boston with the front page of a Parisian newspaper and say, Look at us, aren't we great? And what they very quickly realized is that people in Boston didn't care. So, you look but you look at the DNA of a city like Boston. Right? Like Boston Proud is literally a term. You look at the hospitals in Boston, you look at the sports team in Boston, you look at the universities in Boston, they all have a global reputation because of what they do locally. And so the premise for this client or this partner was to say, the only reason Boston will care about you is because of what you do with and for Boston, not because of what you're doing in Paris.

Alex Sarian: [00:28:34] And so all of this, this is a very long-winded way to answer your question, which is I do believe that Calgary will continue to have a global reputation and will continue to grow a global reputation. In the three years that I've been here, I've seen Arts Commons develop this larger platform for telling a story, like people around Canada and North America and the world are starting to pay attention to Arts Commons because of the project that we're embarking on. But we cannot forget that we are of and for Calgary first. And so that relationship between being this, having global aspirations but needing to measure our impact locally, is super important. So at Arts Commons we say all the time, how do we balance the need to welcome international artists to Calgary while also providing local Calgary artists with an international platform and bringing it together and like literally manifesting the tension and the complexity between being this conduit between somebody like Wakefield who is a global, and like Wakefield is now going to be our incubator fellow and he's designing next year's season for us. And so how do we bring local incredible talent, like, you know, like Wakefield, into these beautiful, internationally renowned venues and give local artists this platform while at the same time allowing local Calgary audiences and communities to experience some of what the world has to offer? It's not that complicated.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:30:12] So there we go. We've solved the problem.

Alex Sarian: [00:30:15] We've solved it.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:30:15] Everything's perfect. When you look for the next 1 to 2 years, I mean, we've talked about there's no end game, really. We're on a journey. What is that next 1 to 2 years look like when you think about sort of top priorities when it comes to increasing access, inclusivity, do you have some big buckets you're trying to accomplish over the next couple of years?

Alex Sarian: [00:30:39] Yeah, I would say three big ones. The first one is revealing the design for our new campus, breaking ground on the new campus, getting people excited about what this means, not just for the arts but for Calgary. The second thing is we are deeply, we're moving very deeply in the process of creating an Indigenous reconciliation strategy. And so a lot of that work is just happening behind the scenes and it's slowly manifesting itself in different ways operationally from a governance perspective. So not necessarily something that people would see outward facing, but it's helping to change the DNA of who we are internally. And then, again, if we change the DNA of who we are internally, we will manifest differently. And then the third one is really about rethinking our strategy around programming. And being more responsive. There was a research study that came out last December that tracked audience behavior of 300,000 arts goers over the three years of the pandemic. And, now this is a snapshot of last December, so mind you, like things have changed. But people were asked, 300,000 people across North America were asked, what their three main barriers were for returning to in-person experiences. And people could choose more than one and they could rank them. In third place and increasing, this was between 30 and 40%, was people were worried about inflation and discretionary income. Will I be able to afford going to a concert? And so in third place but growing was financial barriers. 30 to 40? No, 40 to 50%, so in second place but declining, was concerns around health and Covid and pandemic. And I think we've seen that decline continue. People are a little more comfortable across the board. But in first place, at a whopping 70 to 80% and staying flat, was this notion that we weren't giving people a good enough reason to leave their couch. And so when I look at those three barriers, I think to myself, well, listen, the financial barrier has always been there. We'll continue to chip away at it. I can bore you to tears in terms of what we've done from a health perspective within Arts Commons. But that first one is essentially, the way I interpret it is, we have not, we have not evolved. And we are not giving people compelling programming that will compete for other decisions they're making in terms of their personal time or financial like...

Melanie Nicholson: [00:33:43] Yeah, that makes them be like, This is worth it for me.

Alex Sarian: [00:33:47] Yeah. And so literally I go back to my team and I say of all the three barriers, that one's literally the one that we can, we can, like, that's our job.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:33:55] Yeah, that's an uphill slog when you've got that big of a bucket of people feeling that way.

Alex Sarian: [00:34:02] But the other thing it tells me is if there's ever a time to take risk, if there's ever a time to double down, it's got to be now.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:34:09] Yeah.

Alex Sarian: [00:34:10] And so that's why to me, when I see that survey result and then I look at organizations that are just doing like status quo, like guys, this is, that's not what people are asking us for.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:34:25] It's fascinating to me as an arts goer because I feel like, I mean, it's the programs that draw me off the couch. And I always find they always end up at the same time. And so I ended up last fall, when was that, in the spring, where all of a sudden two things I wanted to see landed on the same weekend. And I spent my whole weekend at Arts Commons and it was fantastic. And I felt so alive after because that's what live performance does to me. And I think, but to your point, it's the right one. It's the one that connects.

Alex Sarian: [00:34:57] Well and it's healthy competition. And what I've said to my team, and like, and I think everybody in Calgary now sees it and now with Stampede even more, like if you have a free night during the week, you probably have a good 3 to 4 options of things to do.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:35:10] Yes.

Alex Sarian: [00:35:11] What I told my team is we're not looking at that situation and withdrawing our programming. We're going to raise the bar and make sure that when the next time you have three options in front of you, you're going to pick the Arts Commons option because it's the best one.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:35:27] Yeah, because it ticks all the boxes. It is financially viable, I can get there, it's interesting to me - all the things.

Alex Sarian: [00:35:35] So when we look at that healthy competition, to me it's exciting because think it says something about Calgary. But it also helps raise the bar and can go to my team and say, Guys, this is now like, we need to make sure that the next time somebody is faced with three options, they pick ours. And that's exciting.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:35:57] And that's what makes the power of local become global.

Alex Sarian: [00:36:02] And those, and that's, you know, we're getting phone calls from people around the world saying, oh my God, look at what's happening at Arts Commons. Look what's happening in Calgary. We're not doing it to impress anybody other than Calgarians. You know? And that's what's, like, I learned very quickly that if you want to upset a Calgarian, all you need, like, just make sure you're trying to impress somebody from Toronto.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:36:29] I was just going to say or Edmonton.

Alex Sarian: [00:36:31] Or Edmonton.

Alex Sarian: [00:36:33] Now we're getting attention from Edmonton and Toronto, but not because we're playing to them, but because of what we're doing here. And so, like this tension between local and global is not that hard to unpack as long as you have your priorities and your values straight. And to me, values always need to be locally aligned because that's who you're serving.

Melanie Nicholson: [00:36:56] And I think that's a perfect place to call it a day. This has been incredible. I, as I've mentioned