In this episode, regional engagement lead Philippa is joined by principal social worker and former chief social worker for adults, Fran Leddra and Julie Stevens, principal social worker for adults, as they discuss professional standard 6.

Philippa, Fran and Julie share their knowledge of responding to concerns raised by those who may be accessing care and support services, and the ways in which social workers and the people involved can be best supported to resolve issues at a local level.

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Transcript

Philippa

Welcome to This Is Social Work. I’m Philippa, Social Work England's regional engagement lead for the South West of England in this series we're focusing on the professional standards, the 6 standards that social workers must know, understand and be able to do as part of their role. The professional standards are specialist to the social work profession and apply to social workers in all roles and settings across England.

In this episode we're focusing on standard 6, ‘promote ethical practice and report concerns’. We're joined by principal social worker and chief social worker for adults Fran Leddra and Julie Stevens, principal social worker for adults, as they discuss the professional standards and their practice as a social worker. We also discuss their knowledge of responding to concerns raised by those who may be accessing care and support services, and the ways in which social workers and those we work with can be best supported to resolve issues at a local level.

We hope you enjoy this episode.

Hi, welcome everybody. I’m really pleased to join you today to talk about professional standard 6 and I’m joined by a couple of people that are going to introduce themselves, so welcome Fran and welcome Julie. Fran, do you want to introduce yourself first.

Fran

Hi I’m Fran Leddra, I’m the chief social worker at the department of health and social care.

Philippa

Thanks Fran, thanks for being with us today, and Julie?

Julie

Hello, my name's Julie Stevens, I work for Nottingham City council. I’m the team manager for our quality assurance and workforce development team and I’m also the principal social worker for adults.

Philippa

Fabulous, thank you. So, we're here to talk today about professional standard 6 which is ‘promote ethical practice and report concerns’. At Social Work England we've seen a significant increase in fitness to practise referrals and the number we've received is higher than initially projected. Most of our referrals, I think over 70%, come from members of the public and by members of the public we mean people who've had a social worker themselves or have a family member who've had contact with a social worker. Most of the concerns seem to relate to children and family social workers and we're currently closing around 40% of cases at triage, so this would suggest to us that the concerns are either not meeting our criteria or could be addressed locally, either through employers complaints procedures or staff support or development.

The regional engagement team of which I’m part of, work alongside the fitness to practise team in a number of ways and we're currently running some fitness to practise workshops for employers which look at when and what to refer. We quality assure and review fitness to practise decisions and more recently, we've been supporting the triage team acting as professional advisors to consider the concerns raised with us. Much of what we see seems to relate to poor practice and in particular poor communication.

I just wondered whether you know, in light of kind of the increase in referrals that we're having, do you have any thoughts about why we might be receiving a higher number of referrals than the previously kind of, anticipated? What are your thoughts Fran?

Fran

Thank you. I mean that, but that's in some ways not surprising given I suppose the very difficult year that we've had and I suppose we can't really discuss this without the context of the last year and us being in a pandemic but of course you know, it's, it's concerning. In some ways you want the public, don't you, to be able to reach out to Social Work England and to be able to say when they think things aren't right. In other ways you're kind, the fact that 40% of those were actually triaged at that point as not being appropriate for, to take forward in Social Work England tends to indicate that there's something else possible in this last year, or we need to look at trends as we go forward, something else has been taking place and possibly that is around local complaints procedures and local responsiveness possibly during the pandemic.

I mean, we know from a BBC report last year that 60% of disabled people said that they felt that their, their care and support had been reduced and that they weren't getting what they need, care centres were closed, normal community touch points were closed, social workers were still out there on the frontline doing visits but some had some, things that had to go online and just, we just know generally that that was an incredibly tough and you know, unprecedented time, not just for the workforce but for people who have, receiving care and support to have to step up and do so much more for their families and their loved ones during that period of time, so it would be really interesting to compare the figures again over the next coming couple of years to see whether that isn't an anomaly or whether or not that is something which you know, is a continued trend. In which case I think you know, we really need to ask ourselves the questions that are local complaint systems responsive enough to, to, when people have concerns and of course Philippa, 60% of those presumably did, have gone forward which again would be really good to see on what kind of grounds and what kind of, some of the issues are, is there any kind of common themes as to what people are reporting on you know, it's worth just thinking what ethical practice is you know it's, it's about that respect, that inherent kind of dignity and worth of a person that the social worker brings to their, to their to their work and, and social workers are there to treat every person in a caring and respected respectful fashion, mindful of their individual cultures, their ethnic diversity, and of course we're there also to promote people's self-determination so if when that falls short and people feel the need to, to raise a concern then absolutely, that must be taken seriously and we have to learn from that.

Philippa

Yeah I think ,I think you raised really good points both of you. I think there's still lots of things that we don't know and, and that's some of the work that we're doing to try and understand those trends and I think you know, we're only in our first 18 months so it'd be interesting to see, like you said Fran, what are those projected trends and what those trends will be over the next coming year and how we align.

Obviously it's really difficult to know, we're in a pandemic, we're not in normal circumstances. I think you raise a really good point about kind of, ethical practice and I think it's interesting that we have a higher proportion of referrals that relate to children and families social workers. You both work in adults, my background is children and families so you know, I was in statutory children and families work for over 20 years before I moved to Social Work England and I think to some extent it perhaps isn't surprising that that's sort of, a sort of disproportionately between adults and children and families because of the work that we do and some of the, how that lends itself but I think there is something about us understanding about why aren't we getting things right, and I think really thinking about that ethical practice and how we can try and work at resolving things locally and so people don't feel that they then need to come to the regulator to raise concerns, and the concerns that they do raise with us are the most serious and the right concerns.

I think what we're seeing a lot, and I think I said that in my, my opening kind of commentary, is that in some of the work that we're seeing at fitness to practise, some of it's more about poor practice and fitness to practise I mean, we know from some initial work we've been doing that we've been seeing about, that one of the themes that comes out is communication and around 25% of the referrals that we get are referring to communication. I mean surely that's something we can do better and improve on, that's not a difficult thing to improve on, so there's definitely some room there, thinking about local resolution.

I mean standard 6.3 talks about informing people of the right to complain and provide them with the support to do it and record and act on concerns raised to me, so it's about really sort of, you know really ensuring about, people are aware of those rights and advocating for those rights and not being you know, sort of worried about people making a complaint. What has been your experience of responding to concerns raised by those who may be accessing care and support services. Fran?

Fran

So the most important thing when people are raising any kind of, any kind of concern is that people feel that they're being listened to and that they are getting a really considered and thorough response. I think it's nothing worse than somebody feeling they, you know, they, they get a two-liner you know, or, in a response or that you know, the various different bits of their complaint haven't been broken down and looked at because that leads to people coming back again and eventually might even need to go into the ombudsman and that you know, it's hugely intensive resource, intensive for everybody and I’m sure for an individual they don't want to complain. I mean, when we, we've been in a really privileged position in the last year I’ve been able to speak to a lot of people with lived experience and you know, people don't want to complain, they want to get on with their lives and have a really good service and you know, be able to get the care and support they need when, when they need it they don't, but they find it exhausting to have to go through long-winded complaints procedures or any other kind of investigation procedure, so I think we have to appreciate that when people get to the point where they put pen to paper, you know, the vast majority of them will be people that have probably tried absolutely everything else first and have got to that end of their tether and, and have written that down so we absolutely must be respectful of that, we have to listen I think we have to be transparent, I think as much as possible we have to be open if we've made mistakes and we have to apologise if we've done so, I think.

Julie

I completely agree with all of that Fran and I think, I think for me there's something about us trying really, really hard like you say, to be very open and transparent with people from the very beginning and trying to deal with any kind of sense that somebody's dissatisfied with what's happening or is unhappy trying to deal with that at the earliest possible opportunity really, so that, so you prevent the person getting to the point where they feel that they've got to complain and because, like you say you know, once the person's reached that point what often that, that you know, my experience has been that's quite traumatising for the individual you know, because that means like you say they've tried everything else to get there, to get their voice heard, to get their, their concerns heard and haven't had a satisfactory outcome and, and by that point that's quite often gone on for quite a long time for that person as well so I think it's about being very, very clear with people from the beginning about what the outcome is that they're looking to achieve and about being very honest about, as you say, where, where we've got things wrong, letting them reflect with us on where we've got things wrong but also what did work for them and what they were happy about and, but then also I think as you say, it's learning the lessons from that so that the person goes away feeling assured because you know, quite often when you've got to the point where somebody's had to go through, as you say, putting pen to paper and going through a formal complaint and then sometimes going to the ombudsman, the whole issue then is not just about how you resolve that complaint but it's how you build trust with that person if that person is continuing to receive services, that's really difficult and really challenging then so I think you know, my constant view is to try and address things as early as we possibly can do and to prevent really at getting to that point but then like you say, then we've really got to take notice of what that individual's experience has been.

Philippa

Thank you both of you. I think that, I think that's really important isn't it, about what can we do earlier on and that listening you know, the fact that you know, when I was a manager you know, obviously no one likes to have a complaint about their practice or their social worker that you're managing’s practice. You know, it can be quite difficult to hear some of that kind of, challenge or criticism but I think there's always for me, often lessons to be learned and that point of reflection and could we have done things differently, do you know what I mean, and often I think we could have, do you know what I mean, and some, you know, sometimes there was a sense that we perhaps didn't do it as well as we should have, so there were lessons to be learned.

I mean standard 6.4 talks about taking appropriate action when a professional's practice may be impaired so kind of, thinking very much perhaps from kind of, an employer's position, how in your view can we best support social workers and those we work with to resolve issues at a local level?

Fran

I think making clear that real, strengthening the supervisor's involvement regarding social work so you know, there is something for me about that again, that trusting relationship whereby if somebody has got you know, has got something that they need to share but they feel confident and safe enough to share that earlier on rather than later, I mean it's very clear when you go on and renew your registration, there is no doubt that you have to sign something that declares that you've got nothing that's you know, that there isn't anything there that has changed since last time, that you haven't got any new criminal convictions or you haven't got anything that you think that you should declare, so it's very clear in terms of your own personal responsibility but if there are things that you are at all unsure about throughout the year journey leading up to that re-registration, and good supervision and support from your employer is really, really important so you can talk about that

And vice versa as well, it's very important also that the social worker is able to reflect back also on where it falls short, where they think things as standards are falling short too so it's a two-way kind of conversation, but in terms of being very clear and open and transparent and honest about anything you feel has changed significantly enough that it might affect your registration I think, you know, that is a personal responsibility and one if given the right support it's quite clear that we should be declaring those issues.

Julie

I agree with everything that you've just spoken about there and Fran I think, I think supervision is really important. I think making sure that you continuously keep that culture of reflective discussion and learning going on with it, within teams and for individuals and I think, I certainly think that that's been a challenge for people in the last year and, and that has been challenged by the fact that you know, most people have been working from home and it's much more difficult to have some of those conversations that you would have had when you were sat next to somebody in, in a you know, in an office environment and things but I think that, that that's really important that you have that reflective practice and I think you know, as for social workers it's that encouragement that, about not being punitive towards people but that idea that you're constantly learning, you're constantly reflecting and you can always think about even when things have gone really well, you can always think about how things would be better and I think as well the thing, one of the things that I was thinking about with that is it's about ensuring as well that you have that clarity for the people that we're working with around what you can achieve as an outcome for that individual, so you know, talking to that person about what it is that they want when they're first having contact with adult social care but then like we've talked about, and I think it's been mentioned several times now, that transparency and honesty, about what can be achieved what, what the potential issues and difficulties might be for achieving what that individual wants so you already start up that conversation from the beginning really of, of acting with integrity and honesty with the individual and, and I think you're completely right about the fact that you know, that there is no way that people cannot understand their responsibilities and for reporting if there's any concerns about their practice because it is absolutely clear and, and I think that you know, that that's something again as well which supervisors and team managers are also very, very clear about but yeah, I, for me it's about making sure that we, we have that culture of open learning with people all the time and reflection because nobody gets it right all of the time, there isn't a social worker out there who's you know, gets absolutely everything right, perfect every single time you know, there's so many different factors isn't there, that you, that happen when we're working with people that you need to constantly always be mindful of.

Fran

And just to add really, that standard 6 and 6.7 isn't just looking at where you know, where some responsibility is something that's happened criminally throughout the year or whatever, this is very much about physical and mental health issues as well and that includes those caused by stress of course and what we know is, is that social workers have had an absolutely awful stressful year and many will be coming out the pandemic needing a lot of support, so making sure that that support is available so that people don't get to the breaking point, where in any way this impairs their practice is, is absolutely essential.

Philippa

I think that that's really important but sort of, I think the, the emphasis on good supervision can't be underestimated here can it? Good supervision would be where between you and the manager, there would be those conversations about your practice. It should be that conversation where if there's any kind of concern about your practice, it's absolutely being discussed at supervision so nothing should come as a surprise to a social worker in some respects and it's about that relationship isn't it, and also you know, if we're, if we're able to kind of uphold the, the professional standards that I think that we all sign up to as registered social workers, if we're adhering to those, in many ways you're practising in the way that you should be and that need for someone to complain about your practice should be lessened to some extent and, and about how we try and reduce the kind of, risk of things being escalated to the regulator is absolutely about making sure that any concerns around practice are dealt with in a really timely way at that kind of supervisor level.

Do you, as both of you and your roles as principal social workers and in particular Fran maybe in that having that fortuitous oversight in your chief social worker role, how do you see that being played out you know, in practice really. Do you see that things are being picked up and dealt with?

Fran

We've heard of some really good local initiatives and also of course there's a lot of national support as well. If you go on the DHSC website you can find a huge amount of support, you can reach out if you're suffering from stress or you know, people are talking about that kind of secondary trauma that some social workers may, may well be experiencing, some local authorities are putting on their own sessions for staff, specifically most local authorities will have things in place for, for people like employer assistance programs.

We've got to also be very mindful of that lots of social workers work independently, they work in other sectors you know, it's a bit about them reaching out should they need it so that, so for those independent social workers that are possibly struggling at any point and we just say you know, do reach out, reach out either to your professional register or, or maybe to somebody locally that you know or to a peer to sort of say that you're struggling a bit because there is plenty of help and support out there if you need it at the moment, and I think there's been some excellent practice across the country in terms of trying to support social workers going forward and it's something that we are talking about at the chief social work office, about how we might do something more nationally about this and we certainly had discussions with BASW about that too.

Philippa

Yeah, what about you Julie, from a local authority perspective?

Julie

Obviously just talking about my local authority, our management teams and our senior management team have been mindful from the beginning of lockdown of the additional support that people require as a result of the impact of the restrictions because of COVID lockdowns, but also the impact of the changing way of having to work with people and so there's been a lot of support on offer for that and I think we're also very mindful, as Fran mentioned, about what, what the impact is going to be for people as we, as we open up to business as usual and the, the sort of like, the potential trauma that people have experienced and I think, you know, that there's a big body of thought that actually it's as people come out of that situation and get that that we're going to see more and more of that trauma and you know, that those difficulties and issues that people have experienced, and I think it is, it's really important as you were talking about, for those people that aren't employed by a local authority, about ensuring from day one where they can get their support from as well and, but certainly within the local authority there's been a lot of thought given to that and I think you know, we go back again to you know, the importance of that supervisory relationship within our local authority, that's something that we've been talking about a lot more but then we've also been looking at other ways so that people can get support as well.

Philippa

Thanks Julie, thanks Fran.

It's really important isn't it, that we know the sector has experienced a really challenging time not only in people's professional lives but also personally you know, they've been working from home, some have had caring responsibilities you know, children being not at school, work you know, home teaching, lots of other kind of challenges that have come, have been there for the sector.

I know that some people may have anxiety talking about how that's affected them and worry that that may you know, does that have a fitness to practise sort of, kind of impact for them and I think you know, Social Work England are really clear that in terms of you know, any health concerns, as it's about accessing support and that health being managed, so it's really important therefore that you know, wherever you're working, however you're practising, whether it's in the statutory sector, independently or the third sector, or in academia, that you are able to have that insight and recognise that you may be struggling at that time, and you can access that support and that you've got strategies in place to support you and that then doesn't lend itself to being a fitness to practise concern. The concerns are when that support is, is not forthcoming or you're not talking about needing that support and your situation may kind of escalate or deteriorate, and we wouldn't want anyone to feel that they're in that position.

And moving on to sort of, standard 6.6 which kind of feeds into some of what you've already been saying Fran, is about declaring to the appropriate authority and Social Work England anything that might affect my ability to do my job competently or may affect my fitness to practise or if I’m subject to criminal proceedings or a regulatory finding is made against me anywhere in the world. I mean, we've, you've already covered it really a little bit Fran but you know, as social workers we must make safe and effective practice declarations when we apply to the register and we all restore our registration or renew our registration and as registered social workers, we're expected to meet and uphold the professional standards and obviously we must notify the regulator of anything that may affect our ability to practice safe and effectively. How do you ensure you're meeting the professional standards in your practice as social workers?

Julie

I think one of the things that's really useful is keeping up with your CPD recording and, because I think if you're keeping up with that you're reflecting on the work that you're doing and I think it's a constant reminder then about what the standards are so I think that that's, that's one way of doing that so I think you know, I think some of us are a bit lastminute.com aren't we with stuff but I think trying to kind of, of, give that consistent message about actually if you do it regularly, it, it's a, it's another way of reflecting and it's another way of thinking about those standards all the time.

I think it's important that that within, within authorities as well that we, we have a culture of ethical practice as well so that you're working within that dynamic where you're constantly thinking about ethical dilemmas, practice, decision making and things so I think you know, we've, we've talked about it a lot already because you know, it's a, it's a circle isn't it, that you're constantly going through and the cycle of, of that supervision, that reflective discussion but I think also having an, a constant kind of open discussion and a learning culture where people don't feel you know, that there's, there's a culture of blame happening to them, so ensuring as managers and as supervisors that that we're making sure that, that people do feel that they can have those open discussions, that there is a safe space to say things and and you know to say them in a way where they're not constantly concerned about you know, how that, how that's going to be received so you know that, that supervision and those sort of like, peer supports as well, so yeah I,  but I would say to people that regular CPD recording is a big help because it just constantly refreshes you.

Fran

I would agree with everything that Julie said about the CPD recording. I also think it's not just about what we record in terms of formal CPD, I think it's about our constant reflection and as well as this role I’m still principal social worker and a head of adult social care council and I, you know, I’m still very, I’m very mindful of practice and I’m very mindful so that every now and again, I want to do a bit of practice myself and I do still do some you know, direct social work practice alongside the teams and actually I think really importantly it's a bit about also doing that peer support and, and constantly reflecting off of other people in terms of that kind of, peer challenge sometimes.

I love having students, I always think students always come in and our, our newly qualified social workers as well, they come in so fresh from that learning and so fresh from the standards and, and can really challenge us and start saying ‘why are you doing that like that?’ you know, ‘why are we not doing it the way, the way we've just learned that it should be done?’ because we can fall into bad habits and so I think that whole learning culture within an organisation is really important, and I would say leaders have a really strong part to play in that and making sure, and that principal social workers up and down the country I know excel at this, in making sure that you know, that real kind of discussion, reflection is going on within the local authorities and so that everybody's continuing learning, but just to say that that has again been a huge challenge the last year, there's no doubt about it you know, we are hearing people saying that even their student experiences have been obviously very, very different and our practice educators have been struggling about really stepping up to do the absolutely best that they can in those circumstances. So I always say you know, shout out about what you're really good at but be really honest and take responsibility when you get things, when you get things wrong.

Philippa

Thanks both. Yeah I think I would echo what both of you said in terms of for me you know, the opportunity to reflect you know, I think I’m always learning as a social worker and you know, sort of having that kind of time I think being able to kind of, sort of make time, which I know I’m not you know, I’m a frontline social worker anymore so I appreciate I’ve you know, my time is used differently and people are under huge pressure but actually you know, I wouldn't be the social worker I was if I wasn't reading, if I wasn't having conversations with my peers, if I wasn't sometimes getting things wrong and reflecting and making you know, ensuring that I was doing things better, and I think in terms of sort of ensuring that, I’m kind of adhering to those professional standards, it's checking isn't it and I mean, also getting that feedback I think, hearing and listening to people with lived experience and hearing from them about their experience and ensuring that we're hearing that, listening and responding to it is absolutely the way that we can ensure that we're meeting the professional standards, and I’m really pleased that that's in our, kind of, standard 4 around CPD you know, that it kind of really reiterates that need to hear from people with lived experience because I think ultimately if we don't listen to people, with that, we're never going to improve because having, although having a complaint, and going back to the complaints of it right at the beginning where we started, by hearing from people who, where we may have got things wrong and learning from that and I’m all for more of a kind of, appreciative inquiry approach and I think you raised it Julie, about you know, trying to avoid that blame culture and really looking at kind of, the strength based learning and what you know, what could we do differently, I think that's really positive in, in ensuring that we are then adhering to our professional standards.

I think the past year has been a challenge about ethical practice Fran hasn't it, and I know it's bought in you know, the Department of Health and Social Care and principal social workers you know, put forward the kind of ethical framework and some guidance for us as practitioners, and I think you know, there were some times you know, especially in those very early days of the pandemic, when people were feeling quite anxious about their practice you know, we know that people were worried about decisions that were being taken in kind of, you know, very challenging circumstances but I think again it feeds back to that, those conversations you have in supervision or have with your peers, how you document your workings, your defens-, that defensible decision making kind of process isn't it and about really ensuring that you're having those conversations and checking out what you're thinking of doing.

Is there anything any one of you wanted to kind of, add to that or anything else you wanted to say?

Julie

Just picking up on the on the point that Fran made around newly qualified social workers and I think certainly our, our local universities in my area have already been raising that, some of the, the newly qualified social workers that are going to be finishing university and that some of their, no fault of anyone, but because of lockdown and because of the opportunities within their placements and the restricted opportunities, and that people are going to be coming out of university potentially with gaps in, in their kind of, learning and knowledge and I know that other local authorities in my local area as well, I’ve already started kind of thinking about that from the perspective of the ASYE programmes that we that we run, so I think that would be a message for me and for newly qualified social workers you know, certainly raise any concerns that you've got about that as part of your local ASYE programme with your local authority and things as well, and because it's really important that we look at that for people and recognise the challenges that students have experienced in the last 12 months as well.

Philippa

Thanks Julie. Fran, did you have anything you wanted to add?

Fran

I think you're point about the ethical framework is a good one in that that's still there and that's still very much there for, for practitioners to use, to help guide, guide them through and even outside of the pandemic is a good kind of reminder of people who you know, because that's what this standard is all about, it's all about good ethical practice and that does take you through very, you know, methodically the various different elements of that that you need to consider when you're doing work with people, and the only other thing I would just say is that all social workers you know, all registered search workers need to take responsibility for how they, you know, how they practice, how they report up to yourselves and really know these standards, so don't just pay lip service to them, I don't, just when one pops up you know, really wouldn't be great. It's great if you know, we, if I was to ask you as a social worker, ‘what are the professional standards?’ would you be able to give me an idea of what they are, and I think that's a really good test, and not obviously every single little detail, minute detail of each one but just the top lines and it's really important I think, to get to know them and really own them and because, I think, it makes us very proud of our profession and we will create those really high standards that we want for ourselves and for the people that we offer care and support to.

Philippa

Thanks Fran. So just by way of an ending really I just wondered whether we've got any kind of top tips or advice for social workers, so what is the most important thing you'd like people listening to take away from this discussion that we've had today?

Julie

I think the key thing is coming back to one of the things that you, you spoke about at the beginning and was, was, it's around communication you know, that's the key skill that we have isn't it and that that in, in kind of, communicating with people and being open transparent and building those trusting relationships, you know, and communicating with people around what their expectations are and what they, what they want from us and yeah I, I just think that communication is the key thing and, and that's something I think you said earlier about, as a social worker you're constantly learning and I think that is the key thing that we learn about every single day isn't it, if we reflect on our communication with people there's always something where you think ‘oh, well that worked in that situation with that person, but actually I’d like to do that slightly differently thinking about it’ and I think, I think recognising you know, all of those different ways in which you can communicate with people and understanding what it is that that they need to take from, from that communication and their perspective and things, I just think that communication is so important.

You know, the other thing that we've really talked about is, is that reflection and all of those opportunities that we have to reflect. Everyone's so busy but that is just absolutely essential that you're constantly able to reflect on what you're doing.

Fran

Yeah, I agree with that Julie. I think reflection, continual professional development, continued learning in the broader sense, having that confidence but also having that consideration, but when you need help and support you go and get it, and that you are able to be very open and honest and transparent when you need to be. You know, social work isn't an easy job it's a, it can be incredibly difficult and incredibly challenging but it's hugely, can be hugely rewarding and every single day we see social workers up and down the country making a real difference to the lives of people, and really having a huge impact, doing absolutely excellent work and so I think just hang on to the fact that you know, we're very proud of our profession, we really want to give our best and to do that, we really do need to ensure that we continually professional development and we, we remain as registered professionals in the absolute proper sense of the word, in that we understand what those principles are and we understand what those standards are and we make sure, as much as we can, that we can always you know, really adhere to them and, and be able to confidently say that we are very good social workers.

Philippa

What a great point to end on. Thank you so much both of you. Thanks Julie, thanks Fran.

Thanks again to Fran and Julie for joining us and sharing their experiences and understanding of standard 6. we hope you've enjoyed listening and that you've been able to take away something from the variety of topics covered that will help to inform and improve your own practice.

If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us, you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisIsSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts. You can also visit our website socialworkengland.org.uk to find out more about the professional standards and the social work profession.

Thanks again and see you soon.