What makes good communication? What needs to be considered? How does english as a second language affect communication? Bernie Kelly of "A Journey with Bernie" discusses his experiences.

Episode Notes We have met so many wonderful people in the last 18 episodes. After going back and looking at what I have learnt I thought that I would bring the best bits together. I only got up to episode 7. So here is the first episode of Reflections.

Living with disability in a regional area of Australia comes with some extra challenges. From the lack of services to transport life is different to those who live in the city. Jaceen Ross discusses her experiences of living with disability in regional Queensland.

Episode Notes Alyce Carter-Edwards is hearing impaired lady who teaches us about the challenges of being hairing impaired.

Nik Cree has run businesses for many years. His current work involves digital marketing and web development. Nik and Narelle discuss the ways that business and people with disability can work together to improve digital accessibility for everyone.

Ever wondered what is required by employers to be a position to employee people with disability? What does a person with disability need to do to be more employable? What are the needs of each and what steps need to be taken to be more inclusive. Rebbecca Jurkiewicz from Chapter One Disability Employment Services talks everything about disability employment services.

How do people with vision impairment navigate? How do they find the shop or the house or other business? They use maps on their phones just like everyone. However, there are some more apps being released that will assist everyone. these apps are based on way finding techniques. Lucy is the usability design lead for one of these apps.

Episode Notes Laura Garcia and her husband welcomed their baby girl, Eva, into the world 12 years ago. While Eva was a baby she became sick and developed a condition called cortical visual impairment. CVI for short. Eva's eyes work however the illness caused an issue in the cortico-visual area of her brain. So Eva is blind. Eva has been the face of Braille House in Queensland loves reading and playing sport. How does she do it. Assistive technology of course. Hear Laura and Eva's story this week on our podcast.

Episode Notes Amber and her husband, Jed, welcomed a baby boy into the world 3 years ago. His name is Hugo. Hugo is ASD level 3 and non-verbal. The journey that they are on as a family is a long journey with many challenges. Hear about their journey.

Episode Notes Patrick Dillon went for a swim to cool off in the Dawson River. His life changed forever. Listen to Patrick's journey. He talks about the assistive technology tools that give him independence. An awesome chat.

Episode Notes Meryl Evans was born profoundly deaf. She is a professional speaker, and trainer, accessibility marketing consultant and all round nice lady. What is accessibility for Meryl.

Episode Notes Mary Wong started out as a nurse. She is now an published author, business and leadership coach. What lessons did she learn as she went on this journey. What is the way that mary incorporates accessibility into her work.

Episode Notes Ever thought about how the changes in technology have benefited people with disability. the world changes quickly and the benefits can be great. Mark Muscat discusses his journey with vision impairment and how the changes in technology have made a diference in his life. This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Episode Notes [Music] [Narelle] Hello and welcome to, I think it's episode six of The Digital Access Show. Today's guest is someone I've been wanting to interview for a while. I met her through a networking group called BX and the way Grace tackles life head-on, and with a laugh is just such she's a great person for me to follow in the way she manages life. I'd like to introduce you all to Grace Cameron. Grace is the director and owner of Sunlight Bookkeeping, but I'm going to let Grace tell you a little bit about, Grace and Grace's story. Hi Grace, thanks for being here. [Grace] Hi Narelle, Thank you for having me. [Narelle] As I said, I'm excited to have you here. Grace, can you tell me a little bit about yourself. What you do, what Sunlight Bookkeeping is about? [Grace] Well, I suppose I'll go back a little bit from before that because that helps me start. [Narelle] Yep. [Grace] My first career was actually in landscape architecture. I wanted to be a glamorous designer, but I'm actually not very good at design. So in my career as landscape architecture, I did analysis and budgets and construction contracts and numbers. Then I got meningitis in 2010 and developed POTS. So my POTS means that I spend 20 to 23 hours a day lying down. I'm lying down right now, I have the, the screen above me and the camera above me. [Narelle] Thank you Grace, what is POTS? Can you explain? [Grace] Postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. And it's actually becoming more common and it's more of focus on it because a lot of people with long COVID developed POTS. So there's a, new research happening in it, which hopefully will provide some insights and some benefits soon. But essentially, my body doesn't maintain my blood pressure properly. So we have different things that we can do to increase blood pressure and, but my heart has to compensate. My heart has to work harder to keep blood circulating properly around my body. So if I sit up for too long, I get dizzy and I can't think because my brain isn't getting enough oxygen. [Narelle] Okay. [Grace] So [Narelle] So basically, you lie down on most of the time. [Grace] I lie down most of the time and when it first happened, I spent years mostly on my own in my bedroom bored and isolated and just challenged getting through the basic tasks of caring for myself and my family helping to care for me. And eventually getting adequate supports through State Government Funding and then through the NDIS changed, changed a lot for me and I enabled me to go back and retrain and study. I looked at my skills and my interests. I've had an interest in small business for a long time and from landscape architecture, but creative problem-solving, and numbers and analysis. And so I picked bookkeeping because I could do that incorporate all those things and do it lying down. And I started my business and we launched in February, the 1'st of February last year. So where I've just had a birthday. [Narelle] Happy Birthday! [Grace] Thank you. It's been, it's been a fantastic amazing process because it's changed so much for me. I have, I still spend all my time well most of my time lying down but now I have access to the business community through networking and through my clients and through my team members and all these inspiring people in my life. I'm learning so much about different things and it's just a lot more richness and I feel like so much has opened up for me. [Narelle] So, what was the reason, like at that point when you were sitting in your room by yourself? What was that reason that made you change? Was that you didn't like your life at that time? And you said, well, there's got to be something better. Was it, oops, I've got funding now that I can now change my life and make it better? What was it? What was it, was it family? Thank you. Come on, Grace. [Grace] No. I had, I had, CentreLink had me on disability and said that I couldn't work actually and family saying that I couldn't push myself. That that would be too hard and I shouldn't work. But once I had the funding and the extra support, I think I had that pressure relieved from just keeping myself clean and fed and those fundamental tasks that you have to do. And I wanted challenge. I just wanted something more but also I wanted financial security, a long-term interest in my life. I wanted access to things outside. Yeah, and that I think I've always been a little bit of a workaholic. And I think returning to work was probably a natural kind of choice, yeah, idea for me. Just [Narelle] With your journey, so you've taken it in a year from an idea. [Grace] No. [Narelle] To to a complete business. [Grace] What I No, there was quite a bit of preparation before the launch. [Narelle] Okay, yep. [Grace] So it was February 1st I opened for new clients. And I think for a year and a half before that we had been doing some preparation. I've been, been doing some training in small business and had help from a program that helps, Ignite, that helps people with disability start businesses and we created a business plan and I've had some family-friend clients to kind of practice my systems on. So yes. [Narelle] It's still, in a year you've taken this business quite a long way. I mean, I know there was one conference that you were trying to get me to go to and I was like oh, I don't think I can do this. I don't think I can do this. You've done it. And what was your experience at that conference? Because one of my things is, obviously, when I'm at home, I'm in my own space. I'm very confident. It's very able to manage anything. But take me out of a space that I know and I find it much harder. The systems aren't there. The tools aren't there. What about for you? How did you manage the conference? [Grace] It was a bit of a test. I was only an hour from my home. So I had the backup of someone would come and get me and I had to run away if I needed to, but actually it worked really well. It was a bit of planning that was required. I had an electric wheelchair that reclined and the place I was staying was in wheelchair wheeling distance to the, to the conference center that. And the staff at the conference center were fantastic. I wouldn't. That, that couldn't have been planned, but that's the way it turned out. A woman, she told me that because she's short, she's used to not being able to reach things. And recognized that because I was in a chair, I couldn't reach some of the food at the lunch table. So she met me every day and helped me kind of dish a plate up for lunch. And yeah, she came up to me to suggest that. It wasn't. [Narelle] What other accommodations did you make to enable you to attend the conference? Was there much else? [Grace] I had a bit of communication with BX, it was a BX conference, beforehand about just understanding how it would run, was happening between the rooms so that I had an idea. And it wasn't. There wasn't a lot that I had to do differently. I didn't know how I would go out all day in the wheelchair because I had never tried that before. [Narelle] Yeah. [Grace] I've spent all of the time during the talks lying down in the wheelchair. And I didn't attend all of the conference. But I still was able to do more than I had been able to do before having that wheelchair and [Narelle] What about networking? Were you able to network well at the conference? Did the wheelchair inhibit you in any way from networking? [Grace] I don't think the wheelchair inhibited me. I, some of it was sitting down at tables. So I was the same height as people. I found, I met a lot of people that I had already met online and having that relationship already was really lovely to meet them in person. [Narelle] Yep. [Grace] I didn't spend as much time at the conference for networking. I think a lot of the, the evening things I didn't go to. So I was more interested in testing my capacity to attend something that took longer and listening to the speakers. The speakers were amazing and, but I did spend some time networking. [Narelle] So now you've done a conference like that. Do you think you'ld go again? [Grace] Yeah, I think I would. And I'd be more confident doing it further away from home. I, yeah, not, knowing I've done the trial run, I would be able to do it again. [Narelle] Yeah. Because you have to spend most of your time lying on your back, how do you get your clients? You know, do you still, obviously you're not very mobile. So what's the techniques that you use that would be different? Because you can't go to a lunch. Or [Grace] Well, I do go, I do go to some local networking. [Narelle] Yep. [Grace] I don't, yeah, I have some, some upright times that I call it. And I use that sometimes for local networking. I really wanted to connect in, there's online networking as well. But I really wanted to connect into my local community and meet some people face to face. So I do attend some local events. I'm in Ballina, Northern New South Wales. So we have a local networking group called Byron and Beyond. And they've been really supportive. And I've met some great people through that. But most of my clients I've got through, I suppose, introductions. So either I meet one person at a networking event like you and they introduced me to other people that I then meet digitally. [Narelle] Yeah. [Grace] And, yeah. [Narelle] So what do you do differently with your digital equipment with your computers? Do you use anything much different to what the normal person uses? [Grace] Well, I would have said no, but we were talking before and I realized that actually I do. I have a, a breadboard on my lap with an ergonomic keyboard and a trackball mouse sitting on top of my, that's a serving platter actually. [Narelle] That's Assistive Technology tool isn't it? [Grace] It is. And I actually used the, a matching serving platter to help modify the wheelchair. And I've got screens on monitor arms, which means that they can be positioned in a way that works for me, above me. [Narelle] Okay. So basically, if someone was lying on the bed and thinking about it, where you're like, I'm sitting up and looking at my screen, you're lying down and it's above you with arms connected to the monitor to bring it above you. And monitors, that what, connected to the roof or [Grace] No, I've got a, it's a bed desk, that the monitor arms attached to. [Narelle] Yes. So it is something, and you talked about the mouse that was slightly different, you said. [Grace] It's a trackball mouse. So when I used a standard mouse. on my, on my serving platter, if I took my hand off it, the mouse would roll down, down the angle of the, [Narelle] Yeah. [Grace] of the board. And so it would move to the bottom of my screen, which means if you want to then click on something else, you have to move it back up in it. Because yeah, trackball mice, the mouse is still, but there's a ball that rolls. So it doesn't roll if I take my hand off it. [Narelle] And what about the keyboard? You said there was something slightly different with the keyboard. [Grace] It's an ergonomic keyboard and they're designed. So they have an angle in the middle. So half the keys face on one angle and the other half face on the other angle. And that works better with my elbows resting on the couch. [Narelle] So you've really taken tools that are mainstream tool and adjusted them to make it fine for you. [Grace] Yeah, I created my setup on a disability pension before I had, before I had NDIS support. So everything was done on a budget and mostly, except for the trackball mouse, mostly from Kmart. [Narelle] And what about like even the desk itself? It's just the standard desk is it, or? [Grace] The desk came from Kmart. [Narelle] Oh, cool! That's interesting, isn't it? Because people often make assumptions that employing someone with disability requires major modification. [Grace] It's true that the most challenging part has been the ergonomic wedges for my back and for my legs. [Narelle] Yeah. [Grace] So that I don't end up with pressure, pressure pain. But those, again, it was just a little bit of trialing to see what worked for me. And they were not the ones I'm using right now. I think were $60 each, so $120 in total. It's not significant outlay. [Narelle] And your, you work an 8 hour a day. Well, actually, you're on your own, you own the business, you're probably working a lot more than that. [Grace] I do sometimes, but I am totally, limited with my heart. I'm supposed to work four-hour a days. [Narelle] Oh, okay. [Grace] I work. Sorry. [Narelle] You're running a business on four-hours a day. So you're a very efficient, effective person. Because your business and let people know how many people you got employed for you. [Grace] We just have our sixth team member starting shortly, who is going to be a practice manager. And I'm very excited to have a practice manager come on board because running a business four-hours a day. It has been really hard. And I need help with that. So I often am not able to stop after four-hours. And when I don't stop after four hours, my health is compromised. So I'm looking forward to being able to hand over some of the admin tasks. [Narelle] You just, you're brilliant, Grace. And obviously I am a big fan of yours. Only because the ingenuity that you've used to adapt so that you can start your own business. What are the challenges you find with clients, if they realize that you have this disability? [Grace] I haven't had any actually. So I think one of the things about bookkeeping is it's an industry that's already set up for remote work. [Narelle] Yeah. [Grace] I've had I find the challenges, the challenges I have, the barriers to communication I have with clients are mostly either they're not confident in technology or the need to share information securely and cybersecurity practices. So for me, both are about education. So I can teach people how to use fairly simple software and we can create systems that work for them. Some, yeah, work with each client to find something that works for them that, that isn't too onerous with the cybersecurity. [Narelle] Yeah. [Grace] Because if, if the barrier is too big, if it feels like too much of a bother, they're not going to use the system. They're just going to e-mail things to me. And that, then they're putting themselves at risk with having their financial information be transmitted in an insecure the way. I feel like that's a bit of a theme in what we've been talking about previously. If you, if something is too hard to use or too hard to understand, you're not going to bother. So if you want to communicate your message, if you want to have people use your service, you make it as easy as possible. And that is all really what digital accessibility is about, isn't it? [Narelle] I think it's also recognizing that everyone's different. [Grace] Right. [Narelle] Everyone has a slightly different communication style. Like for me, I did park run this morning and, yeah, I did half the park run with my guide dog. But my sighted guide was ready so that, that I've got a my I've only had my guide dog for 8 months now And we're still trying to get him up to that speed and for the distance so that he can do it. And so when it hit that two and a half, 3K mark, it was he said, I'm done. And his communication style was I'll just go a bit slower. And so I knew and my sighted guide said, okay, take him off harness, he's on leash and I was on the tether. And we completed the park run. Did we do a PB? No, we didn't. Did that matter? No, because we still did the park run. And it's only 5K. And I, I still succeeded. I am. But I have to remember that right now until my guide dog is at that level where he can do the walk-jog walk-jog, which is what I like to do, that it's going to take time. And I just think anyone in when you do something new has that barrier. It's not a barrier, is it has that challenge. It doesn't matter what you're doing. You've got to learn how to do it. [Grace] Yeah, I suppose what I meant was if a screen reader is going to read your website out of order, all the information is still there. But are you really going to expect someone to try and piece that together? Or are they just going to give up? [Narelle] Good point. And also I've got to admit, lately I've giving up, because I just don't have time, Grace, I just need to get in, do what I need to do, and get out again. Now, whatever the application is, or, you know, I need that piece. One piece of information, I don't want to spend half an hour trying to work out how the website's built. [Grace] Yes. [Narelle] Good point. I just, you know I move on. [Grace] Yeah. And It breaks my heart, like, having , having this business and having all these being able to do so much through the digital world has opened up so much for me. And it breaks my heart that it's not accessible to everyone. I think I always thought of the internet as universal. Obviously, you need to have the economic means to have a mobile or computer to access it. But I didn't realize how limited it was for people that use Assistive Technology. And it should be there for everyone. It should and particularly people that are isolated in different ways that can could communicate and could access things digitally. [Narelle] Well, I think that's one of the things I always think about with you, Grace. You talked earlier in the piece where you were very isolated. You were in your room, you're very isolated. You weren't meeting people. And then you got that impetus. And you had the reason. And you knew what you wanted to do. And in a space of two and a half years, you've changed your whole life. So now, I say, oh, have you spoken to Grace Cameron. And someone's like, oh, no, I've got to go and speak to Grace. She'll know about whatever it is. And now you're getting the name for knowing about, you know, the particular types of challenges that you take on with bookkeeping. And to me, you having POTS is the sideline. Your main thing is your a darn good bookkeeper, you take on those challenging bookwork where, you know, there's issues, whatever it is. And you sort it out and get them back on, get the business back on course or aid the businesses to get back on course. And that's the other thing. I think hiring a person with disability, we are problem solvers, aren't we? [Grace] Right. And we have an understanding of of other people having challenges. And I think I take that for me. One of my passions is when I speak to business owners. I want them to understand their business. I want them to understand what the numbers are doing. I want them to see their business changing as it's changing. So they can act early. If the expenses are going up and profit margins are shrinking, you want to recognize that early so that you've got time to plan. Rather than when change hits you in the face and you have to react. And, but most people aren't really into numbers and data. And so working out how I can communicate with each client, what, what they need to understand those things. That, that is the most exciting thing for me. And I think also, maybe the most powerful thing for my clients being able to use that. Whether they're numbers people or not. Or whether they like graphs. [Narelle] If you're looking at their method of communication and the way they feel the most comfortable to get the message. [Grace] Yeah. And trying to work together. We don't always get it it takes time to get it right. But then when we I, we know we can create a template really for that that client to keep each month communicating that the change that we can see in the data. [Narelle] Grace. What would you say to any person with disability, about finding work or starting a business. What's the one tip or idea that you would say to help them break out of that isolation? [Grace] There's two tips actually. And they're not just for people with disability. I think these tips are for anyone. The first one is to think of continuous improvement rather than perfectionism. So if you're looking for something that's perfect it's really hard to start. But if you can just start on something small and know that you'll improve it over time, it's much easier to get started. And the other one that I used in my business, my, my business coach actually said it to me early on. And it's been brilliant. When you have a piece of advice, instead of thinking I can't do that because of this, I can't do that because that requires me to go out of the house and go see people face-to-face. I think I like, I like the concept. So how can I make that work for me and take out parts that, parts of that concept? And so an example is accountant meetings. Often people suggest to bookkeepers go knock on the doors of all of the accountants in your neighbourhood and introduce yourself and set up meetings with them. That doesn't work for me. But I can do it digitally. So yeah. [Narelle] Grace. Thanks. I, I think you've got such a powerful message to give across and I appreciate your time today. I really do. And just sitting here and looking at what you've done the last two and a half years. Oh yeah. Congratulations, Grace. [Grace] Thank you. [Narelle] You know, you are an exciting person to sit back and watch, to see where your journey takes you. So [Grace] I've had a lot of help. And I Yeah. I've had a lot of fantastic advice and I think it just came back to doing small changes, trying to do a small change each week or trying a implement something in a way that works for me regularly. And not having perfect as the goal, but having improvement as the goal. [Narelle] Thanks Grace. Thanks so much for your time today. So Grace, how can people contact you? [Grace] Well, Sunlight Bookkeeping is my business. And our phone number is 02 6685 7558. Or you can email me at grace@sunlightbookkeeping.com.au. [Narelle] Now, if you want a great bookkeeper, talk to Grace. If you want inspiration and understanding that there's no such thing as a barrier. It's a challenge and a challenge is able to be met. Not sometimes the way you would think, because let's face it, Grace has just done a podcast, lying on her back, on Clover, according to the screen. And she's done it with a laugh. And yeah, Grace is a perf, Grace is the one to meet. If you ever get the chance, meet Grace Cameron. [Grace] Thank you Narelle. [Narelle] And thanks everyone. See you next episode of The Digital Access Show. [Grace] Thank you, Narelle. [Music] This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Episode Notes [Music] [Narelle] Hi and welcome to our latest Digital Access Show. Today, I have Brendan Somerville with us. Brendan is working with Spinal Life and his role in Spinal Life is to help employers bring on board people with disability. What you don't know, and you can't see I'll let Brendan tell you himself. However, thanks Brendan, thanks for your time today. [Brendan] Yeah, thank you for the invitation, Narelle. Looking forward to having a chat. [Narelle] Well, I've been looking forward to this one for a while because employing people with disability is a passion of mine. I don't see the barriers, but I know others do. Brendan, tell me a bit about yourself and your role at Spinal Life. [Brendan] Okay, so a little bit about myself is, I'm a Cauca, Caucasian male in, who uses the wheelchair. So, I have a disability of spinal bifida and hydrocephalus, which basically means that I was born with a portion of my lower spine that wasn't formed properly and it caused nerve damage to my spine when I was born. And, therefore, I have difficulty with walking and a whole host of, a lot of things that we won't talk mention here. [Narelle] No, please don't. [Brendan] But, yeah. And, and so yeah, I love going out you know, outdoors camping and I love, you know, advocating for people in terms of the employment side of things, which is why I'm working with Spinal Life Australia at the moment. So last year, I met Narelle doing this same project in the Mortone Bay Region and because we had good results last year, we've been extended to the Sunshine Coast and Wide Bay, now. [Narelle] That was fantastic. [Brendan] Yeah, and so the program has been funded by the Department of Tourism, Innovation and Sport this year. And it's all about mentoring small businesses about how to become more inclusive to their customers with disabilities and also to help those businesses in the tourism industry specifically, on the Sunshine Coast and Wide Bay to think about people with disabilities as additional talent pools when they're struggling to fill their roles. Yeah. [Narelle] What drew you to do this? It's definitely a little bit out of the norm. What, what was it that drew you to do this, Brendan? What attracted you? [Brendan] So personally it was my, my personal experience with long-term unemployment. And then also, one day when I was doing traineeship in business administration, just trying to find a skill set that would give me the broadest opportunity possible. So everybody needs an admin officer. Yeah, and I came across some resumes and I was helping one of the recruitment consultants at a group training organization to shortlist for some apprenticeships. And it just, a lightbulb went off in mind about the way that people were presenting themselves on paper. You know, using qualitative outcomes to demonstrate their value to an employer as opposed to just, you know, words on a piece of paper that say if they're done these certificates and, you know, worked here for this long kind of thing. It was really impressive. And so then, that spurred me on to do a Bachelor's Degree in Human Resource Management. And I was hoping that I could use those skills either as an employee or in a small business operations which I did, to help businesses to become again more inclusive by improving their recruitment practices and opening their minds to the possibility of, you know, the value of employing a person with disability to do roles from entry level admin roles to, you know, management and governance roles. [Narelle] That's actually quite interesting because you started off with talking about the fact that you were long-term unemployed. What were the barriers that you were having? Why, you know, considering that you, you know, you've got education, you've all presented. I must say, I assume that because I can't see. Are you well presented? [Brendan] I'm wearing my uniform, that's for sure. Yes. [Narelle] Fantastic. So, you know what I'm saying, [Brendan] Brushed my hair this morning. [Narelle] Oh jeez, that's even better. That's even better. Did you clean your shoes? [Brendan] Did I clean my shoes? Well, I try to keep them fairly clean, and I mean, I don't really use them. They're, they're on, but they last, they last for a very long time when you're in a wheelchair, so... [Narelle] Yeah, so you have a saving in your budget. There automatically. What were the barriers that you found in terms of getting employment? [Brendan] For me, it was a multifaceted, sorry, multifaceted issue. So, number one, I guess was when I was first starting out, it was my lack of experience. Yeah. I like everywhere. We just needed to be given an opportunity. Number two was, as though I was starting to build my vocational skills, it was the, it was the barriers from the Discibility Employment Services in terms of, you know, they must have had key performance indicators and one of those would have been placements per month. And so their attitude was that they would just place me in you know, any job. [Narelle] Yep. [Brendan] And I said, you know, so my attitude was, that's, you know, that's great, you know, a job is a job. And you know, it's the greatest form of welfare, according to some people, best form of welfare is a job. But, but I said, but that's not really going to keep me stimulated and motivated, you know, I mean, I might like it for you know, maybe a couple of months, but then after that, it's going to be the same thing day in and day out. And I like variety. That's just who I am. Which is why this role is perfect for me because it's a mix of everything from admin to customer service, to coaching to facilitating and training and networking and more fun. So thanks. [Narelle] You made an interesting. You made an interesting comment there about the Disability Employment Services that when, you're aware I have two sons that are autistic. And I know, particularly with the one of them that got picked up by Disability Employment Services, it was just shoving into a job. And even if it wasn't an appropriate job for him, it was shove him into that job. And there was one job that he was put in, we actually told him to walk out. Because he couldn't cope. He was, he was bullied quite, but actually bullied very badly. And I was on the verge of saying to my husband, I need you to drive up there and just get him out of it. Just go in, get him out, Mark, because it's not safe for our son. And I think that the lad was about 19 at the time. And it was really just stressful for him. And the lack of awareness by the company, the lack of awareness by the people working in the company about the effects. And it's still affecting Nick today. So, what are the differences that you encourage employers to do to take on a person with a disability? [Brendan] Well, so the first thing is, is that I talk to them about, you know, you know, what the research says about employing people with disabilities. So, there is evidence out there that says that employing people with disability is, makes that, so is a great economic decision for a business, because they have, they're more loyal. Well, of course, they are retained for longer. They have on average less sick days. These people are more generally innovative and great at problem solving, because they have to do that as part of their everyday lives to navigate obstacles in their community. And yeah, so, so that's the first thing that I you know, go to them about. And then we start talking about, you know, the structural stuff of their business. So, you know, what policies and procedures do you have in place? What practices do you have in place in terms of inclusive recruitment and on boardings skills? And, you know, what, what programs do you have in place? Once you've onboarded the person with disability to help them remain engaged and be able to connect with the supports that they may need if they are requesting reasonable adjustments. You know, and you know, they're not always going to be requesting reasonable adjustments, but in some cases they may. And in most cases, those reasonable adjustments are very cost effective. And you may also be able to claim reimbursement for those reasonable adjustments through JobAccess as well. [Narelle] So, and how did it help? Did you know, other employers that you're approaching their kind of yeah, great, let's do it? Or are they very hesitant? Or do you get a real mix? [Brendan] I get a definitely get a real mix. And I do find that it's the people who have had some form of experience with disability, who are more engaged and interested as opposed to the people who have had no experience at all. [Narelle] Yep. [Brendan] And those people who have no experience at all are still willing to try. But there's a lot more coaching involved. Yeah. [Narelle] And do you find that when you get the person in there, obviously you would be supporting the individual that's working for them with disability as well. Do you find it becomes nine times out of ten a great outcome? [Brendan] So, one thing I will say is that this is a service for the business, it's not generally for the job seeker [Narelle] Oh, okay, yep. [Brendan] I do have interactions with job seekers from time to time, but the main focus is on mentoring businesses. Sorry, I, I've forgot the second part of your question. [Narelle] Do you find that you get quite a good result for the business? [Brendan] All right. Yes. Okay. So, yes, sustainable employment outcomes, definitely. So, so, last year, we managed to place or connect 14 job seekers with disabilities. [Narelle] Yep. [Brendan] And I've checked in with those businesses and those people are still employed. So, yeah, and they, and they were in industries like you know, retail, hospitality, IT. Yeah. A bit of tourism. Yeah. [Narelle] So, what type of changes were required for, you know, any of the businesses to employ these people? Were them, was there massive cost involved? Or was it just something that, you know, mostly they could just guide in with a bit of mentorship, bit of budding up with someone else in the workplace that it would just work? Was there, you know, what were the challenges you found? [Brendan] So, yeah, the reasonable adjustments that I'm aware of were things like an height adjustable desk. [Narelle] Oh, okay. That's a good one, yeah. [Brendan] Yep. Something like that. And yeah, I think that's pretty much, you know, the main ones that I'm aware of. It's, it's more that stationary type of thing. And again, that's something that, you know, was able to be reimbursed. And it's common in this, you know, at the moment really for people to request a sit-standing desk as well. So, it's not like it's, you know, an extraordinary type of reasonable adjustment. [Narelle] And that's what I was going to say. And that's something that's very common. What about, you know, any different types of IT that was required, any assistive technology tools, you didn't have any of them at all? [Brendan] Not that I'm aware of that. [Narelle] That's excellent. Because, yeah, that just says mostly it can be done. When you yourself are working, what challenges do you find? [Brendan] Okay. That's a very broad question. [Narelle] Yeah, it is a bit. Yeah. [Brendan] Okay. In terms of [Narelle] Accessibility, physical accessibility, digital accessibility. So, people attitudes towards you? Yeah. [Brendan] So, I think, in terms of accessibility, I, yeah, there are times when access is a bit challenging for me because the entrance to a business might be up a bit of a slope and things like that. But, generally speaking, yeah, I guess maybe, you know, another thing might be trying to find that an accessible car park. [Narelle] Yeah, that would be a big one thing [Brendan] That can be difficult. Yeah. So, you know, if they're all taken, I've got to try, you know, accommodate myself by thinking outside the box about where I'm gonna park. So, sometimes I'll have to go and park next to a pedestrian crossing, so I can open the door that way. In terms of people's perceptions and things like that, people are generally good willed. And yeah, I think people are interested to, you know, they want to be engaged. But I guess sometimes, you know, they're a little bit fearful around saying the wrong thing. And, and also I guess they can't, sometimes they can't really relate to, you know, my experiences as well. So, that can be a difficult thing to, to communicate and to get understanding I suppose. [Narelle] What would you say to people about that particular point? [Brendan] I would say, just trust the process and, and, and, you know, give it a go, you know, and see for yourself what the benefits are of employing people with disabilities. [Narelle] Is there any tips that you would suggest to employers to start doing before they even talk to you if they really want to do it? What, what could they do just to make their business a much more attractive business to a person with disability? What, what would they do? [Brendan] Sure, they could start doing things like doing an audit of their workplace. And engaging with somebody like yourself to look at their website and their digital communication strings. They could also then start looking at how they communicate about disability in the workplace and be more proactive in promoting the way that they interact with customers through their marketing. So, use images of your customers with disabilities, you know, obviously with with consent, interacting with your business and promoting the fact that, you know, you do, you know, service customers with disabilities in your business. Because I'm sure most businesses do, if not all. Because there are people out there who, unlike myself, have invisible disabilities and you don't identify as having a disability even though, according to, you know, the definitions of disability, they probably do. Yeah. So, that, that would be a great starting point. And to also then start thinking about, you know, your recruitment practices, so using, again, inclusive language. And then making sure you have welcoming statements on advertisements that says things like, you know, we welcome applications from candidates with disabilities, things like that. [Narelle] That's a really simple thing to do. I would never have thought of that one. But that's it, such a simple thing. What about from the the aspect or the perspective of a person in a wheelchair. What could business do, to make your life as their customer, as person just wandering in, what could they do? [Brendan] One of the first barriers that I encounter, if it's not outside the business related to car parks, and things and, and ramps. Sometimes the business doesn't have a ramp. So, one of the first things would would be to be, would be for the business to be aware of that and to try to keep an eye out, for anybody who might be outside trying to signal. And to be approachable and it, come down to them if they can't get into the building and provide customer service on the curbside. Another thing would be to try to lower the height of the reception desk. I find a lot, that I go to places, particularly hotels and medical practices where to cut, the reception desk is really high, and I end up having to wave. To let them know that I'm down here and to talk to me [Narelle] That's actually, because you just made me think of where I go, and it's not just the desk, it's that plexiglass that was put up after COVID. [Brendan] Yeah, that could be a bit of a barrier for some people too, I'm sure. I mean, it's clear, but it does make it harder to hear, I would think. [Narelle] Yeah, or even like for myself I've, and I've never thought about it actually, unti you said that, but I tend to go there and I wait for someone to notice me because to me it's just shapes, I, it could be just a chair, I don't know what's there. But yeah, that's the, I hadn't thought about those things, but that's what I love doing this Brendan. You know, we go into areas that you don't normally think about? [Brendan] Absolutely, yeah. [Narelle] What else could you suggest as, you know, just out socially like you go and out, I know like for you going camping, and like I do park run and things like that. We're just normal people. You and I know that, but you know, do other people go, oh my gosh, you're going camping? [Brendan] All the time. Yeah. So, I let you know the other day when we were setting up this meeting, that I'm actually in the process of doing a project refurbishment of a camper van with the assistance of my dad, of course, and he's doing most of it. [Narelle] Well, that's what fathers are for. [Brendan] Well, I don't really have the know hows there. [Narelle] And that's probably more to the point. Yeah. [Brendan] More to the point. Yeah. But yeah, so yeah, all the time. And you know, it's unfortunate that, you know, I've even had, you know, I've had it again, well meaning, but a little bit demeaning, but people congratulate me for, you know, being out in the community. And, they'll talk down, talk down to you like you are a child. So, you know, had an experience with another friend a while ago and we were out and about just enjoying the day and, you know, we were going along a footpath and just sort of said, you know, that two finger wave, you know. How are you going? to people walking past. And they said, oh, and how's your day going? And we responded, yeah, great, thanks. And they said, oh, you know, well done, kinda thing. Really? [Narelle] Yeah. And, and I've actually been congratulated on how, that the fact that I can walk. And I remember because I was learning some new techniques with my cane at the time. And I was practicing them and I had my support worker behind me. And this person seriously congratulated me on being able to walk. And my support worker just put her hand on my shoulder. And I can hear this very quietly saying, don't say a thing. Just breathe. Because I, you know, it can be quite. Yeah, it's talking down down to. It's mentally pretty tough when you get those things said to you because they're really not necessary. [Brendan] It's just frustrating. [Narelle] Yeah. Yeah, it is. And I know now, I just get the giggles and think, you know, if I said, oh, congratulations, you're out walking to someone that was fit and healthy, they would be, what, what are you saying? But, think about it from the other person's perspective I suppose it's the message, isn't it? [Brendan] Yeah, and it's about you know, changing people's mindsets and attitudes. Yeah, and I think, you know, we've got a long way to go, but we're making an inroads in that regard through programs like this. But, but yeah, it's just, it's very interesting. You know, how this, this mindset develops to thinking that a personal disability is somebody to be admired and, you know, that they're, that they're achieving all these wonderful things. But, you know, really, it's, yes, we are, but so are you. And we're just doing it differently. [Narelle] Yeah. I've got a cousin that has some form of intellectual impairment, definitely. And she retired, oh, not that many years ago. And I remember her ringing me up and her saying to me, ha, beat you. And I said, "What are we talking about?" Because we've done some stupid races in our times. Like we raced to see who was going to have the first gray hair. I actually won that one, because even though she's 12 years older than me, I beat her. But, yeah, just some stupid stuff. But I'd never even thought about it. And she rang me and said, I retired yesterday. And I said, "Oh did you?". She'd done 40 years in the same place. And yeah, she had her frustrations at times, but her mother was there to talk Fran through when the frustrations really start to build up. When my aunt passed away then her sister and brother, brothers, stepped in. And, you know, that's, I suppose that's the message to get across, isn't it? Fran worked at this company for 40 years. And she did a variety of roles. You know, she was a, she ran a team for a while. She didn't like doing that. She was pretty quick to tell me that one. But, you know, she was there. She was a long-term employee. So when she left, and I should say, I think it was in Endeabour Foundation she worked for. But when she left, she walked out with a lot of knowledge. And after 40 years, they probably got their their value from Fran. Today, you know, there's a huge number of people with disability that are looking to work. And they want to work. Some are creating their own businesses because what else can they do? [Brendan] Because of short, because of long-term unemployment, yeah. [Narelle] Yep. Exactly. And how can people get in contact with you, so that you can discuss what we've been discussing here today. So that you can maybe open their eyes to what is really possible in employing a person with disability? [Brendan] Yeah, people were to, to Google, "Enable Business". They'd be able to find it on this spinalifeaustralia.com website, as well. Yeah. And submitted an online inquiry through there, or you can email me directly at bsomerville@spinal.com.au or you can give my phone number a call on 0437 885 379. [Narelle] Brendan, what's the final tip that you can give to people? It could be about anything related to a person in a wheelchair to employment, anything. What's that final tip that you would say? [Brendan] My final tip would probably be, you know, ask a person, you know, with disability if they need assistance before giving it. And also treat them like the way that you would like to be treated. So, what I'm meaning when I say that is what we were talking about before and not demeaning people, not talking down to them, because you perceive them as having a disability, because they could be, they could have a disability. But they could be a highly functioning member of society like, like you and I and like your friend who's just retired. [Narelle] Yeah. [Brendan] So, [Narelle] Yeah. And that's it. We all lead normal lives. I'm having a lot of fun. And I'm meeting people that I would never have met if this disability hadn't happened to me. Yeah, it happened later. But I would never have met people like Brendan and the wonderful people that I'm meeting today. If this hadn't happened, I would be still doing my normal rote job. I would be doing the garden on the weekend, maybe a bit of travel, but I would have been missing out. Yeah. So thanks Brendan. And yeah. Thank you. [Brendan] No, thank you very much [Narelle] And we'll see you on the next episode of The Digital Access Show. [Music] This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Episode Notes [Music] [Narelle] Hi and welcome to our next edition of The Digital Access Show. Today, I want to introduce you to a guy that we've done a bit of work with and we absolutely love working with David, David Oram is from Atomic Web Strategy. David is based in Melbourne and hello David. [David] Hi Narelle, thanks for having me. [Narelle] Well, thanks for coming David. I have actually stuffed up this is the second time we've tape this podcast, because I had a computer problem and you know the second one's never going to be as good as the first. So I apologise, David. David, can you tell us a bit about yourself? What you do? [David] So I've been in IT for over 10 years. Originally, started it out in the search marketing game. We were originally working in partnership with Yahoo at one point and when Yahoo pulled out of Australia, I then moved on to web development and providing those services to clients. Specializing in WordPress. That is the most popular CMS and also great CMS for WCAG accessibility. So we chose to specialize in that area. The services that we mostly provide website maintenance, a design, rebuilding of websites, SEO services and of course accessibility. [Narelle] What is it with WordPress that makes it a good tool for you to use with everything that you're doing? Is, What is the attraction? [David] Well, other than the fact that it's extremely popular, I think it powers over 60% of websites now. It's also that ease of use and the availability of software because it's an open source platform. So there's lots and lots of options for adding functionality to websites. Both free and paid versions of various plugins, wide variety of themes and also some great page builders. Especially, over the last few years the the page builder software has improved dramatically. We first saw, Divi come along which was groundbreaking and then Elementor came along which seems to have overtaken Divi. Which makes it a lot easier, not only for us but also for the end user. thatt means that our clients can now update their own website. Certainly, in terms of page content like text and images, and things like that. Makes it so much easier for them. Whereas in the past with the classic editor, I mean that was quite challenging for them. Supposedly, easy but when they actually try to do it without a technical knowledge, it was yeah, proves to be a little bit too hard and then having to pay for maintenance and simple things like that. [Narellle] So WordPress, you can bring in the SEO quite easily through WordPress as well. All the other things you're talking about, accessibility. It's, it's quite a adaptable tool then is it? [David] Yes, so out of the box. The developers of WordPress have put some thought in clearly to SEO and accessibility uhm, so out of the box, it's pretty close. It's one of the best in terms of meeting those requirements for onsite SEO and accessibility guidelines. [Narelle] What is it that attracts you to building website, designing websites? What is there for you that that makes you say yeah, I want to just keep doing this? What do you love about it? [David] I guess uhm, creative. I really, really enjoy IT. I actually originally started out as an accountant but. [Narelle] You're kidding? [David] Yeah, yeah but then got into IT later on because that was that was the area that I, I really enjoyed. So I went into development and coding. So my creativity is more in that direction rather than in artistic design. [Narelle] Yes. [David] So yeah, I just like, I guess I like building things. [Narelle] How did you get into accessibility then? What, what made you look at accessibility? [David] Well, it's part of SEO. I picked up on that early on doing reports for clients on SEO and noticed that Google was starting to include that now as part of their algorithm. So it was interesting that they put that importance on it. Also, there's a history of blindness, blindness in my family as well so. So I'm aware of the issues there. My grandpa, he was completely blind. He actually went blind from glaucoma before it was a treatable illness and my dad, he also came down with glaucoma. Uh, but uh, they were able to treat it and recover some of the sight, at least in one of his eyes so he was partially blind. [Narelle] Yes. Yeah, it's amazing what you find out about people even though you've known them for a little bit and yeah, that's something I didn't realize with you. So you'd actually, obviously, be very aware of the issues that vision impairment can bring to people accessing websites and digital content. [David] Yeah, that's right. Yeah so my grandpa was involved with Vision Australia. I remember, as a kid, he used to get the the audio cassettes. Books on audio cassette and things like that, so yeah. [Narelle] Yeah, uhm, with accessibility, other than the SEO, what is the importance of it? Yeah, obviously, I'm aware of it. And you're aware of it but can you tell the audience, from your point of view, as the web developer as a the digital marketer. Why? Why incorporate accessibility? [David] Well, there's a number of reasons. I guess, from everyone's perspective incorporating the accessibility guidelines just makes the website a lot easier to read. It looks a lot nicer because we're using nice clean fonts and clean layouts, things like that. And the obvious is for people who are actually disabled it makes the website much more inclusive because they can access the website and all the features. From a business perspective, it's surprising to learn that, I think, almost 20% of people have some sort of disability. So if you don't have an accessible website, potentially, you could be missing out on 20% of the available market. So uhm, there's certainly a number of reasons for incorporating accessibility. [Narelle] When you talk to clients and you talk about accessibility and I'll say that's an extra cost. What's your reaction to that? [David] My reaction to that is to explain the the reasons why they might want to consider that. And also explain that it doesn't necessarily involve having to get certification on every single page on a website. We, we can focus on the key pages of a website and exempt other pages if that's required. Because if you've got a website that's not compliant and there's hundreds of pages then the cost can be prohibitive for some people. So then we can look at narrowing it down to what's the most important on the website. [Narelle] What are the steps? When you look at a website, how do you know that there is accessibility built in? Is there any way that a standard person can tell? [David] Well, if you don't have a disability, it can be a little difficult if you don't know what you're looking for. Some things are obvious, like when functional, functionality like menus and things like that are difficult to use or having trouble reading the the fonts because of the background colour behind them. That's, that's a giveaway. [Narelle] What that it is accessible or that it isn't? [David] That it isn't. If you can't read it as a sighted person because of the colour scheme then you know there's a problem. There's also, uh, quite a few online tools where you can check the. the technical side of the website as well, to see if it's visible to screen readers and things like that. [Narelle] What, what do you advise people, like generally, when you're out and about and someone says uh, went and looked at this website. I couldn't find any, find what I wanted because of you know the issues you've just discussed. What do you advise them to do? Do you talk to them about it? Wha, what, what's the best thing for those people to do? [David] Well, I guess I want to discuss that with them and see if we can assist them in fixing those issues. Yeah, generally, most of these issues can be resolved. It's just a matter of investigation and putting in time to, to look at it. [Narelle] What is the process that you use to design a website that includes accessibility? Do you, obviously you use a process. You wouldn't still be here and wouldn't be successful if you weren't. But what is the process David? What, what would you say to a client that comes and says I want to add accessibility. Where do you start? [David] Once we've established which pages we're going to be focusing on, and we'd start at the the higher level and use the online tools to work out where the obvious problems are. And we start working on those first and we'd also be leaning on our knowledge and experience of accessibility and then once we've got it to a point that we're happy with it, that's when we run it past yourself, Narelle, to get an audit, to find out if there's anything remaining that needs to be resolved. [Narelle] What tips and tricks could you, just say off the top of your head, that are some simple tips that would just start them on the journey, David. You know, what, what would a person that looks at their website and thinks yeah, I can you know, they doing it themselves. what can you advise them to do to start on that journey? [David] Well, if they're doing it themselves, I would definitely be suggesting WordPress. because that will solve quite a lot of the issues out of the box like I mentioned before. choosing an appropriate theme such as the Astra theme. that's one, we're currently using, that's very accessible out of the box and also making sure that they use appropriate plugins that aren't going to affect the accessibility in any way, in a negative way. [Narelle] Yeah. [David] When building pages, they need to consider things like the contrast of colours. So that they would need to check that online to make sure the contrast are correct based on the the guidelines. Think about fonts and navigation in terms of making sure that navigation is clear as to where it leads you to. And also thinking about images and making sure there's alt text available for all of the images and that it's a clear description of what what the image is actually about. [Narelle] What about the professional web developer, the web designer? What, what would you say to them? [David] In what way? [Narelle] In relation to you know, should they do it? Should they, if there are any industry where you'd say no don't do it. You know, what, what would you what advice could you give them about the accessibility and the web development techniques. [David] After the web developers out there? [Narelle] Yeah, yeah. [David] Yeah. Well, it's definitely something worth considering. It can not only give your client a boost in Google rankings due to its importance in SEO now. But it also opens the door to expanding their markets and also improves the the general look and feel of the website for everyone. Because the guidelines, they really do improve the look and feel. Not just for disabled people and for screen readers and things like that. You end up with a much cleaner design, much easier to read. [Narelle] Is there are any other benefits? Is it easier to maintain? Is it more difficult to maintain? [David] I guess it depends on how you approach it. So, for example if a client wants to create a new page on the website from scratch and they create a blank page and go to work on it. They could introduce inaccessible content that they're writing. But we have ways to mitigate that. So we can set it up in a way that allows them to start with accessible page. And then modify it to suit basically. So that, that can help reduce that risk. [Narelle] Excellent. Is there are any industry that you would say, no you don't need accessibility techniques. [David] Off top of my head not that I can think of, no. [Narelle] Really? Wow! Always, always. [David] I would to think aoub that. [Narelle] Yeah. I always sort of expect when I ask that question, people just suddenly go off in this long long list but, yeah, that's good to know. David, is there anything else you'd like to say because you know, obviously for me I'm appreciative that you've come on. As I've said at the start, we've done some work with David and we recommend David and his work to anyone that wants a great digital marketing solution. What, is there anything you want to add David? How can people contact you? [David] The best thing to do would be to go to our website atomicwebstrategy.com.au. And we've got quite a bit of information there about accessibility and we're contactable there from our contact page by form or phone. So yeah. And of course for anyone's auditing needs, I would recommend DASAT and Narelle. [Narelle] Well, thank you. [David] Because you're very easy to work with and I think we make a great team. [Narelle] We do make a great team. But I think more importantly ensuring communication for everyone is just the best possible outcome, isn't it? [David] Absolutely, yep. Sure. [Narelle] Yeah. Thank you David. Thanks so much for your time today. [David] Okay, thanks Narelle. Thanks for having me. [Narelle] Not a problem. And that's another episode of The Digital Access Show. See you next time. [Music] This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Episode Notes Shannon Towell is an Experience Designer who specialises in creating the best experiences for her clients. Working in both the digital and physical realm through the medium of websites, and interactives for museums and other cultural institutions. This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Episode Notes Adam Morris is an assistive technology trainer who also happens to be vision impaired. Adam currently works for a Non Government Operator. He is affective and efficient and has some great points to offer. This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Episode Notes Paula Burgess is an entrepreneur, business coach, boss, mum, sister and fan of digital accessibility. She discusses how she incorporates accessibility into her work. Also find out a couple of great tips. This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Episode Notes Allan Parker OAM, micro behavioural neuroscientist and forensic linguist, has travelled the world, written books and is an expert in complex negotiation and mediation. Allan is also dyslexic. Not able to read until he was 30 he has completed university degrees and has some great tips on how to manage meetings and conferences with diverse people to ensure inclusivity. This podcast is powered by Pinecast.