Yarning Time - How to create a culturally safe workspace with Sam Murray The Ampliseed Podcast: Inspiring Stories, Episode 3

This is the third episode in Ampliseed’s Inspiring Stories series— interviews with leaders who inspire us on our pathway to an equitable and nature positive future, who share with us what brought them to this space, which opportunities inspired them, and what challenges they had to overcome.

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ON THIS EPISODE OF INSPIRING STORIES

How do we build culturally safe workplaces? Samantha Murray from the Indigenous Desert Alliance knows first hand how working in the city can be a daunting prospect for Aboriginal people who have grown up in remote desert communities. In this episode, Sam shares strategies on how organisations and companies can create culturally safe environments where First Nations people can feel spiritually, socially and emotionally safe.

ABOUT TODAY'S GUESTS

Sam Murray (Invited Guest)

Samantha Murray is Deputy CEO of the Indigenous Desert Alliance (IDA). Sam is a proud Yilka/Wongutha/Nyoongar woman who grew up in Cosmo Newberry (where she has traditional owner links) and Laverton. She is a currently a director of Yilka Heritage and Land Care, and has also worked with Central Desert Native Title Services and Desert Support Services as a human resources officer. She has also worked in a range of other government-based roles in education, public housing and TAFE. Sam is based on the Whadjuk Nyoongar lands of Perth.

Ariadne Gorring (co-Host)

Ariadne is the co-CEO of Pollination Foundation. Ariadne is passionate about Indigenous-led cultural conservation, working with the Kimberley Land Council (KLC) for over 20 years on native title and cultural and natural resource management. She is a former Atlantic Fellow for Social Equity at Melbourne University, and recipient of the Barbara Thomas Fellowship in Conservation Financing via The Nature Conservancy Australia. Ariadne is based on Bunurong Country in Melbourne.

Kirsty Galloway McLean (co-Host)

Kirsty leads Ampliseed, a global network connecting practitioners with a rights-based, human-centered approach to building environmental resilience. Her background includes over a decade with the United Nations working in Canada and Japan, and 15 years as CEO of a management and communications consulting firm in Australia. As Executive Director at Pollination Foundation, she works to connect and support international organisations, philanthropists, business, Indigenous and community leaders, and other corporate foundations to drive progress towards the Sustainable Development Goals. Kirsty is based on Bunurong Country in Melbourne.

SHOW NOTES

• This interview was originally recorded in 2021.

Additional resources

• Map:

• To find out more about what Sam and IDA are up to today, please check out the Indigenous Desert Alliance website https://www.indigenousdesertalliance.com/, and follow them on social media.  Facebook: @indigenousdesertalliance | Tiktok: @indigenousdesertalliance | Twitter: @IDA_Australia |  LinkedIn: @indigenous-desert-alliance | YouTube: @indigenousdesertalliance

TRANSCRIPT

Sam: Cultural safety is about trying to remove that very strong line. You know, trying to at least diminish that a little bit, so that person in the middle can feel like they can be themselves in both worlds: at home or country, and also in the corporate professional environment.

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Ariadne: From Ampliseed and the Pollination Foundation, welcome to Inspiring Stories. This series makes space for conversations with leaders who inspire us on a pathway to an equitable and nature positive future. And it's important to see the world through different eyes and understand different perspectives, and that's what really excites us about this podcast. I'm Ariadne Gorring, co-CEO of Pollination Foundation, and we focus on bringing community to the heart of climate solutions.

Kirsty: And I'm your co-host, Kirsty Galloway McLean. I lead Ampliseed, a peer-to-peer learning and doing network of landscape scale conservation projects around the world.

Ariadne: Today's episode comes from a Zoom that we recorded in October, 2021 with the very generous Sam Murray, and a really gorgeous story in the preparation for bringing this together was that Sam and I realized that one of my first jobs out of high school was working on a mine site in a very remote part of Western Australia. And it just so happens that that mine site in the town, Cosmo Newberry, is where Sam grew up, and I spent a lot of my time when I was on the mine playing with the kids and we think that Sam was probably one of those kids that I spent time with. So a really beautiful point of connection to start us off today.

Kirsty: Sam works at the Indigenous Desert Alliance and Sam's going to share with us today her experiences and insights on how to create culturally safe spaces that allow indigenous peoples and local communities to feel comfortable participating as their authentic selves.

Because this was originally a Zoom presentation with slides, for podcast purposes, we've edited Sam's story to make it standalone for you to listen to wherever and whenever suits you best. So where Sam makes visual references to maps or photos, you'll find these in the episode notes. But without further ado, let's welcome Sam.

Sam: This is actually the first time I've ever done this. So, yeah, thank you for coming on and letting me, have my first experience. Firstly, I'd like to speak some language, which is a mixture of Wangai and Ngaanyatjarra, where I'm from. Yuwa Nyagu yini Sam, Nyuku ngurda Yilka Noondina Pirni Walkumanu Bithanee Yinagardi Gulila - Nyahyu Wangka Pirni.

So I'm saying, Hi, my name is Sam, my home is Yilka, and thank you for all coming and sitting and listening to me talk and have a yarn. And I've called it yarning time, which means for our mob in the Australian indigenous context is us sharing, talking, knowledge, so we are going to have a bit of a yarning time.

I attended the Sydney Opening Olympic ceremony. I was one of the 300-odd indigenous central desert women that went to the Sydney Opening Olympics. So for a desert girl coming from Cosmo , traveling over to Sydney, first time ever, a lot of these women had never left their communities , but it was just an amazing invitation to suddenly go over to Sydney and dance and represent our culture. It was unique experience of being on a plane with like a hundred-odd desert women and some random families would be jumping on going, Wow, this is a different plane full of people that I was expecting so for me to maintain my cultural connectedness, I ring up quite a lot to my mob. I've got some family down here in Perth at the moment. So any opportunity I can, I speak language and, just keep that connection going. You know, Facebook, video calling, all of that stuff's important being away from home, to maintain cultural connection.

My passion. So I work at Indigenous Desert Alliance. It was created as a kind of a one stops place for people out in the Central Desert, rangers looking after country, rangers out in the communities, out in the desert. But pretty much at the crux of it rangers are indigenous people, looking after their country and getting skilled up or being developed into looking after their country.

So Indigenous Desert Alliance was created as a way to support the rangers out in the centre of Australia, the middle of WA, NT and South Australia, and it's a not-for-profit organization. And our whole core business is literally connecting rangers up together, supporting rangers to look after country their way. Australia's a very diverse country, the desert, so many different dialects, different groups, different languages, different ways looking after country. But the number one passion that we have as desert people is that we love looking after our country. It's a part of who we are. The state borders in the middle of Australia don't necessarily exist for mob. We have family running across all of the states. Those boundaries are recent boundaries. Back in the day, we'd wander around, you know, up to Northern Territory, South Australia, different areas, different states. So IDA likes to see ourselves that we cross those borders, that we support that natural sort of traveling around.

And the reason I can work for IDA is, a couple of years ago being asked if I could help facilitate a TO session, a Traditional Owner session, which is something that I'd never known before. And what IDA had created through Lindsay Langford CEO was creating these sessions where it was just traditional owners having a yam.

And I remember sitting in the room and suddenly, all of the non-indigenous people were asked to probably go and have a cup of tea, and probably leave the room, and let the traditional owners have a yarn. And I remember feeling like, Wow, I've never been somewhere where rangers were suddenly told that, you know, you have a whole space to talk and yarn with yourselves and then you can report back to the wider group.

But it was about creating a really cultural, safe space for desert people to yarn in a cultural way. To get our priorities out. And I remember being really amazed by that. And you know, not long after actually ended up working with IDA and Lindsay and I having yarns about me coming over and, um, and it was just a natural fit for me being here.

I'm a director of my mob, my country, Yilka's country, of their Heritage Land Care Board. So I have worked to create our Rangers, Yilka Rangers, which have only been around for two years, so it's just a natural fit for me here at IDA and I love it. So coming from a community girl to small town and then moving to Perth and only being in Perth for four years, and it's the biggest city I've ever lived in. Working in a place that understands you and creates a space for you to be yourself is amazing. And so the office actually feels like another home for me, and I'm able to be my cultural self here a lot more. And that's important, especially if you're working with indigenous people around the world about creating that cultural safe space.

So just before the cultural safety part, I just wanna talk about adapting. So, in other words, you might have heard the term shape shifting or code switching. Aboriginal people, and especially in Australia, we're very aware that we have to kind of fit into mainstream society, or at least try and adapt into it. For some indigenous people that can be quite hard to adapt and to code switch into different worlds and some struggle with doing that, and some do that very, very well.

I remember a story working in my last role, working the front with admin and speaking really good English. Adapting really, really well into the working environment. And we had some desert mob come to the front door and there were, some of them were a little bit, you know, had too much, um, 'red cordial' and, and they were a little bit full on to the receptionist, and I knew that they were from the same country that I was from. So, 12 hours away from Perth. So suddenly I've got up doing the gestures, rallying in language, telling him, Oh, you better go. You better go. And talking language and using my arms and quite culturally strong and it got the old feller out the door and settled him down. And I've come back and my coworkers who had worked with for like two years, were like, what was that? What just happened? You just turned into a completely different person. We didn't even know who you were. Who's that? I'm like, actually that's the real me. This the person that you think, like I, we just feel like we've just met a completely different person and, and I felt that it was actually a little bit to blame for myself because I'd code switched so well in an organization that mostly didn't have any Aboriginal people and one or two other Aboriginal people code switched so well, and I felt like I had to code switch so well that when they saw the real Sam in a way of my language and the way I moved and my behavior changed, they were actually completely surprised. It was a completely different person.

So after that I kind of, you know, opened up a bit more, had those conversations with them about creating a safe space so that people could be more themselves. So I think that perspective of understanding that indigenous people, around the world, if we're aware that there's such a mainstream majority environment, we've learned how to, or tried to learn to adapt and code switch in that space.

And cultural safety is about trying to remove that very strong line. You know, trying to at least diminish that a little bit so that person in the middle can feel like they can be themselves in both worlds at home and on country, and also in the corporate professional environment. And I think , that's a beautiful thing. I remember having these conversations coming into IDA and telling Lindsay, Look, I'm a single mum of two girls. I'm a director of my country. I gotta go back home. I've gotta drive out to Cosmo 12 hours away or fly out quarterly to go do director stuff. I've gotta go out and do cultural business. This is me. Are you willing to take me on? And Lindsay's like, That's who you are, Sam. That is exactly who you are. And we will accept, we need to accept who you are. Make all of those accommodations, those things come first before this. And that just creates a passion and an energy that I'm not spending trying to separate between two different worlds.

That line no longer exists for me where I work now, which is amazing. So my energy for IDA and my family and my tribe is equally spread out, and I think that's an amazing place to be at. And I think it's important to just think about those perspectives for an indigenous person that you work with, that you share office space with, that you do projects with.

Which leads us to what cultural safety is. Cultural safety means an environment which is spiritually, socially, and emotionally safe. So what that means is I feel culturally safe that I can be myself. And we'll have a little yarn about ways you could do that in your projects and working environment. It's good to recognize that perspective that the way we view the world, is important.

So for me, these are just some things that I've talked about, what good cultural safety looks like here at IDA. So for me, because I feel so culturally safe, I very much speak more language here. The first time I'm nearly 40 that I feel like I can just talk my language in this office. Some of these times the coworkers here have to tell me that I'm actually speaking too much language. I need to start telling them what I'm speaking so they can come along in the conversation with me.

So that's how far it's probably, I'm maybe feeling too culturally safe at IDA, but I get to speak my language. I get to talk, I'll talk about my country. I will send out regular emails about , you know, dream time stories and about, uh, funeral practices, and I'll bring coworkers along because I feel that my knowledge and who I am is respected and actually people are interested to wanting to know that. So feeling comfortable, that's what good cultural safety is. Something that we do at IDA is, um, the, the indigenous word for spirit is Goordi, and before all of our staff meetings, we do a five minute Goordi check, which is checking in on your spirit. And the concept is, um, the whole thing of mob when we sit around a fire together and we are sharing space, and that doesn't mean we're necessary talking, but we're sharing space around a fire. And with just being with each other. For me, the Goordi check in a staff setting was us going around the room just checking on how we're traveling.

If you are, you know, feeling tired or if you are happy or feeling productive, you're excited about stuff that's up and coming. But it's not a space to respond to that. It's literally a safe space to just say how you're feeling. So just going around the room, doing a check in to say, how we're going, but it's all about creating that bond as a staff. That we're one mob, that we're one tribe, and, and creating a bit of a safe space for everyone really, but without any needing to respond.

So that's something we do at every staff meeting and, things like, we make sure that all of our offices have photos and paintings of country that we are from. So that any indigenous person from the desert space that we work with, when they walk in the door, they automatically maybe see a photo that they know, or a country that they understand or a painting that they know the person that's painted it. When you walk into the building and you see people that look like you, when you see country that you know, you automatically feel your Goordi, your spirit feels a lot more welcomed. So we've spent a lot of time, I've spent a lot of time in IDA office with Shelly our comms going through photos, different country, make sure everything that we have in this place of indigenous source comes from country that we work with, that every staff member in the office here can talk to every single painting and every single photo and tell them where it's from.

So we work really hard at creating a safe space for our Desert Rangers when they come into the city. How we can create it? So some ways that you can create it within your project or within your staff is if you have good relationships with indigenous staff members without putting pressure on them, but are creating the safe space that if they would like to step forward and work with you to create a culturally safe environment for themselves and local mob. The same if you are working with indigenous people and projects. Having that conversation with your indigenous coworkers, if they are comfortable and if they don't feel pressured, they would like to share. And you'll create a safe space where they can talk about ways of making a project or the workspace that they're in culturally safe and if they do want to step in that space and do that leading, that's fantastic.

If they don't, there's other ways you can create it, by creating a community way into the organization. With some really good community engagement, having a group of the community to say, How can we make this place? How can we make this project more comfortable and more yours? Tell us in a safe place, in a safe space, how we can make this work, this organization and this project feel like something that you belong to and own. And just even the fact that you're asked a question in a really respectful, safe way would make the people that you are working with go, Wow, these guys are listening and they want our input to make it ours. That's fantastic.

There's also really great consulting indigenous people that work around that may already be in this profession where they're offering ways, they come into organizational projects to create safe spaces.

Organizations, especially ones that work in our space, in the desert space, some of them will make it compulsory to have really good cultural awareness training, and if they work with the community and say to the community, and if it's organizations that are just starting that road, Hey, we really wanna engage with you and connect with you the right way. Can you come in and do cultural awareness with our staff? Can we make this a formalized thing? I always encourage that organizations should have it as part of their strategic plan, as part of induction for new staff. So that's where the local indigenous group or community would come in and then present good cultural training to new staff and talk to them. So before they go out on country, they have to go through a cultural awareness training, so that they feel a bit more comfortable going out there. So those small things aren't missed.

I always suggest to people to go to local community events and groups. So say to staff, go to like National Australian Indigenous Day of Celebration, or NAIDOC week. Go to local communities, special events, go to those free community events and just immerse yourself in the community that you're working with in a non-professional sense, and just observing and, and being around the community in a non-professional sense. You also get a good picture of people in maybe a very culturally safe space. And you get to see that.

I say to people, if you're gonna go anywhere in a community or project, especially with desert mob, mirror someone who's around about the same age as you. So we're taught to, fill space and keep talking and yarning, but desert Mob, we hold silence really well. We'll sit around a fire, we'll not talk for hours, but we are still together. And I often say to people that could come out to the community, you know, a good hot tip is to put your eyes on someone who's the same age as you, same gender, and you know, you mirror those behaviors, the way that someone maybe talks to you. Indigenous person steps back because you may be in their space. You, you know, you hold your ground. I've been out with very eager and excited lawyers out on community and they're very excited to be on country and they want to be close to indigenous people. It's sometimes a little bit too close. And so suddenly you see this very excited lawyer going in closely to the indigenous person, and indigenous person going, Whoa. And they're stepping back and the person's going in, and then that indigenous person talking less and that person talking more to fill the space.

And so I'm like, No, no, no, no. You've gotta mirror how they're behaving because that's what feels comfortable with them, and you mirror that. So in some ways it's about even changing the behaviors that you are used to. And recognizing that if you want to connect with another person who's a little bit different from you, maybe you need to adopt what they're doing in a little way. You know, not never mimic or try and speak like them, but behavior. Just as human beings, we connect with each other when we feel comfortable, when we mirror each other. So, I said to that young girl, I know you're really excited. I really get it. I think they really get you're really excited to be here as well. But if you wanna connect with them, maybe, you know, you be excited and, and you know, don't try and ask too many questions. You know, create a safe space again, back to create a culturally safe space so that they can fill it with stuff they wanna tell you, they can fill it with themselves, and then you get to bond that way.

And that's the first start. Because once you feel culturally safe and welcomed and you're acknowledged and respected going forward in terms of community engagement and projects, and working relationships is just a natural flow on from there. And that tends to be missed sometimes, that creating that cultural safe space. Suddenly there's an assumption that community engagement just naturally happen, but you really need that trust first.

I'm constantly yarning with mob that come in and say, you know, You know, do you feel okay? You feel valued, you feel right here, your Goordi feels good here? Or do you, you know, do you want something different or do you want something that even all of our books and our resources, so even basic things like magazines in the front foyer of your organization, um, all of our bookshelves are stopped with purely only stuff that are related to our desert. Stuff that's helpful. So if any visitor that walks into IDA and they go to our coffee table, they go to our bookshelf, or they get a book from Lindsay's room, they're all part of who we are. And this is that whole branding. You're branding the organization. So, you know, thinking about those things, what type of merchandise you have around, what type of books you have, so, you're hinting not only people that are coming in, external stakeholders, but also indigenous people coming in, going, Wow, these guys really know our mob, they really understand where we're from.

The front office is the person that greets all the people that you deal with, are they culturally trained? Do they understand the language? Do they understand the protocols of behavior? Do they understand the concept of shame? The way indigenous people can get quite shamed or shy? It's important. So that front desk person is actually the most important person in the building actually before anything, anyone else. And the community engagement officer, who's the first person that makes contact with indigenous groups is the most important person, and they should be totally trained up and supported in understanding the people that they're working with. They should be reaching out and talking to the people that maybe have a lot of long term experience with the groups that you're working with. They should be knowledgeable. They should be the go-to person. This is the front secretary who might be a junior admin who's only 18 years old, or they're highly experienced community engagement lawyer that's going out for environmental projects.

They should be the most qualified person in the organization because they are the first person that indigenous people see. And that gets forgotten. You could have the most highly qualified person go out, but if they don't know the mob that they're talking to, they haven't done their homework, they haven't understood about behavior, cultural behaviors or how we interact. Small things like culturally staring at someone, looking them in the eye quite a long time is something that's not appropriate for me when I go back to community. When I go to remote community like Warburton or Kirra Kirra and I'm engaging with Desert Mob, that way I'm not looking at them in the eye because culturally that means a sign of disrespect.

But obviously in mainstream Australia, looking someone in their eyes is a show of respect for them. But for me, the more I avert my eyes is showing them respect. The way we shake hands. Uh, if it's mourning or for respect, it's a very light handshake because that's a show of respect for mourning. But again, mainstream Australia, you hear the saying "firm or strong handshake"? Oh, I often hear people say, Oh, if a guy doesn't shake my hand in a strong way. He's a guy I can't trust. Now Aboriginal people don't do that. That's the opposite. We have very gentle handshakes as a sign of respect. Try and engage from the way of the indigenous perspective and you'll get a lot further along. And also you show respect to mob when it's done genuinely with intent, that you've made the effort to understand our viewpoint. And that means a lot. You earn a lot of respect.

We had a session, a workshop session, here actually it was here in Perth and we brought in , ranger groups. So it was quite a mixed bag, different groups from WA coming together for two-way science and, we had a brand new ranger coordinator who started very respectful guy. Second day on the job , and he happened to come to our workshop and, every time he got up and spoke, very respectful, he kept saying, um, as, as a white man, I'd like to say this, where as a white fellow, I'd like to say this.

So every time he spoke, he'd he say it at the beginning of that. And then I had my Auntie Daisy call me aside at the end of the day or halfway through the day. She's like, " that man who that keep talking all the time. Why are he gotta keep saying he's a white fella? We can see his face. He got a white face and she kept saying, Is he telling us that because he think we can't see, Like I, I, I don't got my glasses on, but can you tell him, we can see that he got a white face. We can see that". And for her and for the old ladies that were there, they couldn't understand why a non-indigenous person was standing up and constantly saying that he was a white fella.

From his perspective, he was trying to be respectful and acknowledge that maybe this is a space that he feels privileged to be a part of. So his way of being respectful, showing, you know, as a white fellow, I come from this perspective and I, you know, feel like I need to be respectful. So it's very funny and I actually had to go and tell the guy that was speaking Look, hey, I know, I know that you're trying to be respectful and, and honor that space that you're in, but these ladies just wanna let you know that they know that you are a white man. They get it. They, they get it. They want us tell you that they've seen it. So maybe just don't say it as much every time.

What I say to people, especially in our space, professional and personal lines aren't as strongly defined with indigenous mob. When we see a coworker or a person from an organization come out to community , it's important to sort of connect with indigenous people in the personal level. So for me, I always say to our coworkers you know, yarn about if you are the oldest person in your family, yarn about if you're a grandfather, talk about what country you've come from, where you grew up. Because for indigenous people, that's how they can connect with you. They can recognize, Oh, he's a grandfather like me. I can relate to him in this way because it's very important for desert Mob to know where you fit in in our social network because that dictates how we behave to you, how we interact with you, whether or not we just need to look after you, whether or not we need to get someone else look after you, what level, status and respect you'd have in the community based on where you are in your family network. So, It might seem uncomfortable for some of co of workers that go out to the desert space suddenly, you know, having to open up about their personal life, about, whether or not they're a mother of two kids, or whether not they're a grandmother, but it's very important because for indigenous people, we need to know how to relate with you. We need to know where to put you into our social network. We need to know whether or not you're a sister or an auntie that we need to respect and, and sharing about where you grew up. If you grew up around the ocean somewhere in England or wherever, and then someone who lives near the ocean in Australia, they're like, Oh, he's an ocean man like me. We grew up near the ocean and there's a natural bond there already. So we need to find a connection to you. And the only way we can do that is finding how we connect with you as a person. And then from there you can start the work that you're meant to do with us. And then from there you build the relationship, and then obviously the project goals become more successful.

And this is where creating that space is really important because, it will be filled if Aboriginal people or indigenous people feel that the safe space has been created. We're respected. We will fill it, we will step into that space. We will be more ourselves. Um, and then you will get that real connection and a real relationship building to happen, which is what we need in this space with environmental projects and indigenous land management.

It's important because we all equally want to look after the environment. It's important for everyone. But that's where it's got to happen because it is a different worldview and different perspective.

Ariadne: What a wonderful story from Sam. She's shared so generously with us, and I really love this story, that she told about the fella that went into the community and being so enthusiastic and wanting to help and show respect by sharing his observations from his own lived experience and how important it is for us to be mindful of what we bring to the spaces. And how our own perspectives and world views are not always shared by others. And then when we're in community, it's so important to observe and listen for cultural cues, and we really need to be mindful of what others need to feel spiritually, culturally, and emotionally safe. What others need and what we need is not always the same. And understanding and celebrating these differences is what's gonna enable us to be able to really collaborate well together.

Kirsty: Yeah, that really resonated with me too. I know for myself, I always have to be really careful about how much space I leave in a conversation. I grew up in a culture that showed enthusiasm and interest in a conversation by leaving a really short gap, jumping in, and almost talking over the top of each other, showed that you were really passionate and enthused by the conversation you were having with someone. But so many communities, particularly indigenous communities, leave that space between people speaking because that shows that you're thinking deeply about what they're saying and how respectful you are and you just have to remember that sometimes you're trying to say something and that's not necessarily what the other people hear. So that point that you're making about being really mindful of cultural cues is so, so important when you're in community.

One of the other things that Sam said that really resonated with me, was her point about if a person doesn't have to spend time splitting their energy between being two different types of people, that gives them more energy to put into home and work as well. And that's a huge benefit for the person, but also the workplace as well. Because there are so many studies that show us the increasing workplace diversity is really important in lots of different ways. Companies with diversity and management have better financial returns. Teams with diversity are shown to think smarter, because their discussions challenge stale thinking, and it forces the people in the group to process information more carefully, and that ends up sharpening their performance. But people really do need to feel culturally safe in order to be able to give those authentically diverse viewpoints.

And just one last observation that I'd add is that, It's important to think not only about what's in your workplace when you're trying to make it culturally safe, but also to reflect on what might be missing. So you can look around and say, Do I have local artwork? Do I have indigenous publications? But you might also start to think about, do I actually hear the indigenous people in my workplace use their language? Maybe that's something that's missing, and maybe that is something you can think about. Is my space really as safe and welcoming as I think it is?

Ariadne: Thank you for your time and attention today. If you're interested in hearing more inspiring stories with us, we'd love to have you. So please do subscribe to the Ampliseed podcast series, or head over to our website to learn more.

We'd like to close with a special thank you to the BHP Foundation whose support makes this work possible. And for our next episode, we will share Zilanie's story. Zilanie is a wildlife crime warrior in Malawi who will share with us her experiences in building a community and a movement towards a just and sustainable future.