Mar 6 2024
The Ultimate Guide to Planning for Your Longevity by Preparing for Your Elder Years with Holly Carroccio, CFP
Planning ahead for elder care is a crucial aspect of financial planning that often gets overlooked. Kick off your journey towards securing your financial future with this latest episode - a conversation with seasoned Financial Advisor, Holly Carroccio, CFP. In this discussion, we explored the intricacies of elder care and long-term financial planning. Holly, with over 34 years of experience, divulged invaluable insights into the significance of long-term care insurance, estate planning, and being prepared for life's unexpected twists. Discover how to navigate the challenges of balancing financial responsibilities, caregiving, and planning for your own future. Learn from Holly's wealth of knowledge as we unravel the complexities of insurance, retirement planning, and caring for aging parents. If you find yourself in the midst of deciphering these financial intricacies, this episode is a must-listen. Holly's expertise and practical advice will empower you to make informed decisions and take proactive steps towards securing your financial future. Tune in to gain the insights needed to make wise choices and navigate the path toward a financially stable and fulfilling second season of life. Take charge of your sleep after 40 with my FREE E-BOOK! Learn "The Exact Steps it Takes to Restore Sleep" and start making real changes now! https://bit.ly/4cblYcT TRANSCRIPT Links to articles and documents referenced appear at the end of the interview text. Betty Murray: All right, Holly. So I, as I said in my introduction, you know, Holly, and I had this conversation and I was like, this is something we have to talk about. So, for anybody that has not listened to menopause mastery before. My mom went through a heart attack and stroke last year, and you know, one of the most valuable things is she made it to 88 going on 89 And that was her first time to be in the hospital, but it was a catastrophic heart attack and stroke and she went from basically living on her own doing everything to basically not being able to do activities of daily living. So, to say I was thrown into and immersed in this world of elder care would be putting it mildly. And to be honest, my parents did a lot to plan for it, but the amount of disruption in my life and what it would take as far as managing it was and still is overwhelming. And Holly has so much to give here, as a woman in this world, and I was like we have to have this conversation. You know, the other thing, Holly, I can tell you that after 20 years in practice, every woman I see is either doing it or will be doing it or has done it, period, end of sentence. We will spend our life taking care of others. And this is a big part of it. So, this is an important conversation. I'm so happy to have you. Holly: Thank you glad to be here. Absolutely. I think it's a great topic and so important. Betty: Yeah, so Holly I know you're a Certified Financial Planner and you obviously love working with individuals and especially business owners. How did how did you pick that as like this is what I'm going to do what did you always want to be in this world? Holly: You know, I get asked that question a lot. And I think the start of it was when I was in college, my dad went through a major financial setback right in the middle of college because there was a recession in the eighties in real estate. And he notified me that hey, you're on your own financially. From now on, and I was like, “Oh my gosh”, what am I going to do? How, how will I pay tuition, et cetera. And it just made me realize how things can come out of nowhere in life and how important it is to plan and so that became a very laser focus for me, and I was a finance major already. And I just thought, you know, I really want to help people that are struggling making financial decisions and I work a lot with entrepreneurs to who put all their money back into their company and I think that's okay. And it is until it isn't. And so, I really like helping business owners and just people in general prepare for their future. Betty: Yeah, yeah, I think it's, I have a lot of friends that are like, you know, I’ll just stick my head in the sand and I'm just going to you know, pretend it's not there. I am like, it's really important. Holly: Yeah, it’s coming, someday your future will come. Betty: It's kind of like menopause. You don't get a pass on menopause. You don't get a pass on the future. Let's dive in. Because like I said, this is this is such an important topic. So, what are some of the things that a woman that may be in this time period of life, maybe she hasn't done a lot of planning? Or, you know, the other thing that I find too, is often if their partner they sort of let the partner do the planning, and they're not necessarily involved, which is equally as frightening to me. But what are some of the things women in this time period of life really need to start thinking about? Because we're a little bit probably behind the eight ball if we haven't done anything. Holly: That's true. That's true. So, of course, retirement planning is important and if people are working with a financial professional, that's probably one of the main things that they're focused on. Where I see a lot of gap is in the risk management area, and in estate planning. And so, a lot of financial professionals focus in more on the wealth management and investing. But risk management is important because it doesn't matter if you're worth $500,000 or $5 million. If you have a risk come out of nowhere. It can really destroy your financial plan. And so, one of those risks is that we live a long time and longevity is great. You know, especially if they do all the things that you recommend and stay healthy. But you know, the double-edged sword of that is if you live long time, you may end up being frail and need help or you may have some morbidity issue late in life where you need care. And care is extremely expensive. It can run anywhere from 6005 to 21,000 a month1, depending on where you need it. How much you need it. Who's doing it, etc. And so, if we don't prepare for it, a lot of people assume, “Oh, Medicare covers that, or my health insurance covers that”. Or if I don't have any money, Medicaid will cover it. And so, and I can explain a little bit more some of those things. But, you know, and not only our care, but if you're young enough to think about your parents and have those open conversations with your parents. That's really important too because that risk can also fall on us. If our parents haven't prepared. Betty: Absolutely. I mean, it's the average woman will spend 18 years caring for elderly individuals, statistically, and at least one of those I'm sure there's a bunch of different variables, but if your family hasn't prepared, you know, could be a leading cause of loss of work for the woman taking care of them or you know, loss of income or loss of their own health. Yeah, I'd like for you to explain because I think people do you said like, oh, Medicare will pick it up or my secondary health insurance will pick it up or if I don't have enough then Medicaid will kick in. And that's absolutely not true. And I think it's important to kind of share where those caveats are, so people understand. Holly: So, the basics are, Medicare will cover the first up to 100 days of skilled care2. After a hospital stay. And my mom is a perfect example of that. She fell backwards last year and broke several ribs. And after she was in the hospital for a few days, about actually a couple of weeks. They moved her to skilled nursing rehab, and she was there for about two months and Medicare took care of that. And then she also had a Medicare Supplement. So, the Medicare Supplement picked up where the where Medicare left off. Where it started to cost money is when we got home, and I thought we would have the full 100 days. But we didn't. They basically said no, we've done all we can do for you. It's time for you to go home. And she still wasn't able to live independently at that point. And so, we had to hire a home caregiver at that point. Some other scenarios are, you know, Medicaid, which kicks in really once most of your financial resources are gone. And my mom's case with would not have helped her my mom doesn't have any net worth at all. So, you know, technically she, in certain circumstances she could qualify for Medicaid. The problem is Medicaid. Doesn't pay for home care. It also doesn't pay for assisted living. So, someone has to be really needing pretty severe levels of care before Medicaid is going to help them. And so, you know, having something to bridge that gap is extremely important. Betty: Oh my gosh, it is it is extremely important. And I don't know if your experience was like mine, but you know, my mom was in skilled living same thing, you know, had a stroke last function on the right side couldn't do any activities of daily living, and they and you would get a call like that day and they're like, your mom's going to be checked out tomorrow. Exactly. They don't get you noticed. No, they like, like, the social workers are like we're going to handle this. No, you don't. I was I was in Florida at a conference. The first time I left for just a few days because I had to do this professionally. Fighting with people on the phone. I was like, “you can't kick her out. I am not there.” I was like, at that point. I'm like, “I'll pay; I don't care. You can't kick her out. I'm not home”. So, it's not a good experience to have now. I think Medicare isn’t going to help you in any way. Holly: Exactly. Well, the other thing that happened was I thought my mom based on the picture they painted in the beginning, I thought she was going to be really pretty functional by the time she got out. And the physical therapy was pretty lame. And this was in a very high-quality facility. Very highly renowned, expensive etc. And she wasn't even close to being back to where she was when she left. So, we were very ill prepared. Betty: Yeah, I would, I would agree. My mom was at one of the best facilities and they were like, “Oh, we're going to get her up and walking” and I was like, “yeah, she's ‘Yeah, I can't do anything’.” After two and a half months there, it was just “Yeah, it was it's not all rainbows and you can't believe those statistics and how that how that's going to look”. So, let's so let's get into the planning part. So, I think we painted a scary picture. So, what are some strategies that women can really employ to balance the financial responsibilities of caregiving and their own retirement and elder care planning? Like let's kind of throw some things out on the table, because most of us don't really know what we need to do. Holly: One of the first things to consider is insurance. Because the whole idea of insurance is you're transferring that risk from yourself to the insurance company. And let's face it, nobody likes insurance. It's often an expense where you don't know if it's worth spending that money or not. And we buy car insurance and home insurance because we're required to, but we often don't answer some of the bigger risks in life, whether it's life insurance or disability, which is a potential loss of income when you have an accident or illness. And disability insurance is very important. But once you're beyond the working heirs, you can have long term care insurance as well. But it's one of those things that you have to plan way ahead because number one, you have to be healthy enough to qualify for it. And the longer you wait to buy it, the more expensive it is. Because as you get older it's more expensive because you're closer to the potential risk. So, the analogy I always give people is it's kind of like if you were trying to insure your house, but the garage is on fire. Probably going to be difficult. Right? So, you can actually think about buying long term care as early as 40. But I would say you know, there are plenty of people that wait until their 60s and it's not necessarily too late. It just gets a lot more expensive. So, if people are not insurable, then there's some other strategies, you know such as insurance with riders, you can sometimes be insurable for a life insurance policy, even if you're not insurable for long term care, because the criteria for getting those two types of insurance is different. So, you might qualify for a life insurance policy even if you don't qualify for long term care. So that's a secondary option. And then thirdly, there are some annuities out there that will supplement the cost of long-term care if you're not insurable at all. So, you know, those are those are some basic things just to try to offset the cost. And then there's also some legal things that you can do as well3. That, for example, having things set up where people can do things for you like having a durable power of attorney, where people can sign things for you. And obviously, you want a very, very trusted individual. You don't want somebody that might take advantage of you. And unfortunately, children sometimes do take advantage of their parents and family members do take advantage of their parents. So, you got to be really realistic about you know, what is the character of this person, what is their financial acumen? You know, just really thinking through the maturity of the person and then also having a medical power of attorney so that in physicians directives so that you can actually work with the medical team, get the information you need to help them make decisions, and, and also the authority to make decisions on their behalf. Betty: Yeah, I think, you know, as somebody I mean, I'm thankful I'm in the medical field and so I have an incredible command of what's happening in a hospital you know, way more than the average person and you know, I'm thankful my parents were actually heavy duty planners, to the extent that I was always like, can we stop talking about your death? Your Will, your long term care, like every day, they'd be like, you're going to…what is it, what is it? But I will say, even being highly prepared, it is a lot because not only are you probably having to all of a sudden make financial decisions and find out whether you have the financial capacity to do the things that you need to do. But you have to be an advocate in the healthcare system that is not really constructed to be positive for anybody in that experience. The most scary thing is to go to the hospital with somebody in a critical environment, because I just feel like our western medicine system conventionally is kind of broken. So, if you don't have somebody there, that's like hardcore advocate that is going to demand there's just a lot that can go wrong. And now you're having to do both. And I think that's what's really hard is especially as women we're going to be like, all of a sudden, we're the fiduciary financial planner, all this other stuff. We're taking care of the house, we're taking care of the bills, taking care of everything else. And oh, by the way, we're now Doogie Howser doctor. Got to figure this out because we have to also be their healthcare advocate. And it is it is a lot. Holly: Yeah, advocacy is so important. And I knew that in the back of my mind, but actually living it was a whole different thing and years ago, I knew my mom was not on a good financial trajectory and so I bought a long term care policy and a life insurance policy for her almost 20 years ago. And I know that's unusual. Most people don't do that. But I can't tell you how much it has helped saved my life in the last couple of months. Because I've got two kids in college, and I was coming out of pocket to pay for my mom's care. And I could have… I don't know what I would have done. I mean, I would have just had to eat into my retirement funds in order to pay for her care whether she was in assisted living or home or whatever. And so at least we have the financial part covered. But I have been beyond shocked at how hard you have to push the medical community to not act dismissive. And just feel like, and they don't say it, but it just feels like they think “oh, well, they're old”. You know, they're, they don't have that much time left. They're sick. So, they just minimize everything. And I feel like they were probably constantly rolling their eyes at me. Because I was pushing for, you know, please have Mom do this and please connect this dot and just the amount of coordination between all the care providers. And you know, for example, I went over there on Sunday because we had a new caregiver, and I needed to give her an orientation to the diet that my mom is on and their supplements and you know where everything is, and I was over there for two hours on Sunday. So, there's just there's a lot of advocacy and organization like you said. Betty: Yeah, I mean, I think it really is there's a whole need out there, so anybody out there that wants to do an entrepreneurial venture, find a way to create a company that can be medical advocates with families in the medical system particularly in an acute care situation because it if you are unaware or I just there's too many there's too many passing of the batons in the emergency rooms and you know intensive care units where if somebody's not there, I really wonder if somebody… if your family member will work it out. We had an incredible cardiologist. He was actually a cardiologist that cared for my dad 10 years ago. When he walked in the room. I remembered him and I was like, “Oh my God, thank God you're here,” you know, but I can tell you one of the neurologists I was like, “You will not see my mother again. I don't care who's on this floor. You're done.” I mean, I just could - she was she because she was very dismissive. She's a young 89. She's decompensating you need to go get your DNR and I was like “you don't even know my mother or that she was actually fit and actually healthier than you yesterday.” And you know, and it was just very dismissive. And I think especially somebody that's already traumatized by what's going on. To walk into that environment is just frightening. And then to make these decisions, so all of a sudden, you and I are put in this position where we've got to all of a sudden take care of an entire another household, an entire another human being. And I was lucky I also my mom had a long term care policy. But you know, there's a financial thing that happens even if you have that you have a 90-day period at a minimum that you have to cover everything. Yeah, until it kicks in and I don't know about you but mine was six months because there was a whole lot of paperwork. Holly: Yes, fortunately, I'd seen previously how long it takes and all the paperwork involved. And so, I started it almost day one, gathering all that information. And so, it did start paying pretty quickly after the 90 days, but it made me aware as a financial planner, how important it is for people to have probably six months set aside for that timeframe because I think for most people, it will take probably a good six months, like you said, and you'll get the money if a claim goes through. You'll get the money back for the 90 days that were missed. But you know, that second 90 days, I'm sure you experienced that but you know, still you're coming out of pocket or you're you know, trying to get to your parents assets to cover it. And what if they're incapacitated and one of them uh, you know, then all the things to help you have that authority to do that for them. Betty Murray: Absolutely, yeah. Because yeah, so basically the end game there is you're going to have to front load the costs, so you're going to have to pony up the money and then eventually get back. After that 90 days, whatever else you came out of pocket, and it still doesn't cover everything. So even if you have long term care, there are certain things it does and does not cover so it's not like all of a sudden you're in a zero sum game, where I think that's important too. Holly: Yeah, we have we have supplemental services. that are going on like, you know, an exercise trainer, where I hired an extra person to do not really physical therapy, but you know, just exercise… extra exercise. And sometimes the caregivers can't transport them because their car's not working. So, if I need somebody to take her to a doctor's appointment, I need somebody else to do that. And maybe I'm not available because I'm working. So, I'm paying another caregiver, that's really a friend that does professional services like that, you know, to transport to appointments, or come over and get ready in the morning before the other caregiver gets there. So yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of other things that you can end up spending money on, that are over and above what a policy would cover. Betty Murray: Absolutely So, so we kind of alluded to this but I think let's kind of wrap up like the taking care of parents like so what are the things if we were to give like a laundry list? What are the things somebody in our age group would need to think? About to check in on your parents and make sure that they do so, you know, just open that door because a lot of families don't like talking about this stuff, but it's like super important. Holly: Well, one of the first things is deciding the type of care they need. Because there's really three main types of care…you have home care, which works really well if you have a family member that lives with them like a spouse who is still functional. Or you if you have an adult child nearby, or a niece or nephew or an advocate, just somebody that's near who can check in with those caregivers and kind of do surprise visits, things like that. Assisted Living is okay if they qualify to move to a facility and pare down all of their things to a smaller living space, and where they maybe need more consistent care like in a 24-hour period, and also meal preparation and transportation and so forth. So assisted living is for a little bit more advanced care, or if you don't have that advocate. And then nursing home is when somebody has memory issues or dementia or if they've got physical problems where they need more skilled medical care. So, figuring out what type of care they need, and there's consultants that help with that that are third parties. Those are wonderful. They'll really help you assess, and they'll help you figure out where's a good quality place based on what their needs are and a quality agency that will provide that homecare who can also take them to appointments. Somebody's got to get them to their checkups and their follow ups and all of that. Somebody needs to be able to fill out paperwork for them. Somebody needs to if they are at home, do meal planning, grocery shopping, medical supply delivery. Also, there’s the paperwork for the long term care policy if they have one, and just other medical paperwork. For example, you know, my mom has an appointment this week, and her cardiologist needed to sign off on it. They were faxing it to the doctor. The doctor wasn't responding. So, they're reaching out to me saying hey, we didn't get this form. We can't do the procedure unless we get this form. There's a lot of dot-connecting, that goes along with paying their bills and getting all connected in to all their finances. I've got another parent that is 94 years old, and I'm helping him manage all the financial issues. I've got a sibling that's handling all the medical and all the physical things and I'm doing the financial. And so, you know, I've gotten connected with his financial professionals, his attorney, and his CPA and just helping coordinate all of those things. So yeah, I mean, that's a good basic list. Betty Murray: it's a lot you know, it's so it's a good even this far out like, you know, eight, probably nine months out, it's still a good 10 to 20 hours a week of work, just to manage stuff to keep your fingers on it. You know, to know what's going on and I was I mean, I will say I was thankful that I was ready because my mom and dad had a will had a durable power of attorney medical power of attorney, all those things. And so I was already on the paperwork, but I had already started going to appointments like I was on all the bank paperwork I was on, you know, I knew their investor, support certified financial planner. I was like I need I needed to be involved and I'm so thankful because it wasn't like I was just having my first conversation with them. And sometimes families are nervous because I sort of hold that stuff close to the chest. Oh, yeah. What you're doing is doing yourself and your family a disservice if they are unaware of that and don't have a relationship already. Holly: Yeah, I think that old school thinking of my kids will find out what I have at the reading of the will. That doesn't really work anymore. Because people do live longer and sometimes, they can be ill for a number of years before they do pass; and they need their kids involved helping them or they need family, or they need advocacy. Betty Murray: Absolutely. So, let's talk about us. What so we've we're talking about caring for parents, so obviously people are probably now like, “Oh no, I’ve got to hope I don't have to do that”. Well, you probably will. But at least you now know kind of some things to think about. Let's talk about the top things that somebody in our age group really needs to like make sure they get done now if they don't have it. Holly: I would say figuring out what the cost of a long term care policy would be and finding a way to include that in the budget. And there's a lot of different types of policies. There's the traditional policy where it just is more like health insurance where if you have an expense that will reimburse you but if you never have the expense, it’s use it or lose it. There's a handful of companies that still offer that. The problem is that that type of insurance has gotten more and more expensive over the years. So, a lot of people are reluctant to pay for it because they feel like they're wasting money if they never need care. There are other Hybrid Type policies that are combinations of life insurance and long term care or an annuity and long term care. So that's where I'm seeing most people go nowadays. So, I would just say, you know, meet with a financial professional, talk to them about how this this part of your life is going to be impacted and get them to help you or refer you to somebody if they don't do insurance. Get them to help you find somebody that specializes in that. So that you can look at it and figure out if that's something that you can cover and if your health will permit it. I'd say that'd be the number one thing. Also just get your estate plan in order. My understanding is that 60% of people don't have wills4, or estate planning documents. And it's something that can be done relatively inexpensively with online type resources, or you can go to a board-certified estate planning attorney. Those are things that don't take that long to get done. And it doesn't necessarily have to be super expensive. And just make sure that you've done that loving thing for your partner or your spouse, and your family. You know in the event, if and when something happens to you. Those are probably two of the main things and then you know just preparing for retirement in general; we are everyday getting closer to retirement age. And I think sometimes people build up guilt and shame over maybe not having done some things earlier in life. But just start where you are where or whatever, you know wherever you are and start there and something is better than zero planning. So those three things: insurance for long term care, estate planning and then planning for your retirement. Betty Murray: Yeah, and I think I want to kind of reiterate this the idea of having a will or a trust or something like that, because I think people don't really realize they hear the word probate, and they think it's this weird thing over here. That's kind of a legal thing, but no one has to worry about it. But what that means is, your money is tied up until the courts go through all of it. And I don't know how long it lasts in Texas, but I think it's a long time. So, you may not have access to resources even though you might be a spouse of somebody or a child of somebody, literally you can't do anything with the assets to help manage the person that's unwell. Is that correct? Holly: That is correct. So, if people have wills, they're relying on that court system to give them authority if they're the executor of the will. And then number two, give them access. And you've got to hire an attorney that will represent you in probate court. So, and then it can like you said it can take a long time. So, we used to say probate in Texas was inexpensive and quick, but I hear that’s no longer true. And so, avoiding probate is good and you can do that through having things titled where they have beneficiary designations, like retirement accounts, insurance, annuities, you know, those all have designated beneficiaries, and then should go straight to that person and avoid probate. People also often will set up a trust where the trust will own an asset if it doesn't have a beneficiary designation, then that enables them to pre appoint someone that will be the secondary authorized person, so they don't have to go to court to make that happen. In setting up a trust, they might pay a little bit more ahead of time to get a trust in place, but it can save them time and money in the long run and make it a lot easier for their heirs, if they prepare in advance5. Betty Murray: Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's not… that's like that's a lot of legal stuff. And that's not your forte or cup of tea. But I think it's, it's important because it's not something that we get taught in like we need to, we need a financial ownership, maturity class, in college in high school to actually understand this stuff because if you don't seek it out, you're not going to get that information. Holly: Yeah, I don't know why they don't teach personal finance in high school, and college. It should be a required course. Because these are basic practical things that people need to know. And you're right unless you seek it out. We don't learn it. Just you know, there's no automatic course out there that we get enrolled in to help us with these things. Betty Murray: Yeah, no, it's absolutely right. So, you bring me to another question because we've kind of talked about this idea of your heirs or somebody that's automatically going to be there to help you when your time comes to need right all of us wants to want to have this really long lifespan and I you know, I joke about it, I was like, “No, I want to wake up dead one day, like, nothing happens. I'm totally healthy” but that's not statistically what's going to happen. Right, and my mom being a perfect example of that literally the first time she'd ever spent time in hospital at 88 years old, right so that's what you want but she didn't get a choice on where the endpoint happened yet you know, because she would have probably chosen differently, honestly. But, you know, my reality is I have no children. By choice. That was my choice. I don't have children. And some people may not even have siblings or nieces, nephews, and so that leaves like a bigger open, you know, thing, right? Because you might have a spouse or a partner, but they may go before you what, what do you do when you're me? Right? And there's a high probability that I'm going to be the last one standing, and I don't have anybody to take care of me or I might have kids and they won't. Holly: Yeah, that last comment is very relevant because sometimes people are estranged from their children. Or, you know, they just don't have a great relationship. And so just because we have children, doesn't mean we can count on them. Of course, I'm grooming My children now. “Be sure and take care of your mom!” You know, later in life. See, I'm taking care of your grandmother. So, I'm trying to train them now, ha-ha. But um, but in all seriousness, to me, it just says how important it is to plan ahead and be proactive, and to come up with the pieces ahead of time. And I've run across some really good resources. One of them is that there are companies out there, for example, there's one called Accountable Aging, and they're here in the Dallas area, and also in Austin. And they provide a variety of services including transportation appointments and bill paying and things like that and, they're bonded and set up as fiduciaries. There are professional advocacy services, and professional services for the estate plan. If you don't have somebody to name is an executor or trustee. You can hire professionals for that. I also met a wonderful lady named Carol Marak, who wrote a book called Solo and Smart and she wrote this book out of necessity, because she cared for one of her parents. And then she started thinking, “oh my gosh, I'm single. I don't have any children. I don't have any siblings. What will I do? Who will take care of me? And who will be MY advocate?” such as all of the things that she did for her parents. So, she wrote a book about it. She's been a national speaker. She's been on TV, so she's got some really good recommendations in there about how you set all that up ahead of time to make sure that you've got a system in place. And so, I think there's a lot of resources out there. You just got to think ahead. Betty Murray: Yeah, yeah. I think I think even if somebody has children and things like that, it's probably a good idea just to also kind of look into these resources. Because, again, you there's no guarantees that something won't happen to your child or that they're going to they won't become estranged or whatever that might be. I think, you know, culturally, you and I were talking a little bit about this before we got on the call on the recording. But culturally in the United States, we don't do multi-generational living where if you go to a lot of European countries and Mexico and they just they have a embracing of multiple, multiple generations, and we don't really have that, right, if we're the most host of reasons, right for a host of reasons. And so, there's a likelihood that somebody's going to need outside assistance. Holly: Yeah, I think because of our culture, like, even though my husband I talked about what if my mom came to live with us, and it would be an enormous strain on our marriage to do that. And so, you know, and I think that's, that's a very common situation, and I love my mom, but I just can't live with her since I was 18. We’ve just got to have other systems in place to address that. Betty Murray: Yeah, I think I think that's an important part. I grew up with my grandmother living with us as a as a child. And I think like most families, there's always some family dynamic. That's a little like sketchy. But as you know, I was as a teenager tween, you know, you'd walk in the room and you're like, Okay, everybody, can we call the elephant out? Right? Because my dad and my mother and his mother-in-law didn't really get along very well. And a lot of it was really my mother-in-law. I mean, she was born in 1894. Right? She just missed that, you know, this is 80s. Right? So, she was very old and very kind of set in her ways. And she just was opinionated and didn't know when to keep it to herself, right. So, it was difficult, but even as a kid, it was like, I feel like I had a loss like eight years of my life because it was just, I just didn't want to be in the home. I'm like, I don't want to be here. So, when we started, we moved into the house we're in. It has an area on the other side of the kitchen, which happens to be my office that was like a bedroom, a bathroom and what could have been a living room and my husband and I are kind of chatting about in case my other mom My mom ever had to move in and I know full well from get go I'm like never going to happen. Never going to happen. My mom and I get along because we understand our boundaries with each other. And we're very different individuals and I love her, but I would my husband and I would never have made it through that. Just it's just the reality. So, I think that's the other thing is we have to really be honest about being prepared in planning. And also, what does it do to our family if we are unprepared because it is
