Ellen DeGeneres and Michelle discuss the role fear plays in their lives—why it’s important, the people who would weaponize it, and ways to turn the things that terrify you into rocket fuel. Michelle also tells the story of being forced to decide whether her husband would run for president and the time that inviting a Star Wars character to the White House ended up scarring one of her daughters. Plus, a special lesson on “starting kind.”

Find the episode transcript here: audible.com/tlp/episode4

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