On the Other Hand

In this second part of our conversation with Ann Clemmer, a former state legislator, former professor, and current lobbyist, April and Glen explore Ann's views on effective strategies for working with government officials for the public good in an environment where civility and collaboration are not a given. She argues that moderation and compromise still hold promise in this environment because "parties are ultimately pragmatic - they want to win." Ann discusses avenues for citizen involvement that can influence not just electoral outcomes, but also legislation. The conversation with Ann includes her thoughts on how we can bridge political divisions (even in our families) and concludes with an anecdotal story of a legislative colleague who, in his passion, broke with legislative norms and an unwritten code of civility toward her Republican caucus on the floor of the House.

Glen and April welcome Ann Clemmer, a former state legislator and former professor at UA-Little Rock, for a conversation. Ann is currently a lobbyist with Capitol Consulting Firm. In this first part of our chat, Ann shares her early exposure as a child to politics and its continuing influence on her career choices and life. In spite of coming of age and getting elected in one of the most solidly Democrat states in the nation at the time, Ann then and since has consistently embraced a more Republican worldview. Ann describes how, as a state representative, she tried to work across divisions but found that even with support from those in her party, legislation sometimes failed due to the opposition party’s reluctance to yield a win. She describes this period of her career and the challenges faced by the minority Republican caucus as it eked forward from 28 out of 100 to the barest of majorities possible, 51 out of 100 in 2013. She shares the frustrating realities that made this kind of work difficult and her perceptions of the current tensions within Arkansas Republican party groups. As an Arkansas lobbyist/consultant now, with a large Republican majority in the General Assembly, Ann discusses the job of influencing legislative outcomes where conflicting pressures are at play. She describes with pride one project she engaged with that resulted in successful infusion of much needed resources for an especially vulnerable group of children in the state.

In the second part of our interview with Dr. Phillip Fletcher, an ordained minister, author, teacher, & nonprofit founder, April and Glen explore his political leanings, which can vary, as he finds some commonality with both Reds and Blues, depending on the issue. While he works readily with people all across the spectrum, there are points beyond which he will not collaborate, especially if they are incompatible with his "north star" of respecting the dignity and worth of every human. He also asserts that "human beings want to be better" and he tries to help them accomplish this through his active work in the community. Finally, he talks about how Arkansas somewhat surprisingly wound up being his home, despite his initial time in California and the culture shock he experienced the first time he encountered a specific Arkansas cultural touchstone.

April and Glen speak with Dr. Phillip Fletcher, an ordained minister, author, teacher, & nonprofit founder. As CEO of a nonprofit called The City of Hope Outreach, Phillip seeks to promote community development and "human flourishing" in education, housing, and nutrition, especially among the poor in central Arkansas. In this first of two parts, Phillip describes his values that led him to promote the "dignity and worth of every individual," especially with respect to education, nutrition, and housing. Phillip emphasizes the importance of finding contributions in everyone, including those persons that many would discount as either unable or unwilling to help themselves or others. He shares personal stories about how he has engaged the community in his efforts, despite many groups with differing goals or visions of how to help. Some key aspects he promotes in his work are doing the work necessary to understand the facts and beliefs important to those who may resist his efforts or views. Steeped in a philosophy of personalism, Phillip explains its origins and how it has been used in the activism of such leaders as Dr. Martin Luther King and others. Despite his strong religious beliefs, he acknowledges our society as a pluralistic culture and warns others not to let their faith lead them to become an extremist or zealot, nor to force others toward their viewpoint.

In the second part of our interview with Patricia Matthews, Executive Director of the Interfaith Center of Arkansas, April and Glen explore commonalities between interfaith approaches and those of Braver Angels' focus on political differences. Patricia then describes how she deals with issues such as the doubts of non-religious persons, potential conflicts between science and religion, and the impact on religion of extremists in the various faiths. Another element she sees as important in understanding the value of interfaith dialog came about from learning about a personal experience of a Muslim woman she worked with. This woman experienced a troubling encounter that revealed a hidden suspicion and stereotype held about her from someone she had encountered daily in her workplace for some time. In outlining some ideas for dealing with tensions that arise from differences of faith, Patricia reveals some of her personal approaches that help her maintain some peace of mind.

Glen & April talk with Patricia Matthews, an Episcopal priest and the new Executive Director of the Interfaith Center of Arkansas. In this first part of the interview, Patricia tells us about working with people of many different faiths, some of the challenges she encounters, and how they work through those obstacles. Patricia also shares with us a difficult moment she encountered earlier in her career when she was working with children of various faiths and was accused of doing the devil's work because of her respect for the actions of the kids she was working with when they engaged in rituals of their own faith. Her response to this challenge reflected what she sees as a key element in all faiths: love of God, self, and others. She notes the similarities between interfaith work and the efforts by Braver Angels to help others reach across political divides. Many approaches by both groups are similar, having a common foundation, including values much like the Golden Rule. One such instance she describes is how persons from various faiths struggled with dealing with the current issue of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.  Her response mirrors the approaches we discuss in both interfaith and Braver Angels work.

In the second part of our interview with our producer of this podcast, Glen and April explore with John O'Brien his work in the Texas public school system and his successful revamping of a curriculum for his seniors in high school language arts classes. Despite going against tradition and some of the state's requirements, John developed an entirely new and more practical exploration of literature that included many important life lessons for his students. His bold departure from tradition became popular with students and eventually was endorsed by other educators and administrators. John also describes how those working in education sometimes have their competence lead to ultimately difficult outcomes for them and the system. He offers suggestions for how the current direction in public education might be improved. John also offers a humorous story from his time working with a boss and a secretary, in which the interactions reached a crisis point, with a surprising conclusion.

April and Glen welcome to the microphone someone who is usually handling our podcasts from the technical side: John O’Brien, who serves as producer and editor for  On The Other Hand. John combines 33 years as a senior corporate human resources and training executive with thirteen years in public education. He also has decades of experience with technical aspects of video and audio editing. During his retirement, John has been active with community volunteering work as a member and an officer with Rotary International, Kiwanis International, Optimist International, Literacy Council, The United Way, Junior Achievement, and AmeriCorps. In this first episode, John briefly reviews his early adult life and influences, along with the development over time of his political leanings. Next, he takes us through significant moments in his experience handling even worldwide audio/visual broadcasts. John then provides insight into the world of corporate management and managerial/employee relationships. Based on his long experience, John offers key analyses on the dynamics at work in the private sector from the perspective of a Human Resources manager and the balancing act required in serving both sides and ultimately, the stakeholders and legal foundations of the business. Drawing parallels between his experience and the interest in Braver Angels of encouraging respectful negotiation of political differences, John also points out the differences and difficulties in the management/employee dynamics.

In part 2 of our conversation with former Hot Springs, AR city manager Dr. Kent Myers, April and Glen learn how he came to join Braver Angels Arkansas. His concern over the increasing incivility in our country and its many negative implications for citizens and government officials led him to find ways to help cope with those problems so prevalent in our society today. He suggests ways to improve the work of Braver Angels in Arkansas as it seeks to reduce polarization. Among his suggestions, Kent talks about the importance of life-long learning that he sees as a common element in leadership in Braver Angels. Going into his ideas of how we can all improve our work together, he talks about the "C's" that he sees as critical. Those key factors include collaboration, compromise, compassion, civility, and communication. Kent also explains key elements of two leadership approaches: Servant Leadership & Authentic Leadership. An optimist by nature, he talks of his hope for improvements in our political behavior in the future. Kent concludes the conversation with two touching stories of experiences in his own life and how it taught him to not wait to show love and concern for those you care about.

Glen and April talk with Dr. Kent Myers, one of the newer leaders in Braver Angels Arkansas. With a background of serving as a city manager in several cities over his career, along with his doctorate in leadership studies, Kent brings considerable expertise to his work with Braver Angels. In this first part of our conversation, Kent provides a brief bio of his career, then discusses the ways he has approached his role as city manager in several communities around the country, including Hot Springs, AR for 14 years. He briefly outlines the differences between mayoral and the city manager form of government, including specifics about the hybrid model that is used in Little Rock. Outlining some of the critical aspects of sound leadership, Kent talks about the importance of collaboration in working in any leader role. He also mentions recent new concerns among government officials that the polarized environment has exposed civic leaders to new concerns, including verbal or other attacks due to perceived political differences. He explains how the COVID pandemic impacted the increased hostility and how he learned to deal with these new challenges through forgiveness and transparency in his work.

In this second part of our interview with Dr. John Davis, April and Glen delve into details from John's new book, “From Blue to Red: The Rise of the GOP in Arkansas.” In his book, John identifies 3 generations of the modern Republican Party in Arkansas, featuring highlights of Republican politicians from each generation. For example, the desire for political diversity by William Rockefeller helped inspire his entrance into the Republican Party. The 3rd and current generation of Republicans he sees as not yet knowing what it's like to lose. John also mentions Asa Hutchinson's current status in the Republican Party and from there talks about how to get back to bipartisanship in Arkansas. He also recounts an interesting story about Dr. Janine Parry, who is Founding Director of the Arkansas Poll and an expert in Arkansas Politics.

Glen and April spoke with Dr. John C. Davis, a political scientist, researcher, and public servant and currently the executive director of the David & Barbara Pryor Center for Arkansas Oral and Visual History. In this first part of our interview, John discusses his work with the Pryor Center's Arkansas Oral History project, which features stories by and about Arkansans and Arkansas traditions. He traces some of the early influences of his family and values that led him to his life's work and views. Other details about his multi-faceted work are explored, including the influence on John of Bill Clinton's impeachment story, and his interest in working across political divides.

Glen and April had the chance to chat with Asa Hutchinson, an attorney and the previous 2-term Republican governor of Arkansas. Asa has a long history of public service, including serving as a US Congressman, one of the House managers for Bill Clinton’s impeachment trial in the Senate, head of the Drug Enforcement Administration, and chair of the National Governors Association. In the interview, Asa tells us about his current work, which includes working with a security firm, being a conservative teaching at a largely liberal major university, and his other new endeavors. We find out what he views as highlights of his career, including a successful, non-violent arrest and prosecution of a domestic terrorist group in Arkansas. His approach as governor is discussed, including how he handled the COVID pandemic by getting a variety of experts and weighing various views to help him find a way to manage Arkansas's approach to COVID that adhered to his conservative philosophy. While he outlines his strong conservative credentials, he also expresses concerns about several recent developments nationally, including issues he highlighted during his recent unsuccessful run for nominee of the Republican Party as President. We also hear his criticisms of how he sees his party as having moved away from traditional conservative values. He highlights his conviction that civility and compromise remain critical for the success of our government and explains how he remains hopeful that things will get better in the future, despite his several worries about what the immediate future may hold for us. He finishes with a story of an Iowa farmer's interesting reaction to him during a campaign related conversation.

In part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Jay McDaniel, April and Glen talk with Jay about his view of how a "virtuous life" was important to our nation's founders and is important in our current community, including those not just like ourselves. Jay explains the concept of process theology, and he suggests that a healthy religious life should have both "roots" and "wings." We also find out what gives him hope and helps him reach across divides, which includes beauty and the Bee Gees. We explore Jay's work in China to explore spirituality in that culture, and we hear about the importance of "moral humility" in reaching across divisions.

April and Glen chat with Dr. Jay McDaniel, a theologian, author & philosopher who specializes in Buddhism, process theology,  interfaith dialogue, and spirituality in an age of consumerism. Jay has published many books and articles, and he has a blog called "Open Horizons" [www.openhorizons.org], which he previously titled "Jesus, Jazz, and Buddhism." Our conversation with Jay includes his perspective of politics having taken on many of the roles typically associated with religion, and how he seeks to "find shared Joys" as a means of reaching across differences with others. We also explore Jay's work with interfaith dialog, and how, as a Christian, he values Buddhist philosophy in his spiritual journey.

In part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Jay Barth,  we cover a number of ideas, including the problems associated with an emphasis on "identity issues," the value in Arkansas of our ability to engage in "direct democracy" via citizen initiatives, and the Clinton Center's involvement (Braver Angels Arkansas is also a partner) in the Rockefeller Institute's "Civic Arkansas" project to improve citizen engagement in Arkansas. As a gay man, Jay understands and emphasizes the moral importance of people increasing their respect across various lines of identity in order to improve relationships and decrease conflict.  Finally, Jay talks about two Arkansas politicians for whom he has great respect - Asa Hutchinson and David Pryor - due in part because of their pragmatic approach to dealing with differences and the examples they offer of respect across the political aisle.

Glen and April talk with Dr. Jay Barth, a native of Arkansas, who is the Emeritus Professor of Politics at Hendrix College, where he taught for 26 years. Jay currently serves as Director of the Clinton Presidential Library, and he has earned numerous awards for his work in education and politics over the years. In this first part of our conversation with Jay, he provides a brief biographical outline of his early life, born into a largely progressive family from which he developed many of his values. Jay also explains the three entities that make up the Clinton Presidential Center, with an emphasis on being non-partisan in its functions and outreach.  While emphasizing the strong need for Americans to reach across political and other differences, he acknowledges the "Grand Canyon" divide our country presently is experiencing. To deal with this division, he speaks of values such as egalitarianism and resilience in helping us to continue our growth despite the obstacles.

In the second part of our interview with author and life coach Mike Starr, April and Glen hear several of his specific concepts about how important it is to use language carefully in managing one's life and relationships. Some words he considers dangerous or tyrannical and he offers alternative words and phrases that he suggests can improve how one approaches problems in one's life. Rather than address politics directly, he prefers to focus on relationships. Interestingly, he advocates shaming in some cases, given his concerns about current trends of what he sees as decreased personal responsibility and increased blaming of external factors among many people. He ends with a personal story about how he and his canoe partner managed difficulties in their relationship during the long float from Pittsburgh to New Orleans.

Mike Starr, life coach and author, speaks with April and Glen in this first part of our interview with him about his new book entitled, “Journey into Peace: A language for peace, progress, and healing,” in which he advocates that the everyday language we use causes much of the tension and suffering we have in our relationships. An entrepreneur who has managed a successful $100 million dollar a year manufacturing business, Mike is also a former nuclear submarine officer. He has also climbed Mt. Kilimanjaro and has canoed from Pittsburgh to New Orleans. He now lives in Arkansas.  His upbringing in a family who experienced first-hand the effects of the holocaust helped inform his values and approach to life. In his conversation with us, Mike emphasizes the importance of respect and empathy in dealing with others, including as a means to limit negative reactions to problematic behavior on the part of others. He shares some of his key thoughts from his book about how to have a better life and relationships.

In part two, April and Glen gain ideas from Janet Harris, Executive Director & CEO of the Rockefeller Institute on Petit Jean Mountain, for helping various groups of Arkansans facing difficult differences to join together in finding common ground for problem-solving. Other topics covered include the importance of relationships in improving working relationships during this process, which prompted this quote from Janet:  "the beauty of humanity is in that wrestling...". We review some of the initial efforts now underway with the institute and other groups (including our Braver Angels alliance) in helping promote civic engagement, which some data suggests is a particular problem in Arkansas. Other topics include addressing misinformation in our current media environment, Governor Rockefeller's initial motivation for running for office as a Republican (it's not what you might think), and a general description of how groups coming to the mountain for this process come to "wrestle with complexity" and how out of that process, she finds hope. Finally, Janet shares a remarkable story that started with her witnessing an aerial combat between two bald eagles while driving to work on top of Petit Jean mountain. The story serves as a fitting metaphor for the work of the Rockefeller Institute.