Profound

In this episode of The Profound Podcast, I sit down with Dr. Jabe Bloom, a researcher and expert in systems thinking, AI, and digital transformation. We explore Eric Lawson’s book The Myth of AI, tackling the contentious debate around artificial general intelligence (AGI). Dr. Bloom offers insights from his dissertation and divides the ongoing discourse on AI into two camps: dogmatists and pragmatists. Dogmatists believe AGI is inevitable, while pragmatists focus on the practical impacts of current AI technology, such as large language models (LLMs), and how these will reshape businesses, education, and society.Throughout the episode, Dr. Bloom explains his framework for thinking about AI, touching on proactionary versus precautionary approaches to its development and regulation. He also draws connections between these ideas and W. Edwards Deming’s principles, especially around abductive reasoning—a concept that links back to Dr. Bloom’s past discussions about AI’s potential in problem-solving.The conversation takes a critical view of AGI's feasibility, with Dr. Bloom emphasizing the current challenges AI faces in replicating abductive reasoning, which involves making intelligent guesses—a capability he argues machines have yet to achieve. We also dive into examples from fields like DevOps, healthcare, and city planning, discussing where AI has shown great promise and where it still falls short.Key takeaways from the episode include the importance of addressing present AI technologies and their immediate impacts on work and society, as well as the ongoing need for human oversight and critique when using AI systems.

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I speak with Erik J. Larson, author of The Myth of Artificial Intelligence, about the speculative nature and real limitations of AI, particularly in relation to achieving Artificial General Intelligence (AGI). Larson delves into the philosophical and scientific misunderstandings surrounding AI, challenging the dominant narrative that AGI is just around the corner. Drawing from his expertise and experience in the field, Larson explains why much of the AI hype lacks empirical foundation. He emphasizes the limits of current AI models, particularly their reliance on inductive reasoning, which, though powerful, is insufficient for achieving human-like intelligence.Larson discusses how the field of AI has historically blended speculative futurism with genuine technological advancements, often fueled by financial incentives rather than scientific rigor. He highlights how this approach has led to misconceptions about AI’s capabilities, especially in the context of AGI. Drawing connections to philosophical theories of inference, Larson introduces deductive, inductive, and abductive reasoning, explaining how current AI systems fall short in their over-reliance on inductive methods. The conversation touches on the challenges of abduction (the "broken" form of reasoning humans often use) and the difficulty of replicating this in AI systems.Throughout the discussion, we explore the social and ethical implications of AI, including concerns about data limitations, the dangers of synthetic data, and the looming “data wall” that could hinder future AI progress. We also touch on broader societal impacts, such as how AI’s potential misuse and over-reliance might affect innovation and human intelligence.

In this episode of The Profound Podcast, I have an enlightening conversation with Dr. Jabe Bloom, a prominent voice in the fields of DevOps and digital transformation. The discussion revolves around the philosophical underpinnings of scientific reasoning and its application to complex systems, particularly through the lens of Charles Sanders Peirce's work on abductive reasoning.Jabe Bloom begins by exploring Peirce’s contributions to philosophy, particularly how Peirce's concept of abductive reasoning offers a framework for making educated guesses in situations where data is incomplete or variables are unknown. This idea becomes especially pertinent when Bloom contrasts the scientific method typically used in complicated domains, like Lean manufacturing, with the unpredictability of complex systems, where multiple hypotheses might be equally valid.The conversation further delves into how these ideas connect to digital transformation, especially in organizations navigating the complexities of modern IT and business environments. Bloom highlights the importance of fostering environments where experimentation and educated guessing are encouraged, as this aligns with Peirce's pragmatic approach, which values the usefulness of an idea over its absolute truth.To wrap up, we also discuss the broader implications of Peirce’s work on modern AI and socio-technical systems, emphasizing the need for a deeper understanding of how these systems operate and how to integrate artificial intelligence into complex human processes.

In this episode of The Profound Podcast,  I speak with Andrew Clay Shafer, a pivotal figure in the DevOps community and a key influencer in the industry. They delve into the evolution of DevOps, its current state, and its implications for the future, particularly in the context of digital transformation.The conversation begins with a reflection on the early days of DevOps and Agile, highlighting key milestones and the ongoing relevance of foundational principles, such as those proposed by W. Edwards Deming. Shafer emphasizes the timeless nature of these principles and their application beyond any buzzword lifecycle. The dialogue then transitions to the challenges and opportunities within the industry, addressing the impact of macroeconomic forces, the rise of AI, and the buzz around platform engineering.A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the importance of organizational learning and the necessity for companies to understand and adapt their processes to achieve true transformation. Shafer shares his insights on the common pitfalls organizations face when adopting new methodologies, stressing the need for contextual understanding and incremental improvement rather than superficial adoption of new terms or tools.The episode also touches on the concept of platform engineering as a continuation of the DevOps philosophy, rather than a separate or novel idea. Then to wrap up, we discuss the marketing dynamics that drive the emergence of new buzzwords and the critical need for genuine integration and alignment within organizations to realize the benefits of these practices.You can find Andrew Clay Shafer's LinkedIn below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewclayshafer/

In this episode, I speak with Joseph Enochs, Managing Director of AI/ML and Emerging Technologies at Enterprise Vision Technologies. Known for his extensive background in DevOps and digital transformation, Joseph shares his remarkable journey transitioning into the AI domain.Joseph begins by recounting how his interest in AI was sparked, notably influenced by the foundational concepts of W. Edwards Deming and the subsequent developments in DevOps. He details the pivotal moments that led him to pursue a master's degree in AI, highlighting the importance of continuous learning and the foresight needed to anticipate technological trends.The discussion covers the evolution and integration of AI within large enterprises, emphasizing the challenges and strategies for incorporating AI into existing systems. Joseph explains the significance of vector databases, context windows, and the roles of orchestrators and agents in enhancing AI capabilities. He also delves into the practical applications of AI in business, such as improving call center efficiency and automating complex tasks.In the final segment, Joseph offers practical advice on how to start learning about AI, emphasizing the importance of experimentation and validation of assumptions. The episode concludes with a reflection on the profound impact AI is set to have on the future of technology and business.

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Barbara Lawton, a distinguished statistician and expert in experimental design. Dr. Lawton shares her journey from studying biology and ecology to diving deep into statistics, eventually finding herself at the Rocky Flats nuclear weapons facility. It was here she experienced a pivotal moment that led her to W. Edwards Deming's teachings.Dr. Lawton recounts how a significant project at Rocky Flats fell apart due to budget cuts, illustrating Deming's principle that quality is determined in the boardroom. This realization propelled her to attend a seminar by Deming, which profoundly changed her perspective on quality and management. She describes her experience of traveling with Deming, learning from his insights, and understanding the importance of continuous learning and adaptation.The conversation delves into Deming's System of Profound Knowledge (SoPK), highlighting its relevance in today's fast-evolving world. Dr. Lawton emphasizes the need for an appreciation of systems, understanding of variation, psychology, and theory of knowledge, and expands on these concepts by integrating ideas from physics and ecology. She discusses the role of entropy, thermodynamics, and the dynamic nature of systems, explaining how these principles apply to modern organizations and leadership.Dr. Lawton also touches on the importance of emotional intelligence, mindfulness, and effective communication in leadership. She advocates for creating environments that foster continuous learning and adaptability, essential for navigating the complexities of today's digital landscape.You can find Dr. Barbara Lawton's LinkedIn Below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-lawton-8b920b6/Show Notes:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ2U7F0RJd0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWiH5S55iDg&t=25m28s

In this insightful episode of the Profound Podcast, I speak with Angela Montgomery, co-founder of Intelligent Management and author of the upcoming book, The Human Constraint. Angela shares her unique journey from a background in arts to collaborating with physicists. The conversation delves into the artificial barriers within organizations, the importance of systemic thinking, and how integrating Deming's System of Profound Knowledge with the Theory of Constraints can drive meaningful change.Angela highlights the critical differences between bottlenecks and constraints, emphasizing the strategic value of identifying and managing constraints to enhance organizational flow. She also discusses the challenges of adopting a systemic approach in traditional hierarchical structures and the role of mental models in limiting or advancing organizational potential.Through practical examples and narrative, Angela illustrates the transformative power of the Decalogue Method, which combines scientific rigor with literary storytelling. She also touches on her collaboration with renowned playwright Donald Freed to ensure the book's narrative is engaging and accessible.This episode is a must-listen for business leaders and practitioners interested in continuous improvement, conflict resolution, and embedding innovation into daily practice. Angela's insights offer a fresh perspective on leveraging systemic thinking to achieve sustainable organizational success.

In this episode, I had a conversation with Mike Beck. We dive deep into W. Edwards Deming's seminal perspectives on quality and their application in the automotive and healthcare sectors. Mike, with his vast experience at General Motors and Toyota, shares compelling stories and insights on how Deming's principles transformed his approach to engineering and management.Mike Beck's journey began as a mechanical engineer at General Motors in 1979, a time when the company held a dominant market share. His career took a significant turn after attending Deming’s seminar in 1984, which profoundly influenced his perspective on quality and management. This episode captures Mike's evolution from a reliability and test engineer to a leader in statistical methods and quality improvement at GM.Key Discussion Points:Early Career and Deming’s Influence:Mike details his early career at General Motors, the transition of GM from the market leader, and his first exposure to Deming’s teachings which significantly shifted his approach towards statistical methods and leadership​​.Implementing Statistical Methods:He discusses his application of statistical methods in engine development, particularly using Taguchi methods and design of experiments (DOE) to tackle the issue of bore distortion in the Quad 4 engine​​.Deming’s Consultancy at GM:Mike shares insights from GM's decision to hire Deming as a consultant, and how this influenced the creation of the Powertrain Statistical Network and a master’s program in statistics, fostering a culture of continuous improvement and statistical thinking within the company​​.Transition to Toyota:His move to Toyota offered a unique comparison between American and Japanese approaches to quality. Mike highlights Toyota’s meticulous production engineering processes, incremental changes, and the profound cultural differences that underpin their success in quality management​​.Cultural and Management Lessons:Mike elaborates on the concept of "catchball" in Hoshin Kanri, emphasizing the importance of alignment and communication in achieving organizational objectives. He also contrasts the Western and Eastern views on time and efficiency, shedding light on how Toyota’s approach to planning and reflection contributes to their sustained excellence​​.Show Notes:Mike's Email: mikebeck001@gmail.com

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I have a conversation with Rob Park. Rob shares his journey from early involvement in extreme programming (XP) to his current fascination with W. Edwards Deming's principles and their application in modern software development.Rob's career path offers a rich tapestry of experiences, from using case tools and adopting scrum practices before they were widely recognized, to working with Kanban and continuous integration/continuous delivery (CI/CD) processes. He reminisces about his introduction to Deming's work through the influence of notable figures in the agile community.A significant portion of the discussion delves into the integration of Deming's theories into software practices. Rob talks about the impact of statistical process control (SPC) and control charts on his work, emphasizing the importance of understanding variation and employing data-driven decision-making. He highlights the utility of Dr. Donald Wheeler's teachings on process behavior charts and the critical difference between enumerative and analytical statistics.The episode wraps up with Rob reflecting on the broader implications of Deming's work, advocating for its relevance in addressing contemporary challenges in software development. He shares his experiences of applying Deming's theories in real-world scenarios, illustrating how these timeless concepts continue to drive quality and efficiency in the digital age.You can find Rob Park's LinkedIn below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/robpark-4ls/

In this episode, I have a conversation with Beth Blankenship, a seasoned expert in quality management and a fervent disciple of W. Edwards Deming. We dive deep into Deming's profound principles and their continued relevance in today's digital transformation landscape.Beth begins by sharing her journey from an IT background to becoming a passionate advocate for Deming's teachings. Her story includes a moment at a Deming seminar, which sparked her lifelong dedication to quality improvement and management systems. Beth reflects on her experiences working in various sectors, emphasizing the importance of teaching and genuine engagement in quality initiatives.A significant part of our discussion revolves around Deming's influence on Japanese industry post-WWII and how his principles of systems thinking, variation, and profound knowledge reshaped their manufacturing processes. Beth provides insights into her extensive research, including the historical context of Deming's ideas and their foundational roots in the work of Walter Shewhart and other early 20th-century scientists.Beth also critiques modern methodologies like Six Sigma, highlighting how they often miss the holistic, systems-oriented approach Deming championed. She underscores the necessity of focusing on customer needs and continuous innovation, rather than merely eliminating defects.Our conversation concludes with Beth's reflections on the enduring impact of Deming's work and her current efforts to disseminate his teachings through papers, podcasts, and an upcoming YouTube channel. She passionately advocates for the preservation and application of Deming's principles, aiming to educate a new generation of quality management professionals.You can find Beth Blankenship's LinkedIn below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/beth-blankenship-deming-scholar-5351432/

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Jabe Bloom, an expert in design studies and organizational theory. Recently completing his PhD at Carnegie Mellon, Dr. Bloom brings a fresh perspective on the intersection of temporality, complexity, and design, particularly in the context of digital transformation in IT and other industries.We dive into the nuances of temporality versus time, exploring how these concepts influence design decisions. Dr. Bloom elaborates on how temporality is a qualitative measure of change and its impact on human experience and project planning. This foundational concept sets the stage for understanding "timeful" design, which embraces the dynamic nature of contexts and proposes continual re-evaluation and adaptation.Dr. Bloom challenges the traditional notion of design as a finite process, suggesting instead that it is an ongoing interaction with the environment. This perspective aligns with DevOps principles, where software development and operations are seen as continuous and evolving processes. He highlights the importance of context and proposition in design, where solutions must be constantly re-assessed to remain relevant as contexts change.One of the key takeaways from this episode is the idea of "bounded rationality". Dr. Bloom explains how this concept, which acknowledges the limitations of human decision-making capabilities, applies to modern digital systems. He also delves into the concept of "recombining," which involves ongoing negotiation and collaboration across organizational boundaries to address complex problems that cannot be solved by isolated teams.Dr. Bloom's insights into the temporal nature of objects and systems offer a profound shift in how we perceive design and operational challenges. By viewing software and other technological artifacts as temporal objects, he advocates for a more fluid and adaptive approach to design and implementation, one that continually responds to changing contexts and user needs.You can Dr. Jabe Bloom on LinkedIn below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/jabebloom/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I'm joined by John Dues, Chief Learning Officer at United Schools Network in Ohio and an innovative educator who has ingeniously applied W. Edwards Deming's theories to the educational sector. John shares his journey of discovery into Deming's methodologies and how these have profoundly influenced his approach to improving educational systems.Our discussion delves into John's initial skepticism and eventual embrace of Deming's System of Profound Knowledge, which consists of understanding systems, variation, psychology, and knowledge theory. John explains his experiences in applying these principles within his school network, particularly how they've been used to enhance operational efficiency and educational outcomes amidst the challenges posed by remote learning during the pandemic.The conversation also touches on John's approach to leadership and learning, emphasizing the necessity of continuous improvement and systems thinking in educational administration. He highlights the importance of aligning educational strategies with Deming’s philosophies to foster environments that nurture rather than stifle, promoting an organizational culture where insights into systemic improvements are encouraged and valued.John's innovative application of Deming's theories offers a template for transformative leadership in education, demonstrating the relevance of these age-old concepts in addressing modern challenges within the sector.You can find John Dues' LinkedIn Below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnadues/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I have the pleasure of speaking with Ariane David, PhD, an insightful thinker and academic who delves into the principles of non-positional thinking and its profound impact on personal and organizational learning. We explore how W. Edwards Deming's theories on quality and continuous improvement intersect with modern challenges in digital transformation, particularly within IT, healthcare, and manufacturing sectors.Dr. David's introduces the four principles of non-positional thinking, beginning with the 'uncertainty principle,' which emphasizes intellectual humility and the acceptance that our perceptions and conclusions might be flawed. This acknowledgment opens the door to 'curiosity,' the second principle, fostering a desire to explore and understand rather than to confirm biases. The discussion progresses to the 'principle of discernment,' where information is analyzed critically to separate useful insights from noise. Lastly, Ariane discusses 'courage,' which is essential for challenging our own assumptions and committing to a path of genuine understanding and improvement .Throughout the conversation, Dr. David highlights the dangers of 'adaptive learning' in organizations—learning driven by fear and survival instincts—which often prevents genuine insight and improvement. She contrasts this with 'generative learning,' which encourages a blame-free environment where mistakes are seen as opportunities for growth and learning, thereby fostering a culture that supports continuous improvement and aligns closely with Deming's philosophy.You can find Dr. Ariane David's LinkedIn below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/arianedavid/

In the second episode of my two-part discussion with Bill Bellows, we explore the nuanced realms of quality management, variation, and integration, drawing from the rich legacy of W. Edwards Deming and Genichi Taguchi, and their profound impact on industries ranging from automotive to aerospace.Bill Bellows shares enlightening perspectives on the historical collaboration between Ford and Mazda, illuminating the stark differences in their approaches to quality and production. He discusses the importance of minding the gap, not just in terms of parts but in the broader context of integration and systems thinking. This episode delves into the philosophical underpinnings of quality management, touching upon the concepts of red pen and blue pen companies, and the significance of aiming for systemic improvements rather than mere compliance with specifications.The conversation extends beyond the specifics of automotive engineering, drawing parallels with software development, healthcare systems, and manufacturing processes. Bellows emphasizes the critical role of managing variation not just at the part level but as an integral part of a coherent system. This approach, he argues, is key to achieving superior quality, functionality, and customer satisfaction.You can find Bill Bellows LinkedIn here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In the first part of a two-part series with Bill Bellows, we delve deep into the essence of system thinking and its pivotal role in shaping organizations. Bellows leads us on a journey exploring the nuanced differences between 'Red Pen' and 'Blue Pen' organizations, and beyond, into the realms of 'Me' versus 'We' and the collective impact of every straw on the camel's back.Bellows opens the discussion with his famous 'Red Pen Blue Pen' exercise, a metaphorical exploration that distinguishes two types of organizations based on quality and system thinking. He illustrates how small details, like the ease of cap removal on pens, can symbolize the deeper operational philosophies and outcomes of organizations. This exercise not only serves as a tool for introspection but also highlights the broader implications of systemic thinking in operational excellence.Expanding further, Bellows introduces the concepts of 'Me' versus 'We' and the allegory of the last straw, pushing us to contemplate the collective responsibility versus individual blame within organizational contexts. Through these discussions, he underscores the importance of a systemic perspective that fosters collaboration, continuous improvement, and a shared understanding of goals and challenges.You can find Bill Bellows on LinkedIn here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I had the pleasure of engaging with Dave Nave, a multifaceted expert with a rich background in engineering, quality improvement, and business management consulting. Through his work and studies, Nave has delved deep into W. Edwards Deming's philosophies, applying these principles across various sectors with notable emphasis on manufacturing.Our conversation explored Nave's initial skepticism towards quality improvement methodologies and his transformative encounter with Deming's teachings. Nave vividly described his early career experiences, where he challenged the concepts of process variability and predictability, only to find empirical evidence that humbled his perspective. This journey led him to embrace Deming's methodologies, seeking further education and eventually contributing to quality improvement initiatives in the defense industry and beyond.Nave's experiences with the Deming Scholars MBA program at Fordham University stood out as a pivotal moment in his career. Immersed in Deming's teachings, he gained insights from esteemed professors and applied these lessons to real-world challenges. His anecdotes about the practical applications of Deming's principles, especially in the context of manufacturing assembly lines and quality control, were particularly enlightening.The conversation also touched upon the challenges and nuances of implementing quality improvement methodologies within organizations. Nave shared stories from his consulting work, highlighting the importance of systemic thinking and the pitfalls of siloed approaches to process improvement.Dave Nave's LinkedIn can be found below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/davenave/

In this episode of Profound,  I talk with Dr. Khai Minh Pham, whose unique approach to artificial intelligence challenges conventional paradigms and opens new frontiers in AI research and application. Dr. Pham, with his extensive background in both medicine and artificial intelligence, shares his journey towards creating a distinctive AI framework that prioritizes knowledge over data, steering clear of the traditional data-centric methodologies that dominate the field.Dr. Pham recounts his early realization of the limitations inherent in human cognitive processes and how this propelled him to explore AI as a means to augment human memory and decision-making capabilities. Central to this episode is Dr. Pham's critique of the prevailing AI models that rely heavily on data processing and pattern recognition. He introduces his concept of "macro connectionist AI," a system that mimics human reasoning more closely by forming high-level knowledge representations rather than merely processing data inputs. This approach, according to Dr. Pham, not only enhances AI's problem-solving capabilities but also significantly reduces the computational resources required, challenging the current industry trend towards increasingly complex and energy-intensive AI systems.you can find Dr. Pham's LinkedIn below:https://www.linkedin.com/in/khai-minh-pham/

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I engage in an insightful conversation with Richard Steele, founder and president of Peeker Services. We explore his journey from rebuilding locomotives to embracing W. Edwards Deming's principles, leading to a radical change in his company's management practices, particularly around performance appraisals and bonus systems. Steele shares transformative moments, like presenting his new pay program to the Detroit Deming study group, including Dr. Deming himself, and the eventual transition of his company into an employee-owned structure. The dialogue delves into the practical applications of Deming's theories in the workplace, the power of collective problem-solving, and the importance of fostering a culture of learning and adaptation. Finally, we take a look at some of Dick's critiques of Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge.Steele's narrative demonstrates a successful integration of system thinking and the profound impact of shifting from traditional merit pay to a more inclusive and equitable model, redefining quality and performance metrics within his organization.Richard's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-steele-6586477/

In part two of their discussion, John Willis engages in a deep dive with Bill Bellows on the multifaceted world of safety, quality, and systems thinking. Inspired by the pioneering work of Sydney Decker, Dr. Woods, and Erik Hollnagel, they explore the nuanced perspectives on safety and quality that transcend conventional understanding.John and Bill navigate the intricate connections between thoroughness, efficiency, and effectiveness, drawing parallels to the foundational principles of Deming and Ackoff. They dissect the Efficiency-Thoroughness Trade-Off (ETTO) principle introduced by Hollnagel, pondering its implications in the context of operational safety and quality management.The conversation further delves into Russ Ackoff’s insights on systems thinking, the DIKW (Data, Information, Knowledge, Wisdom) model, and the profound impact of understanding complex systems on improving organizational outcomes. Bill shares anecdotes from his experiences, illustrating the practical application of these concepts in real-world settings, including his work at Rocketdyne and with the Deming community.Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/Show Notes: 1) Ackoff videos on Deming Cooperative, https://demingcooperative.org/ackoffvideos/2) Ackoff on DIKUW - article, https://faculty.ung.edu/kmelton/Documents/DataWisdom.pdf3) Ackoff on DIKUW - video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzS5V5-0VsA&t=21s 3) Deming and Ackoff - excerpts of Volume 21 of the Deming Library, ("A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers”),https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MJ3lGJ4OFo 4) Deming and Ackoff - transcript of full recorded of Volume 21 of the Deming Library ,https://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/ackoff_center_weblog/2011/04/a-converstaion-between-russell-ackoff-and-edward-deming.html5) Ackoff - Memories, https://www.amazon.com/Memories-Hardcover-Collectors-Russell-Ackoff/dp/09565379956) Ackoff - Differences That Make a Difference, https://www.amazon.com/Differences-that-Make-Difference-Distinctions/dp/1908009012/

In this episode, I sit down once again with Bill Bellows to explore the interconnected nature of quality thinking. Our conversation ventures beyond traditional boundaries, drawing on Bill's unique insights into systemic thinking and its implications for organizational excellence.We delve into the philosophy of interconnectedness, illustrating how quality extends far beyond the superficial, embedding itself into every facet of production and service. Bill shares enlightening perspectives on the importance of viewing organizations as whole systems, where every element is interrelated and changes in one part can ripple through others.Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/Show Notes: 1) Ackoff videos on Deming Cooperative, https://demingcooperative.org/ackoffvideos/2) Ackoff on DIKUW - article, https://faculty.ung.edu/kmelton/Documents/DataWisdom.pdf3) Ackoff on DIKUW - video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzS5V5-0VsA&t=21s 3) Deming and Ackoff - excerpts of Volume 21 of the Deming Library, ("A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers”),https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MJ3lGJ4OFo 4) Deming and Ackoff - transcript of full recorded of Volume 21 of the Deming Library ,https://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/ackoff_center_weblog/2011/04/a-converstaion-between-russell-ackoff-and-edward-deming.html5) Ackoff - Memories, https://www.amazon.com/Memories-Hardcover-Collectors-Russell-Ackoff/dp/09565379956) Ackoff - Differences That Make a Difference, https://www.amazon.com/Differences-that-Make-Difference-Distinctions/dp/1908009012/