“Something about the motion of walking is conducive to generating both ideas and conversation. You can empty your mind and open your mind at the same time.” —Kevin Kelly In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reports from a “Walk and Talk” across northern Thailand. Interviewees and conversation topics are listed by time-code below. Participant write-ups about (or alluding to) the 2023 Thailand Walk and Talk include: The Walk and Talk: Everything We Know, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk: Everything We Know (PDF document), by Kevin Kelly Walking the Heck out of Thailand, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk, by Derek Sivers Expanding Home, by Liz Danzico Where Do You Call Home?, by Jason Kottke 2023: Walking, by Dan Wang Why Not Pay Teachers $100,000 a Year?, by Daniel Pink Kevin Kelly (4:00-15:00) Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His newest book is Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I’d Kn

“We ‘massage’ the truth to make it fit the narrative we need it to fit in our lives.”  –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about how Andrew got started in travel writing, and how writing himself on the page helped him see himself in the world (2:30); when he does and doesn’t conflate certain details in the interest of a good story, and how he balances the “micro” and the “macro” elements of a travel story (12:30); how he decides who to write about, among the many people he meets on the road, which details do and don’t drive the narrative forward, and what it’s like to meet travelers who recognize him from his acting days (23:30); how Andrew structures his travel stories, and what travel storytelling in common with his work as a TV director (31:00); how he balances his writing and non-writing work in life, and how he mixes personal details with place details in his travel writing (38:00); and how memory

“Unless we explore our neighborhood, we can’t imagine what might be right under our noses, nor be able to celebrate it, mourn its demise, or take action.” –Alastair Humphreys In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Alastair Humphreys discuss the concept of his new book Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wilderness (1:30); what Alastair found on his close-to-home adventures in England (7:00); the surprises he found in industrial and post-industrial environments (13:00); how he learned to pay better attention to the natural environment in the areas he explored (19:30); “rights of access,” and how it affects hiking in Europe; and the idea of the “big here” versus the “small here” (25:00); how Alastair sought to embrace “stillness” during his experiment (33:30); how the changing of the seasons affected his experience of the local environments (40:30); and the role that imagination plays in having adventures close to home (48:00). Alastair Hu

“I hate the Kansas City Chiefs with a passion reserved only for things that I love.” —Tod Goldberg In this episode of Deviate, Rolf shares his 2002 NPR “Savvy Traveler” dispatch about trying to watch the Super Bowl in Thailand (3:00); then he and Tod Goldberg discuss how they became NFL football fans as kids in the 1970s, and how this affected their fandom later in life (8:00); how it could be difficult in the days before the Internet for kids to find information about NFL teams and players, and which books they read about the early days of pro football (23:00); the origins of the San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs in upstart pro leagues, their more recent fortunes in the NFL, and how the last Chiefs Super Bowl appearance was nine months before Rolf was born (38:30); on watching Super Bowls from overseas and following the Chiefs (or 49ers) as adults, the strengths of the 2020 Chiefs and 49ers teams, and the emotional stakes of Super Bowl LIV (49:00); how the Chiefs have domina

“Billionaires can’t take a week off? What’s the point of having a billion dollars if they have fewer options than I do?”  –Tim Ferriss In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim discuss common travel fantasies, and the fears that keep people from traveling (5:00); how we can redefine what “wealth” is and live fuller lives (18:00); why keeping a healthy perspective on information intake, technology, and “efficiency” is important, both on the road and in daily life (25:00); the “beginner’s mind,” and tips for writing and creativity (54:00);  the merits of going on foot and “getting lost” on the road, and how this figured into Rolf’s writing classes (1:17:00); notions of “success,” and how to definite the notion of success in a way that enhances one’s way of being in the world (1:37:00); and Rolf’s recommendations for drinks, food, documentaries, books, and poetry (1:50:00); Tim Ferriss (@tferri

“Sometimes it’s good to sit still and let a place move through you instead of you moving through a place.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how one can be vulnerable to new experiences on the road instead of micromanaging an itinerary (2:00); how monuments to mortality help us think of travel moments in an existential way (11:30); how we can take the mindset of travel back home with us when the journey is over, and how the experience of travel changes as you age (20:00); the role of ritual and ceremony in slow travel, and the simple things we have in common with our host cultures (30:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Cotswolds (region in central-southwest England) Lake Maninjau (caldera lake in West Sumatra, Indonesia) Rendille people (Cushitic-speaking ethnic group i

“When asked to give advice to young people looking to become travel writers, I invariably tell them to go – alone – and live in a country where they don’t speak the language.”  –Thomas Swick In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about the thematic limitations of memoir writing, and the early stages of Tom’s career as a journalist (2:00); his decision to move to Poland for love, and his experiences living in Warsaw around the time of the Solidarity movement (9:30); the task of writing a travel memoir about events that happened decades ago, and how the American news cycles tends to ignore international matters (15:00); the task of getting started in travel writing in the twenty-first century (21:00); and how travel writers have the ability to bring a fresh eye to places that people who live there might miss (26:00). Thomas Swick (@roostertie) is an author and writer of The Joys of Travel, A Way to See the World, and Unquiet Days. His newest book is Falling into Place: A St

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate – which is a redo of episode 229, which didn’t air properly due to technical problems – Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, “taxi drivers and bartenders” layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the “wisdom of place” (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)

“Not everyone who’s lucky is talented and not everyone who’s talented is lucky.”  –Tom Bissell In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about Tom’s lack of travel experience when he joined the Peace Corps, and how he dealt with his early failures (2:30); the role that luck (as well as craft and obsessive reading) has played in his writing career (8:00); how, as a writer, to turn real-life people, including yourself, into convincingly human and honest nonfiction “characters” (16:00); Tom “failures” as a writer, the challenges of screenwriting, and the difficulty of writing books that sell (38:30); the book that Tom is most proud of, and how to get out of the success/failure dichotomy as a creative person (47:00); plus a post-interview segment about drinking in Paris (56:00). Tom Bissell is an American author, journalist, critic, and screenwriter. He is the author of such books as Chasing the Sea, Apostle, God Lives in St. Petersburg, Extra

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, “taxi drivers and bartenders” layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the “wisdom of place” (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay) Hen

“One ironic anxiety of travel is that suddenly you’re living in ‘organic time’ and you’re not used to it.”  –Rolf Potts In this “vagabonding audio companion” episode of Deviate, remixed from Aaron Millar’s Armchair Explorer podcast, Rolf talks about his earliest travel dreams, and what compelled him to finally take a vagabonding dream trip around North America by van in his early twenties (2:00); how travel expectations and planning are often at odds with the joy of what happens spontaneously on the road (8:30); the delightful surprises Rolf found on a recent trip to Sumatra and the Mentawai Islands (11:30); Rolf’s experiences in Myanmar, and the importance of seeing time, rather than possessions, as our most important form of wealth in life (22:00); Rolf’s early experiences in Southeast Asia, and his monthlong boat journey down the Mekong River (31:00); and how, at its best, travel teaches us to pay attention to life itself (35:00

“A wonderful aspect of traveling by train is the transactional relationship between passengers who feed off one another, picking up tips, offering advice, guarding each other’s belongings, and generating a trust that is unique to railway travel.”  –Monisha Rajesh In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Monisha discuss how her interest in train-travel dates back to a series of journeys she took around India (1:30); her more recent experience of taking the Trans-Mongolian train across Russia and into Asia (14:00); what it was like to travel by train in North Korea, China, and Southeast Asia, and how they differ from European trains (28:00); what it was like to take trains across Canada and the United States, and which global trains Monisha likes best (45:00). Monisha Rajesh (@monisha_rajesh) is a travel journalist, and the author of Around India in 80 Trains, and Around the World in 80 Trains. She currently lives in London with her husband and two daughters. Notable Links: Indrail Pass (I

“We live in an age where you can take a series short flights inside a country to speed things up. You end up going to more places, but you experience less, because you’re not really committed to that chicken bus full of really interesting people who want nothing more than to interact with you.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss the idiosyncrasies of crossing land borders and traveling overland (1:30); travelers’ tendency to take dishonest photos of places, and how tourist destinations bend to tourists’ expectations (8:00); the small inconveniences that keep travel interesting, even as we try to avoid them, and the idiosyncrasies of haggling overseas (14:00); how food can be a window into cultures and places for travelers (19:00); common scams that travelers encounter on the road (26:00); and the process of how Rolf assembled the meditations in The Vagabond’s Way, and the concept of “walking

“Domestic travel to rural places can be as important as international travel that is more obviously cross-cultural.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Marci talk about how the best trips are guided by curiosity about eight key things, rather than checklists (2:00); what Marci has learned from several decades of writing guidebooks to rural and small-town Kansas, and how these places are worth fighting for (10:30); how urban people can better experience rural places (17:00); using your five senses as a traveler, and other strategies for exploring the nuances of new places (26:30); and seeing places as “mysteries to be solved” (37:30). Marci Penner (@GetRuralKansas) is the executive director of the Kansas Sampler Foundation, which preserves and sustains rural culture by educating Kansans about Kansas and networking and supporting rural communities. She is involved with the PowerUp Movement (empowerment of those 21-39 who are rural by choice), the Big Rural Bra

“A souvenir can be anything from a travel experience that honors a certain moment in your life, certifies the journey that took you there, and celebrates the confluence of people and places and actions that made it possible.”  – Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Suzanne talk about the ways souvenirs help narrate our travel experiences (2:00); the five different historical categories of travel souvenirs (7:30); the old trend of collecting hair and bones from famous people (15:00); what kinds of souvenirs are popular with travelers (20:00); which souvenirs Rolf sought when he visited Australia, and how some souvenirs make less sense when you get them home (24:30); then Rolf and Gina talk about childhood travel souvenirs (30:00); how photographs are a kind of souvenir, and how they create different memories than objects (36:00); and how the notion of “authenticity” in regard to souvenirs can be complicated (40:00). Suzanne Hill is the presenter of the Australian

“In alien parts, we speak more simply, unencumbered by the histories that we carry around at home, and look more excitedly, with eyes of wonder.” —Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how he prepares for the book-club sessions (1:30); how the first days of one’s journeys have an optimistic energy and excitement, and how “culture shock” is a real thing (4:00); how travel can put us into a childlike mental state, and how travel expectations can lead to unfair disappointments (13:00); how food, even anomalous food, tells specific stories about places, and Rolf’s strategy for keeping a travel journal (21:30); how the “beaten path” is beaten for good reasons, but straying from it yields serendipitous rewards (31:00); and simple strategies for staying safe and dealing with burnout on the road (42:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Lin

“We do not just keep and collect things. We trouble ourselves to repurpose, create, and invent things just to carry, a little easier, those stories we cannot live without.” —Kendra Greene In this episode of Deviate, Rolf speaks to the directors of two very different museums — Dawn Hammat of the Eisenhower Presidential Library, Museum & Boyhood Home in Abilene, Kansas, and Greg Long of Long’s Collectible Showplace & Gift Shop in Salina, Kansas (0:00); what people are drawn to in a given museum, and how a kind of nostalgia drives what people look for there (5:30); the ways all museums change and adapt over time, and how museums can surprise their visitors (12:00). Notable Links: Dwight Eisenhower (34th president of the United States) Mamie Eisenhower (first lady of the US from 1953-61) Barbie (fashion doll) Hot Wheels (brand of toy car) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Ozzy Osbourne (rock singer) Wonder cabinets (early versions of museums)

“Quietly use travel to deepen your life, and to build stronger relationships – not only with other cultures, but with your home. Figure out ways to give back.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about how travel allows you to “waste your twenties” in a good way, and how Rolf has come to define “adventure” (2:00); how to plan travels in such a way as to leave room for spontaneity, and how to meet people on the road (8:00); how to communicate in a place where you don’t speak the local language, and how to be daring in trying new foods as you travel (15:30); Rolf’s travel experiences on the Laotian Mekong, on foot in the Libyan Desert, and by van in North America (25:00); how to balance the desire to see lots of places with the desire to get to know a few places well, and what it means to find “authentic” places (32:30); why slow journeys create richer experiences than hurried ones, and how to honor gestures of hos

“Not every fearful decision I’ve made has been bad, but most of my bad decisions have been based in fear.”  –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about the two halves of Andrew’s professional life – acting and travel writing – and his transformative first journey on the Camino de Santiago in 1994 (2:00); Andrew’s decision to return to the Camino after the pandemic with his 19-year-old son Sam, what it was like to walk for days at a time with Sam, and how being in the 1980s “Brat Pack” affected Andrew’s sense of self (11:30); how Sam’s attitude toward the walk changed over the course of the journey, and how Andrew knew he might be able to write a book about the experience (22:00); audience questions, including writing advice, what Sam thought of the book, and how travel can expand your view of the world (28:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy), who rose to fame as a teen actor during the John Hughes 80

“The truth is that our travel anticipations, and our memories, have a way of holding only the most striking parts of an experience—the parts that don’t cause burnout.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about travel journaling, and a journal Matt has designed for travelers (1:15); why travel burnout happens, and how Matt first experienced it on the road (4:30); why rest days are important to a journey, and why one shouldn’t over-plan one’s days on the road (10:00); how lingering in places allows you to develop a deeper relationship to those places, and how digital nomads can balance work and fun on the road (16:00); and how to create balance in your social-media habits as you travel (23:30). Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $50 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Keeping a travel journal