IRL: Online Life is Real Life

Mozilla

How does artificial intelligence change when people — not profit — truly come first? Join IRL’s host Bridget Todd, as she meets people around the world building responsible alternatives to the tech that’s changing how we work, communicate, and even listen to music. read less

Our Editor's Take

IRL: Online Life is Real Life is a tech podcast that shares discussions and news about the internet and digital world. Host Bridget Todd is a writer and speaker who pursues secure, equitable digital interactions for everyone. Bridget founded Unbossed Creative and hosts There Are No Girls On The Internet. She's worked with Planned Parenthood and MSNBC on digital strategy. She took over hosting duties for this show in 2022 to focus on ethical machine learning.

Veronica Belmont was the original host of the IRL: Online Life is Real Life podcast. Manoush Zomorodi followed her. They reminded listeners that online life and real life aren't separate. Veronica says people do things online that they wouldn't do in real life. Digital users can forget online actions affect reality. People let companies follow them from website to website, tracking them with cookies. In real life, people might not answer the door for someone selling cookies. Internet users stalk their Tinder dates, but in-person stalking is criminal behavior. Manoush and Veronica's seasons explore how to protect data and identities. They also study how social media changes people's bodies, personalities, and minds. Season two includes an interview with a man who went to rehab for internet addiction.

The award-winning IRL: Online Life is Real Life podcast continues to evolve. More bots than humans visit websites. In seasons six and seven, host Bridget Todd explores who AI benefits versus replaces. She introduces listeners to the experts working to make AI more trustworthy.

Bridget asks an important question. "Who should have the power over AI?" She interviews Laura Nolan, who quit her job at Google when she learned about Project Maven. Laura's task would involve creating air-gapped data centers. These would isolate machines from outside networks. When Laura asked why, she discovered the military would track people with drones. It would hasten their ability to identify and kill targets. AI-enabled weapons lack the common sense and discernment humans have. Laura now volunteers with Stop Killer Robots to protest autonomous weapons.

Bridget explains there's a line between what people can and should build with AI. This podcast helps define it. All seasons of IRL: Online Life is Real Life are available for listening.

read less

TechnologyTechnology

Play Trailer

Introducing IRL: Because Online Life is Real Life

Introducing IRL: Because Online Life is Real Life

Our online life is real life. We walk, talk, work, LOL and even love on the Internet – but we don’t always treat it like real life. Host Veronica Belmont explores this disconnect with stories from the wilds of the Web – and gets to the bottom of online issues that affect us all. Whether it’s privacy breaches, closed platforms, hacking, fake news, or cyber bullying, we the people have the power to change the course of the Internet, keeping it healthy, weird, and wonderful for everyone. IRL is an original podcast from Mozilla. For behind-the-scenes video of IRL Trailer production, and a bit more about why we're making this podcast, check out our blog.

Season 7

We’re Back! IRL Season 7: People Over Profit

We’re Back! IRL Season 7: People Over Profit

This season, IRL host Bridget Todd meets people who are balancing the upsides of artificial intelligence with the downsides that are coming into view worldwide. Stay tuned for the first of five biweekly episodes on October 10! IRL is an original podcast from the non-profit Mozilla.

With AIs Wide Open

With AIs Wide Open

Are today’s large language models too hot to handle? Bridget Todd digs into the risks and rewards of open sourcing the tech that makes ChatGPT talk.In their competitive rush to release powerful LLMs to the world, tech companies are fueling a controversy about what should and shouldn’t be open in generative AI.In this episode, we meet open source research communities who have stepped up to develop more responsible machine learning alternatives.David Evan Harris worked at Meta to make AI more responsible and now shares his concerns about the risks of open large language models for disinformation and more. Abeba Birhane is a Mozilla advisor and cognitive scientist who calls for openness to facilitate independent audits of large datasets sourced from the internet. Sasha Luccioni is a researcher and climate lead at Hugging Face who says open source communities are key to developing ethical and sustainable machine learning.Andriy Mulyar is co-founder and CTO of Nomic, the startup behind the open source chatbot GPT4All, an offline and private alternative to ChatGPT.IRL: Online Life is Real Life is an original podcast from Mozilla, the non-profit behind Firefox. In Season 7, host Bridget Todd talks to AI builders that put people ahead of profit.

The Humans in the Machine

The Humans in the Machine

They’re the essential workers of AI — yet mostly invisible and exploited. Does it have to be this way? Bridget Todd talks to data workers and entrepreneurs pushing for change.Millions of people work on data used to train AI behind the scenes. Often, they are underpaid and even traumatized by what they see. In this episode: a company charting a different path; a litigator holding big tech accountable; and data workers organizing for better conditions.Thank you to Foxglove and Superrr for sharing recordings from the the Content Moderators Summit in Nairobi, Kenya in May, 2023.Richard Mathenge helped establish a union for content moderators after surviving a traumatic experience as a contractor in Kenya training Open AI’s ChatGPT.Mercy Mutemi is a litigator for digital rights in Kenya who has issued challenges to some of the biggest global tech companies on behalf of hundreds of data workers.Krista Pawloski is a full time data worker on Amazon’s Mechanical Turk platform and is an organizer with the worker-led advocacy group, Turkopticon.Safiya Husain is the co-founder of Karya, a company in India with an alternative business model to compensate data workers at rates that reflect the high value of the data.IRL: Online Life is Real Life is an original podcast from Mozilla, the non-profit behind Firefox. In Season 7, host Bridget Todd talks to AI builders that put people ahead of profit.

Crash Test Dummies

Crash Test Dummies

Why does it so often feel like we’re part of a mass AI experiment? What is the responsible way to test new technologies? Bridget Todd explores what it means to live with unproven AI systems that impact millions of people as they roll out across public life. In this episode: a visit to San Francisco, a major hub for automated vehicle testing; an exposé of a flawed welfare fraud prediction algorithm in a Dutch city; a look at how companies comply with regulations in practice; and how to inspire alternative values for tomorrow’s AI.Julia Friedlander is senior manager for automated driving policy at San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency who wants to see AVs regulated based on safety performance data.Justin-Casimir Braun is a data journalist at Lighthouse Reports who is investigating suspect algorithms for predicting welfare fraud across Europe. Navrina Singh is the founder and CEO of Credo AI, a platform that guides enterprises on how to ‘govern’ their AI responsibly in practice.Suresh Venkatasubramanian is the director of the Center for Technological Responsibility, Reimagination, and Redesign at Brown University and he brings joy to computer science. IRL is an original podcast from Mozilla, the non-profit behind Firefox. In Season 7, host Bridget Todd shares stories about prioritizing people over profit in the context of AI.

Lend Me Your Voice

Lend Me Your Voice

Big tech’s power over language, means power over people. Bridget Todd talks to AI community leaders paving the way for open voice tech in their own languages and dialects.In this episode: AI builders and researchers in the US, Kenya and New Zealand who say the languages computers learn to recognize today will be the ones that survive tomorrow — as long as communities and local startups can defend their data rights from big AI companies.Halcyon Lawrence was an Associate Professor of Technical Communication and Information Design at Towson University in Maryland (via Trinidad and Tobago) who did everything Alexa told her to for a year.*Keoni Mahelona is a leader of Indigenous data rights and chief technology officer of Te Hiku Media, a Māori community media network with 21 local radio stations in New Zealand. Kathleen Siminyu is an AI grassroots community leader in Kenya and a machine learning fellow with Mozilla’s Common Voice working on Kiswahili voice projects. IRL: Online Life is Real Life is an original podcast from Mozilla, the non-profit behind Firefox. In Season 7, host Bridget Todd talks to AI builders that put people ahead of profit.*Sadly, following the recording of this episode, Dr. Halcyon Lawrence passed away. We are glad to have met her and pay tribute to her legacy as a researcher and educator. Thank you, Halcyon.

From Hollywood to Hip Hop, artists are negotiating new boundaries of consent for use of AI in the creative industries. Bridget Todd speaks to artists who are pushing the boundaries.It’s not the first time artists have been squeezed, but generative AI presents new dilemmas. In this episode: a member of the AI working group of the Hollywood writers union; a singer who licenses the use of her voice to others; an emcee and professor of Black music; and an AI music company charting a different path.Van Robichaux is a comedy writer in Los Angeles who helped craft the Writers Guild of America’s proposals on managing AI in the entertainment industry. Holly Herndon is a Berlin-based artist and a computer scientist who has developed “Holly +”, a series of deep fake music tools for making music with Holly’s voice.Enongo Lumumba-Kasongo creates video games and studies the intersection between AI and Hip Hop at Brown University. Her alias as a rapper is Sammus. Rory Kenny is co-founder and CEO of Loudly, an AI music generator platform that employs musicians to train their AI instead of scraping music from the internet.*Thank you to Sammus for sharing her track ‘1080p.’ Visit Sammus’ Bandcamp page to hear the full track and check out more of her songs.*

Mozilla’s IRL podcast is a Shorty Awards finalist - we need your help to win!

Mozilla’s IRL podcast is a Shorty Awards finalist - we need your help to win!

We’re excited to share that Mozilla's IRL podcast is a Shorty Awards finalist in the Science and Technology Podcast category! If you enjoy IRL you can show your support by voting for us.The Shorty Awards recognizes great content by brands, agencies and nonprofits. It’s really an honor to be able to feature the voices and stories of the folks who are putting people over profit in AI. A Shorty Award will help bring these stories to even more listeners. How to vote1. Go to mzl.la/shorty2. Click 'Vote in Science and Technology Podcast'3. create a username and password (it's easy, we promise!)4. Come back and vote every day until April 30thWe believe putting people over profit is award-worthy. Don’t you? Thanks for your support!

Season 6

Introducing IRL Season 6: AI in Real Life

Introducing IRL Season 6: AI in Real Life

AI is everywhere now. It’s part of healthcare, social media, maps, and even killer robots. But who has power over AI? And who is shifting that power? Join IRL’s new host, Bridget Todd, as she talks to technology builders and policy folks from around the world who are developing more trustworthy AI that puts people over profits.IRL is an original podcast from the non-profit Mozilla. For more on our series, visit us here.

The Tech We Won’t Build

The Tech We Won’t Build

Where should tech builders draw the line on AI for military or surveillance? Just because it can be built, doesn’t mean it should be. At what point do we blow the whistle, call out the boss, and tell the world? Find out what it’s like to sound the alarm from inside a big tech company.Laura Nolan shares the story behind her decision to leave Google in 2018 over their involvement in Project Maven, a Pentagon project which used AI by Google.Yves Moreau explains why he is calling on academic journals and international publishers to retract papers that use facial recognition and DNA profiling of minority groups.Yeshimabeit Milner describes how the non-profit Data for Black Lives is pushing back against use of AI powered tools used to surveil and criminalize Black and Brown communities.Shmyla Khan, describes being on the receiving end of technologies developed by foreign superpowers as a researcher with the Digital Rights Foundation in Pakistan.IRL is an original podcast from Mozilla, the non-profit behind Firefox. In Season 6, host Bridget Todd shares stories of people who make AI more trustworthy in real life. This season doubles as Mozilla’s 2022 Internet Health Report. Go to the report for show notes, transcripts, and more.

When an Algorithm is Your Boss

When an Algorithm is Your Boss

Gig workers around the world report directly to algorithms in precarious jobs created by secretive corporations. We take you to the streets of Quito, Ecuador where delivery workers are protesting against artificial intelligence, and we hear solutions from people in several countries on how to audit the algorithms and reclaim rights.Eduardo Meneses is gearing up with allies to ‘audit the algorithms’ of delivery platforms in Ecuador as the Global Head of Social Change at Thoughtworks.Dan Calacci at the MIT Media Lab is developing open source tools and systems that empower workers to take control of their data.Aída Ponce Del Castillo is working on AI regulation to protect the rights of platform workers as a lawyer with the European Trade Union Institute in Brussels.Yuly Ramirez is the general secretary of a coalition of digital platform workers in Ecuador and José Gonzalez is a delivery driver in Quito, Ecuador.IRL is an original podcast from Mozilla, the non-profit behind Firefox. In Season 6, host Bridget Todd shares stories of people who make AI more trustworthy in real life. This season doubles as Mozilla’s 2022 Internet Health Report. Go to the report for show notes, transcripts, and more.

An aerial picture can tell a thousand stories. But who gets to tell them? From above the clouds, our world is surveilled and datafied. Those who control the data, control the narratives. We explore the legacy of spatial apartheid in South Africa’s townships, and hear from people around the world who are reclaiming power over their own maps.Raesetje Sefala is mapping the legacy of spatial apartheid in South Africa as a computer vision researcher with Timnit Gebru’s Distributed AI Research Institute (DAIR).Astha Kapoor researches how communities and organizations can be ‘stewards’ of data about people and places as co-founder of the Aapti Institute in India.Michael Running Wolf is the founder of Indigenous in AI. He is working on speech recognition and immersive spatial experiences with augmented and virtual reality in Canada.Denise McKenzie is a location data expert who works with the global mapping organization PLACE to empower governments and communities to use advanced spatial data.IRL is an original podcast from Mozilla, the non-profit behind Firefox. In Season 6, host Bridget Todd shares stories of people who make AI more trustworthy in real life. This season doubles as Mozilla’s 2022 Internet Health Report. Go to the report for show notes, transcripts, and more.

The Truth is Out There

The Truth is Out There

Murky political groups are exploiting social media systems to spread disinformation. With important elections taking place around the world this year, who is pushing back? We meet grassroots groups in Africa and beyond who are using AI to tackle disinformation in languages and countries underserved by big tech companies.Justin Arenstein is the founder of Code for Africa, an organization that works with newsrooms across 21 countries to fact check, track and combat the global disinformation industry.Tarunima Prabhakar builds tools and datasets to respond to online misinformation in India, as co-founder of the open-source technology community, Tattle.Sahar Massachi was a data engineer at Facebook and now leads the Integrity Institute, a new network for people who work on integrity teams at social media companies. Raashi Saxena in India was the global project coordinator of Hatebase, a crowdsourced repository of online hate speech in 98 languages, run by the Sentinel Project. IRL is an original podcast from Mozilla, the non-profit behind Firefox. In Season 6, host Bridget Todd shares stories of people who make AI more trustworthy in real life. This season doubles as Mozilla’s 2022 Internet Health Report. Go to the report for show notes, transcripts, and more.

The AI Medicine Cabinet

The AI Medicine Cabinet

Life, death and data. AI’s capacity to support research on human health is well documented. But so are the harms of biased datasets and misdiagnoses. How can AI developers build healthier systems? We take a look at a new dataset for Black skin health, a Covid chatbot in Rwanda, AI diagnostics in rural India, and elusive privacy in mental health apps.Avery Smith is a software engineer in Maryland who lost his wife to skin cancer. This inspired him to create the Black Skin Health AI Dataset and the web app, Melalogic.Remy Muhire works on open source speech recognition software in Rwanda, including a Covid-19 chatbot, Mbaza, which 2 million people have used so far.Radhika Radhakrishnan is a feminist scholar who studies how AI diagnostic systems are deployed in rural India by tech companies and hospitals, as well as the limits of consent.Jen Caltrider is the lead investigator on a special edition of Mozilla’s “Privacy Not Included” buyer’s guide that investigated the privacy and security of mental health apps.IRL is an original podcast from Mozilla, the non-profit behind Firefox. In Season 6, host Bridget Todd shares stories of people who make AI more trustworthy in real life. This season doubles as Mozilla’s 2022 Internet Health Report. Go to the report for show notes, transcripts, and more.

Season 5

“The Weird Kids at the Big Tech Party” from ZigZag

“The Weird Kids at the Big Tech Party” from ZigZag

Season 4 of ZigZag is about examining the current culture of business and work, figuring out what needs to change, and experimenting with new ways to do it. Sign up for their newsletter and subscribe to the podcast for free wherever you get your podcasts.

The "Privacy Policy" Policy

The "Privacy Policy" Policy

Privacy policies: most apps and websites have them, buried away somewhere. These legal documents explain how the company collects, uses, and shares your personal data. But let's be honest, few of us actually read these things, right? And that passive acceptance says a lot about our complicated relationship with online privacy. In the Season 5 premiere of IRL, host Manoush Zomorodi speaks with Charlie Warzel, writer-at-large with the New York Times, about our complicated relationship with data and privacy — and the role privacy policies play in keeping things, well, confusing. You'll also hear from Parker and Lila, two young girls who realize how gaming and personal data intersect. Rowenna Fielding, a data protection expert, walks us through the most efficient ways to understand a privacy policy. Professor Lorrie Cranor explains how these policies have warped our understanding of consent. And privacy lawyer Jenny Afia explains why "privacy" is a base element of being human. IRL is an original podcast from Firefox. For more on the series go to irlpodcast.org. Charlie Warzel is an Opinion writer at large for the New York Times. You can get more insights from him about privacy online when you sign up for the Times’ Privacy Project Newsletter. If you’d like to learn more about privacy policies and their impact on our youth, check out Jenny Afia’s article on tech’s exploitative relationship with our children. This IRL podcast episode referenced several privacy policies, and we encourage you to read them. To start, here’s Firefox’s privacy policy. You’ll see that Firefox’s business model is not dependent on packaging your personal info. And, we hope you’ll find that our policy is easy-to-read, fully transparent, and specific. The other privacy policies referenced in this episode include: Google’s privacy policiesUber’s privacy policyMicrosoft’s privacy policyTwitter’s privacy policyFacebook’s privacy policy

Democracy and the Internet

Democracy and the Internet

Part of celebrating democracy is questioning what influences it. In this episode of IRL, we look at how the internet influences us, our votes, and our systems of government. Is democracy in trouble? Are democratic elections and the internet incompatible? Politico's Mark Scott takes us into Facebook's European Union election war room. Karina Gould, Canada's Minister for Democratic Institutions, explains why they passed a law governing online political ads. The ACLU's Ben Wizner says our online electoral integrity problem goes well beyond a few bad ads. The team at Stop Fake describes a massive problem that Ukraine faces in telling political news fact from fiction, as well as how they're tackling it. And NYU professor Eric Klinenberg explains how a little bit of offline conversation goes a long way to inoculate an electorate against election interference. IRL is an original podcast from Firefox. For more on the series go to irlpodcast.org. Early on in this episode, we comment about how more privacy online means more democracy offline. Here's more on that concept from Michaela Smiley at Firefox. Have a read through Mark Scott's Politico reporting on Facebook's European election war room. For more from Eric Klinenberg, check out his book, Palaces for the People: How Social Infrastructure Can Help Fight Inequality, Polarization, and the Decline of Civic Life. And, find out more about Stop Fake, its history, and its mission here.

The Internet's Carbon Footprint

The Internet's Carbon Footprint

Manoush Zomorodi explores the surprising environmental impact of the internet in this episode of IRL. Because while it’s easy to think of the internet as living only on your screen, energy demand for the internet is indeed powered by massive server farms, running around the clock, all over the world. What exactly is the internet’s carbon footprint? And, what can we do about it? Music professor Kyle Devine considers the environmental costs of streaming music. Geophysicist and pop scientist Miles Traer takes his best shot at calculating the carbon footprint of the IRL podcast. Climate journalist Tatiana Schlossberg explores the environmental influence we don’t know we have and what the web’s got to do with it. Greenpeace’s Gary Cook explains which tech companies are committed to renewable energy — and which are not. Kris De Decker tries powering his website with a homebrew solar power system. And, Ecosia's Chief Tree Planting Officer Pieter Van Midwoud discusses how his company uses online search to plant trees. IRL is an original podcast from Firefox. For more on the series go to irlpodcast.org Love the internet, but also love the environment? Here are some ways you can reduce your energy consumption — or offset it — while online. Learn more about Kyle Devine’s research on the environmental costs of music streaming. For more from Tatiana Schlossberg, check out her book, Inconspicuous Consumption: The Environmental Impact You Don’t Know You Have. Have a read through Greenpeace’s Click Clean Report that Gary Cook discusses in this IRL episode. You can find solar-powered Low Tech Magazine here and, if the weather is bad, you can view the archive here. As Pieter Van Midwoud notes, Ecosia uses the money it makes from your online searches to plant trees where they are needed most. Learn more about Ecosia, an alternative to Google Search. Here’s more about Miles Traer, the geophysicist who calculated the carbon footprint of the IRL podcast. And, if you’re interested in offsetting your personal carbon emissions overall, Carbonfund.org can help with that. The sound of a data center in this episode is courtesy of artist Matt Parker. Download his music here.

The Tech Worker Resistance

The Tech Worker Resistance

There's a movement building within tech. Workers are demanding higher standards from their companies — and because of their unique skills and talent, they have the leverage to get attention. Walkouts and sit-ins. Picket protests and petitions. Shareholder resolutions, and open letters. These are the new tools of tech workers, increasingly emboldened to speak out. And, as they do that, they expose the underbellies of their companies' ethics and values or perceived lack of them. In this episode of IRL, host Manoush Zomorodi meets with Rebecca Stack-Martinez, an Uber driver fed up with being treated like an extension of the app; Jack Poulson, who left Google over ethical concerns with a secret search engine being built for China; and Rebecca Sheppard, who works at Amazon and pushes for innovation on climate change from within. EFF Executive Director Cindy Cohn explains why this movement is happening now, and why it matters for all of us. IRL is an original podcast from Firefox. For more on the series go to irlpodcast.org Rebecca Stack-Martinez is a committee member for Gig Workers Rising. Here is Jack Poulson's resignation letter to Google. For more, read Google employees' open letter against Project Dragonfly. Check out Amazon employees' open letter to Jeff Bezos and Board of Directors asking for a better plan to address climate change. Cindy Cohn is the Executive Director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. EFF is a nonprofit that defends civil liberties in the digital world. They champion user privacy, free expression, and innovation through impact litigation, policy analysis, grassroots activism, and technology development.

The 5G Privilege

The 5G Privilege

‘5G’ is a new buzzword floating around every corner of the internet. But what exactly is this hyped-up cellular network, often referred to as the next technological evolution in mobile internet communications? Will it really be 100 times faster than what we have now? What will it make possible that has never been possible before? Who will reap the benefits? And, who will get left behind? Mike Thelander at Signals Research Group imagines the wild ways 5G might change our lives in the near future. Rhiannon Williams hits the street and takes a new 5G network out for a test drive. Amy France lives in a very rural part of Kansas — she dreams of the day that true, fast internet could come to her farm (but isn’t holding her breath). Larry Irving explains why technology has never been provided equally to everyone, and why he fears 5G will leave too many people out. Shireen Santosham, though, is doing what she can to leverage 5G deployment in order to bridge the digital divide in her city of San Jose. IRL is an original podcast from Firefox. For more on the series go to irlpodcast.org Read more about Rhiannon Williams' 5G tests throughout London. And, find out more about San Jose's smart city vision that hopes to bridge the digital divide.

Making Privacy Law

Making Privacy Law

The word “regulation" gets tossed around a lot. And it’s often aimed at the internet’s Big Tech companies. Some worry that the size of these companies and the influence they wield is too much. On the other side, there’s the argument that any regulation is overreach — leave it to the market, and everything will sort itself out. But over the last year, in the midst of this regulation debate, a funny thing happened. Tech companies got regulated. And our right to privacy got a little easier to exercise.Gabriela Zanfir-Fortuna gives us the highlights of Europe’s sweeping GDPR privacy law, and explains how the law netted a huge fine against Spain’s National Football League. Twitter’s Data Protection Officer, Damien Kieran explains how regulation has shaped his new job and is changing how Twitter works with our personal data. Julie Brill at Microsoft says the company wants legislators to go further, and bring a federal privacy law to the U.S. And Manoush chats with Alastair MacTaggart, the California resident whose work led to the passing of the California Consumer Privacy Act.IRL is an original podcast from Firefox. For more on the series go to irlpodcast.orgLearn more about consumer rights under the GDPR, and for a top-level look at what the GDPR does for you, check out our GDPR summary.Here’s more about the California Consumer Privacy Act and Alastair MacTaggart.And, get commentary and analysis on data privacy from Julie Brill, Gabriela Zanfir-Fortuna, and Damien Kieran.Firefox has a department dedicated to open policy and advocacy. We believe that privacy is a right, not a privilege. Follow our blog for more.