Lead & Follow

Sharna Fabiano

Lead & Follow offers a personal and provocative discussion of collaboration, teamwork, and power. Host Sharna Fabiano talks with artists, academics, engineers, educators, administrators, and everyday working people to explore the subtle yet critical relational dynamic between leadership and followership.

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Following in Complexity - Pedro Portela
Following in Complexity - Pedro Portela
Apr 3 2022
44 mins
Rewrite the Script - Sharna FabianoLead by Following - Daniel Burkholder
Dancer/Choreographer Daniel Burkholder shares his experience with leading and especially following through the improvisational forms of Contact Improvisation and Feldenkrais Method.Daniel choreographs, improvises, performs, teaches dance and the Feldenkrais Method, and practices mindfulness. His choreographic/improvisational work spans theatrical performances, site-specific events, immersive media, and screendance, and has been presented at numerous venues throughout North America and internationally. His current work includes: “On-Site”, a series of embodied screendance experiments; “Embodied Truth: finding ways to move together”, a collaboration with Kimani Fowlin examining race and gender through the lens of parenting; and, “act/re/act”, a podcast exploring improvisation through conversations with remarkable artists.  His work has been commissioned by The John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, James Madison University, and Goucher College, among others. Daniel is currently an Associate Professor of Dance at University of Wisconsin Milwaukee and the director of the MFA in Dance program.“In the act of following there’s a generosity that evolves, and so much is possible.” “There is a sense of leading, but it’s through following the cues that I’m getting from the person I’m working with.” “If I just come through with a hard laid-out plan I miss an opportunity to really see what’s happening in the moment and the possibilities within that moment.”“The trust is that I’m going to enter this relationship where we’re going to be engaging one other with a goal that is supportive, that helps both of us flourish, that opens of new possibilities for ourselves.”Connect with Daniel Burkholderwww.danielburkholder.comListen to Daniel’s act | re | act podcastwww.danielburkholder.com/actreact-podcastExample of Contact Improvisationhttps://youtu.be/q4wUEiHowSUInformation on Feldenkrais Methodhttps://feldenkrais.com/ *Connect with your host Sharna Fabianowww.sharnafabiano.com Flip University 40% off the world's first online Followership course with code LEADFOLLOW40.
Mar 13 2022
38 mins
People Helping People - Eran Magen
Dr. Eran Magen shares his insights around listening as a core followership skill and how the right balance of leading and following helps us form connected, supportive relationships.Dr. Magen earned his M.A. in education and Ph.D. in psychology from Stanford University, completed post-doctoral training in population health as a Robert Wood Johnson Health & Society Scholar, and served as the research director for the University of Pennsylvania's Department of Counseling and Psychological Services. Dr. Magen is the founder of Early Alert, which works with universities, hospitals, public schools and first responder agencies to prevent suicide and promote wellness among students and employees. His work has been published in top-tier scientific journals including Psychological Science, Emotion, and Academic Pediatrics, and has been cited in popular media ranging from Allure Magazine to Psychology Today. He is a member of the Jed Foundation's advisory board, and the founder of Parenting For Humans, a relationship-first, trauma-informed approach to parenting that helps parents build stronger, more joyful relationships with their children and with themselves.“For me listening is very much a form of meditation.”“The core of the how is to spend a lot of time following. Setup, following, and leading.” “To help someone be less upset, we follow. And when they’re done being upset, we check if it’s ok to lead.”  "People don’t always talk about the thing that really bothers them. Sometimes they don’t even know. And if we listen to them well they can find out.” Connect with Dr. Eran Magenwww.parentingforhumans.com**Connect with your host Sharna Fabianowww.sharnafabiano.com Flip University 40% off the world's first online Followership course with code LEADFOLLOW40.
Feb 27 2022
41 mins
Creative Collaboration - Glover Gill
This episode is a reflective conversation on the creative process with an artist I have long admired, composer and multi-instrumentalist Glover Gill.  Glover and I take a trip down memory lane as we chat about our collaboration on the making of a dance theater piece called Uno back in 2008. Glover also shares insights about leading and following in his collaborations with other musicians and with filmmaker Richard Linklater, emphasizing how great collaboration depends on mutual trust, respect, and relationships built over time.“On a couple of movements of our piece, the writing took control of me and I just had to follow the direction that it was going.” “I almost feel like the best thing I can do in a collaboration is try to do just enough leading to get myself into the follower role as much as possible.”“While I’m looking at little tiny details, he’s looking at the big picture. It’s a symbiosis.”“Part of good leadership is identifying the right structure for the outcome that we want and for the people that we’re working with.”“I think there may be very few things more frustrating than a leader without clarity.” Find Glover Gill’s Music:Siggs Lagoon, Houstonwww.sigslagoon.comWaterloo Records, Austinwww.waterloorecords.comEpisode References:Richard Linklater, Waking LifeWatch TrailerTosca String Quartet/Tosca Tango Orchestrawww.toscastrings.com**Connect with your host Sharna Fabianowww.sharnafabiano.com Flip University 40% off the world's first online Followership course with code LEADFOLLOW40.
Feb 15 2022
44 mins
Lightness & Play - Tova MorenoSupportive Communication - Carri DominickEverything is a Conversation - Martin Heuschober
My guest on the podcast this week is Martin Heuschober, a software programmer, blues dancer, and player of table top role-play games, the most famous of which is Dungeons and Dragons. These games are highly improvisational and rely on - you guessed it - highly dynamic leading and following. Martin describes how game master and players engage in collaborative storytelling through continuous exchange of leading and following. I even get to play a short scene as a private investigator, complete with dramatic dice-roll!“A creative follower is something very precious and very delightful”“Following is necessary in both roles.”“When I’m leading I’m creating an opportunity for my follow to show their talent or their creativity and express themselves.”“The essence of role playing is that your actions need to have an impact.” Actual PlayCritical role: Probably the most prominent (actual play) show right now - these are professional voice actors, so they know how to make their characters be very recognizable. Dimension 20: Series of fun D&D shows by UCB alumniLA by Night: Series in the setting of Vampire: the Masquerade, a horror-themed gameRed Moon Role-Playing: Radio audio drama style of games, mostly horror genreSafety ToolsGehenna Gaming Consent Form: A good tool when running/playing horror games to make sure you are aware of your own and your players boundariesRPG Safety Toolkit by Kienna Shaw: More tools to keep the players comfortable and the characters frightenedAbout Role PlayingAdventuring Academy: A podcast about role playing- - Connect with your host Sharna Fabianowww.sharnafabiano.com  Flip University 40% off the world's first online Followership course with code LEADFOLLOW40.
Dec 5 2021
41 mins
Open to the Unknown - Dan IstrateFuture of Power - Sara Murdock
Oct 24 2021
51 mins
Relational Trust - Tom KlausFollowership in Professional Development - Brian RookRelating to Place - Tara LaidlawSupporting Each Other - Janice Shack-MarquezLimits of Power - Lew Steinhoff
I talk with Dr. Lewis Steinhoff, the Director of the Nuclear Weapon Acquisition Professional (NWAP) Certification Program at the U.S. Department of Energy’s National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA). We explore how a leader's power and influence are not entirely guaranteed based on title or position, but rather that leaders are to a large extent constrained by what followers are willing to accept. It's an important clarification of what power is, and of what makes us effective when we lead, whether in an office environment or at the level of international government negotiations. “The power that you exert as a supervisor is only as strong as what the employee is going to accept.” "It's extremely important that a supervisor develop an understanding  with their employees"Connect with Dr. Steinhoff on LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-lewis-steinhoff-a9751147/ReferencesIra Chaleff, The Courageous FollowerGaski, John, "'Volume of Power: A New Conceptualization of the Power Construct", Sociological Spectrum, 15, 1995 Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, In the First Circle (1968) “You only have power over people as long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything he's no longer in your power — he's free again.” Steinhoff, R.L. (2021), "Assessing leaders’ power limits over followers", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 53 No. 2, pp. 107-116.   **Connect with your host Sharna Fabianowww.sharnafabiano.com Flip University 40% off the world's first online Followership course with code LEADFOLLOW40.
Jul 26 2021
37 mins
Courageous Followership - Alain de Sales
Dr. Alain de Sales shares his research on how courageous followers can collapse patterns of destructive leadership. He surfaces destructive episodes using the toxic triangle framework made up of leaders, susceptible followers and context. Through compelling stories and examples, he shows how specific, methodical, and sequential acts of courageous followership can interrupt harm and topple abusive power structures at any scale and in any domain, including business, politics, and social movements.  “Courage is a functional skill and you’ve got to practice it.”“Leadership and followership are dichotomous roles that we both play all the time.”“We nearly always have agency to resist destructive leadership”.“Every opportunity is an opportunity to practice courage.”Connect with Alain on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alaindesales  References in this EpisodeMary Parker Follett was a management theorist who introduced the concept of followers as distinct from leaders in the 1920s.Daniel Ellsberg leaked the Pentagon papers revealing the atrocities of the Vietnam war. The courageous actions of several people during the Watergate scandal ultimately contributed to President Richard Nixon’s resignation just before he could be impeached.  Gaslit Nation is co-hosted by independent journalists Sarah Kendzior & Andrea Chalupawww.gaslitnationpod.com Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower  M.K. Gandhi, The Story of My Experiments with Truth  "You can’t be neutral on a moving train." – Howard Zinn**Connect with your host Sharna Fabianowww.sharnafabiano.com Flip University 40% off the world's first online Followership course with code LEADFOLLOW40.
Jul 12 2021
47 mins
Consenting to Follow - Ryan MoodyStrength with Dignity - Jonathan HanThe Field of Possibility - Amy LombardoMaking Space - Ruth Sims
May 24 2021
36 mins