First Off, Let's Kill All the Lawyers

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan, I've been practicing personal injury law in South Florida for nearly three decades, actually over three decades now, which is sort of scary. The intent behind these podcasts is quite simple. There was a Shakespearean line back in the 15th century. It's been interpreted in a lot of different ways. But we know one thing, it drew a lot of laughter at the time when it was said, and a lot of people chuckle when you say it today. So the goal today, and in all these shows, is to bring in lawyers, and we're going to divert a little bit on that, and get to know him a little bit, find out what they do, and then kind of maybe one by one, take them off the kill list. The good thing is my guest this morning isn't directly on the kill list, because he's not a lawyer. But a lot of what he does is intricately tied with lawyers. And so, we're going to explore that today and have some fun talking about some really interesting things that are a byproduct of what happens in law. And my guest this morning is Felipe Blanco. Felipe, how are you? Good morning, David. It's great to be here with you. The title is definitely very attractive. Well, you know, it gets the people's attention. You know, there was I had some alternative titles that I'll go with you before. Felipe and I are actually also then going to do an endorsement for hair product for men, as an aside just to generate a little cash flow and on the broadcast, but, but we'll keep that minimal. Felipe, let's talk a little bit. Before we get into what you do, let's talk about you a little bit. Born in Cuba, you come to Miami when you're how old? I came, right before I turned five years old. Okay. Yeah, I grew up in Miami, went to a small private school. up basically, in those times, you went from basic kindergarten through eighth through 12th grade. And so I did that. And then I, I was at Florida International, when it was six buildings in a very small space. Clearly, something that's changed over the years…without a doubt my three children who actually work on my team as well, also went to Florida International. And when I visited the campus 20 years later, I was shocked by the amount of growth that the institution had. Yeah, I hadn't been out there in a while. And I went out for a memorial service. And I mean, it's, it's no, it used to be this sort of tiny, little commuter campus. And they've really, really done a nice job, of building that and building the reputation of that school. Let's talk a little bit you get into financial planning, you're the managing director and a financial advisor with RBC. Tell me sort of what gravitated to that what's, what's the appeal to finance. And then we'll talk a little bit about what you do there. And then we're going to merge that into what you do with lawyers. Sure. So I was always from a very young age, interested in finance, investments, mathematics, so on and so forth. So it was, you know, I was fortunate enough to have an incredible teacher during high school, that was that there was a was my math teacher, and she inspired me to really focus on numbers and that aspect of it. And then when I got to, when I got to FIU, I had decided that I want to be a finance major, but I also was blessed with meeting a professor that taught a number of investment courses and financial courses. And he befriended me and became a mentor for lack of a better term. And that created the passion around this business. So, I initially started in traditional banking, where I was doing consumer lending, corporate lending, so on and so forth. And then in the year 2000, when a lot of my clients that I had developed a relationship on the banking side, said, Look, we're at an age where we're monetizing our business and we're selling, you know, we trust you, why don't you? Why don't you help us on the financial side, so I transitioned to more of a wealth management role. Okay, let me apologize, my all my computer, and I have no idea how to link it from my phone, I turned my phone to silent, but I can't manage my computer. So, we're good. We know you're good with numbers, but maybe not on the technology side of things, right? Without a doubt. That's why you hire, hire people to do that. We're not going to talk about financial investments now, particularly given what's going on and makes things a little chaotic. And that's a whole different show. But years ago, and this is how you and I have met and everything else, but years ago, you started to sort of carve out a niche to start working with lawyers on cases where there are settlements for minors or settlements for people with special needs. And that money's got to get set aside and taken care of so how did that start to evolve it by Chance. When I joined, when I joined Mellon, they had they own a local bank called United National which was known as the lawyer's bank. But within that, within that space, they were a big lender, to personal injury attorneys. They were lending to the attorneys to finance their cases through pre-lit and lit until they monetize. As a result of that relationship, I started getting introduced to personal injury attorneys. And as a result, helping them initially just post-settlement on the, you know, post settlement or verdict on the management of the funds. And then subsequently, the role expanded to where I was working with them, even in the pre-litigation and litigation stage, and then helping them with financial analysis, and other factors. So, what started as an opportunity, then started developing more and more that for the last 20 years, that's been growing. And I can say right now, probably about 90 to 95% of my time is spent working with personal injury attorneys throughout the country, in one way, shape, or form, to help them and their clients during the different stages of their case. And then along the way. And my wife always tells me that I hit the jackpot in the sense that it's a business I'm very passionate about because I help families that have gone through tragedy. But also, I get to work with folks that have become my friends. So, I know that title is to kill lawyers, but it happenstance that I'd say that probably 95% of my friends are folks that I do business with, then at five o'clock change jacket, and then socialize with so I get to work with my friends in addition to helping families with, with, with that have suffered through a tragedy. So, you know, at least some of the ones we can take off the list, which is good to know. Right? Correct. All right. So, let's walk through that process. So and because I don't know that the general public understands that. But a lawyer, Pei lawyer, and we've worked on cases with this, but has somebody who suffers a devastating injury, okay. In order to then determine I mean, what people have to understand is, you got to get some kind of number to take care of those people. And so, lawyers work with life care planners who will put together a plan to say, these are the things because they're only going to get one day in court, these are the things this person is going to need to be able to be taken care of adequately and completely for the rest of their life. Here's where you sort of come in now. So okay, we figure out what that number is, you try to resolve the case, best you can or the verdict or settlement, then what happens to that money and what measures you're taking to protect to make sure that this person is protected, not only so that they've got funds, but also protected that those funds are adequate to take care of them. Yeah, I the first, the first step that you have to recognize, as a financial advisor that works with these types of cases as that this is one-time money. Unlike traditional wealth management, where you're dealing with high net worth individuals or professionals that have recurring income, you have to start with the premise is, hey, this is their one at-bat, and they're not going to get another at-bat, this money has to really be there for their ongoing care. So understanding that component, and then to really spending the time and working with their professionals, care managers, nursing staff, so on and so forth. So you understand, as best you can, what medical needs are unique to this person and their injury going forward. So that those are the first two steps that you initially take to understand where you are and where you're going. And then once you have an understanding around that is to build, you know, try to put together a portfolio that today is invested in such a way based on historical performance and, and, and, and, and, and other factors where you can invest it in the right way, in order to try to ensure that that money is there for when they need it on a going-forward basis. Understanding that trying to guess the medical needs of that person for the next 25 years is was a moving target. Because things can get worse things can get better new technologies, new procedures. So, you have to build enough flexibility within that within that structure to allow that. And then I think and I think that's where the whole team comes in. Because you've got to work with physicians, you've got to work with life care planners, you've got to, you know, best you can sort of take that crystal ball and say, Okay, this 19-year-old who has a devastating injury, brain injury, whatever it is, but they're going to live you know another 60 years. So how do we make sure that's all taken care of? And then I guess, you know, you've got to intertwine with that to say, Okay. And sometimes it's not 100% recovery, because you've got liability issues or there's, there are limits. So how do we maximize this money? And, and I think one of the things that are changed, and we'll talk about the court guardianship aspect, but where people like you have come in and made a difference. For the longest time, it was, well, let's just buy him an annuity. Okay. And that'll pay him out for 20 years. And, and, and courts like that, because courts are protecting this money. But you've been able to see that change and been very successful in showing courts. Wait a minute, that annuity, it's going to hurt him this amount over that, but there are much better ways to do it. So, talk about that kind of change in the practice? Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do less about the product of an annuity and a structure. And, and the old adage, wave, like you said, that the courts would think we want to create an annuity stream around this is that, hey, this is safe money, we can't we want to limit volatility, which is, it's the right concept of, of perceived risk. But the risk is more than that. Because with an annuity product, you're a victim, not so much of the product of where when the case settles, for example, since 2008, interest rates have been extremely low. So as a result, those annuities haven't created the kind of growth, that that would allow that money to grow substantially. And in the end, medical inflation during the last 20 years, for example, has gone up a little bit under 5%. So, there's an inflection point there. So, I think what's changed is the definition of risk where it used to be, hey, I want to make sure I limit volatility as that was the only risk factor. I think the courts, the attorneys, and even the structure settlement brokers have realized there are other risks, outliving your money is, is a huge risk. So low returns do affect the fact that with a fixed annuity payment if medical costs increase by that amount, the annuity payment isn't structured to grow at the same pace. So even if the means are stagnant, or mean or linear, then it gets to a point where the expense creates a problem in the future. So as a result of that, I think judges attorneys, and, and clients have said, maybe the right approach is to have not one solution to the problem is more of a combined strategy on what to deliver. So as a result, I work a lot with structure settlement brokers, right, right, where we analyze the situation, client per client, and we come together and say, given the particulars of this client, a combined approach in this way is the best approach. And I think that that works out well for all sides. And it really does. And you and I have done that in cases and you know, fortunate nice recovers, and now, you look at how well, the client is, is doing under the circumstances with that protection, and it affords you know, the family, the protection and everything else. I think one of the other things that people don't understand is, is the critical role. The courts play in this because somebody's got to safeguard this to say, no offense, but to financial planners or lawyers or, or families, which oftentimes, you see it's not money for them, you know, and so things have to be approved by the court. guardianships have to be opened annual filings. So, you've got I'm sure be involved in that. Make sure, hey, every year this is filed. So, some judges looking at this going. Okay, you know, this is good. We haven't seen a chunk of money disappear that wasn't supposed to, you know, disappear. So talk about your role than with the courts, sort of on the guardianship end of things. Yeah. So on the guardianship, exactly what you just mentioned, the courts are saying, I understand the need to have this money be protected, but at the same time grow for this either incapacitated person or this minor. So within that, and the statutes that govern guardianships, that, you know, it's although they don't tell you how to invest, it's governed by something called the prudent investor rule. So they leave it up to the fiduciary, but it should limit you to what you got to what we do. In other words, even if I like a certain stock, even if I like Apple, it's not that I would put 100% in one company, right? So you have to have a diversified type of portfolio. And, and, and, and have a disciplined approach to that. So they take care of the investment side of it, but they also, you know, engage institutions that are familiar with not only the court system and their obligations but that have the infrastructure to make sure that no distributions are done. without a court order, and that the accountings are done on time, and that there's a, a level of understanding and knowledge around how those instruments work and, and the limitations and restrictions that a guardianship provides. Alright, so we talked about setting up these Guardianships. And you, you bring up an interesting point, because one of the things I people may not understand, we talked about incapacitated people that have significant needs, but this system also in place, for any minor, that by law, just by being under the age of 18, is declared incapacitated, that if they get a case, and let's say automobile accident, they break their leg, there's a recovery, there may not be this long string of future medical needs, but that money has to be protected for that minor till they reach the age of majority. And, and then, you know, again, different products sometimes, because you don't necessarily want to work with parents, we don't want to give an 18-year-old chunk of money, so we can do things that say, okay, here for the first four years, sort of this, this could be designated as college money, and then maybe at 25, or 30, when they hit that age, so talk about how you deal with minors and the families on that, that isn't incapacity, but they have an injury, they're going to recover, but they're going to have some money. And, and that happens a lot. That happens a lot when even if minors that aren't incapacitated, they just received the funds because you know, their father or mother are no longer there through whatever, that still has to go into a restricted account. So, in, there's When, when, when dealing with that with those types of issues, there's a lot of consultation with the parents with the attorneys and the judges, because there's always a fine line, whereas, you know, it is money is awarded to the child, right. Now, if it was if that money is awarded, because of the loss of a parent, right then during their, their childhood up until they turn 18, you have to understand that that money also has to complement their living needs, because now there's only one parent to support and this money is there because to substitute the second parent from a financial point of view. So if that's the case, you have to make sure that during from age, whatever the settlement is to age 18, it's flexible enough that they get that kind of help. And then we get into the conversation around what happens at age 18. The guardianship typically will say that at age 18, the guardianship ceases and the child will receive the money. Right? That's obviously concerning to some parents and judges and some attorneys, right. And there's also and is also, you know, something to talk about, but at the same time, some judges also recognize, hey, He is an adult, he's capacitated. It's his money. So there has to be some balance around it. Right. So a lot of discussions have to go around, okay, how to structure it the right way that you meet both sides. So maybe you do guardianship for part of the funds that you know, he's going to get the funds, he or she gets the funds at age 18. But then, with a structured settlement, you can say, well, in addition, since we know he's getting a lump sum at 18, maybe we do the structured settlement where they pay another lump sum at 22 at 26 at 30. So that way, it allows him liquidity at age 18. But also, some protection if some bad financial decisions are made when they're young. So a lot of consultation again with attorneys, judges, The Guardian Ad Litem, and then the family. Okay, and you throw out guardian ad, litem and judges. So, let's talk about that role. Because again, I think it's interesting, the oversight that the judges have, because we as lawyers, will put this together, we'll get a settlement, we'll get people like you, we'll put a plan together. And then the courts going to say, Okay, we're going to appoint a lawyer that has nothing to do with this case. He's going to review or she's going to review everything. And then she's going to give a report and recommendation to me as the court, which I'll look at, and then I'm going to bring the lawyers in. And oftentimes people like you to say, Okay, what's the plan? And why is this in the best interest of this minor child or this incapacitated person? Yeah, and they play a critical role. Because, as you know, as we know, that we went when the cases are going on, and pre-settlement or verdict, there's a relationship that's built with the parents, and so on and so forth, or with the child. So you go into it, knowing the players, the fact that the court comes in and says, I want someone that doesn't have those relationships and potential biases, and look at it only as a representative of either the minor or the incapacitated person and say I want a second pair of eyes independent, to make sure that the proposed plan is the right thing. For, for that individual. So they play an integral part, they do also a great job of speaking to the family speaking to the financial advisor, speaking to the attorneys to make sure that what was your thinking when you propose this plan? And then there's a lot of dialogue on whether, hey, this makes sense. This doesn't make sense. Maybe we should tweak it here or not change it at all. And I think that that dialogue, and for all of our sakes, the attorneys, the family, and the financial advisor, I think it's a, it's a, it's a good way to have a fresh pair of eyes come in and say, Hey, I concur with your thinking, or maybe you forgot this. And I think I think they played a critical job of critical role in the process. Well, and it's an important role. And I mean, I'm fortunate enough, you know, I frequently will get that call from certain judges to say, Hey, I'm going to appoint you as a guardian ad litem on this, you know, and that's a critical role because you're looking at that. And now you're another member of this team, to say, how are we making sure that everything is monetized, maximized? And protected? For the best interest of this child? And again, you know, yeah, you could lock it in a savings account, then give it to them, you know, but that's not to the best benefit of the minor or the incapacitated person. So it's, it's an interesting, dynamic with a lot of moving parts involved. Yes. Alright. So talk about these, where they get monies and everything else, but now there's an intricate balance of wanting to maximize to make sure they retain benefits that they're entitled to. So what's done then to make sure, you know, if they're on Medicaid, because of this incapacitated, or getting other governmental benefits, what can be done to say, Well, wait a minute, now they have money, are they going to lose this benefit? And how do you balance those two? Yeah, and part of the role of my team and the advisors at the time is to that in the analysis of how much money do we need to take care of this person going forward, we try as much as possible to analyze not only what they have, but what they could have if they don't have it yet. And we look at what's called collateral sources. Collateral sources could be Medicare, could be Medicaid, or any of those, those programs. So we, we look at them, and we say, okay if they don't have it, this is what we're going to do. And if they do have it, this is how we're going to protect it. Some, collateral, I mean, collateral benefits do not affect the settlement or are affected by the settlement somewhere. For example, in the case of giving us an example, that's typically the one that comes up the most is Medicaid, Medicaid, or section eight, or any government housing that's needs-based, right? Well, typically, you know, those programs are exactly what they are needs-based. So if you would take and they have income limits and asset limits, if you take a certain amount of assets, it might be a disqualifying event, where it might be, you know, given that their medical conditions might be a severe change to what they have. So we tried to incorporate a strategy to say, let's try to maintain these collateral benefits, and still manage the money because it makes the money last longer. And there are certain vehicles that we can do that with, for example, one of the ones you mentioned early, what's it with special needs trust, right? In a special needs trust is a widely used mechanism that allows the settlement recipient, even though they're receiving a large number of assets, that would normally be a disqualifying event, it, it allows it to be not considered a countable asset, against their, against the needs-based program, and allow that person to continue with their nursing care and their and their medical care. And the vehicle then allows them to maintain that and upon God forbid, they're, they're passing the trust at that point would have to pay Medicaid back first, whatever they paid, and then the remainder goes to the to their heirs. Okay, which is hugely important, because, again, if you lose those benefits, I mean, most settlements are going to have enough money to cover all of that when you get into some of those things, some of the nursing care, home health care, things like that, you want to maximize. And so, again, it takes this sort of entire team approach to you know, hard enough to get the money and litigate that everything else. But when you do that team approach, and I think it's so important, you know, when you talk to lawyers who do this type of work, like myself, and my partner is not only the quality of the lawyer, who are the people they surround themselves with, who are the people that they use, if it's going to be this case of this nature, because it's not just getting the money's one thing, but if that's for the remainder of somebody's life, there's a lot of work to be done to get there. Right. Right. And, and, and, again, those are all moving parts and things that have to be considered, you know, and then once that is established, The then the monitoring, that's why the institution or whoever the team is, is important because how you distribute can also be a disqualifying event. So if you're going to pay for some expenses or distribute monies, you have to make sure that whatever you're giving doesn't trigger,, an increase in income, that might just be a disqualifying event, or that might let money accumulate outside of the trust, that would also be a disqualifying event. So there's a lot of ongoing dialogue and analysis after the settlement. And after that, the account is established, where we have to take into account to make sure we do it right. Well, and it also you get into other cases, now with older people and Medicare, and now you've got to do what is called Medicare set-asides. Because of your recovering future medical benefits, you want to make sure you're not jeopardizing that person's ability to receive Medicare. So and that's probably a whole other topic for a whole other show. It's becoming, it's becoming more and more prevalent in the analysis, because, you know, more as more people as we have an elderly population, and they get older, Medicare stuff starts coming to the analysis as well. So, what makes you passionate about all this, I mean, you've carved this niche out, you, you've gotten into this community of lawyers, again, how you and I met and have had success on that and others, but what, what makes you passionate about it? You know, and I thought long and hard. And I know this is a kill the lawyer show, I'm going to, I'm going to give props to, to the attorneys in two ways, and then I'll get it to answer your question. One is, you know, the respect I have, that, that you, the attorneys, like, you stand up for those that can't stand up for themselves, you know, and, and you, you give everyone an opportunity within the civil justice system to have their day in court. So that's something that I admire all the time. So, the fact that I can be a part of that process is, is extremely rewarding. But the bigger part is, is that I because I manage these clients going forward, I get to determine two things. Alright, see two things, one, the change in their lives, that we can do, that we're there, you know, in their most difficult times going forward, you know, my team and I will get phone calls, at 10 o'clock on a Sunday or nine o'clock, hey, my air conditioning broke, my, this isn't working. And we have a team of people that we can talk to, to go immediately to fix air conditioning, and then fix appliances and stuff like that. So that kind of instant feedback of getting some getting a thank you from somebody that was at a very tough place that you helped them out during its constant affirmation that we're doing the right thing. And I also get the ability to think through unfortunately, my children in my other team members get to see is how would they be if the settlement wasn't there? How would their life be if that wasn't there, the fact that I can be a part of that process, right is hugely rewarding. You get sometimes, you know when you're dealing in traditional wealth management, where you're dealing with CEOs, or you know, you don't get that that instant gratification, it's about returns, and about maximizing returns in this at the other here. It's real-life differences. It's someone that needs a generator that needs things like that. So you get it's basically a thank you that is deep-felt on their end, and I can't think of a more rewarding part of my job. So that's what makes me passionate about it. The more I do it, the more I want to do. Well, well, well stated my friend, always a pleasure. I enjoy working with you and look forward to many more years of that. And while he's not a lawyer, we'll keep him off the list. Even though it's closely associated with lawyers. I think we can take you off the kill list. I stayed on Holiday Inn Express, I stayed. Alright, my friend, I really appreciate it. Felipe Blanco has great insight on some interesting stuff. I appreciate the opportunity. You got it. All right. That's going to wrap this one up. We'll see you next week.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan. I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for a little over three decades, hard to admit that. And the goal behind this podcast was simple. You know that that line uttered back in the 15th century by Dick the Butcher, lawyers love to argue, oh, that was flattering of lawyers. But the bottom line is people laughed, okay. And people still laugh when they hear it today because people think it's not a bad idea. So, the goal here is kind of one by one. Let's bring some people in. Let's introduce you to some South Florida lawyers get to know him a little bit, what they do varying aspects of law, and maybe one by one, we can kind of take them off the kill list. My guest this morning, checks a lot of boxes for me. First off, a phenomenal, phenomenal trial lawyer. Been doing this just about as long as I have. But good friend, a fellow member of the Orange Bowl committee, and kind of all around good guy. So Kevin, welcome. Hey, good morning. Thank you, Dave. I am not sure I should get all his accolades, but I'll take them especially from somebody like you. I appreciate it. So Kevin is located in South Florida and has gone over to the West Coast. Kevin's over in Naples and the partner Wicker Smith and Kevin, I looked at it. I mean, Wicker Smith's been around a long time, we've seen lots of things change in the landscape of South Florida, and a lot of firms come and go and a lot of the stalwarts when you and I first started practicing, they're not there anymore. Still hectares and things like that. Wicker Smith's been around a long time and done well. So talk a little bit about wicker Smith. Well, sure, I'm happy to you know, wicker Smith is as you know, started as a kind of an old-time Miami firm with a couple of guys I just wicker, and James Smith. And I don't think they could have possibly imagined that their little law firm would grow into this nearly 300 Lawyer law firm that we have that has actually branched outside of even South Florida and Florida. You know, we have 11 offices in the state of Florida. We also have offices in Georgia, we just opened up Atlanta, but we've had one in South Georgia for a few years. We have an office in Nashville, Tennessee, and we have an office all the way out in Phoenix, Arizona for some unexplainable reason. Now, we have a terrific partner out there. And, and we just sort of grown. And the interesting thing about wicker Smith's growth is that we grow what we call organically. In other words, you know, some firms will go into a town and they'll go look for a lawyer or a particular type of practice to buy or to purchase, or to merge with wicker Smith's growth has been more organic, meaning that we would have somebody who was a wicker Smith lawyer, move to a different town and open it up, because that person knew how wicker Smith ran their office and ran the shop. And that's what I did, right? You know, I'm a Miami guy, as you know, I worked in the Miami office for a few years. And we got a call from a client over on the west coast that said, hey, the firm that used to represent us is actually decided to go be plaintiffs law firms. And so, they're not going to defend our hospitals and doctors anymore. And would you guys do that? And so, they, Tom Graham, who was one of our senior partners at the time, was kind of winding his career down and said, Yeah, I'll go to Naples, which I think was where everybody goes, when they wind their career down. And he opened this office up, and about six months later, he had more work than he could do. And some of the senior guys came to me and said, Hey, would you consider going to Naples, Tom is going to retire in the next few years. And we'd like to build an office over there. So that's what I did. And it was a blessing. It was a challenge. It was a sacrifice, because I you know, I was a Miami kid. I grew up there. I had family, as you know, in the health care world, my dad, and I had some pretty good connections. But this was an opportunity that even to me, I could tell this was a super chance. And I've been blessed that it's worked out as well as, as well as it has. And we've sort of done that around the state opening up different offices where mostly it's a lawyer that started in one and transitioned up and opened up an office for us. So that's kind of how wicker has grown. And we've been really fortunate. We are going to talk about your practice in a minute. But you know, in looking at the BIOS and going over this, I'm scanning things and I'm like, looking at all the offices and I go, wait, they have an office at Palmetto Bay, in the village of Palmetto Bay, which I live in. So I was surprised to see that pleasant to see at the old Burger King headquarters. I guess you guys have taken some space in there. It's just good to know because when I'm going to run for village idiot, which I plan to do at some point, I know I can have the backing of wicker Smith now that they're in Palmetto Bay. Absolutely. We can round up some votes for you for that. All right, well, let's go back a little bit. You are Miami guys, as you said. So, tell me a little bit. I know you're a noble. What is it that prompted you then to get into law? Was that something you always wanted to do? Or what sort of drove you to law school and, and the practice of law? So yeah, I did. I graduated from Florida State. I didn't know much about the school until I started looking around. Yep, I wanted to play sports. So that was kind of that was part of my drive. I got some really good advice, David, about my junior year, I started thinking I really want to go to law school. I think that's what I want to do. I used to play tennis on Saturday afternoons and mornings with my dad and a group of mostly his friends. But you know, looking back on it, it was quite a collection of the who's who, in Miami. You know, we had federal appellate court judges like judge Pete Fay that would play tennis with us every Saturday and I go have lunch with them and write nothing I knew him as Judge Bay. And that was the nice source to get some information from as to what the whole thing is about very well respected. There were a number of lawyers that also played in that group. One guy that in particular that sticks out is a former divorce lawyer. He's now passed away Ed Vining, who was a good friend of mine, and he was a terrific storyteller, as many trial lawyers are. And he used to just regale us at lunch. We used to go to this place called villain Ted. I'm sure you remember Bill Clinton, I know it. Well. There are things I don't remember for Bill and Ted's but I do know Well, exactly. So, we'd sit there, and advising would regale us with these. Now, I realize maybe some fantastical stories about how he would try this great cause. And he would make this judge cry on the bench. And I'm sure that never happened. But either way, they were just fascinating stories. And I thought, Well, I think maybe I would like to do that. I'd like to be a lawyer. So, I started talking about that with my dad, in my junior year. And my dad gave me some really good advice at that time. He said, Look, it's a good profession. I think you would do great, but I'm going to give you the advice to take a year off before you go to law school after you graduate. And he said, Go do something, right. Because I'm not you can't just lay around, I'm not going to support you but go work. You know, go to Europe and travel and work your way around and maybe go to Colorado and work a ski season. And what jumped out to me as I had a buddy of mine and I went to high school with whose father sold all of the catering to the cruise ship industry. And so he had sold this company to Royal Caribbean. I reached out to his son who I knew and I said hey, Lou, is there anything fun to do on a cruise ship? I'd never even been on a cruise ship, right? Oh, yeah. You want to be an assistant cruise director. I was like, Okay, that sounds fun. So, David, I took my dad's advice. I took a year off between undergrad and law school and I signed up and worked as an assistant cruise director for the Royal Caribbean cruise line. And it was a terrific year I cruised three and four-day cruises to the Bahamas. And then I did seven-day cruises to the Eastern Caribbean. And then seven-day cruises to the Western Caribbean, I met people from all over the world who still have friends to this day of people that I met working on a cruise ship. So that was sort of a nice detour. But it was really good advice to sort of getaway because you know, once you go to law school, and you get out, you know, you're on the wheel, right? You can't, there's no year to take off, especially right out of law school. So it was a great time, it was a good break for me. And then I went to law school, which I had to I deferred my acceptance a year. And the rest is sort of as we say legal history. Alright, the only question I have then is so let me get this right. You're an assistant cruise director. You're hanging out on cruise ships with beautiful young women and men and everything else. You've got drink tickets at your access to give them out to entertain and you came back and went to law school like I'm sorry. Why are you not a cruise director today? Okay, I can I can understand the question about that I get asked that a lot. I will tell you to know it's an interesting life to literally just pick up and live on a cruise ship for years what I did because I You're never off right so and as a cruise assistant cruise director you know I was Julie from The Love Boat right and it's really the service industry and so anytime that you were out of your cabin, you were in an I was in sort of a polo shirt and shorts or slacks and I but I was on the right because people were always coming up to ask me what to do or where to go or I was hosting games you know I used to run bingo and eat shooting off the back of the ship was kind of fun and I would call these gambling horse races and then, believe it or not, we did song and dance gets that. You know they were crazy. enough to teach me and put me up there. And so, it was a lot of fun. But it was your whole life, right? I mean, I literally didn't see my friends as I came home, maybe once a month when the boat would port, you know if I had a few hours off, I could run over or my parents could come to see me and my brother. So, I mean, it was sort of an all-encompassing life. And yeah, but there were days when I was sitting in contracts class, my first year on a Thursday when I Oh, yeah, well, right now that boat is cruising by Cuba on its way to make that what am I doing, I'm just making a quick note, I want to reach out to your dad and your brother to find those videos, just because I think we could get some mileage out of I get you doing songs and dances. Matter of fact, the next time we have a case together, might pop up at mediation, it's just a chance as leverage. Alright, so let's talk about your Curcas. Because you've done very well, you certainly didn't go to wind down a career on the West Coast, you went over to Naples. And now, in essence, I think, control a large portion of all of the defense work for physicians and hospitals. And you've done very, very nicely in getting networked within that. But I want to talk about there's a couple of aspects to your career. One, I know you do litigation because obviously you and I have gone head to head and I'm sure we'll go head to head again. But I know you do a lot of administrative and stuff on the licensing of things and everything else with physicians. So talk about the administrative portion, because I don't think people think about that much. Yeah, it's good, it's a good question. And it really is a critical aspect to a profession, you know, we're licensed and we are regulated by the bar, in the same way that we're regulated by the bar, the doctors and healthcare providers are regulated by the Department of Health. And then the different boards that they have, like the Board of Medicine at the Board of Nursing. And when I got to law school, did the first job that I really took was as a hired as a prosecuting attorney for what was then the Agency for Healthcare Administration, it was all one agency. And at the time, aka as it's called, regulated both hospitals and practitioners, and a lot and Chiles or governor created the Department of Health and they moved all the regulatory of practitioners over to the Department of Health, and the regulatory aspects of hospitals remained with aka. So, I worked with Aqua for a year and a year, and they split it and I was given the choice to go one way or the other. So I went with the Department of Health and I prosecuted doctors and nurses for that year. And what I think a lot of people maybe don't realize is that you know, you and I maybe have these massive mid-mount cases where you know, the risks are big for everybody. But the damages are, you know, oftentimes catastrophic, and people are looking for millions of dollars. But the risk on the regulatory side is the loss of a license short and loss of the ability to earn an income, right? If a doctor has a med mal case against them, and they lose their insurance carrier, they end up paying monies, okay, but they go on with their career, right? If you get a license, if you get your ticket pulled, so to speak, you've lost the ability to earn a living. So they are really important, significant cases. And that's what I did for a couple of years. So then when, I got hired into the private sector, first at a law firm called Stephens limb where I was for a couple of years. And then my partner Oscar Cabaniss. And I came over to wicker defending doctors and hospitals. It was a real boost to me because I knew that world and not a lot of lawyers that do medical malpractice, defense work, knew the regulatory stuff, certainly not having been behind the scenes, like I was, you know, like a state attorney had been for criminal This was essential that for medical malpractice. So it was, it was a really good opportunity was a good experience for me. And I tried a bunch of cases, you know, administrative cases, it was everything but a jury. So, you know, I had no idea what I was doing. And I learned and watched and like all of us, but it was great. By the time I became a defense lawyer a couple of years later, you know, I tried 30 or 40 administrative trials, and some big ones. I mean, I took licenses from people I didn't the board did, but there were some very, very serious bad actors. A very small number, obviously, you know, it's, it's like any profession, most of our lawyers, believe it or not, are terrific people and go into the profession for all the right reasons. I believe that about doctors as well. You know, that the old adage is there, they're going into it for money. There are a lot easier ways to make money these days than then going to medical school and being a doctor if you can, as you know, right. But, you know, occasionally there's a bad actor and the board is pretty tough and pretty serious about trying to keep those people out of it. So That was a good, good experience. And I still to this day, I represent a lot of healthcare providers and facilities, hospitals, nursing homes, ALS, that kind of thing, in their regulatory issues dealing with aka and the Department Health. Yeah, I just think that gives you sort of a solid basis that we don't see. I mean, you know, I teach the law school, the trial program, and I think the difficulty now, for young lawyers coming out, is getting any type of courtroom experience. So again, whether it's admin or not, you're on your feet, you're on a judge that, you know, in front of a judge, there's going to be an outcome. I mean, that experience is invaluable. And then I think prosecuting on that, and to then switch over and now defend has to be an interesting transition. Yeah, I think that was kind of always my goal. You know, when I, when I got into it, as you know, young, my dad was a hospital CEO in South Florida for you know, his career. Right. And, you know, so I, once I got into law, and I started thinking about, you know, what I wanted to do, I knew I wanted to litigate, right, I like that I was enough of a ham, but I was an assistant cruise director, so I wasn't up to talk to people. And I gravitated very much towards litigation in law school to my clerkships during and whatnot. So I think I always had the goal of going back and defending hospitals. This was sort of just a good jumping-off point for that. But it really did give me a good perspective. And I think, you know, you and I both know, we have friends on both sides of the aisle, quite, quite frankly, you know, some of my closest friends, you being one of them, are plaintiff's lawyers. I think we all anybody who does this long enough begins to appreciate there are good plaintiffs cases, and there are good defense cases. Sure. And there's a lot better in the middle. Well, the same thing is with from the regulatory side, right there were doctors that absolutely should have been prosecuted and ought to have some discipline. And there were many that don't ever wind up doing that or need that same thing. During the transition to the defense side, I see the vast majority of cases that I see our doctors trying their best to do a good job. And we have an unfortunate outcome. Sometimes it's a doctor's fault. It is. And sometimes it's not, it's the inexorable process of whatever disease they had. Or it simply is a known complication, as you hear all the time. I mean, things happen every day to people, whether it's in a hospital or driving down the road, that isn't always somebody's fault. Sometimes it is, but not all the time. So I will tell you that the one real aspect that I love about what I do, right, and I gotta tell you, I mean, you and I know tons of lawyers, and I don't know how many enjoy it the way that you and I do I know you have a real, I think the word is a passion for it and, and it shows you're a terrific trial lawyer. And we know the people that have that passion. And we know, we know, some of the dumps, right? I feel like I have that, that passion for representing healthcare providers. And I think it begins and ends David with the fact that my belief is these people wake up every day, to go to work to help people. I get to wake up every day to go to work to represent people who go to work every day to help people. And so I still think that that's a terrific calling. So I really enjoy and I'm passionate about the opportunity to represent those people that have had that calling. Well, and you do it well. And your reputation stands out there for a reason. Okay. And I think you've pegged it, you know because I was going to ask you, you know, what, what still makes you passionate. We've done it a long time. I think we see a lot of people in this profession. burnouts, probably too strong a phrase, but you know, they're, they're kind of done with it all, they still work hard, they represent their clients. But a lot of times you're going more through the motions than then really pushing things, but I think, you know, you just exemplified the passion you have for this work. And you know, you see it and unfortunately, I see it when I'm on the other side of you because I know you're going to, you know, we're, everybody's going to go through the paces at the top level. And again, on both sides of this, we're problem solvers. Somebody comes to us with a problem. And the question is, and look, be easy if it was black and white. And we could plug-in algorithms and say, here's the outcome doesn't work that way. There's, you know, more than varying shades of gray. And that's why there are all of these disputes, because the ones that are blatant, one way or the other, either just blatantly a bad plaintiff's case or bad defense case. Those generally get taken care of pretty early because lawyers on both sides look at it and go, Yeah, this is what we got to do on this and take care of it. But so let's talk about the medical field a little bit only with COVID, which Just seems to linger on longer than we think and the impact that's had but talk about how that's impacted the practice of what you've done. We've talked about it over here. I think the Miami Dade County judges, our judges have done a really good job of continuing to try to push and adapt to whatever they've had to adapt to, to keep the justice system moving. So talk about the west coast a little bit. I know, I know, the Naples judges have been all on this. And you know, again, case management and moving cases. But how did it impact your practice? Well, yeah, so obviously, it's impacted our practice in our lives. And basically, what we do almost every day, right, I mean, we're doing this by, you know, video conference, or zoom, or, you know, what have you. We've had to learn to evolve into working that way. And I think it's not, I think it's here to stay whether, you know, hopefully, COVID resolves, and it's in the near future. But I think some of the changes that we have evolved into, I think, are probably here to stay for a while, the west coast of Florida, I think, has taken a slightly different approach to it than the East Coast. And you know, quite frankly, we've been back trying cases now, for more than a year, right. You know, we've had some, I'll call it maybe soft openings of the courthouses, and then they were wide open, and then they would narrow back a little bit, but I think the West Coast, especially southwest Florida, so that's our 20th circuit, right. So that's calling your county, Lee County, Charlotte County, and Sarasota County, they have, pretty much we're the first ones to jump back in after COVID and have live courtroom proceedings and have trials. So we, you know, we started back with trials where everybody was wearing masks, with, you know, sort of lots of precautions in place and bringing jurors in one at a time. And that evolved into bringing more jurors in at once. And then the mask mandates went away. And I think we were sort of the first ones, we were the line leader, at least in Florida, have a lot of that. And you know, a lot of that credit, quite frankly, goes to our judges that we do have a really terrific judiciary over here. And they were, they were motivated and interested in making sure that the people who wanted their day in court, whether it was the plaintiff or the defense, that they were getting that opportunity, and you know, you know, as well as anybody, that's what, that's what drives a lot of this case, that's you know, got to have that to move the case. So, yeah, obviously, the changes that we've all seen, with a lot more remote access and remote working, that that was an evolution for us. Because, you know, I can tell you as a firm, you know, quite frankly, we were not really set up to accommodate remote working, you know, when we had to right, right, you know, we have remote access, obviously, but it was fairly limited. And not a lot of people utilize that back then. Back then two years ago. Right. seems longer. It does longer, but we you know, we very quickly adapted and, you know, I think we were navigating through uncertain times, because, you know, from our side, we were concerned are the cases going to continue to come in, are we going to be able to do the work at, especially at the level that, you know, wicker Smith requires and demands and holds themselves out to do that. And, you know, we learned, we learned very quickly, the people are folks, and I think, broader than just our firm, but the especially the young lawyers, were very capable of working and did do terrific jobs, working remotely, you know, a lot of the young lawyers 10 years and younger, when they went to law school, he was sitting on their beds with a laptop, you know, typing their briefs and doing the research. So working in that setting, as opposed to you know, going to the library or, or having an office to go to or a meeting room to collaborate kind of like what we used to try to do. They were perfectly comfortable sitting in a remote area and doing the work and getting it all done. So, fortunately, I think what we saw was that that translated into, into the young lawyers, and even the older lawyers like us, our ability to work from home and do that. You know, one of the aspects that we sort of did discover and this is that we do feel like our youngest lawyers, and our senior-most lawyers, we're probably better off having that group in the offices, at least to some degree because the younger lawyers are going to it can be a revolving door in and out of my office and you know, managing Office managing partners offices, and they do need that direction. I know I needed it when I was you know the lawyers that are senior attorneys, senior associates, and junior partners, whatnot that don't need the day-to-day, as much day-to-day help. Are terrific working from home and we have some that are, you know, that is there permanently for a variety of reasons or whatnot. But I think we've really seen that people can adapt right and accommodate to what obstacles get put in front of them. We've done that as a firm, you see it as a society. So, you know, I'm encouraged about where we're going to go with some of the changes that have been made, I think the three day trip out to California to take an expert, probably winding down, you know because you can't get over and back in a day and whatnot, that that deposition can now really effectively be taken remotely and on Zoom, and it's a cost-saving to the client. I don't think there's there's some aspect and dynamic that's lost when it's not in person. So I still try to do in-person depots of key witnesses. But, you know, there's not a need to run out across the country for every single witness anymore. Like, like we used to have to do. It's, there's not a need, except it was really nice, because that was a time you could grab a nice dinner with opposing counsel, you know, and make that trip. And I think I agree with everything you've said. I think the one component that gets kind of lost in that, though, is the camaraderie among lawyers, not only within their own firms. Okay. And, and I know for me sometimes, and we're a small firm, but you know, just verbalizing things with Mark and going over things. One, either he comes up with an angle that I didn't think, or sometimes I just verbalize it, come up with an angle. And the other aspect that I think is missed, although I agree with you haven't motion practice, and everything via Zoom is so more efficient. But it might be running into that opposing counsel at the courthouse and grabbing, you know, accorded detail afterward outside and, and I think things move sometimes because of those dynamics, and they're just going to be missed, you know, we've got to pivot and figure it out. But I missed some of that aspect and hope to some degree that returns. Oh, for sure. I mean, you know, look, people used to talk about cases got settled, after the hearing from the walk out of the courtroom to the car because you write the opposing counsel, or, you know what, when you and I litigate against each other, we had depositions out of the state, we, we went to Ohio, we took depositions of one expert, we had, I don't know a couple of our drive to take a deposition of another expert. And you and I shared a real car, and we were friends anyway, we would have done that. But that's I would have done that with a lot of opposing counsel. Sure. And, and I do think you're 100%. Right. You know, one of the benefits that your clients get and my clients get is the ability to develop relationships across the aisle, because it's like anything, quite frankly, I feel like I am much more effective for my clients, if I have a good working relationship with my opposing counsel, as opposed to the, you know, some people want to just draw swords from the binding, and don't want to try to work cooperatively, whatnot, I think part of our job is to, is to bridge that gap, you know, clearly, our clients have this divergent view of what happened and we're never going to convince them right, I'm not going to convince your client that my client is right, and vice versa. But you know, by being advocates that are not personally involved in the event that we're advocating for, it does give us that opportunity, to come at it from a little bit more neutral space. And I couldn't agree more that the opportunity to have a one on one time or, you know, develop relationships and friendships is critical to our practice. And I do hope that I think that will continue, obviously, but I certainly do agree that's part of that has been lost with this. Alright, well, we could talk about this for a long, long time. And I'm sure we will over other conversations and through Orange Bowl functions or just seeing you here in town or, or whatnot, but appreciate it. Always fun catching up and spending time. Hopefully, we we've taken this defense lawyer even though as a defense lawyer, you know, where's the black hat? We wear white hats. Just kidding. But sort of taken that to show that you know here's another guy, I think we can safely take off the kill list. Wow, that's terrific. I appreciate that. Bless that you have me on here and happy to do it. David. Look forward to Kevin. All right. That's another episode of First off let's kill all the lawyers.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan and I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for nearly three decades. And the goal behind this show and we get a lot of feedback, it's a Shakespeare quote, that he meant it as a compliment. It might have meant it as a compliment, but people laughed when that line was uttered back in the 15th century. And there are people that today still think killing all the lawyers, maybe not be a bad idea. So, goal behind this podcast is to bring in other local in South Florida. And actually, we've had people out of state international lawyers to kind of introduce them to the community find out about what they do, and maybe one by one, we'll take a few of them off the kill list. My guest this morning is a friend, a classmate, we were reminiscing unfortunate goes back further than we'd like to recall. And my goal is to get them off the kill list. But I might have a hard time because I've got an issue because apparently Gary hasn't aged in the 30 years since we went to law school, my guest, Gary Mars, looking great, my friend. Welcome to the show. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. All right. So let's, let's talk a little bit just sort of general background, what is it that got you and then we're going to get into? You know, you've been in a very specialized practice for the last 30 years. But what got you into law school? What was it always a desire to be a lawyer? Was it you know, I wasn't sure what I was going to do, or where did it? Where did it start? Yeah, there are those that are, I think, are those of us who there that is a bit freaky. So, I've always been prime, pretty much designed to be a lawyer. So, I went to Emory undergrad, which is, you know, pretty much a pre professional school. So, everybody was in med, everyone's going to medical school, right about three or four of us on my dorm floor that were going in a different direction. They all ended up half of them probably went into the business school from there, and a few went into law school dribble went into actual loads of medicine, but I was always on a track to be a lawyer, just kind of how I'm wired. So that was kind of a given. But yeah, so by ology, I guess I could say, you've done something that's a little unique and you look at and you know, we're kind of blessed and partner with Mark care, one of our classmates and, you know, we've got a group of people from that long ago that still stay in touch. And it's a nice network of friends to have. But you've done something unique, and that, that you went to a firm coming out of law school, Siegfried Rivera, and you've stayed there, you're a shareholder there, and you've carved out a phenomenal practice there. Talk about sort of that first transition, because oftentimes, lawyers go somewhere, they get their feet wet, they learn a little they go, but you've dug in and build yourself a phenomenal practice at a great firm been around for 40 plus years. But talk about how you went up there. And let's talk about how your practice developed. So, I actually, if you remember, when, when we came out of law school, there was a kind of a little bit of a glut in the market. At that point. I really like bankruptcy. I really was intrigued by the whole, you know, setting up the bankruptcy plans and working through that I thought I was, you know, that was my area. But there weren't a lot of jobs. There were a lot of people lateral laying around at that point, because it was a really bad job market. So, while there was a good job market for laterals, not as good for people coming out, right, right. So, you have to meet you. And you know, the good news with the University of Miami and I guess most law schools are doing it now. You know, we had a really good development

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. This is the 2022 version, which, frankly, feels a lot like 2021. I'm not sure what has changed. One thing that hasn't changed is the reason we do this show. I'm David Heffernan, I've been practicing personal injury law in South Florida for about 30 years now. The goal behind the show as it was uttered in the 15th century by Shakespeare, yes, we can all be open to interpretation. But bottom line is people laughed. And some people still feel like it's a good idea to kill all the lawyers. My goal is to bring in local South Florida lawyers and lawyers from all around actually, and maybe one by one, educate people on what they do who they are. We have realized the quality of the lawyers that we've got in this community and one by one, we can take them off to the kill list. My guest this morning is going to be easy to take off kill list is because not only is he a great lawyer, and we're going to talk about that in a minute. But he's one of the most active people I know in the community, Florida Bar, a guy who really gives something back. Roland Sanchez from Medina. Raleigh, welcome, my friend. Thank you, David. I said, once again, I apologize for all the technical issues, man. Like, like I said, 2022, much like 2021. We just we just deal with it, we pivot and we roll. So let's start with you. Let's start with law school. Why did you go to law school? What was what was the driving? Was it a goal to be a lawyer? What did you want to do? Well, you know, it's interesting, we have a typical immigrant story. As an immigrant, the first thing comes to mind is to feed your family, you know, and there's certain professions in the, in the Cuban culture, that, you know, are sort of tried and true ways of, you know, feeding for your feeding your family, right, you're a calling doctor, doctors, lawyers, and that was sort of I was ushered in that way. And then, by the time I finished University of Miami like you did, it just seemed to be the natural course. And the natural next step for me, in terms of vocation, and the vocation you were starting on, was as a tax lawyer, which I guess if you want security, because taxes are going to be around forever, but you start in the world of tax, what was that appeal? And then let's talk about how that you sort of shifted off that a little bit. You know, I really, you're a litigator, and David, you know, I mean, you worry about things like evidence and other stuff, and things of that nature, or pleadings, and I just had zero interest in any event, in fact, if I had to do what you do, I don't know that I'd still be practicing law. Because I had to do tax, I'd have hung myself a long time ago. I really gravitated towards that and in law school, it's only thing I really liked was the corporate classes, the security transaction, the tax courses, my undergraduate degrees in finance, and economics. And so it seemed to be once again, really the one thing that I liked the most, as I was trying to get my JD. Alright, so you come out, you start kind of that big, firm track, I think it would national firms and everything else, kind of get your feet wet, I'm sure and get that experience, then you decide to do I guess, the great American dream that we all have, you know, start your own firm. Tell me about that. And how is it you got this group of friends together and decided to take that leap? You know, I spent about 15 or 16 years, at, you know, large, large firms haul the night, McDermott will and Emery, where I became a partner. And, you know, I had given it 15 years and still wasn't particularly happy. And day in and day out basis, nothing against the big firms. It was just sort of, you know, the things that I liked the most, and maybe it was a little more entrepreneurial. And because of that, I just decided that after 15 years, you learned you learn a thing or two, just by just by showing up, right? And, you know, it wasn't an easy decision, I you know, that the decision to delete, sort of a nice certain paycheck is not for everybody. But, you know, frankly, for me, it made all the difference in the world. You know, just being able to do my own thing. Work with the people I want to work with, you know, the practice of Lies can be tedious, it's certainly the intensity of it is relentless. And so, sort of who's the people that I'm going to be working with the kind of the kind of stuff that that I wouldn't be doing? Really pretty Jimmy made all the difference in the world in terms of providing some happiness. And because of that, I decided to start my own firm. So you start and you've got a collective group of friends, how was it decided? This is going to be the group. Um, you know, happenstance. One of them is Peter Gonzalez who's a commercial litigator, Peter and I are just we're in addition to be law partners, we're very good friends. Very similar in many ways. There's another lawyer public Assata that the three of us really started, you know, what is now SMG que De Santis Medina, obviously, is an M, and G is Gonzalez, Nikki was Kosala. And Pablos wife, Amelia Kursaal, is also a partner. And so she part of the key really is, is, obviously is her surname as well, too. And so it was really it was people that I liked, they all came from big firms as well. You know, as much as you know, we big firms get criticism, the truth of the matter is, especially for you know, what I do transactional law, you know, there's no better place to get that experience, you know, so the first few years, first 567 years, I mean, I was working, you know, not even a 10s of millions, but hundreds of millions of dollars of transactions. And so you don't you I wouldn't have got that experience anywhere else. And so from that, in that regard, you know, I call him out, you know, 15 years at a big firm, you know, seems like 45 years ago, watching some other things on your way out at that point. Right. So I actually 4545 years of work. So same thing. Yeah, no, I mean, if you look at the time sheet, that's correct, the numbers add up to about 45 years. But it was just, it was time, like, I mean, I was if I was ever going to do it, after about 15 years, it was just, it was opportunity. And then you know, Lord, you don't you know, this, we're risk averse, generally. And so, it was either do it now or never do it. And, and like I said, I had a couple friends, Pablo, and Peter, that really made the decision significantly easier in order for me to take that step. So, tell me about the firm now. I mean, because you pretty broad, what you do. I mean, you've sort of got this boutique firm, but you offer a lot of the services that the big firms offer. And tell me about sort of the practices that are there, and what's the philosophy behind your firm? Yeah, no. And, and so at our firm, you know, we've been we've been growing just by finding lawyers that we'd like personally. But also, you know, there's two requirements, you have to be a good person, you have got to be a good lawyer. Right. And so, we have a wide array of services. You know, we have Lesley eagle, who's, you know, one of the best entertainment lawyers in the southeast. We have David Pena, who's an immigration attorney. You know, we obviously have commercial litigators, Peter Gonzalez, and then we get solid. Mitch manlier. I mean, Carlos Garcia, Perez, I mean, we, you know, we could offer a whole, like, a whole team of litigators. We have transactional guys, Joe Gomez, who was a partner at David voices forum at Boys. Boys. Schiller, thank you very much. And like I said, for us if it made a lot of sense that it's going to pick up lawyers in different practice groups, right. And so, it didn't, you know, do we really need another corporate lawyer, a real estate lawyer? No, we really don't, you know, we do need a good entertainment lawyer, good immigration lawyer, good health care attorney. And so, from our perspective, once we sort of got the, you know, the basics, you can set transactional, and litigation, it became important to pick up little groups, you know, tax, you know, tax lawyers, estate planning attorneys. And that's really that's really how the growth comes. But if you know if any of those sort of core group and there's six of us approximately, well, no, there is six, you know, if somebody does, if you don't like them, or you had issues with that particular attorney, then you know, we're not even having that conversation. Right. And so, it really is a you know, there's not a lot of administration in our firm I mean, you know, we been at big firms where there's multiple layers of administration we literally have one right and so it's nice when six guys sit down behind the door and go look, we're going to agree on this one way or the other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean listening and like I said, from the perspective of growth, literally, you know, one day is all that needs to happen to Nick somebody and so yeah, we in you know, this David, we spend so much time in the office and so the people around you, you just have to have a certain a friendship and confidence and trust. And if you don't have that people to your left and to your right, that he can make sort of he can make work already, which is like, you know, as we discussed pretty tough. For me makes it even. it aggravates everything, frankly. Well, I've noticed one of the things that I was looking at stuff on your firm is, is yes, while you're sort of this boutique firm, it hasn't limited you to South Florida, I see that you do transactions, Latin America and all of these other countries. So, kind of talk about the evolution of how you continue to grow that aspect of the practice. I think that's really client base. Right. And so, we have clients. The nice thing about the nice, even though I don't know, I think by 2827 28, lawyers, it's a decent size. And you know, our roster of clients, you know, you know, knocking on wood is, is wide and varied and sort of if we have clients that are doing deals, and you know, I'm working on a deal in Chile, in Santiago, Chile, because it's a, it's a Chilean group that that's making an investment, you know, we'll do that. And so, it really, what really gave birth to that was some nice clients, who have very expansive business relationships, and do business all over the United States. And, frankly, in South America, and a little bit in Europe, too. I mean, we had a client, who's based in Belgium was here for a couple of weeks. And we, you know, we did a lot of the stuff that he needed to be done. You know, that like anybody else, nobody's been traveling. But now, but now it's starting to pick up again, and you see more and more of the of the work that national work and international work. That's fantastic. I've always respected you, as a lawyer, a lot of admiration for what you and your firm do. But I want to pivot for a minute and talk about, I think one of the things that has really struck me about you over the years, is you're giving back in in two ways. You're very, very actively involved in the Florida bar, or to Governor's and other organizations throughout that. And you're very involved in the community. And I think I see that sort of throughout your firm. So let's talk a little bit about that. Why is it important for you to be so proactive in the Florida Bar? And sort of help with all lawyers? Well, I mean, I and I'll, I'll promote a couple of both of our high schools' blanches or preferent, Christopher Columbus High School, I mean, they're their schools. And maybe you don't realize it as a younger man. But there are schools that really preach giving back to the community. And, you know, like I said, you know, Berlin and Columbus have been a little rivalry, although it's not really a rivalry in football. Until you beat us, it can't be a rivalry. But right, right, right. Away, obviously, we've got lots of mutual friends. And as much as there's fun jostling back and forth, there is a ton of mutual respect between Columbus and Berlin. That's correct. And like I said, I, I have a lot of Columbus clients, and it's important that we get to give back to the community. And like I said, I, I've always believed that that's something that's really preached by the kind of schools that we've gotten to the religious background. I mean, they, you know, like I said, whether you're paying attention or not, they're really there is incumbent upon their students to give back to the community. And, you know, as I said, you that just becomes part of your DNA. And I really enjoyed it. The I started out with keeping up with bar stuff in the Cuban American Bar Association, where I was president, and that organization really helped me. I mean, I mean, I'll tell you, it helped me grow as a person as a lawyer. You know, you become president of the Cuban American Bar Association in Miami, you know, you gotta raise your game, you know? and so, tiny organization, yeah, no, and, and I found that I really mean, I think I found that I really enjoyed it and gave me an opportunity to, I'm a big fan of lawyers. I mean, your, your, I mean, the name of the show, and, you know, obviously lawyers get a lot of criticism, some of it deserved much of it, not, in my opinion. I mean, I love I love, you know, lawyers, they give back to the community, they contribute to causes. I mean, they make sure things are done, well done correctly. And so, I'm a big fan of lawyers, and they gave me opportunities to interact with more lawyers. And so, after the Cuban American Bar Association, just happened to be an opening in the Board of Governors of the Florida Bar. And I joined the organization and you know, and because I'm an ambitious, you know, um, you know, when I was younger, maybe more ambitious, but, you know, I guess still ambitious. And so I, what I found was, I really, I enjoyed the work. I mean, I thought that you make life a little bit easier for lawyers, you know, that that was attractive to me. And so, the, the Florida and the Board of Governors, I mean, it's just an amazing group of people I 53 people from across the state that are they're typically very well accomplished shores, but also, you know, it's important for them to get back to community it's important for them to try to, like I said, Make lives make the professional lives of lawyers better, you know, wholeness, wholeness, health, health and wellness is a big issue, obviously, for Lori's has been for several years. Now, obviously, the pandemic really aggravated the situation. And so you know, we were trying to make efforts to do what we can and make the daily life of water much easier. And people are just phenomenal. And I deal quite a bit obviously with the staff, the Florida bar staff in Tallahassee, the executive director going to Josh Doyle. And I mean, he's really one of the best people that I've ever met. And just a fantastic guy smart. It's I truly enjoy working with Josh and his team of people. I guess I didn't know that I know anybody better. And so, the whole staff of the Florida Bar is just fantastic. They, they're professional, they're, they're, they're good people. The Florida Bar is actually, you know, is one of this is one of the leading bars in the United States of America, not only not only in size, obviously, but in terms of projects and cutting edge stuff. And, you know, the executive director of the Florida Bar is one of the most, one of the most respected if not the most respected executive director of a bar organization in the United States. So I said it, it's a lot of work. And you know, some people think it's a little bit of a boondoggle, but it's not, I mean, we sort of pay for everything. And so it, you know, it's a, it's not for everybody, because it can be expensive, traveling across the state for the meetings and taking time away from, from your practice and from your families. But, so I, I really enjoyed it, I it's, I've been fortunate to be able to be a part of it. Well, I'm grateful as a lawyer to have people like you, on that board of governors, because we have, we've seen it personally and through other friends. The stress of being a lawyer is hard enough, and now you had the pandemic, which has impacted everybody, obviously, but being isolated, I think you're seeing levels of depression and the whole aspect of, of kind of working together to get through this, as a legal profession and as a community, I think is extraordinarily important. And, you know, and the thing is, you know, lawyers need, you know, no one likes to see their lawyer other than being Superman or Superwoman. Right. And the truth of matter is, we're not I mean, we, you know, that's not something we can maintain 24/7 And so, you know, lawyers in particular have to show you know, strength and courage and passion and, you know, it fill in the blanks, and, and we're obviously still human beings. But you know, we can't we can never show any weakness, we can never show that we're tired that, you know, we're stressed out, etc., as the case may be. And, and the pandemic is only aggravated those situations, because in the middle of this, he said, just bizarre, horrible situation, you know, you David Halford, and you still got to carry the same caseload, you still have to solve all our problems, you still have to respond to all our calls and respond to all your emails and deadlines, etc. And I mean, you're only human David. I mean, there's only so much you can do and yeah, no, no, the pandemic is, is, is really, it's a, it's been a difficult time, I think, for lawyers in many different levels. But I think, frankly, I think 2022 is going to be a great year for all lawyers, and I think we're going to finally get to some level of, you know, whatever normal is going to be, but it but it's, I think it's on the cusp, I'm hoping, by the end of January, this sort of variants gotten, you know, it's gotten past and beyond it, it's, you know, you don't have 50% of the office out of, you know, people out of the office, because they have the new variants. So, but I'm really optimistic that, you know, things are sort of stabilizing a little bit forwards. God, let's hope so, because I think he could have said the same thing last year at the same time. But let's, let's hope we're heading there. You talk about passion quickly. One of the other things I know you're passionate about, and obviously it shows and we cross over on some of these things. But not only the legal community, you're passionate about South Florida and giving back to South Florida. And I think again, I see that echoed throughout your firm of what your partners do and what you do. But, you know, we're on the orange ball committee together. I see you're on the school board, Chamber of Commerce, okay. All of these type things. So why is it important for you to give back to South Florida in a non legal basis? You know, I like you I have children, right. And the more I invest in South Florida, the more the better place that it becomes, the more likely my children stay here. My friends do my family stays here. I mean, I you know, where we're invested in Miami, I'm not going to be going anywhere. I mean, I really and this place is it's a special place. I really do believe that with all my heart. And, you know, I mean, things like the Orange Bowl committee gives me an opportunity. You know, although we're litigator I will No, no, not run into But through the Orange Bowl committee, I get to spend some time with David Heffernan and, you know, catch up, do a little bit get into community showcase South Florida for what a wonderful area is. And I mean, I said, it's, I couldn't think of doing anything else. But that is part of my DNA, you know, just waking up, although, and I can You can attest to that. It's not easy. I mean, I know, it's, you're juggling a lot of balls. I mean, you, I mean, you, you've been on the arms about 20 longer than I have, and you've been a stalwart and that and you know, your, your name carries significant credibility, and with the Orange Book Company, like, so I might, what you did what you still do for the orange book, but I mean, I love it. It's the same thing as the Florida Bar, by the way to David, it gives me you know, give me opportunity to work with people like you, right. I mean, that's, you know, good work can be a grind. But working in the Orange Bowl committee, people meeting people like you, that are as passionate about South Florida want to do some good. And at the same time, you know, have a little bit of fun. I mean, you know, it doesn't get any better than that. Good stuff. Good stuff, for sure. We got a few minutes left, and I want to talk about one last thing that we could do an entire show in multiple shows about, but that I know is a passion of yours passion of your firm's. Also with the Orange Bowl, but diversity. I know, it's extraordinarily important to you, that your firm and your client telling me represent the people of what South Florida looks like what South Florida is, and the legal profession is one that trust me. I mean, I'm an old white guy. So you know, we were, we were the face of it. But to see that change, and again, not just as it goes organically, but being proactive to say, we're going to make sure that we're getting the quality people that represent what South Florida is. So why is diversity so important to you and your firm? Well, let me say this, David Everett, and as part of the solution, okay, part of that part of the problem, and you know, you said you're obviously a white man, but David Heffernan, his party, that's part of the solution. I mean, the way you think, your contributions, I mean, like I said, I wish everyone was, was like David Heffernan, um, you know, I mean, listen to it, you know, people need to be engaged, and it just can't be sort of the same kind of person being engaged. You know, you. The other day, I walked through the Miami Dade County Bar Association, and then the first 30 or 40 pictures were just white man. Right, right. And so from my perspective, it's really unique, because, you know, Miami needs to be among the most diverse places. A lot perspective, a business perspective, every perspective, because we are such a diverse community. And, you know, they let people know that there are opportunities, you know, let's, you know, I was born in Cuba, I mean, so I mean, I I'm so grateful for this country for everything that it's done for me. But it's, you know, it, you know, when someone like me can, can be get on the Board of Governors can you know, maybe one day, you know, ball, things work out, well become president of the Florida Bar, it lets people know that, hey, man, even though there's not, let's say, a natural road for me to get to the top, there is an opportunity if you work hard, if you stay engaged, if you know, if you're if you're authentic, and I always tell people, you know, be who they are. And so I think it's important for people to know, of every of every gender of every race and every ethnicity, that, you know, every opportunity to be the president, the Chairman, on the committee and a board of governors on our school committee, for them to know that, you know, I think it's a great message for that we send to the community, to be involved, to be engaged, you know, and you can do some good in the community, and you can be a leader in the process. And I think that's important. But I think South Florida has really matured and evolved in a wonderful way, in so many different ways. Like, I think you see that on the bench, right? I mean, it used to be many years that, you know, if you had a if you had, if you had a z if you had a z in your surname that you get you get elected, but I like I really believe that the community has evolved that, you know, the best person will when the person gets their message out for it for judicial races, for example. It's not just a Hispanic surname is going to be is going to be the winner of a judicial election. So I think that diversity, like I said, it just helps a community entirely. And it is important, like I said, all the organization that we're involved in, it's extremely important for all those organizations as well, too. Well, I'm ready and I'm flexible because I do a lot of cycling and there's a ride in Orlando called torta Latino and it supports Latino community, businesses and everything else. So the guys that I ride with, many of them are Hispanic and I joked He said with them well, is it going to be okay if I ride in it? They said, Yeah, just register as David Fernandez. So I got an alias I can go by just in case I need it. Yeah, but here's the simple thing you clearly have my vote if and when you run for Florida, president and Florida Bar, I think you do an outstanding job. And I think you've got a vote of all our viewers that we can take you off the kill list. Roland Sanchez Medina, phenomenal lawyer, great firm. But more importantly, better human being guy that cares about South Florida cares about this community. More importantly, I'm glad somebody can call my friend, Roland, thanks for being with us. Thank you, David and the opportunity. I said, I feel honored for this opportunity to be on your show, man. Thank you very much. Well, I appreciate it. We'll see you soon. And that's it for this episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. We'll see you guys next next! #MiamiPersonalInjuryLawyers #InjuryLawyerMiami #MedicalMalpracticeLawyerMiami #MiamiMedicalMalpracticeLawyers

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan and I've been practicing personal injury law here in Miami for nearly three decades. The goal behind this show is simply to bring in other lawyers from South Florida and other areas, in different areas of practices of law, get to know them a little bit, talk to them a little bit, find out about their practice. By the end of the podcast, maybe one by one, we can sort of remove them from the kill list. This one should be relatively easy. My guest this morning is Suzanne Amaducci Adams - good friend, phenomenal lawyer, fellow Orange Bowl member, and board of directors. So, we've got a lot to talk about. This is going to be an easy show because your type of law is something I know very little about. First off, how are you? I'm doing great. Thanks, Dave. Good morning. Good morning. All right. So let's talk about let's go way back for a little bit. What is it that drove you to practice law? Well, I was torn between the business school and law school didn't know what I wanted to do. Actually, originally, I wanted to go into the hotel business. Okay. I was told as a woman at the time, I mean, I'm pretty old. I was told as a woman at the time, there really weren't many opportunities there. And the highest rank that I would achieve would be an executive housekeeper. Now, if you know me, I am not a good housekeeper and that didn't seem like the best path career path for me. So, I ended up going to law school. So how do you wind up at Vanderbilt? Fine school. You know, it was one of those things I was between going to school in Boston, a bunch of friends had gone to Vanderbilt, it was kind of an unknown school. Now. It's the greatest you know, it's probably one of the hardest schools to get into. But it was unknown and I flew down I saw the campus and I decided let's try something new. Let's try the South. I knew nothing about the south at the time. Nashville certainly was not what it was like today. Right? Well, yeah, Nashville has changed quite a bit great, great city. Great City. But let me tell you, it was nothing like that. It was nice, you know, it was a suburban campus yet right next to downtown. Incredible southern influence. And it was a good time I learned a whole bunch about a different part of the country that I didn't know about Then we drive you further south geographically. But as I like to describe Miami, I think Miami is almost a northern city that's just located southern geographically. I was slowly moving my way south to the warm weather. I hated the winters. And I was always a big boater, so I needed to be near the water. Gotcha. All right. So, we get you down here you go to the University of Miami law school. And then your career path seems to take you where you had desires before. You're still sort of in the hotel industry to some degree, but a little different in you're not a housekeeper you're doing $6 billion deals and things like that. So billion, maybe a little bit, you know, was a $6 billion deal. So, let's talk about your practice and how this sort of evolved into what you've done. My passion is really development, and the hotel and Marina business. I worked in hotels as a kid, I love the business. It was great. I'm a big boater. So that's another asset I just happen to know a lot about and the best attorneys are the attorneys that understand their client's business, right so it healthcare doctors, you need to understand insurance, all sorts of stuff with real estate, you got to understand the way the building fits together. But then with these operating businesses like hotels and marinas, you have to understand the business, you have to understand where the money comes from, you have to understand, you know, the expenses, how to mitigate expenses, like I can walk in a marina and I can understand the condition of it, I can understand pretty much the revenue from looking at the type of boats that are there, which boats are there. And all the different businesses that are Marina, you've got fuel, you've got repair facilities, you've got restaurants, you've got bars, it's a big business. So, it's a good mix between business and law. All right. We're going to delve into that a little bit. Now just as a personal question, how in South Florida Do we not have more marinas more waterfront restaurants? I mean, we have such a beautiful venue and there just seems to be a shortage of all of them. You got a Fort Lauderdale seems to be a ton more marinas. You know, you've got restaurants and down here just not many. Well, there are a lot of marinas, okay. The boating activity has exploded exponentially, especially during COVID. So, there's just a shortage. Now as far as the waterfront restaurants are concerned, what's our most expensive real estate waterfront? It's really hard to make a go of it if you're a restaurant operator, and your rent is incredibly high because you're on the water. So there are a few, right? It's a very expensive endeavor. Because my whole path was to start the next restaurant on the water. So what like everyone wants to own a bar? Everyone wants to own a bar. It's a really bad idea. No, I know. And then everyone who doesn't have a boat wants to own a marina because they want all their friends to comment. It's like every other business, it's a difficult business, you really need to know what you're doing. I want to focus on your firm a little bit because you are the partner and the head of the real estate division. I know a lot of lawyers over there. Just a very, I think, unique firm in that. It's a big firm, but you're Miami-based, but you're an international practice. So, you know, it's, we're perfect in my mind. And that's why I'm there. And that's why I've been there for over 20 years. But we're the anti-big firm, firm. Okay, we operate like a big firm, but we don't have solely a Florida footprint with solely of Miami office, people say, you know, how can you survive in this kind of environment where all these big firms are getting together? There are all these law firm mergers? Well, we're different, right? So, we have, I always like to say we're kind of like a boutique hotel, right? So, you go to a boutique hotel, because you want a very high level of service. And a discerning client can go anywhere they want, but they go there because of the high-level service and the high level of expertise. Okay, we have more real estate lawyers and land use lawyers than anyone in town. Period. Right. Okay. And now right now, we also have a litigation department and an international tax and, and whatnot. And corporate of course, but you know, when people are coming to Miami, what do they need? They need, you know, local knowledge, they need an expert. And we all came from large national firms like we all understand that model. We didn't like it. We like local decision-making. So, we operate as if we're a big firm, but we have one office and I do work all over the country. I don't do work. I've done work in Alaska. I've done work in Hawaii. My biggest project right now that I've been working on for like almost 20 years, is in Bridgeport, Connecticut, right? It's a 100-acre development deal in Bridgeport building a Bass Pro, we built a marina an office building a restaurant, Chipotle T mobile's dollar box. I'm getting ready to build a hotel with 2000 multifamily units. I mean, it's like a lifelong project. Right? Although it's in Connecticut, it's not here. Right? That's fantastic. See, now we can take bills and summer golf to kill us. Because you're the anti-lawyers, which well, which is what I always sort of like, and that's why I sort of started this as a joke, you know, to kill all the lawyers and then all the lawyers, of course, well, you know, Shakespeare meant, that is a flutter echo. I get it. But people laughed, you know, I don't care. There are some lawyers that want to kill him, right? I mean, the one thing that's maybe I guess you haven't litigation to, but in real estate, you know, you're constantly negotiating deals, and at the end of the day, I have to make a deal, or I didn't do a good job, right. And at the end of the day, I make it a little bit more of this, and you make it a little bit more of that. But at the end of the deal, end of the day, we need to make a deal. Okay, and you see these people over and over and over again. I deal with the same 10 lawyers in New York all the time, right? Same couple of lawyers in LA the same few in Chicago. It's amazingly a small world. But you know, you got to be nice, you got to be respectful, and you got to be a straight shooter. Well, and to me, you got to set your ego aside, okay. What's the best for my client? Okay, I deal with personal injury, you deal with yours? So at the end of the day, it's not about me, it's not about you, it's what's the best outcome for the client? And I think too many times lawyers kind of lose focus on that because they want to make it about that without a question. And you know, it's not about the fees. Okay, sure. The fees are expensive, okay. That's the way it's going to get done. But I get paid for results. My clients come back to me because I got the deal close, no matter what craziness I had to go through no matter what problem I had to solve. I got the deal done. I got them their result. And for them, that's priceless. Same with you, you get them a good result. It's priceless. Right. So, we've talked about a lot on the show with other litigators and everything else, the effects that COVID had, and that was because the courthouse is basically closed and the change and all of that, but you're in tell hospitality, that had to have a huge COVID had to have a huge impact on that because people stopped traveling. I mean, where is it all going? And are we starting to see it come back and hotels coming back? And so many different answers to that question. So, I closed a hotel loan refinance in Chicago, like March 9, we closed we got a phone call, we said you are closing in 24 hours and we are pulling this loan because we don't know what's happening in the industry. So, we closed we had to do a little credit enhancement, but we closed we got it done. Okay. Three weeks later, that hotel was closed, right? Had you ever asked me I only close two hotels in my entire career. Okay, and that was as a lender after I foreclosed because it just didn't make sense anymore. Right. I've now closed on Your kids in the Caribbean here everywhere. And like you just don't think what do you need when you close a hotel? Like what do you need? You need security, you need air conditioning, you got to get rid of all the food you got, like, you can't just walk away can't just lock the front door and your expenses don't stop, right? Like there's certain expenses that you still have. So, it's very problematic, but your income goes to zero overnight. Zero, positively zero. Right? So, it was a very, very strange time for the industry. The industry you know, struggled for the first 1215 months. The lenders were good. Everyone kind of got together and said, okay, we need to keep the hotels open. We need to keep them flexible. There were very few foreclosures during COVID. Okay, there were these little workouts and relief that was given you know, everyone, let's use the reserves, we have savings, let's work together, use the reserves keep employees employed like and the PPP money helped tremendously, to keep people. So that's what happened. Now. Fast forward to today. South Florida's position beautifully, absolutely, perfectly beautifully, because we're drivable, you know, when people were afraid to fly, and we are drivable. We were a tourist destination, people wanted to come to the beach, everyone had to get out of their house, they just couldn't stand being there anymore. They need a little bit of a break. So, we actually fared quite well in South Florida, because we were a destination. Now, there are still some convention center hotels in the Northeast and the Midwest. They're still closed. They've been closed for almost two years, a huge convention center hotel because there's no business for them right now. Right? Well, Adelphia is one of the markets I was working in. And there were a ton of hotels that were closed, I had all the convention center hotels with different clients, you know, trying to do some sort of relief. Now they were all conventions at our hotels are usually owned by very well-heeled institutional investors. Right. So, I have money, which is good, you know, and they kept the payments coming and everything. But, you know, everyone kind of worked together, as opposed to working apart to keep the hotels going, shall we just say, so, our convention centers, because obviously, you know, all of the events that you see that the convention centers hosts and everything else sort of got shut down? Oh, I mean, all the companies corporations ever say, well, we're not doing a big annual retreat this year. We're not you know, and things have gone virtual. So, are we going to see convention centers come back? Are they going to have to repurpose or they're starting? I mean, again, we're blessed to be in sunny South Florida. Right? We are blessed. So um, so they're coming back. They're slowly starting. I went to my first conference, in Nashville in September, I gave a speech, I guess it was October, um, you know, so they're starting, they're starting to happen, but people are going to pick and choose, they're going to maybe go to one instead of five. I think the attendance is down. ICSC is the big retail conference in Vegas. It was last weekend. And it was much, much, much smaller than it was before. So, I mean, the optimal word right now is pivot. Everybody's got a pivot, right? And how can you know you pivot your business, but I think it's going to come back, it's just going to be slower to come back. I think business travel is starting to come back. But it's much more meaningful, you're going to take one trip and set a time, right, basically be on a plane back and forth to New York all the time. I went to New York for the first-time last month. So, you know, it's just going to be slow. But again, we're just blessed to be in South Florida. Is there going to be a hybrid? I mean, we've seen it in litigation, we've gone to virtual hearings for motion counting are those which I think is a tremendous byproduct of COVID. And I think that will survive because schlepping to the courthouse for a five-minute hearing just doesn't make any sense anymore. When you can efficiently do it. Now obviously, still got to have jury trials. You got to have the buildings there. But are you seeing in in real estate and everything else, more virtual dealings going on, where you're not traveling places where you still need to be face to face? So, you know, real estate had pretty much you know, we never had the New York Stock closings anymore. There's no sit down closings that were kind of like the last generation, right? And that's how I started my career. But our Associates today, they don't know. They don't know what that's like because everything was done electronically. Before anyway, right? But the most effective way to negotiate with someone is to meet them, right? If you really need to negotiate something serious or have a serious conversation with someone, you really need to do it. In person. It's also much more meaningful, you convey to the person that they're very important to you if you're now going to go see them. That's a significant thing. But you know, zoom, okay, you can do some meetings and court five-minute court hearings. I know that that's much more efficient, but for me to sit on a zoom conference, I'm telling you, I'm on my phone, I'm on my computer. I'm doing three things at once, not just two I can't concentrate anymore I need, you know, you need to meet with people. Well, and the difficulty I have found, and I found that, both and taking depositions. And then, you know, I teach in the trial program, which we were doing virtually now, thank God we're back in person, I know you've done some teaching it to you. And I've only got a students, it's a small class, but the problem is, I'm on Zoom, I can't tell if I'm looking in somebody's eyes, because I'm just looking at a camera. They maybe look at the camera, but we're not, we're not making this connection. And, you know, I think you just lose so much. Because again, I don't know what you're looking at, or what's going on, because I can't really engage. My business is a relationship business, you can't build relationships over zoom. You just can't you build a relationship by having a coffee with someone by having a cocktail. By having lunch, you learned so much more about someone. And you know, real estate is truly a relationship business. And as far as teaching is concerned, I thankfully, finished my class at u m, just before COVID it. So, my class was done that semester, and I did teach last spring. But I insisted on doing it in person, like I had to teach in person. I couldn't teach overs. I just couldn't do it. I had four or five students in class, I had some distance learners. So, I was always videoed. And then I also had a screen with my Zoom students. So, I never knew what a camera like, where am I looking? Who am I talking to? Right? And I'll tell you, I know, the students who were sitting in class better than I know, the students who were on Oh, sure. I remember their names. I remember more things about them. No offense to students on Zoom, because they actually did quite well on the exam. But I just didn't make a connection. Right. Well, and I think the same in litigation because we talked about the elimination of motion practice, which is a good thing, except what You don't have is the dialogue back and forth with opposing counsel, okay, you know, a deposition ends, you know, and we're somewhere the opposing counsel, I'm getting a drink, I'm flying back with them or whatnot. I'm not just hitting the button. And then it's all over. And it's that dialogue that kind of continues to move things, even though it may not be a dialogue necessarily about what's the core issue. But it's just it. You're right, it's relationship building. It's really, and I always joke that the litigators, all they want to do is fight and all I want to do is build things right. That's always my tongue in cheek joke, okay. But look, you will cut a better deal for your client, if you know the opposing counsel, like you'll know whether they're a jerk, or you'll know whether they're a straight shooter, you'll know something about them, right. But you will have much more insight into how to cut a deal, because at the end of the day, we all want to cut a deal. I mean, there's not that many try going to trial is extraordinarily expensive, extraordinary. And, you know, I truly try and avoid it all go if I have to with my clients, but like, look, kind of business deal, right? And you can do that so much better. If you know that person, you know, how they think you know, what motivates them, you know, what their client motivates them. I always ask people like, what's your goal? Like, what is truly your goal? I'll ask the other side, I'll ask my side. But if I know what your goal is, I know what my goal is. Or you're saying, notice something I'm asking for? I see what, why No, because if you tell me why maybe I can figure out another path, right? 100%. So, if you don't know those people, you can't have that conversation. It's which is why you know, and it's funny because they've experimented with things in litigation of doing, you know, sort of this virtual mediation with AI information and plugging in, and it just doesn't work. There's a human element to it. That I think is critical in litigation in any negotiation at any point in any deal. You can't just plug in numbers, right? I mean, there's not an algorithm to fix. The other thing, too, is what I call the tough guy. Right? Everyone can be a tough guy on the phone, and everyone can be a tough guy in email. But you know, they can't be a tough guy in person. I mean, when I wear my heels, I'm six foot one. Okay, I'm taller than most of the men in Miami. Not you, Dave, thank you. And I'm saying you can't be abusive, especially to a woman to her face. I mean, it's much more, trust me there are. I was going to say, I know. There are a few I won't, but I know plenty of people that will but the majority? Well, right, you know, and it's just a different dynamic. Alright. You bring up obviously, the female component to it when you started in the practice of law. And it's probably still somewhat male-dominated, but clearly, you were going into male-dominated business. Okay. And one of the nice things about Bill's, and is, I think, again, I think they're in the forefront of inclusion and diversity and everything else and you just look at, look at who works there. And you see what the emphasis is, but what have you seen change? As you know, as a young female lawyer now to the practice, it's still probably male-dominated to some degree. So yes, it is male dominant, there are more women today. Um, you know, I truly view the world as gender-neutral, right? and my business is gender-neutral. I am almost always the only woman in the room, almost always. And I'm just used to it, right? It doesn't bother me. Right. But I'll tell you my first closing, I was practicing in Orlando. And you know, I work I, you know, I over-prepared, I checked all the documents, 100 times and all this stuff. So, I walk into the closing room, I'm in there by myself and I have opposing counsel, and I've got the developer I was making alone. And I've got the developer there. And the developer says, Darlin, can you make a few photocopies for me? And I sat there, I took a deep breath, I wasn't sure what to say, because it caught me off guard really honest with you, right? And I said, Sure. Because remember, the borrower pays the lenders, attorneys fees, right? So I said, Sure. I mean, at $225 an hour, if that's what you want me to be doing, I'll be happy for you. And the guy looked at me funny, and his attorney, that's the attorney, it whispered in his ear. So you know, you start that way. And you just learn to handle it. Right? You kind of take it in stride. Alright. One of the other things that builds in Sundberg focuses on even though they're international, is a big focus on Miami and South Florida. And I think they take great pride. And I've seen some of the stuff reference, you know, the new Miami so. So what do you see as Where's Miami going? What Miami has come a long way. And we were looking at a picture and you and I started, there are a few buildings that are missing. Miami has come a long way. And it really is there's really no limit to where it can go with the diversity of people who are moving here, the diversity of companies, the arts, the culture, I mean, Miami is going to explode if we're not already exploiting Miami, but it's South Florida, right? It's completely South Florida. I sit on the Miami Downtown Development Authority Board. And we focus on is bringing business into South Florida and into the DDA district. And it's amazing how much business has come in and how many new companies and whatnot Miami is just on fire. I think we're unlimited as to where it can go. But as a firm, you know, we are Miami, right? Okay, this is we're born and bred here. As a firm and you know, you have to invest in your community, you have to give back. And we have board positions on basically, every charity, every organization, we require all that we don't have to really twist many arms, we require all of our partners and associates to be involved in the community. They get to pick where, right whether it's kids, it's sports, it's charitable, it's the arts, they pick where but they have to be invested in the community. Well, look, it's critical. You and I have gotten to know each other through the Orange Bowl committee. Again, big commitment to South Florida. Citing time of year for us the great time we got we clearly got the best game and match-up. So it's, it's going to be fun over the next few weeks as it gets kind of crazy on our end. But then you look at the things we're able to do for the community through the Orange Bowl committee and the legacy gifts and the giving back. And, and that really is a critical thing. I mean, if this is what you call home, then you've got to invest in without a question. And, you know, it's again, it goes back to relationships, like Dave, you can pick up your phone, and you can call a whole host of people, you can open a door, you can get to the right person through your involvement in the community, right, they're not necessarily going to give you something but they're going to open a door for you. So, you can get to the right person. And that's what we find now, where, you know, our firm is just priceless. Right? Because all the people coming into Miami, they need help. They're from New York, Chicago, we just have a lot of international people who really needed help, but the domestic people, you know, they need help, too. And they need someone who can pick up the phone and call the mayor's office or pick up the phone and call that surveyor who didn't get a survey Donner or whatever it is the ability to pick up the phone, call the right person, have them take your phone call, it's priceless. 100% doesn't matter what you charge per hour for that. So, we're seeing well, let me ask you, are we seeing a shift now? Post COVID? Because people can do things virtually. I know the mayor made a big push to bring tech down here and everything else. Are we seeing that start to shift in Miami? Oh, absolutely. And it's not just COVID prove that we could do. Right. Okay. But it's not just because you can work remotely. I mean, the tax structure of some of these other states of California and New York. I mean, it just doesn't make sense to live there anymore. Right? And if you can live here where it's beautiful. So many months out of the year, people have summer homes any way they leave you know like these people were travelers anyway. Right. But if they could be based here enjoy our outdoor life, right? That's what we have. We have our life in the winter. And if they can enjoy that and work and have a huge tax advantage, it's a win-win. You've been doing this a long time. We won't say how many years. But you're still very passionate about it. What is it that keeps you passionate about what you're doing? A couple different things. So, um, you know, I learned something new every day. I learned something that I take with it, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, I definitely learned something. But I'm to the point in my career now where I can kind of pick and choose my clients. Right. And I love my clients. I mean, my clients are great people. I know them. They're personal friends. And it's fun. Like, for instance, I'm doing a deal a series of deals actually, with the mother of one of the daughters in my daughter's class. They've been going to school together since they were two and a half. Okay, my mother and I met at preschool. Really, we met at preschool. I knew who she was, she knew who I was, but we had never met before. And we became fast friends, and we're developing all a pilot together. That's fantastic. providing some affordable housing doing a whole bunch of different things. Right. So it's just it's much more fun when you're doing it with your friends. So what are your favorite projects to work on? Is there whether it be a Marina Hotel, a whole thing like you're working in Connecticut, where it's everything? What's, what's the one that's the most fun? The most fun is good? I like a good puzzle, right? So, I like a good challenge. You know, the cookie-cutter deals, you know, fine, I can do them no problem. And I do them. And you know, I pay the bills. I still make photocopies if I have to, I'll personally deliver a package like I don't care what I do, right? You got to get the deal done. Right. And some of the younger people don't quite understand that. But that's a topic for a whole other show. I just I love I love a good puzzle. And I like working with a good client. And if I really had my druthers, I like to build things. I really like to build things. Fantastic. Well, should be very easy to take off the kill list. Suzanne Amaducci Adams, the partner and head of the real estate. Been a pleasure. We can have these conversations. We'll have many more of these conversations. I'll see you tonight at the orange ball function. We're going to kick off this year's game hosting the semifinal not that we need to tell that, but Michigan and Georgia and I know we don't have to tell it because I've gotten more requests than I've ever had. I haven't. I haven't. Exactly. Well, you can kill her for not having tickets. But for the lawyer aspect. an anti-lawyer who I really love, you can take her off the list. That's another episode. We'll see you next week.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan. I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for about three decades now. The goal behind these podcasts is quite simple. I bring in lawyers from various aspects, different careers, different things, talk about different areas of law and sort of one by one hopefully, we can take them off the kill list and prove that maybe Shakespeare was wrong back in the 15th century. This morning it will be an easy task. My guest is a friend, colleague, an excellent lawyer, and I dressed up this morning actually put a jacket on because in some aspect now as you're going to find out, she's my boss. So let me introduce Jeannie Jontiff. A pleasure to have you on this morning. How are you? I'm great. Thanks, David. Good morning. Nice to see you. Likewise, likewise. So let's start with the simple stuff. Let's go back a little bit. You went to U. M law, and we've got some parallel paths there. But before you get there, what got you into the practice of law? Ah, a very circuitous route. I started out as a musical theater major, I kind of switched into political science, but with still a dance, a minor in dance. And then I don't know, I kind of started working in the law. I worked in real estate, and I did contracts. And then I thought that was interesting. And then I, I ended up actually taking a position at Kodak Trofim, Throckmorton as a paralegal, and then I kind of said, well, I can do this. I may as well just go to law school. Well, that there's certainly a great group of lawyers there to learn under and we know them all, well, tremendous, tremendous firm. So. So that's where the start goes, then you go to UNM. And then you and I have one common Lincoln that just a couple of years before you I won the Thomas Seewald Scholar Award, ah, which is, which is a nice little gesture, I still have the trophy somewhere the Montblanc pen, which was a nice award. And then obviously, we both had the opportunity to teach in the litigation Skills Program. And now we sort of segue. You've got a thriving practice, you and your husband have been doing personal injury law Jonathan. But this year, you shifted gears a little bit. And you're now the acting director for the litigation skills department. So let's talk about how that came about. You know, I've been intimately involved in litigation skills since I took the program. My favorite thing about law school was litigation. Always super passionate about it. And you know, with all that was going on with the pandemic, I kind of, you know, helped out a lot more than I ordinarily do.You know, so they were looking for someone to kind of step in at least interim while we have our interim dean. So they brought me in to help out for the next couple of years. Let's talk about the litigation skills program. Because, like you, that was clearly the most enjoyable thing I did in law school, clearly the most practical thing I did in law school. In that, it, all of these things started to make sense to some degree, you know, you learned rules, and you learned this, and you learn that but was in a vacuum. And then all of a sudden, you went, Oh, wait, that's how this works. So talk a little bit about the litigation skills program and what that takes students through. So at the heart of it, I mean, you know, the lit Skills Program is an advocacy program. So we've tried to teach students how to how to really figure out how to put all the pieces of the puzzle together, kind of like, as you said, and they learn in kind of three different forums. So the main litigation skills class, and there's a lot more to litigation skills than just the main class, but for purposes of our time here, so we have a lecture component, and then we have a pre-trial and a trial class. So a trial class, they're learning the skills that every trial lawyer needs, you know, how to do an opening, how to do a direct examination, how to do a cross-examination, you know, how to enter evidence, and to know how to put documents and things into evidence. And then, and then in their pre-trial class, they're learning like the nuts and bolts of how to take a case from beginning to end. And they work a case file the entire semester, in pre-trial while they're doing these exercises in their trial class. And the culmination is and you've done this a bunch of times yourself, is we go down, together, and we have final trials at the courthouse. And so that's a really exciting part of you know, the program is to have these final trials where we have real juries come in, that we bring in and they try a case which you know, who gets to try a Christ with no downside. What and it's funny because that's what I tell all the students, you know when they get up, do Their final trial and it is I mean, that exercise, and so much credit, I mean, goes to Lonnie, and then Lydia who runs that program. So, so well, but what they do to bring in, and we've seen it evolve over the years, you know, we'd have two or three jurors, and then we, you know, now you've got eight 910 Jurors sometimes that show up, and to be able to get into a courtroom, oftentimes with a real judge presiding, because we've cut many of them that are part, you know, of the faculty, and put on witnesses. And then, and this is where I learned each time, they get to listen to the jury deliberate, which we don't get to do in the real world, you know, you get to hear them talk in the feedback. And I just think it's a tremendous, tremendous exercise for them. But yeah, I always commend them. And I go, look, it's good news is no risk of being sued for malpractice at the end of this trial. Right? Yeah. And I mean, that's the extraordinary thing about it, as they actually get to hear what the jurors have to say, and get some fruitful, you know, feedback, which, you know, in the real world, you never, you never know what they do behind closed doors, which is also really interesting to see, you know, the things that jurors see on that, you know, when we're putting on a case, like there are very often little things that jurors pick up, when you see this in these deliberations that didn't even occur to you or wasn't even something you were trying to impart, you know, like, it wasn't something you were necessarily arguing. It's just something they pick up on. And they're like, Well, what about this, and you're like, we didn't even talk about that. But so that's kind of an interesting part, I have to say, you mentioned Lydia Sanchez, and I have to say, the lid Skills Program wouldn't be with what it is right now, especially without, without Lydia Sanchez, our Senior Program Manager, and we also have our paint, paint Penya. And not daily noon, noon, yes, we have a great team. And that's really we all work together as a team. And it's really an extraordinary program, and it wouldn't be able to be done so seamlessly without you know, our team, no question they are, they are the continuity that sort of drives that train and keeps it on the tracks and the standing job of, of hurting the adjunct faculty. And to me, that's one of the things I think that's appealing as, as a teacher, one, the interactions that we get with the other faculty members, but as students, when you look at it, just talk a little bit about the faculty. I mean, there are federal judges, there are state court judges, there are prosecutors, there are high profile lawyers. I mean, it's, you know, it's one of those, I look around and go, How do I get into this little club? Because it's a pretty special club. It's funny, because my husband, former partner used to say, you know, how do you get to be part of the lit skills club? So yeah, it really is. It's a, it's a who's who of Miami and really the whole pogrom program, you know, centers around our adjunct faculty, obviously, they teach the pretrial classes, the trial classes, there anybody in everybody you could possibly imagine this, who's who in Miami, but more importantly, you know, these students get to interact with, you know, federal judges, federal magistrate judges, state court judges, appellate court judges, you know, local attorneys, former US attorneys, you know, just an amazing faculty that, you know, provide guidance, you know, information, potential, you know, career, you know, opportunities, and, and mentorship, which is really great, because they constantly, you know, have this interaction with these folks. And in very many times, and I don't know about you, but myself, I have had ongoing relationships with some of my students, I'm still friends with my adjunct faculty members from a million years ago. So it's really, you know, an amazing opportunity for a young and upcoming lawyers. Well as, as am I, and it is funny, I mean, David Diehl taught me pre-trial, Judge Hawk was one of my trial teachers, you know, and he still teaches in the program. And so to see that and, and it was funny, it was nice to judge Huck was teaching some other programs called me want to know if I had some certain materials on things and everything else. And, and so yeah, the connections you make on that, and again, students, although and I stole this from somebody else, I won't take credit for it. But what I tell my students last class of the year is I said, Look, you know, you're going to go out now and you're going to become practicing lawyers. And, you know, there's a chance we may see each other and if we cross paths, always remember this. I taught you everything, you know, but I didn't teach you everything I know. Okay. You know, I worry about that when you see them out there, because you're like, well, they're a lot smarter, and I was at the time. And so it is a lot of fun. And it's a great program. And I think you've seen it and I'm sure now as acting director, you get it. The feedback in the community of looking to hire law students who in fact took litigation skills and took that trial program because it gives them that extra special skill set. Oh, sure. They're ready to hit the road. running, I mean, how many, you know, students do you get in that are, you know, first-year associates that have actually kind of tried a case, you know, and that's a really extraordinary, but the one thing that I that it's funny because most everybody focuses on what skills just for the trial aspects and the litigation aspects, but really, there are so many students that take lit skills just because of the oral at the casino component. You know, at some point in your legal career, whether you're a litigator or not, you're going to, you're going to need to advocate for a position. And, you know, we teach students how to do that how to issue spot how to find a position, and advocate for it. And so you could use that as a transactional lawyer, as an on a board of director any, you know, think of all the things you've done in your legal career that doesn't involve, you know, necessarily litigation, and how you use those skills, you know, as well that you learned as a litigator in that in that capacity. So that's the other thing. That, you know, is really, really important, because, you know, we, we have a lot of students that come up that don't necessarily want to be litigators, and then end up, you know, learning all these advocacy skills that they can lose down the line. We also actually one of our faculty members, former political students said, you know, lift skills, changed her career path. I mean, she started lit skills, not knowing, you know, what she wanted to do, and ultimately, led skills was what, you know, made her believe that she wanted to be a litigator, and then she went on to be a judge. So, but, you know, it really determined her career path. So it's really an important program because it just opens up so many doors and opens your eyes to so many things, as it really does. And I've had students that it's fun to watch, because as the semester goes on, you see them sort of find their voice, you know, they didn't have the competence, they didn't think they could do those things. And all of a sudden, they started and they're like, oh, wait a minute, you know, I can do this, and I enjoy it. So one of the other I think key components. And again, it's something we don't get to see and we don't use in the real world is they videotape these sessions. And they have, they have non, you know, legal, they have theatrical people and everything else critique some of the students and again, just on the presentation, how they stand, what they do with their hands, you know, all of these things, that unless you actually see yourself on videotape, people can tell you things. But once you see it, you kind of go, oh, and so talk about that component of the learning process of being able to videotape these things, and then get reviewed with someone watching the videotape with you. Right, so we have a video review of all their trial sessions. And they're done by Jen Burke, who is the head of the theater department at the University of Miami, and also by one of our adjunct faculty members. So they get and then swap weeks. And you know, Jen covers the things, the theatrical things, how do you stand? What's your tone? Is? Do you have inflection in your voice? You know, are you speaking in a monotone way? On You know, do you use? Okay, yes, oh, you know, like little tics that we can tweak, and learn to teach students to maybe take a pause, to take a breath to not have to struggle for every word, and then filler with things that make no sense. So we do that. And then also you have the adjunct faculty that goes with them, you know, goes through the videos with them and says, Well, you know, you could ask this a little bit better. Or you could do this way, or have you ever thought about maybe this is an issue in your case. So it's really an opportunity to review. I mean, they get reviewed when they do in class,, they get a review, they get a critique right after they perform, but to see it later, and to be able to play it back, I think brings a whole different aspect to it. Because when you're getting you to know when you do something, and right afterward, you talk about it, that's one thing, but to see yourself on videotape, and then have someone say, you see when you did this here, you know, and so that really, you know, it's a game-changer. Yeah, it's a tremendous tool. And, you know, as you work with students, and I work with students, that's one of the things that's critical is, is for them to find their own style, because you can look at great lawyers and great trial lawyers, and you can take bits and pieces, but it's really not a skill, because to me, the genuineness of the trial lawyers is what has to be first and foremost, that jury has to believe that this lawyer believes in what they're talking about. And if you're mimicking, it's hard to be that genuine. So, you know, taking these students and crafting them to say, you know, don't do it, just like that was how would it work within your skillset? I think it's a tremendous asset. Well, it's what you said they find their voice, so you can't be someone else. I can watch someone do a direct or cross and go, Wow, that was fantastic. Does that fit into my wheelhouse? I don't know, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Because there are certain things that I can do that other people can't. And there are certain things that other people can do that I can't, you know, so you have to really be true to yourself and let your own personality come through. So that's, you know, that's really important finding your own voice figuring out what you do because what somebody else does, may not, it might actually be awkward. Like, you can't try to, you know, I can't try to mimic David Heffernan because I'm not, right. So and it's a big difference. You know, a lot of this has to do with how you present yourself, some of it has to do with, you know, your physicality, you know, if you're, you know, a big person with a booming voice or a small person that may need to up your, your tone a little bit more, but it just, you have to figure out what works for you. And that's what I think we're really, really good at doing. Because, you know, between all of our adjuncts and the theatre department, we really work on these students to try and let them find their own voice, like you said, which is, you know, huge. And it's, and it is critical. I mean, you get into some of our state courtrooms, although I know, we're building new ones, you know, and they're kind of tight. So for a guy, my sides, I've got to be very conscious of, you know, not getting on top of the jury, or even not getting too much on a witness, I don't want the perception that I'm beating up on the witness. So, you know, I might tone across your examination a little differently with that witness, whereas you being slightly smaller than I am, yeah, oh, come on. Yeah, just a tad, might be able to be a little more aggressive, and kind of in your face it all of those things. And again, until you see them until you're told about them until you have veteran judges and lawyers saying, Look, you know, try this, and then they start to see their things. I mean, it's just, it's a tremendous, tremendous program. Right? It really is. And you know, that the problems that we take them through are hugely important and doing that, because also it depends on who your witnesses, right, I'm constantly, I'm constantly telling the students like the one answer, that's absolutely 100% true all the time. And litigation is, it depends. There are so many factors, right, you have a case, you could have the same set of facts, and have two different witnesses two different people play the witness or be the witness to different types of personas, right, and you would have to do, do what you do a little differently for each one, or maybe completely differently, depending on who your witnesses, right, if you have someone who's, you know, shy or, you know, if you're too booming and too up in their face like you said, then obviously, you come across as way too aggressive. But if the witness is super aggressive, then you know, you know, and you're shy, and, you know, demure, that's not going to work either. So that's part of what they learn to because they do these practice skills with, you know, various different witnesses. So that's a huge factor, you know, learning how to, to make those changes, and sometimes on the fly, because, you know, when you're in court, you just don't know all the time, sometimes, you know, rarely, but sometimes a witness comes in that you've never had the opportunity to meet. So, you know, you got to figure out how you're going to approach that witness right then and there, you don't have the opportunity to like have, you know, a steadfast gameplan, you know, so you talked about being able to get back into the courtroom for the final trials this semester. I want to go back and sing the praises of Lydia a little more. And much like I think our court system did, but we had to go virtual. And that changed the dynamic of everything, but talk a little bit because, you know, it was a learning curve for us as adjunct faculty. But it was a learning curve for them. And, you know, you started to teach now, how to be an advocate. When you're on a zoom call, you know, I mean, my students is like, hold on, you got to pretend you're in court, you know, take off the polo shirt, put on a tie, you know, make your lighting, right. So talk about the difference now to start creating virtual advocates, which some component of that is still gonna be around no matter what. Right? So, you know, we've been toying with how do we deal with that, because there's always going to be some virtual components. So, you know, we did have a virtual section this semester, next semester, we're completely alive. But what we are doing is, for instance, you know, for our trials, they the students do a pre-trial conference as you would in the real world, you know, you go to try a case you meet with the judge before you go to trial. You have a pre-trial conference. So our pre-trial conferences are virtual, and they're going to remain that way. Because in the real world, that's what would happen. You would have a pre-trial conference, you would go in you would meet with the judge. They do need you to know, you do need to know how to do that. Motion calendar for lawyers is is mostly, if not 100%, virtual right now, you need to know how to screen share, you need to know the technology, it's very important, you need to know how to do your lighting, which I did a terrible job this morning. Well, we grab your last minute that I usually do that blocks the stuff that makes me look like a ghost, but that's okay. But again, you've got to learn how to do stuff on the fly, right? So that's kind of an important thing for them to do. And virtual is going to be around for a long time. So it's something that we are incorporating? Well, it was, it was funny because you and I had the opportunity in judging a final trial a semester or two ago, I mean, time just is now sort of obscured but where we watched that young girl, young woman do a closing with the screen behind her in the PowerPoint was now her background. And you know, her face and she moved around it. This girl we talked to her afterward, was terrified of public speaking and everything else. And it was one of the best closings I've ever seen. And I stole a bunch of the technology, because I'm like, that's fascinating, like, the way she put that together. But in talking to her afterward, I don't think she would have done the same had she been living in a courtroom, because she was much more comfortable with sort of that being in front of a camera and doing that and not otherwise. So it's a fascinating dichotomy between the balance between these things. Well, you know, a lot of our students, you know, are young and into the tech stuff, and used to being on camera, which I think our generation a little bit different. We didn't have all the techie we didn't have selfies and you know, all that stuff, Polaroid cameras, come on, you could get a picture within like, 60 seconds. Right? But so that's a whole new dynamic. And so they really can step up to the game, you know. So that's, that's really important that you learn how to do that. The one thing I always caution is, if you're gonna use technology, make sure it works. Because there is nothing worse than being in court and, you know, trying to use technology and failing miserably. I, fortunately, have not had that experience, because I bring someone to help me. So it's like, I'm in court, it's got to be like, no snafu is somebody else's got to be sitting there pushing the buttons while you're, you know, on your feet thinking and doing your thing, but not everybody has that luxury. So but you do need to make sure it works, right. So practicing is, you know, an integral part. Well as, as do I cuz I'm like you I know a lot of words, oh, I got I want to push a button. I'm like, No, I want somebody there that can push the button and figure it out to make me look good. But even then, and that's one of I guess, you know, you learn through trials and tribulations, but the trial practice, you still better have belt suspenders and a few other things. Because I had a guy there with technology I had an expert on and we couldn't get the graphic up. Now I had backups of just, you know, small little grep. But at least I had something I could show him and show the jury, you know, and I, I got complimented by the judge afterward of she said, Well, you handled that really seamless, and I go well, not inside. I didn't okay, you know, but you've got to have that backup and be ready for just about anything. And again, one of the things that these students can learn is, it's also appearance sometimes, you know, I learned that as a young lawyer watching a guy was working for go sidebar came away smiling and whatnot. We went to break and I asked him, I said, Oh, that went well. He goes, I don't It was horrible. The judge ruled against him everything else. I go, well, it looked great. He goes, I know. And that's what I wanted to think that it all looked great. So again, more skill sets that are taught and litigation skills, right. Never let them see you sweat. That's right. Never a lot of sweets, you get a bad ruling. You just keep that you know, that poker face. And it's really important. It's important to learn that you know, and so you watch, not only students but when you watch real trials when you watch an attorney react to something going on in the courtroom in an unfavorable way the jury picks up on every single solitary thing they're watching to see like what's going on. So if you have a poker face, you know, sometimes things will happen that you think are horrific. And you just sit there and the jury never picks up on it because you didn't chew them in on something that you thought was bad a witness says something that you think is horrible, and they don't really pick up on it because you don't react but if you react they're for sure gonna know Oh, that was something really bad. They don't know what it is. They'll be like Oh, did you see your face? Yeah, now Now let's put some focus on it. You know it's almost it's that huge hesitation asking a judge you know to strike something that was said because then the judges frame it up again. Well, the witness said X does regard X, you know, you're like, Okay, well, that didn't work very well. Yeah. Now they really highlighted the fact that you didn't want that to come in. Right? Right. Can't unring the bell. So let's talk about this. You're obviously passionate about the practice of law, but you've always been and that's why I was thrilled to see you get appointed as the acting director, while all the law school goes through several machinations at this point, but But what is it that makes you passionate about teaching? You know, watching students grow and learn and seeing them develop, and then meeting them years later, and having someone come back to you and say, wow, you know, you really helped me, you know, you really it was, it was, you know, made a huge impression on me. I mean, I think that's invaluable. And I never really knew that it was something the teaching was something that I loved until, you know, I came to teach pre-trial, I taught pre-trial and trial, and let's go. So when I first started teaching pre-trial, I was like, wow, this is really great. I like that you get to connect with young students and kind of, you know, keep that youthfulness. And I have to say, you always learn something, as as much as you teach, you know, you think you're teaching a lot of times you're learning as well. So you know, the whole package is just really something that's extraordinary. 100 100%. And I mean, to me, I take lessons away all the time from that, in watching and watching the jurors and watching the interactions and getting what works, what doesn't so. So where now, while you're at the rains here for a little bit, so where is let's Gil's going I mean, what's the next evolution? I guess? Maybe the combination of virtual and technological and how does that grow? Yeah, so we're doing, you know, the virtual thing, limited now because now we're back in person, and we really want to teach those advocacy skills in person, but as I said, we are keeping virtual components of it. You know, we're also trying to, like, do a little more, you know, get some of our adjuncts involved in the program in different ways. So maybe doing like short, like lunchtime seminars on topics that we can also let young lawyers who out first, you know, like young associates, as you know, who need CLE credits or something. So we're investigating, doing things like that, to have like some seminars that are sponsored by the Skills Program, and maybe a local law firm. So we're looking to doing things like that, but let's go so it's more than just the main program because we also have a lit skills to the class. And we also do an externship program, where our students can become certified legal interns and practice in various, you know, and go literally work in various areas in the in, you know, in the county or even outside the county if it's during the summer. And so they become certified legal interns, they can work at the, you know, the State Attorney's Office, the public defender's office, you know, I think we have one students working at the Attorney General's Office. So they do, they go out and they literally work in the community. And, and in various aspects, they can actually speak in court, like, you know, whether with a supervisor, so it's an extraordinary experience for students. So that's one of the things that we do. Yeah, I think the externship program is a tremendous benefit that those who can partake in it. Because again, what we're seeing now is it's just extraordinarily difficult for a young lawyer to get in front of a judge to get court practice to conduct a trial. It just, doesn't happen. So we're going through those externship programs. And if you've got the ability to be able to go to the state attorney or the public defender and get in the courtroom, there's nothing better for a young litigators. Yeah, and, you know, listen is saying that, you know, that cases, not as many cases are going to trial, as, you know, as used to go to trial. So learning how to, you know, or a, you know, for civil litigators, we have a huge motion practice. So, they learn that skill, too. So that's hugely important. But yeah, cases aren't going to trial as much. So getting trial experience is huge. No question. No question. And then And then, of course, the best benefit of being an adjunct faculty member is the holiday parties, which isn't your house this year. So I, I can't wait to see you in a few weeks at that and see everybody else. Genie. It's, it's been an absolute pleasure. Clearly, this is one I don't think we've got to convince anybody to take you off the kill list. passionate, passionate, lawyer, passionate teacher, I think you're done a tremendous job in the litigation skills department. And obviously, it's something that's near and dear to my heart. So love to see it in your capable hands. Really appreciate you joining us this morning. Thank you, David. Thank you for having me. Of course. Alright Jeannie director for the litigation skills department at the University of Miami. I'm David Heffernan and we'll be back next week with another episode of First off let's kill all the lawyers.

First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan, I've been practicing personal injury law here in Miami and South Florida for nearly three decades. The goal behind this broadcast is to bring in other lawyers in varying fields and experiences to kind of maybe one by one start to take them off that kill list. And, and we can prove Shakespeare wasn't right in the 15th century, when he said it and everybody laughed about it. But my guest this morning, the only difficulty might be I think we can get him off the list. But he's a guy I know who oftentimes wanted to kill many lawyers, generally opposing counsel, but this morning, I'm really happy to introduce a very close friend of mine. Excellent, excellent lawyer. Andy Haffa. Thanks for having me on. So yeah, we're not going to ask you to take any lawyers off the list. Because I know, given you're passionate about your practice, and I will get into that. There's been times I've might have heard you out or a few things about killing other lawyers. So, we're going to try to table that and keep this more on the civil side of things. You and I've had many conversations about going back to trial by combat and how much better I would feel. And as badly as I would like to avoid being on anybody's hit list. I unfortunately, I found my way too many. And so as hard as you're going to work today, I don't know how successful you're going to be brother. All right. Well, I'm up for the test. So, let's see what we can do to get Andy off this list. Let's go back first and just talk about so you're a Miami native, correct? Well, basically, I we I've been here ever since I'm two I was born. My dad was in medical school in Richmond. And he when he moved down here for training, that's when I became a Florida native. Got it. Okay. So now though, tell me because your dad comes down here, very, very prominent surgeon knows me. Well, he's seen my insides. So, I got to give him credit for that as he took my appendix out, but Chief of Staff at Baptist I mean, many, many accolades, and just a top notch, top notch surgeon, great guy, and you go to law school. So where was where was that shift? And was there ever an interest in medical school? There still is. I was I was teaching at the middle school Medical School last night, believe it or not, okay. I ended up going to law school because my dad, who as you said, as a surgeon told me, he wouldn't do it again. And I took the L SATs and the MCAT. That's the test to get into medical school within a month of each other. And still, to this day, I entertained dreams of being a doctor. That's what I was always wanted to do. And I know I would have been a hell of a surgeon, that's for sure. No, no doubt about it. And but it's interesting because you go into law, and then followed by both of your brothers, Sam and Greg go into law who both have thriving careers. And we might have to get them on here. It might be easier to get off the list and you but we'll work on it. On those two so you get into the practice law. The other interesting thing about you so you and I go back three decades, because graduate, I always know how long you've been practicing. Because I got to figure out how long I have came out together, law clerk to different places together. But you're a little bit of a rarity in that. You went to a firm right out of law school. Grossman, a Roth at the time now Grossman Roth, yeah, often Cohen. But you've stayed there, the duration, you know, lawyers tend to start here, get a little experience here, kind of move and move around. So talk about that journey, because I think it's pretty fascinating that you've stayed there the whole time. And obviously, tremendous, tremendous firm. You know, nothing but great things to say about Stuart and Neil and everybody in that firm. And so you're a great, great fit and a great asset to that firm. But how is it that you wound up staying in the same place for 30 years? So I was blessed to have found Stuart and Neal, and they took a shot on me how and why I don't know. But my goal when I started with them was to learn how the best firm I could find thought so I could go back and defend physicians. I lived through a couple of lawsuits that I felt were unjustified. And so I figured if I could learn from the best plaintiffs firms, I could then jump back to the defense and defend these dogs. And when I saw the cases that Stuart Neal had, it was mind blowing. And I would bring this stuff home and talk to my dad. And he was shocked at the horrific care that existed then and unfortunately continues to exist in South Florida. And so I found my niche and I think we're able to make Florida a better place by hopefully forcing physicians to practice better and safer medicine. And so that's really sort of overshadowed my entire journey at Grossman Roth, and I feel as though I've, you know, sacrificed blood, sweat and tears there for 30 years. And when I started, we were for lawyers, we're now up to 12. And it's amazing the cases we've seen, the people we've touched and the lives that we hopefully have changed for the better. Well, let's talk about that a little bit too, because I know and it had to be difficult for you, given that your dad was a physician and a prominent physician, there seems to be sort of, sometimes almost a public image that, well, they're doctors, and they can't make mistakes. And I talk to people all the time. And I say, well, listen, they're professionals. Lawyers are professionals, contractors are professionals. You know, if you if you hire a guy to build your house, and half of it collapses, nobody ever has a hesitation, oh, I'm going to sue that guy. He did it wrong. But when doctors do that, everybody seems a little hesitant to venture into that. And so how was that sort of going back and forth with your dad. And obviously, I mean, I've fished with you many times with your dad and lots of other physician friends. And those were the circle friends. So how well was that sort of taken when you first started suing doctors as opposed to defending. So I think I brought a bit of fresh air to these physicians that felt that way, because they knew, given my background, given my history, given my father, that I was not going to simply throw a cast net, no pun intended, over everybody that had contact with that patient. If you're going to get sued, it's because you deserve to get sued. And it was a breach of the standard of care. And they knew that I understood that not every mistake was medical malpractice that was actionable. Not every bad outcome was medical malpractice that was actionable. And so I truly believe then, and I know, I continue that now I bring, I bring an extra level of screening to these cases, and I make sure if I'm going to do it, they should be brought. And these cases are just and righteous. And these doctors deserve to get sued. If they don't, I don't want to be part of. So, let's talk about that a little bit. Because we both been doing medical malpractice for a long time, the screening process because again, you know, you tell people, if you got hit by a car, we could file a lawsuit today, you know, and be litigating this case, when it is a medical malpractice case, talk about the extent of that screening process and what it has to go through to ensure that it is a meritorious case, first off on your standards, and then the legal standards of what has to be done before you can file a suit. So, there's a movie out there, the girl next door that I use this line all the time, you got to make sure that the juice is worth the squeeze. Medical malpractice cases, obviously, are extremely expensive to be brought, you have to have them reviewed by experts in every specialty of the folks that you're going to sue. So, it's not uncommon. Before I even know that I have a case that I've spent 5060 $100,000 on these cases. So, you've got to be very selective in the case of your brand. Obviously, you got to make sure that the damages on the back end, okay, justify spending those kinds of monies on the front, because I will tell you, at the end of the year, firms like yours and mine, we end up spending hundreds of 1000s, if not more dollars, on cases you've evaluated, you've investigated, and then you determine that there was no breach of the standard of care. And then unfortunately, something bad happened to this patient. But these doctors and health care providers did everything they could to care for these patients and bad things happen. And they do happen in the absence of malpractice. This is this is what we bring to the practice that understanding. And a lot of patients/clients don't understand just because something bad happened, why they don't have a case. So I hope I answered your question there, Dave. No, you did. You did. And I think that's one of the hardest things sometimes because it does have to be viewed as a business and at times, you have to look at the extent of the damages and what it would cost to bring that forward because it became it can become cost prohibitive for case. And that's a hard thing to explain to clients at times. But again, even harder sometimes because there is a bad outcome. That doesn't mean anybody was at fault. Okay, and that's not an easy decision to get to, nor a cheap one. So let's shift gears a little bit because I know that's one component of what you started. And I think really, back when you started Stuart Neil really emphasized in med mal, but that practice is really expanded. Now. While you still do med mal, there's a lot of other things you've gotten into from products liability to other significant cases. So, let's talk a little bit about what the overall practice had Grossman Roth, you and Cohen consists of now. So, when people ask me what we do, I tell them that we will handle any significant case there is any type of significant catastrophic plane train automobile construction litigation, we're involved in the surf side collapse. We were involved in the FIU Bridge collapse the Miami Dade Community College garage collapse, we've gotten involved in some very significant legal and accounting malpractice cases. We were involved in the citrus canker case, the bank overdraft cases. David's amazing as society changes and science advances, the stuff that comes up that you could never have dreamed of when you and I graduated law school ancestry.com 23. And me, we're now having cases that are coming up that you could not have even dreamed up kids that are 1617 years old that apply to these genetics' companies. And they find out that they're not they're not the natural children of their parents, mommy and daddy are not good. They thought they were, you know, yes, they are. They loved them. They raised them, and they treated them as their own. But Mistakes were made way back when parents were having a hard time conceiving. And so, we're now bringing those kinds of lawsuits against fertility specialists that made those kinds of mistakes. We've had other cases involving stem cell malpractice, for example, stem cells are cutting edge science. And they may well hold the cure for many illnesses for which there is no cure, but we're not there yet. And there are spas and clinics and chiropractors selling this stuff. And right now, it's no better than snake oil, and people are getting hurt. So, it's a crazy time in our world. And the types of cases we're seeing is limitless. And when you think you've seen it all, then something else comes walking in the door. Right? So it really is amazing. It is and you see this transition now. And you see going into lots of different doctors, everybody's going to rejuvenation medicine, you know, we all want to stay pretty and young and pain free. And you're right it is there are a lot of things that are I think, good science and good medicine that are heading in that direction. But there's a lot that there, there almost is no standard of care yet, because people are doing things they shouldn't be doing. Yeah, it's crazy. And the consumers need to be aware, they need to make sure they're going to quality physicians that are truly engaging in quality standard of care medicine, as opposed to using off label non-FDA approved medications. I got a case now where a lady went in to have some fat, you know, she thought she was going to have some liposuction, and they convinced her into having an injection where they inject basically an enzyme that lives or digests the fat. Well, the stuff they injected her was tainted with bacteria. And basically, it ate away in the back of her arms. And she needed to have the backs of her arms, both amputated. She's been through 25 different procedures. She has scarring, she basically has to take antibiotics for the rest of her life because she has what's equivalent to leprosy. And the spa, that did this had an eye doctor as a medical director, and it's an eye doctor injecting her arms with this stuff. So, it is the wild west right now. It's just crazy. And we get we get countless and it's heartbreaking. The plastic surgery clinics, Miami seems to be sort of the bastion for that. And when you look at them, the formula is really easy. The online presence is amazing. Okay, and tremendous. And then you come down here, and it's a storefront clinic somewhere, you know, and these people get horribly, horribly butchered, you know, they fly back to the state they're from, and unfortunately, there's no coverage on the clinic, there's no coverage on the doctors and these poor people have just been totally, totally taken advantage of. And it's a horrible thing to have to deal with. But we get calls almost weekly on those cases. Yeah. And it's not going to go away until the FDA and the other licensing bodies take control and they shut them down or somebody goes to jail. That's not going to stop, you and I are going to continue to stay busy. And the one the one issue I continue to have that I cannot stress enough is how unfair the free kill law is as it relates to the medical malpractice world, right? Obviously, you need to recognize survivor if somebody dies by health care, fraud by a healthcare provider, and there's no surviving spouse or no child under the age of 25. If that same person was killed in a plane, train or automobile, that family would have a cause of action. But in a malpractice setting by a healthcare provider, there's nobody, there's nothing that you can do for them. And they don't understand why that life is worth less than the malpractice. I think that it is in the general liability setting. It's not right and it's not fair. It's not and it's as you know, and I mean, it's been challenged and it's probably the most difficult conversation I've ever had with clients when you get that situation is to say, Listen, there, there may be, you know, a cause of action there, this doctor may have killed your mom or your dad or whoever, but if there's no spouse, and there's no minor child, by law, they've carved that out and successfully. So, but let's talk about that a little bit. Because I know I know you and your firm have done it. And it's every pie lawyer that I know. You know, the goal is, obviously, you know, the first goal is win that case. Okay. But the bigger goal is to bring about change. And if you look, society wise, the change that has come about is often driven by personal injury lawyers. I mean, you look at and I always use an example, the sexual scandal within the Catholic Church. You know, when that first started, oh, it was an American thing. Oh, it was this it was. And it was trial lawyers that kept pushing that and pushing that, and now they pulled back the curtain. And you see what's been exposed is absolutely horrific. But it's only because of that change through civil courts, and lawyers to talk about some of the cases you've dealt with. I know agriculturally. You've been before Congress on things to talk about changes for migrant workers in the fields. Talk about that aspect of your practice and how satisfying that is. So, the case you're referencing is Carlito Kandel area. And that little boy now is 17 years old. When he was an infant, I was called out to a Mokulele to try and help this family. He was born to migrant parents that were smuggled into the United States from Mexico. They were basically indentured servants. And they were exposed to pesticides in the tomato fields that were known to cause birth defects. This poor lady gets pregnant, she's ingesting and sprayed with these pesticides, and the baby's born with no arms and no legs. And so, when I went out there and met this little boy, he was sitting in a bouncy seat in a trailer park. Living in a one-bedroom trailer, there were 16 people living in this one-bedroom trailer, there were little puppies that had been born in the trailer park that were nipping at this child and he was screaming, and obviously, he had no limbs he couldn't fight back. And it was that scene, seeing him unable to do anything to defend himself, that made me commit to try and help him. So, I began to look long and hard about what I could do to try to help that child. And I knew I couldn't sue on behalf of the parents because they were illegal, and immigration would be called. And they were called multiple times through that case, I had, I had to hide these people literally for two years. I couldn't sue on behalf of the parents, you all said workers compensation laws and immunities that prevented doing something on their behalf. But they could not block the case on behalf of the child. And so that's what I did, I bought a brought a straight premises liability claim against the owner and controller and operator of the farms to to represent that child as it relates to the pesticides that he was sprayed with through his mother while in utero. And really to get that case changed, we get the case resolved. But more importantly, we changed everything in terms of how these people were treated. Day for decades, we got to see it's truly modern day slavery. It continues to this day, unfortunately. But they change the labeling, they change the type of pesticides that are being used. And I got to see this child, believe it or not, again, he's now 17. Last week, he is a thriving junior in high school, he's a straight A student, he's got plans to go to college, he wants to be an engineer, we built in my house, we put a trust together. So, the monies will be there to take care of him for the rest of his life. This kid is going to do big things, I just can't wait to see what he's going to do. And but for our system, and the work of those of us that are on these kill lists, okay, he wouldn't have a future and I was I was blessed to have been connected with him. He's made me a better lawyer and a better person, and I can't wait to see what he's going to do. Yeah, there is no greater satisfaction than seeing the results that you've done helping somebody thrive like that. And I've got a young girl now who again, nobody thought she'd ever walk talk there, we're going to put her in a nursing home. She's walking, she's talking, she's functioning, she's communicating. And she's getting better every day. And this is, you know, four years ago that this occurred. So, when you see those things, I mean, that to me is the greatest satisfaction is helping those clients that that didn't have a voice and nobody was going to give them a voice until somebody like you comes along and helps. So, you can see, and I can hear the passion in your voice. You've been doing this for 30 years. What keeps you passionate about it, what continues to drive you every day. When I see a child or a family that's been wronged and is suffering and is in need. That's truly what does it and the hope that we can make it safer and better and prevent these things from happening is what drives me. I will tell you, yes, the satisfaction that you and I get from seeing that little girl who's now walking and talking, or this child who's going to have a future. It's so gratifying. But I will also tell you, Dave, and I know you do a lot of teaching, my efforts to get into the medical schools, is my back my back around my behind the scenes approach of trying to make those changes, I told these medical students last night, if I can educate you, and prevent and avoid these cases, from coming through my door, that I know I've made a significant change, I want you to think twice before you act, I want you to think twice about how it's going to affect that patient, and ultimately, that family, and you're going to be a better doctor, you're going to avoid getting sued, and patients are not going to be harmed. So, I think it's a twofold approach that we're now taking, both in terms of exposing and fighting for those that have been injured. But on the prevention side, I'm getting in the backdoor through the medical schools trying to make it a safer place. And to make these guys, these guys and gals better doctors. Well, and that's tremendous. Because you're right, those changes can have such a big impact. And one of the things I've talked to people in the medical profession and they're terrified, I think sometimes of communication. And I can't tell you how many times I've gotten calls, and there's no malpractice or anything else. But people just wanted answers. Nobody's talking to them. And again, if those med students and those people in the hospitals and risk management would have communication with these patients, before lawyers got involved, a lot of times that's going to peace, they just want an answer to a mystery, it's oftentimes same thing, you know, people come to us first time in a lawsuit, they've never been involved in a lawsuit, we've got to be able to explain to them, what's going to happen, not just hey, just sit back, we're going to take care of this, you'll be fine. People want that information. And that's what's lacking often can't the candor be that old school medicine where the doctor would sit down and talk to the family and the patient, listen to what they're saying. But more importantly, tell them the truth. This is what happened. This is why it happened. If you made a mistake, you come clean people can accept mistakes. Sure, what they can accept is if you make a mistake, and you try and sweep it under the rug, and then something bad happens, and then it becomes a mountain where you're fighting over this thing. And once the truth comes out, there's no defending that. 100%. So let's shift gears a little bit more things. We've talked to everybody since we started this show. We've, I won't say we've come through a pandemic, because I don't think we're there yet. But we're certainly heading in the right direction. Talk about the impact that COVID has had on your practice, not only the volume and what you do in practice wise, but the nature of how you practice what your firm has done to become more adaptable, because I think there's a lot of very positive things that have come out of this. To make us better lawyers, there's been some negative things clearly to but to make us better lawyers, and to make us more efficient at what we do. So what is Grossman Roth, you often call and how did you guys deal with a pandemic and are dealing with it, I guess, still today. So, I will tell you that the pandemic has made me a more efficient lawyer, if you will, prior to there was so much time wasted running to and from hearings and getting on airplanes to go to expert depositions, and things of that nature, we're now able to do all of that by zoom like you and I are talking right now. And I don't think a lot of that is ever going to go back to the way it was I think that's a big positive. Some of the negatives are, I don't think there's any substitute for being in that room with my clients and being able to hug them and console them. When you're in one of those emotional moments. And it's going to happen by the nature of the cases we handle in the practices we have. I think that's what makes you and I are so effective at what we do. We're empathetic, we're fathers, we're husbands we appreciate. We're humans. And when you see somebody suffering, there is no substitute for being able to give that person a hug, and console them and to stop it as opposed to trying to do that. From long distance. I don't like that at all. When I'm taking an expert deposition, I also would much rather be in person as opposed to doing it by zoom. Obviously, the COVID has affected our trial practice. I'm desperate to get back into that courtroom. But if we're doing our job right and thank God we have been the preparation is such that these cases have continued to resolve trials are starting to resume we're getting trial dates and still keep are resolving, and I'm happy to see that. But I don't have the control that I used to have, I used to be able to tell a client, when I met them, within 18 months, I'm going to be giving you a hug and wishing you well, your case is going to be over one way or the other. We can't do that anymore, because everything is so backed up. And lastly, COVID has made me a better person, I think in terms of being around more for my wife and kids and being able to appreciate the hearing the now because prior to COVID, I was like you a million miles a minute airplanes, courtrooms, hearings, on the car, in the car driving to and from Naples constantly. Now I'm home and I'm president and I'm able to enjoy them. And I think that's been a big plus for me. And certainly, that's a huge thing. And I got to give you props, because you go back and you look at the people you surround yourself with. You know, Mark Caron, I can't partners were longtime friends, same class as you. But I look at Mark, again, still married to his first wife, you know, I'm still married to my first one, you're still married your first wife, three kids. And I think those things having that continuity and stability in your life. And those values of what's important, really do translate to being an excellent trial or because what people forget is, you know, it's attorney slash counselor. And there's a lot of counseling that goes on in these cases, just like you said, to be able to do it in person is a huge aspect of it. Because this is a, you know, the people that come see us, their lives have been totally disrupted. And they're never going to be normal again. And we can only normalize them, to the extent that our system helps normalize it via you know, money, benefits and everything else and to change the quality of their life. But anyway, we're running down on time, you're a guy that I think we've now been able to take off the list because I think people see the passion, the compassion, the empathy, and the desire that you still have, it's clear to see burns in you 30 years into this, you know, you're still chomping at the bit to do the same thing every day. And so, Andy, pleasure, love catching up with that. We could do this for a long, long time. But I think I think generally other than opposing counsel, I've got you off all those lists. Okay. So, I appreciate it, my friend. Thank you for your efforts. And I hope you're half right. If I get off one list. You've been successful today, brother. Thanks for having me on. There we go. My pleasure. My pleasure. Give my best to the family. That's another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. We'll be back next week. Thanks.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan, and I've been practicing personal injury law here for 30 years in South Florida goal behind this show, and we named it after the Shakespeare quote, although a lot of people argued that that was a compliment to lawyers, people still chuckled pretty loudly when it was. And when you talk to people today, they still think maybe not a bad idea to kill all the lawyers. So, the goal here today is to bring in other South Florida lawyers, different areas of law, kind of educate some people on it, maybe one by one, we can kind of take some people off the kill list. So, my guest this morning is a great, great friend been for the last 30 years. And a truly fantastic lawyer who does a lot of things that I know nothing about. So, this is definitely going to be entertaining, because I'm going to get to learn along but let me bring in Dan Newman, a partner Nelson Mullins. Dan, how are you? Great today, and hopefully I'm going to get off that kill list by the end of this show. Slowly, why did we get oh, yeah, the majority at least I don't know, we get everybody off that list with you. But we can get the majority of so. So, Danny, let's go back and talk. You went to George Washington, you studied finance? What was the path and why go to law school? Was that something that was always going to be done or had that come about? So, when I went to college, I thought I was going to go into the investment field investment banking or something investment-related. I was a finance major you said, Bachelor of Business Administration, I took a business law class and in my business, curriculum and undergrad, and that really gave me a passion for the law. I had a great, great teacher and, and he taught us about contracts and about business deals and about litigation and how disputes arise and how there are different arguments, and how to be an advocate. And that was fascinating to me. And so, after my junior year in college, I decided that I wanted to go to law school. And I wanted to be able to combine those two passions, the finance end, and the legal end, I knew I wanted to be a litigator, I knew that that was probably the best fit for my personality. And so that's, that's how it came about. Alright, so that now at least gives me an explanation as to how you know about contracts, because you and I had the same contracts teacher at University of Miami law school. And I don't think we learned a whole lot about contracts in that class. But we'll leave that alone for now. We had a lot of laughs, though. So, we become friends in law school, you get out of law school, you take a job with the SEC, and I think oh my god, that's fantastic. He's working for college football. Wasn't that sec. So, you go to New York for the Securities Exchange Commission. Let's talk about that. Because I think that's kind of fascinating. It was a great opportunity. It came about unexpectedly, there was the opportunity there. It was a bad time during that period of time, it was there was a banking crisis going on. And there was there was a little downturn in the economy. And someone told me there was an opportunity to go work at the SEC. That was a passion of mine. It was financed, it was securities, I took securities law in college, and learned about the securities laws learned about business and finance and tried to take courses fit for that, in law school. And as well as the securities class of law school, went up to the SEC interviewed, extremely passionate about what they did, what they do and continue to do. There they are, you know, they essentially are the overseer of our financial markets in many different ways. And I went up and I worked for what's called the enforcement division of the SEC. And our job was to enforce the securities laws. So, we would investigate potential violations and enforce those through legal actions, many cases settled or they go to trial. And, you know, in the process of that, I learned a tremendous amount, fascinating cases, everything from insider trading, which everyone hears a lot about financial filing fraud, where companies may file inaccurate information about what their numbers really look like, and people rely upon that and broker-dealer, misconduct to I mean, anything that could be a fraud in connection with securities markets, we went out we would, that would be an aim of ours to investigate and potentially prosecute, enforce the laws. Which, which again, I think is fascinating, because it's something that we all sort of know a little about, you know, we hear the Bernie made offs and things like that, and the scams, but But little things like you're talking about where information might intentionally be wrong, and that misleads investors and things like that. So I mean, just the scope of that enforcement, How broad is the SEC and how much, I guess, d a catch. I mean, you know, everybody is it's sort of like the IRS, you know, how everybody cheats on their taxes. You know, but a lot of these companies do and how broad is that enforcement? So, the enforcement is and I should say it's civil enforcement, the the Department of Justice enforces criminally prosecutes, and a lot of times there are, they work together because the facts are the same. But it is, as you said, there's a lot going on out there and the agency can't go after everyone can catch everything that's going on. So it tries to essentially go after cases that are going to have an impact on others. And they show the areas that are there, areas that they really want to make sure that people aren't engaging in misconduct aren't defrauding people. And that actually changes by each chairman of the SEC, you'll see different areas where their focus may be. So, when I was there, because of the banking crisis, I go back to that a lot of the enforcement was directed to bank holding companies, they were public companies that held these banks, and all these banks held real estate on their books at levels that just wasn't accurate. They were way overinflated. So, their financials look great, but it wasn't really the case. And so that was a big, big pet peeve of the chairman of the SEC at that time. And also, insider trading was always big, you just come off of hearing about cases of Michael Milken and others like that there were a lot of insider trading cases out there. So those were big, and there was, you know, a lot of the enforcement, the enforcement division is not, it's not huge, but it's pretty substantial. And they're enforcement attorneys throughout the country in different offices. And you see those big cases, and they're meant to tell people to look, the SEC is out there, they're looking to enforce, don't go sideways, you know, with the law don't even try and go up to the edge. I mean, look, you know, they can even ultimately, and I know it's DOJ but you know, take down Martha Stewart. So, you know, I mean, you could do insider trading and Snoop Dogg and Martha Stewart gets interesting. Yeah, it's an insider trading, those are tough cases, the fascinating things about those from when no matter what side you're on, but if you're in the SEC, it's like a puzzle, you try and put pieces of the puzzle together, you may see that there was a lot of trading before a big announcement and the stock rose as a result of the announcement or the event, whatever it may have been, maybe there was the announcement of a merger with another company. And then you take a look at okay, who you know, what was going on with the trading? Why was there all this trading the day before the announcement, and then you try and look at who is trading and then try and figure out how they may or may not have known something, you know, look at phone records, calendars, relationships. And so they are fascinating cases. And there, there are so many of them that just have amazing facts. I mean, fascinating fact patterns, really on how people may have gotten the information. I mean, the bottom line now is today, two things are so sophisticated. There are so many ways to determine how information flowed and where money's flowed that and communications, that, that there are a lot of ways to catch folks. So a little unrelated to that. But I mean, and I just read another article this morning. So you go back and, and Gamestop basically seems to get manipulated through social media and goes through the roof. And now apparently Bed Bath and Beyond as something similar that's going on? How does that tie into things? And I mean, you know, without getting into a legal opinion, but that effect of social media sort of playing with the market? What are your thoughts on that? It is, and it was actually in the SES study that just came out recently on that. And, you know, the, what, what the SEC and others were looking for is Was this some type of, you know, group effort, some type of mass manipulation that was spearheaded and the group move. But you know, they're what you have now, as you have a lot more retail investors in the market, because of, because of broker-dealers like Robin Hood and others, you have people who never traded before in the market. And they're also out there on these blogs talking about things and talking about concepts and they're moving, they are moving the stocks. And but it's not necessarily illegal, it could be if it's an organized effort to do that, to manipulate the stock, but it's difficult, it's difficult to know whether that's the case, but if it was, and if there were people that were at spearheading that, that would be illegal if that could be shown that it was happening. The other concept you have you're not to get too technical is you have what's called a lot of short-sellers out there on these stocks. And what happens is, if a stock price starts going up, there's a short squeeze, which means that the short sell was the people who sold the stock and don't own it are saying and their goal is to basically if you sell the stock short, you think the price is going down, you're going to sell it high and then try and buy it back low. And that's where your profit is. If the stock price is going up, you have to cover that short sell. And that's what happens. A lot of them start covering and that drives the price even higher and drives the momentum and the volume of the stock even higher. They're very interesting. So let's, let's take the wealth of what you learned from the SEC. And you come back now to South Florida. Talk about that transition. What brought you back here So what ultimately brought me back here is, is my fiancee at the time and now wife was a Floridian and she, she really liked living in Florida. And I really liked Florida and I had great friends down here like yourself and just really liked the lifestyle down here. So, I came back down, I was looking for a firm that would give me the opportunity to do both business litigation, contracts, breach of contract tortious interference, breach of non compete, you know, business fraud, come while called commercial divorces, right to partners in a business don't get along, and things like that, and allow me to do the securities work from the other side. And so that I came down. And I started working with a firm called at that time it was called and Garcy Pedroza and it gave me the opportunity to do that and hold my litigations by Business Litigation skills, and learn construction litigation as well. So it was just a great opportunity for me to accomplish all that, you know, and have the access to be able to learn new areas of law, because I think you always want to keep learning. Well, 100% and we have to give props to Stephanie, who is a badass prosecutor in her own right, who's had a tremendous legal career, maybe we'll have to get her on because it'd be very interesting to have a prosecutor on so you can tear up for that, because I'm going to call her I will. I will. Alright, so you come down now. Now what I'm fascinated about is so you come down and the firm you start with is not a huge firm. Now things have sort of evolved and you've kind of gone the gambit, because we'll get to Nelson Mullins, but now you're part of an 800 Lawyer firm with 25 locations throughout the country. But talk about that transition midsize firm, bigger firms, to a very, very large firm now what's the difference in the practice of law. So the difference is in the when I went to what was tuned Garcy Pedro's ultimately was to Cardenas, in the end, by the time I had left was what we call boutique litigation firm, it did very high-end Business Litigation at a very sophisticated high-end level. But you could represent you had a lot more flexibility on who your clients may or may not be right because as lawyers, we always have to check for conflicts that no one else in our firm represents the other side that we may be in litigation with. But it really gave me the opportunity what and what I still think was the greatest thing is, you know, it puts your feet to the fire right away, you're either you know, you pour the cement on the shoes, you're going to sink or swim or learn, you run it the cases where lean and mean it was a partner and an associate, and you had to be familiar and know everything and you had to jump in and, and learn how to be a litigator, you know, right away and learn by doing which I still you know, there, there are different theories on that. But you know, you always want people that are overseeing you and mentoring you and teaching you but it's a great one at a young age, you have the opportunity to do things like that, that was great about the government, they gave me the opportunity to a lot more than a private firm would have when I first went out and this firm to tune Garcy Pedroza gave me the opportunity to do a lot of things early on, exposed me to a lot of things, and I had to learn, I had to become, you know, knowledgeable about and learn things I didn't know about and forcing me into that situation was great for me personally. And that's one of the difficulties I think young lawyers face. And I talk to my students about that a lot. You know, it's very difficult now, as a litigator, to get into the courtroom, to get cases where you're actually going to be able to get in there. And why I tell a lot of them, much like you went to the government there, you know, if you can state attorney, the public defender, that's a good way to get a practice of being in court, because part of the problem now is there are less and fewer trials. And then clients want the big dog to try the case. They don't want to handle it to some underling. And, and so it does get more and more difficult. So, you're blessed in that regard to have really gotten that baptism of fire. It was great, I got to work with terrific people. And in about 10 years after getting there I moved to a firm called Broughton Caselle, which was a Florida firm that had been around for at that point in time, probably more than 60 years. And that was bigger firm was a Florida-based firm, but we have offices all throughout the state. So going into a bigger organization. It didn't necessarily change my practice area. And what I did accept it basically, the clients became a little bit bigger. And some of the cases that we may have dealt with at the old firm because of conflicts we could no longer do. And then in 2018 Brian Kursaal merged with Nelson Mullins and now Samoens is a national firm and it's been a great merger very, you know, very similar corporate philosophies. You know, the way the way people look the the people have similar outlooks, they're very entrepreneurial, but With a big firm, obviously, there's, you know, there's more administration. And there's more potential for conflicts you always have because other people are representing other, you know, other folks. And when you have 100, plus lawyers, there's a potential that someone else is representing someone who may be adverse to your potential client. But the amazing thing is, in a big firm like this, and the resources, we have every practice area, I have people with expertise in everything. So, whenever I have questions, I have all kinds of people I can go to, to, you know, to talk about issues. And, you know, the greatest thing and one of the greatest things about practicing was talking to people and getting other ideas, even about cases and about facts and about the law. And when no matter what we do, there are other areas of law, that impact on the case, you know, you may be doing a contract case, but there may be healthcare issue in that contract, there may be a HIPAA issue, you know, on whether certain documents can be disclosed, and how they have to be protected. So, it's great to have that, that wealth of knowledge to be able to go to or you may have a client that is a litigation client that wants to do a real estate transaction, and you have people that will handle that end of it. So, it's been great, very calm, you know, complimentary, as far as the people that I work with, I'm really very lucky in that regard. Fantastic. Well, yeah, Mark, Mark, and I have a very complex conflict check, I asked him, Hey, do you have a conflict with this, he asked me to have a conflict, that pretty much covers it. And then from there, but you bring up a great point, and, and, you know, with a pandemic, and a lot of people started working remotely. And I've talked to a lot of lawyers about this. And, you know, lawyers have the ability to function and working remotely. And we've seen that with a lot of firms. But what's missing from that is, I think what you just alluded to, it's the dialogue of being able to maybe walk down the hallway to talk to somebody else and bounce ideas off of them, or talk to somebody in a different field, that sort of is gone. I mean, it's there, you can do it technologically. But I think a lot of that sort of natural organic things that happened at a law firm, have been kind of taken away from the pandemic, and it's going to be very interesting to see where things go. So what have you guys done? You know, Are you fully back in the office? Are you hybrid? Or what are you doing? So we are, I would say, we're a little bit of a hybrid, you know, technically the goal is to have people back in the offices, but you know, different people have different situations and different comfort levels. And so, and people may have a situation where they have someone at home that's compromised, or they, you know, during the pandemic, they may have had childcare issues where kids weren't in school. So it brought up a whole host of issues. So we are, we're hybrid, mostly, most of our offices are out with most of the people in the office. But that's not the case at all offices. And in some offices, we have most of the people working are a good number of people, I should say, working remotely. For me, personally, I'm a dinosaur, I always. So, I never stopped coming into the office. I like being in the office, I do better work in the office when I'm separated from being home. And I like to collaborate with people. So when the cases that I was working on the people I was working with, we were in the office, so we were having that collaboration, we were having that discussion when an idea came up, I would go down the hall and I would talk to my colleague and say, look, what do you think about this? What about that? Here's what I think we should do? Let's try it or what do you think of this document I just found take a look at this, or, Hey, you know, the witnesses coming in for a case and I don't think you can work with a witness unless they're with you. For me, it's much better than in front of me. So, you know, the way I would have witnesses always come in to talk with them. And you know, and meet with them. Because I like that, you know, that approach to me is the best way to do it. It's hard to replicate that video. It's not impossible, and some people are great at it. But for me, it just worked better with having that collaboration. I think we're social creatures as especially as litigators, right. We like to be with people. We like to bounce ideas off. And that's when we do our best work when we're talking to other people. 100% And we were blessed in that regard in that with a small firm, and we had adequate space. We gave people the option, but yeah, pretty much from day one. I was able to go back in the office, I'm going to park my car, go up the elevator, bring my lunch with me. But there was something about sort of the mechanism of driving to the office, going to the office being in the office. And then yeah, the ability to kick things around because I don't know about you I often find just verbalizing something. I'll talk to Mark about it. I'll be going back and forth. And when I hear it out loud, I either go oh, that's going to work or Oh, that's really dumb. Without even getting feedback, you kind of sorted out yourself but but yeah, alone sort of on your keyboard. That's a lot harder to do. It is tough. I mean it for me, it is tough when you can, when you can verbalize when you can bounce around ideas when you can, you know, sit with other people, and sometimes just thinking, you know, sometimes it happens at social conversation, you do not even need to talk about the particular case, but then you have an idea and you're like, you know, what do you think about this, and it makes a world of difference, I think, to be able to do that. And so the pandemic raised the, you know, a lot of interesting issues, though. And, you know, for it did cause the, you know, disruption in some regards, still has with, you know, anyways, and but I do think some great things came out of I mean, motion calendar for state court, non-evidentiary hearings, motion calendars, probably the greatest thing to do on Zoom, it's five minutes, you're not going to the courthouse, it saves the clients money, it saves the attorneys time, it's a win-win for everybody. And, you know, we were allowed to come in at the beginning of the Panda, even though the courts, you know, have been remote. And although they're getting back to, you know, having trials, because apparently some lawyer must have written the Dade County ordinance, it said the lawyers were essential personnel and could come into business, even during the shutdown. So I'll leave it to the lawyer to find the loophole to get everybody there in the midst of a pandemic, but, but we've talked about in the past, and I do give a lot of credit, really, the South Florida judiciary, but But I mean, a lot of the state court judges and what they did here in Dade County, they were on the, on the front of a lot of this. And so yeah, those zooms, the efficiency and use of time for the court and the lawyers and to the benefit of the client to have a motion calendar where everybody can be sitting at their office, you know, and knock out a five minute as opposed to going to the courthouse being down there. So it has been and I think you're right, we'll draw a lot of interesting things out of that. I want to ask you about something because again, another concept that I find fascinating with what you do. And again, I heard you were going to be receiving that, well, he's not that tall. But you know, maybe he could make it in the league. And I know you're a hockey player, but talk about the concept of a receivership. Because I know that's part of what you've done. And you've done it in some literally hundreds of millions of dollar transactions that have gone on what is what is a receiver do and how does that come about. So, a receiver basically comes in at the, at the order of a court generally in cases. So, there are many instances where many situations where it can come about. And actually, in Florida, we have a statute called the Uniform Commercial Real Estate receivers to act for property cases where a court can appoint a receiver, it had been equitable in nature. Before that, in a lot of ways in that the courts have the equal power to appoint a receiver, the receiver comes in in a very broad, high-level receiver will come in, and the receiver will essentially be put in charge of a situation whether it's a group of companies or a business. And the idea of the receiver basically, is to make the best decision for that, for that business or that or that property. In the Florida Statute. in federal court, many times, a federal judge will appoint a receiver, the SEC, or the FTC, or CFTC, will sue somebody for fraud, maybe they were maybe there was a Ponzi scheme that was going on. And they will say, Judge, we need to have the agency will say we need to have received or appointed. So the herd can marshal the assets is kind of one of the points that the phrases that's used a lot, that means there's a lot of people that have been defrauded here, let's find out what assets are still there, because assets evaporate and those fraud cases, Marshal those assets, figure out how to recover additional monies for the benefit of the estate. And ultimately, hopefully, for those, you know, defrauded investors in that type of situation. In a property situation, it's trying to figure out the best way to continue, you know, to run that property, collect the rents make and there are other parties involved, there may be a bank that has a mortgage in it. And then a lot of times it can come about by, you know, the bank action. So the receiver comes in in Florida and we have statutes that allow folks to recover monies for called fraudulent transfers. And that means if something has been at a very high level transferred without value to try and either defraud creditors or for you know without value at a time when the entity was insolvent, and the receivers a lot of times will bring what are called callback cases in these fraud case and say, You know what, you got paid out money, but you know, John Smith over here, didn't get paid out money and they're down that money, you got paid out more than you put in. So that money has to come back to the estate to be divvied out or I was receiver over a group of companies in the healthcare industry. At one point in time. We actually kept operating those companies and ultimately gave the defrauding shareholders interests in those companies, as well as pursuit litigation, recover additional monies to distribute out to those folks to try and make them as you know, get them as much money back as possible. ball or in this situation, like I said the property to keep the property running to put it back on its feet, make sure it's been administered responsibly. And then the report to the court. So you're sort of appointed by the court and then work for the court, correct back and say, here's how we sort of assessing it. But it's fascinating because it it gets to be I guess, so multi-technical, because you talk about, you know, the drawbacks. Well, all of those sort of spun off into their own almost little litigation. Right. Right. They are each their own separate litigation. I mean, you try and do without litigation. And but if you can't, you will pretend it's the appropriate case. And the facts of the law are on your side, you did some litigation and litigation maybe for other things in addition to the drawbacks, you know, in connection with those cases, but the business background, at least for me, was a great asset in serving as a receiver and representing receivers. Because understanding how businesses work, even financial statements and an operations and having that law degree background of you know, of issue spotting was a great combination, because ever see everywhere, a lot of hats, you're reporting, you're appointed by the court, you report to the court, you're essentially you know, working for the court, and trying to do the best you can to get money back for the investors or right to ship, if it's some other type of receivership. But it is you wear a lot of hats here, you know, trying to litigate, you're trying to potentially run a business and keep the business if it's a viable business, you want to keep that business running, and hopefully spin it off on the other side of the receivership. So, it can continue to be a viable business just because something bad happened, the business may be, it may still be a good idea. And there may be value to it. And you don't want to, you want to try and protect as many people as you can, you know, employees and things like that also. So, you wear a lot of hats. And it's a fascinating process. Well, you're also I would guess, a little bit of a King Solomon, and that you're trying to sort of balance the fairness in that versus what you're spending sort of scorched earth to go after everybody out there when, you know, yeah, I guess you've got to make a determination, what ultimately is recoverable, so that you're not just wasting resources chasing something and not being able to recoup? Now, great. It's a great point. I mean, you have to make economic decisions the whole time, you may have a great case, but you may not be able to recover $1, you may get a piece of paper if you want, that doesn't make a lot of sense. So you have to make economic decisions on what is, you know, going to be the best use of usually very limited resources that you have, and so that you're constantly making those decisions. And that's both on deciding whether to bring a case, whether it's Bible, whether it's collectible, and whether to settle a case, you know, and what levels make sense because of the same determinations. So what do you find, and it may not, you may not be able to sort of tell me an average, but in cases that you've been involved in and have others, where there's a receivership and a lot of people have been defrauded to us what sort of percentage do you see of recovery for the people that were defrauded? You know, is it a 30? Is it a 50? Is it a 10? You know, where does that sort of rank out? It really depends. Each case is different on the cases that I've seen, or the cases that I've watched others be involved in, I mean, it, you know, unfortunately, there are some cases where there's no money, the money is it is gone, it has been stolen, it has been sent offshore, and there may and it may be very limited on who you may be able to pursue to recover monies and it doesn't you don't have the resources or it doesn't make economic sense, all the way to, you know, cases like in the making off litigation, there were significant dollars that were recovered for invest. Now, there was one very big recovery out of Florida, actually, that was in the multiple billions of dollars that, you know, helped that a lot. I've had a receivership where we've been north of you know, we're north of 50%. You know, usually, so it runs the gamut. It can be it really it generally is never and very, very, very rarely ever anything close to 100, we usually see them trend somewhere between five cents to 25 cents in the area. That's why we're real proud of the one where we're north of 50% on the dollar, and we're still going at present, but each case depends on the facts on what assets may be there and what claims may be available and who you can bring those claims against them. How you know whether you can recover anything from those folks, so they collectible. Well, Danny, listen, we could talk about this because I'm fascinated by it. Because again, something I know very little about. And so to kind of learn this and see the scope of what goes on is really fascinating. But unfortunately, we're running out of time but I think we've established enough, you know, given your expertise and you're just a good guy too, you know, that we might be able to move you off the kill list. And so hopefully we'll get a general consensus on that. Well, I appreciate that. And I really thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak with you today. First of all, you know, I love speaking with you in general. So it's always great to see you. And, you know, it's a great conversation this morning. So thanks for giving me the opportunity. And anytime, and I will also point out to Danny is what's your role now and in the alumni. The income I will be I am the president-elect. So next year, I will be the incoming president of the US law Alumni Association. Fantastic. And I'm blessed along with Danny and others that we've got a core of people that got three decades hard, hard to believe, graduated from law school three decades ago, that still call each other friends, which is great, get together frequently. And more importantly, I'm able to pick up the phone and get some really good advice from you, which I rely on and often do. Now, same here, and the stories that our dinners keep getting better. Same story. The lies, the lies get longer, the stories get better. Yeah, it is. It is it would be fun to chat it out, you know, the 10 and 2030. Because it is the same story. But it's amazing how 30 years and now it's a much better story than it was. It is amazing. We've got a cast of characters and I appreciate it. Danny really appreciate spending time today. Partner Nelson Mullins fantastic firm that seems to be growing and growing. And just good luck with all of that and we will definitely see you soon my friend. Thank you very much. Thanks again. I'll talk to you soon. You got it. All right. That's it for this week. Next week. We will continue on our quest not to kill all the lawyers. Have a great week and we'll see you next time!

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. That phrase Shakespeare wrote back in the 15th century that was uttered by Dick the butcher to raucous laughter and applause, which today still people kind of go…. not a bad idea. Although one of the things I love about it now this show is getting a little bit of traction, I get all these calls from lawyers saying “you know, that was actually a flattering thing”. I think today, they still might laugh and think killing all lawyers is a good start. I'm David Heffernan and I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for the past 30 years now, which is scary to think about. The goal behind these shows is to bring in lawyers from varying walks of life and fields of practice, and talk about different areas of law, get to know some of these lawyers a little bit, and maybe one by one, we'll just start checking a few of these people off of the kill list. And my guest this morning, and I'm just absolutely thrilled to have because we had dinner with a lot of our classmates last night from 1991, graduating class at UVM Law School, which is where I met this gentleman. We've been friends for 30 years, one of my best friends, and one of the top maritime and Admiralty lawyers in the country. Chip Birthisel. Thanks, Dave, that's awfully nice stuff to say. And I wouldn't come on before because I didn't want to be killed. Well, the goal here today is maybe we get you moved off that list, one at a time. So, one of the things that I think is fascinating about you, and I want to get into what maritime and Admiralty law is, and everything else, and again, that's, we could spend a week talking about it. But one of the things I think is amazing about you is your story. And I and I want to go back, I want to go way back to a 17-year-old kid that wasn't quite sure where he was going in life. Was he going to be a dropout surfer? What was he going to do and, and made a pretty critical decision? So, talk about the decision you made at 17. And then I want to talk about the benefits that came out of that. Well, it's kind of funny, I at 17, I was dropped out of high school. I didn't see myself really going anywhere. My parents, I was fifth-generation Floridian my parents made the mistake to move me to Fort Worth, Texas, which was a long way from the coast that was a young surfer kid who lived up in Cocoa Beach, Florida. So, we went out to Texas, I didn't like it a whole lot, I figured the best way to get out of there would be to join the service. So, I joined the Coast Guard, which actually got me a wide goal to go to California and surf and get around the country. Every place there was a coast and surf. And so that's how I've gotten out now at least we know the motivation was I'll join somewhere where I can go surf. That was part of it. The other part of it was that the drummer for my band that I had back then in Texas, we broke up, he went back to Florida because he had some family issues. And so, the band broke up and I had to go and get a real job. All right, well, we're going to look at a long-storied career with the Coast Guard. But one of the things I think is amazing is the way you took advantage of the opportunities. So, you're a near high school dropout. But while you're in the Coast Guard, you're afforded the opportunity to get an undergraduate degree. Yeah, you know, I got to tell you back then it was a, I joined I wanted to boot I went to boot camp in January of 1975. It's a different world back then entirely. The military was a was a land of opportunity. I went in as a high school dropout made rate as fast as I possibly could move up, you know, enlisted ranks as fast as I possibly could. So, I started out as an E one. And then I retired 21 years later, as a lieutenant commander with a law degree. So, during that time that I was in, I was able to finish high school number one. Number two, went to University of San Francisco and got an undergraduate degree at night on the VA, then went to Johns Hopkins and got a master's degree at night on the VA when I was stationed in Washington. And then the Coast Guard selected me for the law program, after I served on a fast patrol boat out of Miami. And, and I went to Miami and that's where we met. That's where we met, and I can't believe it's 30 years ago. But was nice to have dinner with a bunch of the boys last night we are blessed to have a core of friends that go back that long. And I mean, we do it, you're nice enough to come in from Tampa. But we have dinners every three months or so. And it's just it's amazing to see those guys. It really is. It's hard to believe it's probably harder for you guys to believe 3030 years have passed than it is for me. I'm a bit I was the oldest guy out of the bunch. And so, I feel it a little more every morning. You guys do, but no, it is outstanding. Alright, so let's talk about that. So, the Coast Guard gives you an opportunity to get an incredible education. When you finish law school, what was your commitment then? Because then you go to naval justice, right? I did the commitment out of law school was five years. In fact, I had some people kind of fight me when I went in, that I didn't have more time than that coming out of law school to serve in the Coast Guard. Because I only served the five-year commitment before I retired because I decided I wanted to retire at 38. So, I served in a capacity, as you knew, litigating and basically defending kids that were Why say kids, Coast Guard people, I was stationed with a Navy, I've defended Coast Guard, Navy, and Marine Corps officers and then listed people at courts-martial, a whole bunch of them, like hundreds over the years. I also prosecuted some of those. Then I went and I was the Coast Guard's designated lawyer at justice at the Admiralty and aviation litigation section in Washington, which traveled around the country basically, on the east coast. There's one on the West Coast as well, but traveling on the east coast and the Gulf Coast doing cases for the United States, typically, oil spill cases and defending the United States where they're being sued for personal injury, wrongful death, that sort of thing. Usually, the Coast Guard would, you know, if somebody died in a rescue or whatever, they would sue us, right? So, you know, I did that for a couple of years, and it was a perfect opportunity to go ahead and, and head out. So, I retired back in 19. I've been retired for 25 years now. More importantly, during that time of prosecuting and defending Did you ever get a general on the stand and say, I want the truth? It's not quite glamorous. So tremendous opportunities, you retire a full commission Lieutenant Commander at the ripe old age of 38. And now set up and run your firm which you're one of the founding partners of Hamilton-Miller and Bertha so let's talk about now transitioning from a sort of the military into now the real world and as I said in the intro, it's maritime and Admiralty. So, what does that mean? Admiralty is a body of law that deals with ships and shipping. Primarily, maritime is a broader concept it can also involve environmental and, and a variety of other things that just have to do with the water. So, by the time I retired from the Coast Guard between one of the things I didn't mention in there is that when I was operational in the Coast Guard, you can't just typically go be a lawyer, at least you couldn't back then you can kind of now. But you had to transfer in and out of operational commands, which meant, in my day, since I wasn't an aviator, that you had to drive ships, which is fun. I mean, so I got to drive ships for years. big ships, little ships, not aircraft carrier writings, but you know, the Atari 200 foot 200 plus and 373 178 foot destroyer, escort class vessels, and that sort of thing. So, so I got to really, I grew up on boats as a kid. And then I did the Coast Guard thing for 21 years. So, it was almost like I was training my whole life to become if I was going to be a lawyer to become a maritime lawyer, right? And that's kind of where I ended up. And it really has helped most of the people that I have associated within my firm that I have had responsibility for hiring have had prior experience my friend, Jules Massey, who's my partner over in Tampa, he was a fort Schuyler graduate at the maritime Academy in New York. Sail professionally for years. We've got you to know, various licensed captains that work for us on pleasure craft, we got various my partner, Jennifer Siebold, has been on boats our whole life over in Cortez. So it kind of enabled me to form my own world of people that really knew the point in from the square into the round and if you will and practice the law with a firm understanding in the Admiralty and the maritime realm of what is going on the water. Well and in your practice, I mean, you do lots of consulting work and everything else. With shipping companies and you and I were kinds of chatting coming over here. You know, other than then sort of the advancement of ships getting bigger and maybe faster and everything else, the world still relies on shipping to move everything around the world. We're now in a position where the supply chain has now become a household word, because people go, What can't get anything? Oh, its supply chain, you know, what does that mean? Well, it means there are 100 cargo ships, and we can't get them unloaded, and everything's jammed. So, talk about the kind of just what that encompasses when you start working in that because it's, you're talking about countries around the world. I mean, you know, international trade back and forth with everything. So, what's the type of work you do? And who are your clients? Well, that's funny, because I have a real general maritime practice, meaning I do a lot of work, defense work for marine insurers who assigned me to defend people, if you have an incident here on in Biscayne Bay, for instance, where somebody hurt or killed or whatever, or even just property damage, I'll get hired by the insurance company, typically to represent the insured, which is the person who owns the boaters involved in the accident typically, and, and help them you know, defend them in court. And whatever the lawsuit is. The maritime world as part of that also encompasses because marine insurance deals with Surface Transportation as well. All the goods moving across this country by truck, all are insured by inland marine policies of some sort. I didn't know that. So basically, everything that moves in this country or into this country and around this country is if it's insured is insured by some form of a marine insurance policy. Even some of the aviation insurance in marine insurance. So, it's broad, it's a broad, overall transportation perspective. This whole supply chain thing that we're dealing with these days really is I think it really opened people's eyes when the Suez Canal thing happened, right? And it's like, well, you know, how can this one ship stuff? Well, first of all, how can you get you're going to get stuck? I mean, the layman sitting there going, are you driving the ship, and then I see a picture and it's jammed into the bank. I'm like, that's the drunk guy, you know, trying to dock his boat at Matheson not the professional Captain crossing the Suez Canal. Well, you would think that, and it's but you know, stuff happens. Things like the Concordia, for instance, when that kind of stuff where you're just kind of messing around, apparently, and not paying attention. It can happen just like you're driving down Dixie Highway and not paying attention. Anything can happen. So, but I think everybody saw the importance of that, but it the Suez of transportation in the Suez Canal, particularly transportation by water, one ship stuck in the Suez Canal, can affect shipping worldwide for months, maybe even years, right. The backup in Long Beach right now and the other ports throughout the United States is an issue. The reason why that's an issue too, is because you know, in order to get the ship around here, economically, you got to go through a canal. Well, you know, shippers want to build bigger ships, and you can't build bigger ships unless you have big enough canals to get them through my site. It's like you can't get an 18 Wheeler across this country unless you have an interstate or decent size highway to get the thing across. So, it's exacerbated not only by the fact that the ships are tied up in or anchored off of Long Beach trying to get in. And it's the problem that they're having out there, I believe is primarily a labor problem, they can't get enough or labor in space problem, they can't get enough people in to offload those containers, right. And they got no place to put them once they offload them. Because if they're not going to keep them on the port, they're going to behave to go be dragged somewhere else to dredge which takes trucks, right so you got to have truck drivers to do that. And then once they get there, the Amazon guys got to hook up to that chassis and take it across the country wherever it's got to go. And we all know that that's there's a huge shortage there. I'm in the scope right now of being in the throes of trial. I just bought a new house a few months ago when a new house it's an old-new house and I'm trying to get things fixed and repaired and you can't get you can't know anything to do it. I mean, it took me six months to get grass in my front yard. They almost threw me out of the neighborhood. So, everything that we do include aviation cargo relies on that aviation cargo is limited Of course by size, and weight. Things that move into this town every single day by aviation modes are basic like flowers, fresh flowers get flown in every single day, right cruise lines and hotels and Disney and all that kind of stuff. But Everything else is moving my ships somewhere some form. Alright. One of the things that fascinates me about Admiralty law is the ability to arrest the vessel. And I know you've been involved in that. And we always joke, you know how to get handcuffs big enough and everything else. But talk about that process because again, I think that when people look at an Admiralty law, it's so critical to have somebody with your expertise on it not only expertise but connections as well, because it's me it's an archaic system. And that if you don't understand the nuances of it, and you know, I mean, even on simple maritime things, the cases I've handled, and I've had plenty over the years, I'll generally affiliate with a maritime council just to make sure we're doing the right things. And we're position because I want to do the service to my client that way, and I'm just talking about, you know, small boat cases or deaths or cruise line. But when you talk about the Admiralty law talking about arresting vehicles, how does that come about? Well, that's one thing about the maritime law is that it is archaic, and it's, it's, it's got its roots. Back in the laws of old around, which is, you know, ancient laws. The laws are, frankly, somewhat consistent throughout the world with things like vessel arrests, and then so forth. Because we're one big shipping world vessel arrest came about or the ability to arrest a vessel, the maritime law sees a vessel as an entity as a thing as a person, right. So that person can commit a tort, it can, it can be negligent, it can be, it can, it can purchase fuel, and not pay for it, and have to ultimately be arrested to pay for the fuel. So, what happens in vessel arrest which is typically only actually a federal court process and right entry, is you. Let's say you chip shipped and pay for its fuel, you go down to the federal courthouse, you file a complaint against the vessel, you have the marshals mount up and ride down there and do what they call stickering. The vessel, they tie it up wherever it is, you put a custodian on board, and they take care of the vessel. And then the litigation begins over what is going to become of it who owes what. And ultimately, the vessel because it's like a person is ultimately responsible and can be sold at a marshal sale to pay the debt. Okay. And that's really what it's about. It's about money. It's about pain. The same thing in a personal injury case you can there a seaman, for instance, can arrest a vessel, it rarely happens, right? typically what happens is the threat of arrest allows the vessel owning company and or its insurer to step up and post either a letter of undertaking or a bond, which is just you know, as good cash. It's like this, and we're good for this and allow the vessel to sail because the vessel not sailing. Yeah. is huge money. Yeah, I imagine you get the owner's or the companies attention pretty quickly. When that vehicle is now in season, there are marshals and they can't move it anymore. So as part of the maritime thought process, you always have to be thinking about what kind of exposures there are under old maritime principles like rest that you typically don't have to think about. And so, it is good to ask your maritime buddy a question if you got one. Absolutely. And an affiliate, because it's, there are lots of little traps out there. Well, one of the other things that that you see in maritime law, and again, the significance of it, is much like you see a lot of times with trucking cases and everything else. When things go bad. They go really bad. Okay. I mean, you know, they're generally not little fender benders between two tankers. So talk about the scope of that. And I mean, you can talk a little bit about your own experience. I mean, I know you handled, and we're a key part of the team, and so far, oh, you know, a horrible, horrible case where that ship goes down and you've got deaths and all of that. How does that get orchestrated and done because you guys were able to resolve all of those claims, right? We were and including the cargo claims, because you know, it's not just the horrible fact of losing crew members and family members. And that was a horrible thing. It was, I was proud to have been part of that, and allowed to be part of it was on the liability side for the company. There was a team of lawyers that was affiliated with that. And they were all run by the mike Holt, who was the head of the tow At the time, the head legal guy at Toad at the time and he just did a super job of just keeping everybody in their lane keeping that many lawyers in their own room in a case like herding cats It really is. And he did a remarkable job at doing that. And you know, it's funny sometimes the bigger cases are almost easier because there are so many eyes on it that it must be watched carefully. I always tell my people when I do train with them and whatnot, and teach is that little case in the corner that little nothing $6,000 cargo case that's just you don't pay attention to right that's the one that's going to bite you. Yeah, that's the one because he's not getting eyes at the top level yet. I mean, you get a disastrous event. You're getting the people that need to be looking at it. Not the people down here that Yeah, yeah, we'll deal with it. And I've been really fortunate throughout my career when I was in the Coast Guard at justice. I was the lead counsel on the Tampa Bay oil spill case, which was huge and kind of allowed me ultimately way down the road to find my way back to Tampa. And as my justice job got me around the country and got to know all the other defense lawyers and a lot of the plaintiffs' lawyers around the country in Admiralty so that the Coast Guard was just an absolute I know this is recruiting commentary for the Coast Guard Oh, no, no, it's just a bit but I like to look at it and I tell a lot of people your story just because I go listen in this is a kid truly at the crossroads that took advantage now don't get me wrong, Coast Guard got what 28 years out of here, whatever. So, it's not a matter of taking advantage like you won something from them. So pretty fair trade. But the fact that you were able to go undergraduate graduate law school, and then retire at a young age a fully commissioned lieutenant commander is an impressive story with a pension 100% Well, you know, the cool thing I didn't healthcare benefits, well, that's, you know, you don't really trust me when you're when you're 20. Right. You don't realize how important those health benefits are. When you write and premiums are made for my firm, you realize how important Me too, so it really is significant. And I was commenting the other day about how lucky I've been to be involved in certain things I was involved in now farro I have involved in most of the post open 90 big cases that came about after that legislation was written and passed. So, I did a whole bunch of oil spill stuff and then go off go figure once all this oil spill legislation was passed, and things were put in place that were much better than the Clean Water Act and that kind of stuff. The pollution incident stop course I'm speaking a little bit out of term because of what just happened. I was going to say, have you read what happened in California? Yeah, but it's I've been fortunate enough. I was talking to my partner, Jules, who I mentioned earlier. And I remember when I persuaded Jules 16 years ago to come to work when I left a large firm and formed my own firm with Jerry and open the Tampa office. I talked to Jules about coming with me. So he and I were having, I know you're going to find this hard to believe a beer a few months ago, and I said, Well since you said, it's singular. Yeah, I find it hard to believe. I said, I said, Jules, did you ever think when you accepted my offer to come to work with me, instead of taking the offer from the bigger firms because he had all kinds of opportunities? I said, did you ever think that you would have had the opportunity to be involved in the Alfaro? Did you ever think that you know, which is probably the single largest, you know, maritime disaster in the past 100 years, right? I said, did you think that you'd ever go to the Supreme Court of the United States, which we did, about almost 10 years ago now, I got to tell you sitting in that room, and with the nine justices on a table on the other side, is an impressive play, I would imagine. So, I never figured I'd be doing that. But those kinds of things. arcs are exciting, and I've had an opportunity to do those even in addition to just meeting a lot of the work that I do nowadays, as I get older is yachts. I do a lot of mega yacht and superyacht sales and transactions and forming corporations and doing that kind of stuff in the Caymans. That's exciting stuff because it gets to it takes me to places that are cool, I mean, I get to go to London a lot I get to go to Monaco I get to go to places where you know yachts are and that's fun. So, it's not just cargo, and personal injury and death and there's a lot of fun sexy stuff to it too. And that my practice fortunately I've been able to do all of that was talk a little bit about your firm Hamilton, Hamilton-Miller, and Birthisel. I know all you guys well. a ton of respect for the firm. Kind of talking about the formation of that and what you own. We've kind of talked about what you do, and I know Tampa is more specified to that. But what does the firm do in general? The firm is a general litigation firm. It didn't begin that way. Jerry, and Jen, Jerry Hamilton, and Jen Miller, my primary partners from Tampa, I mean, I'm sorry, from Miami. I met them when we were all at a another maritime firm back in the mid-90s. color and how, in Miami, I went my way, I was one of the first people to head to a different place for that firm when it was when I was breaking up. And Jerry ended up kind of staying with that until we formed Hamilton, Miller, and Birthisel. So back in September, I got word actually from Mark out from Colin out that that Jerry was going to be leaving and they were going to be doing something else. So, I called Jerry said, you know, we should get together and do something. So we did Jerry has traditionally, he's, first of all, just a great litigator, and a trial lawyer, and but he was doing a lot of cruise ship stuff because of the Miami right a lot of cruise ship stuff, a lot of Disney stuff, a lot of if you read about a case over in Jamaica, Jerry's Jamaican, if you read about a case over in the islands somewhere where something went horribly wrong, and there were people, you know, flying down a mountainside on a little train or something like that, Jerry was usually right in the middle of that not driving the train. Well, I met Jerry years ago, handling a cruise line case. And it was funny because somebody dug up the transcript of a deposition, we had found a captain or whatnot, and it had to be taken on a Saturday or whatnot. And let's just say Jerry, and I might have been a little contentious with a surprise during the scope of that deposition. But I got to know Jerry through that, and again, got to see and appreciate what a good litigation litigator he is, you know, and we went at it head to head and ultimately came to a resolution on it, but it was one of those, you walked away from where you're kind of like, I hate that guy. And then you go, but I really respected you know, that. And that's kind of in the relationship with with Jerry and, and and Jen. So that firm, thriving and doing very, very well, what he kind of looking back, and I know we're not at the end of this career by any stretch. But what do you look back that gives you great sense of satisfaction or pride when you look at what you've done as a lawyer. You know, I think that to be honest with you probably the most, the most satisfying work I did was in the Coast Guard getting kids out of trouble, right? When I was in the Coast Guard, doing that defense work because kids make mistakes they do. And I made a mistake or two and, and but for the forgiveness that was inherent in the system now or then, which may not be as inherent in the system. Now. I was allowed to continue on and have a very successful career. I think everybody deserves that opportunity. I had a kid that I got out of some real trouble. And I won't go into the details. But he was facing serious jail time. And I won his case. And it was a full-blown trial before a jury in Puerto Rico. I got a Christmas card from that kid for 10 years. Yeah, after that. And you know that those are the ones that are really the satisfying ones. I mean, I in fact, I think I mentioned this to you last night, what I would really like to do in the last 10 years. And of course, the problem with being my age is that 10 the last 10 years is creeping up on you pretty quick. But I'd like to spend the more generous, I'll just say you're on the back nine. I'll give you a whole my last night. I appreciate it. Because, you know, it's probably more like the perhaps the last quarter Yeah, well, I don't want to make this two more. But what I'd really like to be able to do and what I feel like I've since I've had such good opportunities and blessings, as I like to spend the last 10 years of my life working with some organizations like the Surfrider Foundation and people like that, to try and help clean up some of the plastics in the ocean. We got to that's something we got to do something about. And, you know, I have lots of clients out there that have probably, you know, been part of the prospect as the military, right dumping stuff at sea and, and I'd like to in the last part of my career be part of the solution. And that'd be my legacy, rather than just moving money from one side of the desk to the other. It is nice to see that that the world is sort of waking up to the fact that we can't just throw things in the ocean. Like that's not the dumping ground and it's while it covers two-thirds of the world, it's still limited to what we're at and it has a huge impact so they can't find they're not finding any fish that comes out of the ocean these days without microplastics in their, in their, in their gut somewhere and it's just, it's just horrible. We're killing we're killing our planet. Yes, we are slowly but guys, that's the only hug I'm going to do on the tree today. Guys, guys, like you hopefully can start to save that planet a little bit. But listen, I really enjoy spending time with you. This is always easy. We do this whether there's a camera or microphone or not anyway, but I appreciate you coming in childbirth, the cell again, one of the top maritime and Admiralty guys in the country. And I know that firsthand because I've watched it. And I've watched the ability of this guy to be able to pick up the phone and talk to guys with lots of stars on their shoulders, that a lot of people don't have that connection to and so been a pleasure. Hopefully, here's one we can sort of just take them off the list, you know, put them into the good guy category. And we won't kill all the lawyers. We'll save this one. I'm David Heffernan. We'll see you next week. Thanks, Dave.

Welcome back to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan, I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for nearly three decades. And the thought behind this show is that quoted Shakespeare line from the 15th century, which drew a lot of chuckles when it was issued, still rubs true today, sometimes you bring it up, and people have got their images of lawyers and whatnot. And so, the goal here is to talk to Donald has been local lawyers, we're going to have a little fun today we're branching out beyond South Florida. But to bring you a fantastic lawyer, a very good friend of mine, and probably just a better human being. But clearly, one we're going to be able to take off the kill list was all when all is said and done. Let me bring in Martin Rubenstein, who is the managing partner of Levy, Balldante Finney & Rubenstein in Philadelphia. Good morning, great catching up with you, brother, you know that it's, it's always fun. So, if this is an excuse to catch up, we're going to do it. So, let's talk a little bit about first just out of curiosity, you going to law school? What was behind that? Was this a family thing? Was this something you always wanted to do? What drew you into the law? So, I actually had always thought about the law. I think that my father who passed away last year had a gift of subtly delivering messages to his kids. And he did that with me. So, I'll give him a lot of credit for that. And then when I was in high school, I was at best a mediocre student, mainly, I just had an interest in other things. I think we all know about that stage of life. You know, on the preset. I was a senior, and I had a homeroom teacher, which means that's the person who just makes sure you're showing up, right? She was cut truthfully, she was kind of a floozy, everybody knew it, that that's the way she was. She came up to me one day in class and said, hey, guess what? You're on my speech and debate team. I said, really, like since when she said, since right now I just looked at your grades, you need it. So, she immediately you know, guilted and intimidated me. And the first thing that she asked me to do was to write a persuasive paper. This is 1974, okay. And it was about the Arab-Israeli conflict. She gave me a book, and she and this is on the heels of the Six-Day War from that lady. She gives me a book and she says, and by the way, you know, I'm Jewish, she says, you'll take the Arab side. And, you know, I really, like what are you kidding me, and she said, in her comment was the other side's too easy, you're going to take the Arab side, so kind of forced me to be an advocate for something, maybe I didn't believe it. And I really felt that was like a major moment for me, like, going through that. And I stayed with her. And I was not a particularly good speaker at that point in my life and she had me going to these speech tournaments, we'd have to speak for 15 minutes in front of these judges. So it was a wonderful experience, and coupled with my, you know, my father's not so subtle, you know, suggestions to me, that's kind of what led to it, I always want to, unlike you, Dave, and I know this about you, because you and I've done this together for 17 years, you and I always have tried to help those who need it. Usually, it's the end, it's always the individuals, it's the little guys, and, and taking on the bigger people has always just made it more fun, hotter percent, and we're going to leave into that. So. So you've been doing that taking on the big guy and representing that individual for close to 40 years in Philadelphia, and Mass Torts and nationwide. So, let's talk a little bit about your practice. Because I'd like to talk today about mass torts. And I know that's been a big emphasis, your practice is what draw it got you and I connected. And, and the beauty of that is, you know, you make these relationships through litigation, and then you look at, you know, 17 years or whatever it's been, you know, still very close friends. As a result of that, so, so let's go back a little bit, um, mass torts. A lot of people, you know, they think, Oh, well, it's class action. Well, it's a separate animal. So what is a mass tort? So basically, there are many situations that occur, where there's one particular problem or one particular defect or one particular type of behavior that injures 1000s and 1000s of people. I mean, just for current examples, a medication or a medical device that was just recalled two months ago, made by Philips called the C pap machines. Well, they recalled all these machines dating back 2009 particularly Models because they contain a certain plastic that can be carcinogenic. So, all these people who've been using it now we're now looking at their medical histories and realizing Well, I have some of that is that related? Well, there are 1000s and 1000s of people who purchased it. So, two things will happen. One is, many of those people will come and hire you or me or lawyers like us. And we represent those people individually. We are part of a mass tort, meaning there may be hundreds of lawyers around the country who represent these people. But each of these people has an individual lawyer. The class action, which is also taking place with Phillips is that a group of lawyers will try to take the lead and say, well, there's a lot of issues that will come up and every single one of these cases, we're going to take the lead and file a class action and ask the court to say that we can represent everybody in the country. So, there's somewhat of a conflict there, do these few lawyers get to represent everybody? Or do these other guys like Dave Heffernan and Marty Rubenstein get to represent everybody. And as it works out, there's usually a combination, we work together, there's benefits to the class action, and there's bet and there's the need for people to be represented individually attained at the supreme court does not like class action settlements, where people have been injured, because they worried that if they approve a class action settlement, and people continue to be injured, or the money will be gone, and later victims whenever we get, you know, never get compensated. Well, and that's, that's one of the criticisms I think that you hear, particularly with class actions. Because so many times there's class actions that are really lawyer driven. And at the end of the day, what you see is lawyers making a whole bunch of money, and the relief that goes to the quote unquote victims is a coupon or something here. So, you know, one of the things with mass torts and and you're, you're generally dealing with pretty significant injuries, okay. And, and you and I went back, and that's how we met. And there's a lot that goes on in Philadelphia, because you got a lot of pharmaceutical companies there. So, you got to you got to reach out and connect with a Philadelphia lawyer, which, which we did back then. And so let's just kind of talk about how that works from the pharmaceutical and how would a mass tort start? And how does that work out where, you know, again, lawyers can level the playing field because of one on one, if we want to take on, you know, a major pharmaceutical company, it's nearly impossible? Well, I think you have to start with two pieces. One is financial, the cost of litigating against pharmaceutical companies. And then second are that along with that are the resources to people. So just as an example, the last case that was tried, and I'll say round up, the legal cost of trying that case was not in the hundreds of 1000s of dollars, it was over a million dollars, right. And, as we both know, personal injury litigation, we represent people who've been injured, if it's a serious case, they're not working, they may have no income, they may have no assets. You know, though, when people are injured, it can be anybody from any walk of life. So lawyers like you and I, and our firms, we need to we need to finance those cases, we literally need to underwrite the substantial costs of it. Well, no matter how successful you know we are, we're not going to quite match up with the trillion dollar pharmaceutical company like not we're on our way but when hundreds of firms around the country a lie together, we share that common expense of putting the case together. And there's two levels to it. One is fake, you know, when there's a product that's been recalled off the market, we still have to prove what