This podcast is a discussion with Dr. Robert Frager. Dr. Frager received his doctorate in Social Psychology from Harvard University in 1967. While studying there he conducted research in Japan, studying Aikido with the founder of this martial art. He is the co-author of the textbook Personality and Personal Growth and is the author of many books on Sufi Psychology and Wisdom. In 1975 Dr. Frager co-founded the Institute of Transpersonal psychology (now Sofia University) with Dr. James Fadiman. This was the first institute of higher education devoted exclusively to teaching transpersonal psychology. Here Dr. Frager shares his memories, thoughts, and insights on the evolution of transpersonal psychology as a discipline and the development of the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology. This podcast has been adapted from an interview conducted in May 2023 He is interviewed by Dr. John Elfers.