In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I have the pleasure of speaking with Ariane David, PhD, an insightful thinker and academic who delves into the principles of non-positional thinking and its profound impact on personal and organizational learning. We explore how W. Edwards Deming's theories on quality and continuous improvement intersect with modern challenges in digital transformation, particularly within IT, healthcare, and manufacturing sectors.Dr. David's introduces the four principles of non-positional thinking, beginning with the 'uncertainty principle,' which emphasizes intellectual humility and the acceptance that our perceptions and conclusions might be flawed. This acknowledgment opens the door to 'curiosity,' the second principle, fostering a desire to explore and understand rather than to confirm biases. The discussion progresses to the 'principle of discernment,' where information is analyzed critically to separate useful insights from noise. Lastly, Ariane discusses 'courage,' which is essential for challenging our own assumptions and committing to a path of genuine understanding and improvement .Throughout the conversation, Dr. David highlights the dangers of 'adaptive learning' in organizations—learning driven by fear and survival instincts—which often prevents genuine insight and improvement. She contrasts this with 'generative learning,' which encourages a blame-free environment where mistakes are seen as opportunities for growth and learning, thereby fostering a culture that supports continuous improvement and aligns closely with Deming's philosophy.You can find Dr. Ariane David's LinkedIn below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/arianedavid/

In the second episode of my two-part discussion with Bill Bellows, we explore the nuanced realms of quality management, variation, and integration, drawing from the rich legacy of W. Edwards Deming and Genichi Taguchi, and their profound impact on industries ranging from automotive to aerospace.Bill Bellows shares enlightening perspectives on the historical collaboration between Ford and Mazda, illuminating the stark differences in their approaches to quality and production. He discusses the importance of minding the gap, not just in terms of parts but in the broader context of integration and systems thinking. This episode delves into the philosophical underpinnings of quality management, touching upon the concepts of red pen and blue pen companies, and the significance of aiming for systemic improvements rather than mere compliance with specifications.The conversation extends beyond the specifics of automotive engineering, drawing parallels with software development, healthcare systems, and manufacturing processes. Bellows emphasizes the critical role of managing variation not just at the part level but as an integral part of a coherent system. This approach, he argues, is key to achieving superior quality, functionality, and customer satisfaction.You can find Bill Bellows LinkedIn here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In the first part of a two-part series with Bill Bellows, we delve deep into the essence of system thinking and its pivotal role in shaping organizations. Bellows leads us on a journey exploring the nuanced differences between 'Red Pen' and 'Blue Pen' organizations, and beyond, into the realms of 'Me' versus 'We' and the collective impact of every straw on the camel's back.Bellows opens the discussion with his famous 'Red Pen Blue Pen' exercise, a metaphorical exploration that distinguishes two types of organizations based on quality and system thinking. He illustrates how small details, like the ease of cap removal on pens, can symbolize the deeper operational philosophies and outcomes of organizations. This exercise not only serves as a tool for introspection but also highlights the broader implications of systemic thinking in operational excellence.Expanding further, Bellows introduces the concepts of 'Me' versus 'We' and the allegory of the last straw, pushing us to contemplate the collective responsibility versus individual blame within organizational contexts. Through these discussions, he underscores the importance of a systemic perspective that fosters collaboration, continuous improvement, and a shared understanding of goals and challenges.You can find Bill Bellows on LinkedIn here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I had the pleasure of engaging with Dave Nave, a multifaceted expert with a rich background in engineering, quality improvement, and business management consulting. Through his work and studies, Nave has delved deep into W. Edwards Deming's philosophies, applying these principles across various sectors with notable emphasis on manufacturing.Our conversation explored Nave's initial skepticism towards quality improvement methodologies and his transformative encounter with Deming's teachings. Nave vividly described his early career experiences, where he challenged the concepts of process variability and predictability, only to find empirical evidence that humbled his perspective. This journey led him to embrace Deming's methodologies, seeking further education and eventually contributing to quality improvement initiatives in the defense industry and beyond.Nave's experiences with the Deming Scholars MBA program at Fordham University stood out as a pivotal moment in his career. Immersed in Deming's teachings, he gained insights from esteemed professors and applied these lessons to real-world challenges. His anecdotes about the practical applications of Deming's principles, especially in the context of manufacturing assembly lines and quality control, were particularly enlightening.The conversation also touched upon the challenges and nuances of implementing quality improvement methodologies within organizations. Nave shared stories from his consulting work, highlighting the importance of systemic thinking and the pitfalls of siloed approaches to process improvement.Dave Nave's LinkedIn can be found below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/davenave/

In this episode of Profound,  I talk with Dr. Khai Minh Pham, whose unique approach to artificial intelligence challenges conventional paradigms and opens new frontiers in AI research and application. Dr. Pham, with his extensive background in both medicine and artificial intelligence, shares his journey towards creating a distinctive AI framework that prioritizes knowledge over data, steering clear of the traditional data-centric methodologies that dominate the field.Dr. Pham recounts his early realization of the limitations inherent in human cognitive processes and how this propelled him to explore AI as a means to augment human memory and decision-making capabilities. Central to this episode is Dr. Pham's critique of the prevailing AI models that rely heavily on data processing and pattern recognition. He introduces his concept of "macro connectionist AI," a system that mimics human reasoning more closely by forming high-level knowledge representations rather than merely processing data inputs. This approach, according to Dr. Pham, not only enhances AI's problem-solving capabilities but also significantly reduces the computational resources required, challenging the current industry trend towards increasingly complex and energy-intensive AI systems.you can find Dr. Pham's LinkedIn below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/khai-minh-pham/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I engage in an insightful conversation with Richard Steele, founder and president of Peeker Services. We explore his journey from rebuilding locomotives to embracing W. Edwards Deming's principles, leading to a radical change in his company's management practices, particularly around performance appraisals and bonus systems. Steele shares transformative moments, like presenting his new pay program to the Detroit Deming study group, including Dr. Deming himself, and the eventual transition of his company into an employee-owned structure. The dialogue delves into the practical applications of Deming's theories in the workplace, the power of collective problem-solving, and the importance of fostering a culture of learning and adaptation. Finally, we take a look at some of Dick's critiques of Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge.Steele's narrative demonstrates a successful integration of system thinking and the profound impact of shifting from traditional merit pay to a more inclusive and equitable model, redefining quality and performance metrics within his organization.Richard's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-steele-6586477/

In part two of their discussion, John Willis engages in a deep dive with Bill Bellows on the multifaceted world of safety, quality, and systems thinking. Inspired by the pioneering work of Sydney Decker, Dr. Woods, and Erik Hollnagel, they explore the nuanced perspectives on safety and quality that transcend conventional understanding.John and Bill navigate the intricate connections between thoroughness, efficiency, and effectiveness, drawing parallels to the foundational principles of Deming and Ackoff. They dissect the Efficiency-Thoroughness Trade-Off (ETTO) principle introduced by Hollnagel, pondering its implications in the context of operational safety and quality management.The conversation further delves into Russ Ackoff’s insights on systems thinking, the DIKW (Data, Information, Knowledge, Wisdom) model, and the profound impact of understanding complex systems on improving organizational outcomes. Bill shares anecdotes from his experiences, illustrating the practical application of these concepts in real-world settings, including his work at Rocketdyne and with the Deming community.Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/Show Notes: 1) Ackoff videos on Deming Cooperative, https://demingcooperative.org/ackoffvideos/2) Ackoff on DIKUW - article, https://faculty.ung.edu/kmelton/Documents/DataWisdom.pdf3) Ackoff on DIKUW - video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzS5V5-0VsA&t=21s 3) Deming and Ackoff - excerpts of Volume 21 of the Deming Library, ("A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers”),https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MJ3lGJ4OFo 4) Deming and Ackoff - transcript of full recorded of Volume 21 of the Deming Library ,https://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/ackoff_center_weblog/2011/04/a-converstaion-between-russell-ackoff-and-edward-deming.html5) Ackoff - Memories, https://www.amazon.com/Memories-Hardcover-Collectors-Russell-Ackoff/dp/09565379956) Ackoff - Differences That Make a Difference, https://www.amazon.com/Differences-that-Make-Difference-Distinctions/dp/1908009012/

In this episode, I sit down once again with Bill Bellows to explore the interconnected nature of quality thinking. Our conversation ventures beyond traditional boundaries, drawing on Bill's unique insights into systemic thinking and its implications for organizational excellence.We delve into the philosophy of interconnectedness, illustrating how quality extends far beyond the superficial, embedding itself into every facet of production and service. Bill shares enlightening perspectives on the importance of viewing organizations as whole systems, where every element is interrelated and changes in one part can ripple through others.Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/Show Notes: 1) Ackoff videos on Deming Cooperative, https://demingcooperative.org/ackoffvideos/2) Ackoff on DIKUW - article, https://faculty.ung.edu/kmelton/Documents/DataWisdom.pdf3) Ackoff on DIKUW - video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzS5V5-0VsA&t=21s 3) Deming and Ackoff - excerpts of Volume 21 of the Deming Library, ("A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers”),https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MJ3lGJ4OFo 4) Deming and Ackoff - transcript of full recorded of Volume 21 of the Deming Library ,https://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/ackoff_center_weblog/2011/04/a-converstaion-between-russell-ackoff-and-edward-deming.html5) Ackoff - Memories, https://www.amazon.com/Memories-Hardcover-Collectors-Russell-Ackoff/dp/09565379956) Ackoff - Differences That Make a Difference, https://www.amazon.com/Differences-that-Make-Difference-Distinctions/dp/1908009012/

I have a great discussion between Derek Lewis and John Willis, focusing on the historical and philosophical underpinnings of quality control and those who were paramount to the movement including Walter Shewhart, W. Edwards Deming, and Joseph M. Juran. The dialogue includes anecdotes, critiques, and appreciations of Shewhart and Deming's work, including a dramatic rendition of a critique by Juran. Additionally, we touch on the dynamics of recognition and credit within the field, highlighting the broader system thinking introduced by Deming to Japanese industries and contrasting perspectives on their contributions to quality control.

I have an enlightening conversation with Adam Hawkins in this episode. We dive deep into W. Edwards Deming's seminal perspectives on quality. Our dialogue explores how this expansive framing of quality requires connecting producers and consumers in a broader system. We relate these concepts to service level objectives (SLOs) and their role in quantifying acceptable loss balanced against keeping systems valuable. This leads us to the profound realization that quality is contextual, varying across different systems and business needs.Among other topics, we touch on the intricacies of variation, Deming's red bead experiment, the challenges of measurement and pragmatism, bringing quality thinking into software, and the difficulty of conveying Deming's multifaceted ideas to novices. Our exchange centers on constructing shared mental models to apply Deming's deep knowledge in today's digital landscape.Adam’s LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/hi-adam-hawkins/Software Delivery in Small Batches Podcast: https://smallbatches.fm/people/adam-hawkinsPrecision, Accuracy, and Two Quality Questions: Unpacking a conversation between John Willis and Bill Bellows on Taguchi's approach to qualityhttps://softwarekaizen.substack.com/p/c83a7c05-d5b0-4cb3-93db-0e359108e3bb

In this second part of a two-part series, I speak with Bill Bellows about W. Edwards Deming's influence on Japanese manufacturing, specifically Toyota. We discuss Deming's relationship with Genichi Taguchi and how their quality philosophies intersect and complement each other. We explore Deming and Taguchi's differing notions of quality - meeting specifications versus minimizing loss to society. Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In this first part of a two-part series, I chat with Bill Bellows in this episode. Bill gave us a little history of his introduction to Genichi Taguchi's methods and quality concepts while working as an engineer in the jet engine industry. We explore key ideas around variability reduction, precision vs accuracy, process capability, and Taguchi's loss function. Our conversation looks at the difference between traditional quality approaches focused on specifications and Taguchi's view of quality based on quantifying loss and variation. We riff on analogies using a dartboard and Deming's red bead experiment to clarify Taguchi's perspectives on "loss" and variation even within specification limits. Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

I geek out with Tracy Bannon in this episode. Tracy gave us a little history of MITRE and her work at MITRE. DevOps, DevSecOps, and SRE, were also discussed from words to movements. We explore QA and risk controls as well as modern governance. Our conversation ended with a great discussion about generative AI, specifically ChatGPT.  Tracy can be found on Linkedin here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracylbannon/

This episode features Mike Harris, a Tester at Geckoboard who self-identifies as a Tester. We discuss how vital Dr. Deming's ideas are to testing, especially around the System of Profound Knowledge, with Mike, who has worked in testing for 20 years. It is another example of Dr. Deming's ideas' relevance in the modern era. Here's a summary:Introducing Mike Harris.0:02Deming’s journey of profound knowledge and the importance of systems thinking.5:22How do we verify what we think we know?11:20Driving out fear in your team.17:36The tyranny of the prevailing style of management and how to break it.23:45What is agile? How did it start?29:31Words matter to Deming.37:42Do you find that most people in the testing community don’t have a clear operational definition?43:30Links:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-harris-citp-mbcs-5a75733/https://testandanalysis.home.blog/

In this episode, Donna and I discuss what's wrong with the words Root Cause and Root Cause Analysis. Our original thoughts and the differences between the old and new meanings are discussed. Undoubtedly, Dr. Deming's words matter, and we try to figure out what he would have said.

I'm John Willis (Botchagalupe). For almost ten years, I have been researching and writing a book about Dr. Deming. About two years ago, I got serious about the work, and then the pandemic struck. I should write this book if I ever intend to do so. Two years ago, I started working with a wonderful consultant, Derek Lewis. He has a phenomenal voice that you get to hear. I have worked with him for two years. After about a year of writing, I naively thought I was done. A year later, with five drafts, I could continue for another five years. However, I have finally begun working with a publisher. There will be some excellent news on that front. Hopefully, the audio, final, and Kindle versions will be available this summer. The paperback might not be available until the end of the year due to printing and supply chain issues.There are two things to note about this edition. One, it is an early version, so there will be changes when we finally produce and publish the production audio version. Two, I used a dramatic version for this edition. To add excitement, I added some voiceovers and minor sound effects. I hope you enjoy listening to this audiobook’s first three chapters. If you would like an early copy to finish the book, please contact botchagalupe@gmail.com. However, it won't be a version for distribution. The final version may or may not change. I hope you enjoy the first three chapters; the actual final book will have 20 chapters, as it stands at 350 pages.

I interview a longtime Dr. Deming fan and early DevOps pioneer in this episode. Donna has a similar background to mine, where we both worked before the age of clouds and modern infrastructure. You are going to enjoy this podcast. Here are some links for follow-up knowledge. Donna Knapp LinkedinReCommoning: Transitioning Organisations with Jabe BloomThe Visible Ops HandbookTRADE-OFFS UNDER PRESSURE: HEURISTICS AND OBSERVATIONS OF TEAMS RESOLVING INTERNET SERVICE OUTAGESWhat Would Deming Do

Dennis is the founder of Sergent Results Group. Sergent Results Group was founded in 2000 and offers professional coaching, consulting, leadership learning, quality and productivity training and expert facilitation. The company created Continual Quality Improvement (CQI) Academy™ for leaders and managers seeking to understand the scientific improvement methods of W. Edwards Deming and others. Dennis describes his experiences with Dr. Deming's teaching. I am a huge fan of another Deming student, Ron Moen, Dennis has worked with Ron on a couple of occasions. If you are a Dr. Deming fan, this is another great podcast where you get here more untold stories. I hope you enjoy. https://www.linkedin.com/in/sergentresultsgroup/

In this episode Damon Edwards interviews me about my upcoming Deming book. Damon and I have been DevOps partners in crime since the beginning of DevOps. We were both down in Boca Raton recording for the Techstrong Predict conference. Techstrong let us use their facility to record the podcast. Damon does a great job of pulling knowledge about my book.

Glenn Wilson, author of "DevSecOps: A leader's guide to producing secure software without compromising flow, feedback, and continuous improvement" discusses our upcoming trip to Japan. We are both becoming huge fans of Katie Anderson (see my last podcast), and we are attending her Japan trip. I asked him why he signed up for the trip. In addition, we discuss Katie's book and how it's a perfect complement to Mike Rother's Toyota Kata and Steven Spear's High Velocity Edge. You might find some bonus material if you're an Umberto Eco fan. Links:Glenn WilsonGlenn's DevSecOps BookKatie AndersonKatie's Japan Trip