Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan, I've been practicing personal injury law in South Florida for nearly three decades, actually over three decades now, which is sort of scary. The intent behind these podcasts is quite simple. There was a Shakespearean line back in the 15th century. It's been interpreted in a lot of different ways. But we know one thing, it drew a lot of laughter at the time when it was said, and a lot of people chuckle when you say it today. So the goal today, and in all these shows, is to bring in lawyers, and we're going to divert a little bit on that, and get to know him a little bit, find out what they do, and then kind of maybe one by one, take them off the kill list. The good thing is my guest this morning isn't directly on the kill list, because he's not a lawyer. But a lot of what he does is intricately tied with lawyers. And so, we're going to explore that today and have some fun talking about some really interesting things that are a byproduct of what happens in law. And my guest this morning is Felipe Blanco. Felipe, how are you? Good morning, David. It's great to be here with you. The title is definitely very attractive. Well, you know, it gets the people's attention. You know, there was I had some alternative titles that I'll go with you before. Felipe and I are actually also then going to do an endorsement for hair product for men, as an aside just to generate a little cash flow and on the broadcast, but, but we'll keep that minimal. Felipe, let's talk a little bit. Before we get into what you do, let's talk about you a little bit. Born in Cuba, you come to Miami when you're how old? I came, right before I turned five years old. Okay. Yeah, I grew up in Miami, went to a small private school. up basically, in those times, you went from basic kindergarten through eighth through 12th grade. And so I did that. And then I, I was at Florida International, when it was six buildings in a very small space. Clearly, something that's changed over the years…without a doubt my three children who actually work on my team as well, also went to Florida International. And when I visited the campus 20 years later, I was shocked by the amount of growth that the institution had. Yeah, I hadn't been out there in a while. And I went out for a memorial service. And I mean, it's, it's no, it used to be this sort of tiny, little commuter campus. And they've really, really done a nice job, of building that and building the reputation of that school. Let's talk a little bit you get into financial planning, you're the managing director and a financial advisor with RBC. Tell me sort of what gravitated to that what's, what's the appeal to finance. And then we'll talk a little bit about what you do there. And then we're going to merge that into what you do with lawyers. Sure. So I was always from a very young age, interested in finance, investments, mathematics, so on and so forth. So it was, you know, I was fortunate enough to have an incredible teacher during high school, that was that there was a was my math teacher, and she inspired me to really focus on numbers and that aspect of it. And then when I got to, when I got to FIU, I had decided that I want to be a finance major, but I also was blessed with meeting a professor that taught a number of investment courses and financial courses. And he befriended me and became a mentor for lack of a better term. And that created the passion around this business. So, I initially started in traditional banking, where I was doing consumer lending, corporate lending, so on and so forth. And then in the year 2000, when a lot of my clients that I had developed a relationship on the banking side, said, Look, we're at an age where we're monetizing our business and we're selling, you know, we trust you, why don't you? Why don't you help us on the financial side, so I transitioned to more of a wealth management role. Okay, let me apologize, my all my computer, and I have no idea how to link it from my phone, I turned my phone to silent, but I can't manage my computer. So, we're good. We know you're good with numbers, but maybe not on the technology side of things, right? Without a doubt. That's why you hire, hire people to do that. We're not going to talk about financial investments now, particularly given what's going on and makes things a little chaotic. And that's a whole different show. But years ago, and this is how you and I have met and everything else, but years ago, you started to sort of carve out a niche to start working with lawyers on cases where there are settlements for minors or settlements for people with special needs. And that money's got to get set aside and taken care of so how did that start to evolve it by Chance. When I joined, when I joined Mellon, they had they own a local bank called United National which was known as the lawyer's bank. But within that, within that space, they were a big lender, to personal injury attorneys. They were lending to the attorneys to finance their cases through pre-lit and lit until they monetize. As a result of that relationship, I started getting introduced to personal injury attorneys. And as a result, helping them initially just post-settlement on the, you know, post settlement or verdict on the management of the funds. And then subsequently, the role expanded to where I was working with them, even in the pre-litigation and litigation stage, and then helping them with financial analysis, and other factors. So, what started as an opportunity, then started developing more and more that for the last 20 years, that's been growing. And I can say right now, probably about 90 to 95% of my time is spent working with personal injury attorneys throughout the country, in one way, shape, or form, to help them and their clients during the different stages of their case. And then along the way. And my wife always tells me that I hit the jackpot in the sense that it's a business I'm very passionate about because I help families that have gone through tragedy. But also, I get to work with folks that have become my friends. So, I know that title is to kill lawyers, but it happenstance that I'd say that probably 95% of my friends are folks that I do business with, then at five o'clock change jacket, and then socialize with so I get to work with my friends in addition to helping families with, with, with that have suffered through a tragedy. So, you know, at least some of the ones we can take off the list, which is good to know. Right? Correct. All right. So, let's walk through that process. So and because I don't know that the general public understands that. But a lawyer, Pei lawyer, and we've worked on cases with this, but has somebody who suffers a devastating injury, okay. In order to then determine I mean, what people have to understand is, you got to get some kind of number to take care of those people. And so, lawyers work with life care planners who will put together a plan to say, these are the things because they're only going to get one day in court, these are the things this person is going to need to be able to be taken care of adequately and completely for the rest of their life. Here's where you sort of come in now. So okay, we figure out what that number is, you try to resolve the case, best you can or the verdict or settlement, then what happens to that money and what measures you're taking to protect to make sure that this person is protected, not only so that they've got funds, but also protected that those funds are adequate to take care of them. Yeah, I the first, the first step that you have to recognize, as a financial advisor that works with these types of cases as that this is one-time money. Unlike traditional wealth management, where you're dealing with high net worth individuals or professionals that have recurring income, you have to start with the premise is, hey, this is their one at-bat, and they're not going to get another at-bat, this money has to really be there for their ongoing care. So understanding that component, and then to really spending the time and working with their professionals, care managers, nursing staff, so on and so forth. So you understand, as best you can, what medical needs are unique to this person and their injury going forward. So that those are the first two steps that you initially take to understand where you are and where you're going. And then once you have an understanding around that is to build, you know, try to put together a portfolio that today is invested in such a way based on historical performance and, and, and, and, and, and other factors where you can invest it in the right way, in order to try to ensure that that money is there for when they need it on a going-forward basis. Understanding that trying to guess the medical needs of that person for the next 25 years is was a moving target. Because things can get worse things can get better new technologies, new procedures. So, you have to build enough flexibility within that within that structure to allow that. And then I think and I think that's where the whole team comes in. Because you've got to work with physicians, you've got to work with life care planners, you've got to, you know, best you can sort of take that crystal ball and say, Okay, this 19-year-old who has a devastating injury, brain injury, whatever it is, but they're going to live you know another 60 years. So how do we make sure that's all taken care of? And then I guess, you know, you've got to intertwine with that to say, Okay. And sometimes it's not 100% recovery, because you've got liability issues or there's, there are limits. So how do we maximize this money? And, and I think one of the things that are changed, and we'll talk about the court guardianship aspect, but where people like you have come in and made a difference. For the longest time, it was, well, let's just buy him an annuity. Okay. And that'll pay him out for 20 years. And, and, and courts like that, because courts are protecting this money. But you've been able to see that change and been very successful in showing courts. Wait a minute, that annuity, it's going to hurt him this amount over that, but there are much better ways to do it. So, talk about that kind of change in the practice? Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do less about the product of an annuity and a structure. And, and the old adage, wave, like you said, that the courts would think we want to create an annuity stream around this is that, hey, this is safe money, we can't we want to limit volatility, which is, it's the right concept of, of perceived risk. But the risk is more than that. Because with an annuity product, you're a victim, not so much of the product of where when the case settles, for example, since 2008, interest rates have been extremely low. So as a result, those annuities haven't created the kind of growth, that that would allow that money to grow substantially. And in the end, medical inflation during the last 20 years, for example, has gone up a little bit under 5%. So, there's an inflection point there. So, I think what's changed is the definition of risk where it used to be, hey, I want to make sure I limit volatility as that was the only risk factor. I think the courts, the attorneys, and even the structure settlement brokers have realized there are other risks, outliving your money is, is a huge risk. So low returns do affect the fact that with a fixed annuity payment if medical costs increase by that amount, the annuity payment isn't structured to grow at the same pace. So even if the means are stagnant, or mean or linear, then it gets to a point where the expense creates a problem in the future. So as a result of that, I think judges attorneys, and, and clients have said, maybe the right approach is to have not one solution to the problem is more of a combined strategy on what to deliver. So as a result, I work a lot with structure settlement brokers, right, right, where we analyze the situation, client per client, and we come together and say, given the particulars of this client, a combined approach in this way is the best approach. And I think that that works out well for all sides. And it really does. And you and I have done that in cases and you know, fortunate nice recovers, and now, you look at how well, the client is, is doing under the circumstances with that protection, and it affords you know, the family, the protection and everything else. I think one of the other things that people don't understand is, is the critical role. The courts play in this because somebody's got to safeguard this to say, no offense, but to financial planners or lawyers or, or families, which oftentimes, you see it's not money for them, you know, and so things have to be approved by the court. guardianships have to be opened annual filings. So, you've got I'm sure be involved in that. Make sure, hey, every year this is filed. So, some judges looking at this going. Okay, you know, this is good. We haven't seen a chunk of money disappear that wasn't supposed to, you know, disappear. So talk about your role than with the courts, sort of on the guardianship end of things. Yeah. So on the guardianship, exactly what you just mentioned, the courts are saying, I understand the need to have this money be protected, but at the same time grow for this either incapacitated person or this minor. So within that, and the statutes that govern guardianships, that, you know, it's although they don't tell you how to invest, it's governed by something called the prudent investor rule. So they leave it up to the fiduciary, but it should limit you to what you got to what we do. In other words, even if I like a certain stock, even if I like Apple, it's not that I would put 100% in one company, right? So you have to have a diversified type of portfolio. And, and, and, and have a disciplined approach to that. So they take care of the investment side of it, but they also, you know, engage institutions that are familiar with not only the court system and their obligations but that have the infrastructure to make sure that no distributions are done. without a court order, and that the accountings are done on time, and that there's a, a level of understanding and knowledge around how those instruments work and, and the limitations and restrictions that a guardianship provides. Alright, so we talked about setting up these Guardianships. And you, you bring up an interesting point, because one of the things I people may not understand, we talked about incapacitated people that have significant needs, but this system also in place, for any minor, that by law, just by being under the age of 18, is declared incapacitated, that if they get a case, and let's say automobile accident, they break their leg, there's a recovery, there may not be this long string of future medical needs, but that money has to be protected for that minor till they reach the age of majority. And, and then, you know, again, different products sometimes, because you don't necessarily want to work with parents, we don't want to give an 18-year-old chunk of money, so we can do things that say, okay, here for the first four years, sort of this, this could be designated as college money, and then maybe at 25, or 30, when they hit that age, so talk about how you deal with minors and the families on that, that isn't incapacity, but they have an injury, they're going to recover, but they're going to have some money. And, and that happens a lot. That happens a lot when even if minors that aren't incapacitated, they just received the funds because you know, their father or mother are no longer there through whatever, that still has to go into a restricted account. So, in, there's When, when, when dealing with that with those types of issues, there's a lot of consultation with the parents with the attorneys and the judges, because there's always a fine line, whereas, you know, it is money is awarded to the child, right. Now, if it was if that money is awarded, because of the loss of a parent, right then during their, their childhood up until they turn 18, you have to understand that that money also has to complement their living needs, because now there's only one parent to support and this money is there because to substitute the second parent from a financial point of view. So if that's the case, you have to make sure that during from age, whatever the settlement is to age 18, it's flexible enough that they get that kind of help. And then we get into the conversation around what happens at age 18. The guardianship typically will say that at age 18, the guardianship ceases and the child will receive the money. Right? That's obviously concerning to some parents and judges and some attorneys, right. And there's also and is also, you know, something to talk about, but at the same time, some judges also recognize, hey, He is an adult, he's capacitated. It's his money. So there has to be some balance around it. Right. So a lot of discussions have to go around, okay, how to structure it the right way that you meet both sides. So maybe you do guardianship for part of the funds that you know, he's going to get the funds, he or she gets the funds at age 18. But then, with a structured settlement, you can say, well, in addition, since we know he's getting a lump sum at 18, maybe we do the structured settlement where they pay another lump sum at 22 at 26 at 30. So that way, it allows him liquidity at age 18. But also, some protection if some bad financial decisions are made when they're young. So a lot of consultation again with attorneys, judges, The Guardian Ad Litem, and then the family. Okay, and you throw out guardian ad, litem and judges. So, let's talk about that role. Because again, I think it's interesting, the oversight that the judges have, because we as lawyers, will put this together, we'll get a settlement, we'll get people like you, we'll put a plan together. And then the courts going to say, Okay, we're going to appoint a lawyer that has nothing to do with this case. He's going to review or she's going to review everything. And then she's going to give a report and recommendation to me as the court, which I'll look at, and then I'm going to bring the lawyers in. And oftentimes people like you to say, Okay, what's the plan? And why is this in the best interest of this minor child or this incapacitated person? Yeah, and they play a critical role. Because, as you know, as we know, that we went when the cases are going on, and pre-settlement or verdict, there's a relationship that's built with the parents, and so on and so forth, or with the child. So you go into it, knowing the players, the fact that the court comes in and says, I want someone that doesn't have those relationships and potential biases, and look at it only as a representative of either the minor or the incapacitated person and say I want a second pair of eyes independent, to make sure that the proposed plan is the right thing. For, for that individual. So they play an integral part, they do also a great job of speaking to the family speaking to the financial advisor, speaking to the attorneys to make sure that what was your thinking when you propose this plan? And then there's a lot of dialogue on whether, hey, this makes sense. This doesn't make sense. Maybe we should tweak it here or not change it at all. And I think that that dialogue, and for all of our sakes, the attorneys, the family, and the financial advisor, I think it's a, it's a, it's a good way to have a fresh pair of eyes come in and say, Hey, I concur with your thinking, or maybe you forgot this. And I think I think they played a critical job of critical role in the process. Well, and it's an important role. And I mean, I'm fortunate enough, you know, I frequently will get that call from certain judges to say, Hey, I'm going to appoint you as a guardian ad litem on this, you know, and that's a critical role because you're looking at that. And now you're another member of this team, to say, how are we making sure that everything is monetized, maximized? And protected? For the best interest of this child? And again, you know, yeah, you could lock it in a savings account, then give it to them, you know, but that's not to the best benefit of the minor or the incapacitated person. So it's, it's an interesting, dynamic with a lot of moving parts involved. Yes. Alright. So talk about these, where they get monies and everything else, but now there's an intricate balance of wanting to maximize to make sure they retain benefits that they're entitled to. So what's done then to make sure, you know, if they're on Medicaid, because of this incapacitated, or getting other governmental benefits, what can be done to say, Well, wait a minute, now they have money, are they going to lose this benefit? And how do you balance those two? Yeah, and part of the role of my team and the advisors at the time is to that in the analysis of how much money do we need to take care of this person going forward, we try as much as possible to analyze not only what they have, but what they could have if they don't have it yet. And we look at what's called collateral sources. Collateral sources could be Medicare, could be Medicaid, or any of those, those programs. So we, we look at them, and we say, okay if they don't have it, this is what we're going to do. And if they do have it, this is how we're going to protect it. Some, collateral, I mean, collateral benefits do not affect the settlement or are affected by the settlement somewhere. For example, in the case of giving us an example, that's typically the one that comes up the most is Medicaid, Medicaid, or section eight, or any government housing that's needs-based, right? Well, typically, you know, those programs are exactly what they are needs-based. So if you would take and they have income limits and asset limits, if you take a certain amount of assets, it might be a disqualifying event, where it might be, you know, given that their medical conditions might be a severe change to what they have. So we tried to incorporate a strategy to say, let's try to maintain these collateral benefits, and still manage the money because it makes the money last longer. And there are certain vehicles that we can do that with, for example, one of the ones you mentioned early, what's it with special needs trust, right? In a special needs trust is a widely used mechanism that allows the settlement recipient, even though they're receiving a large number of assets, that would normally be a disqualifying event, it, it allows it to be not considered a countable asset, against their, against the needs-based program, and allow that person to continue with their nursing care and their and their medical care. And the vehicle then allows them to maintain that and upon God forbid, they're, they're passing the trust at that point would have to pay Medicaid back first, whatever they paid, and then the remainder goes to the to their heirs. Okay, which is hugely important, because, again, if you lose those benefits, I mean, most settlements are going to have enough money to cover all of that when you get into some of those things, some of the nursing care, home health care, things like that, you want to maximize. And so, again, it takes this sort of entire team approach to you know, hard enough to get the money and litigate that everything else. But when you do that team approach, and I think it's so important, you know, when you talk to lawyers who do this type of work, like myself, and my partner is not only the quality of the lawyer, who are the people they surround themselves with, who are the people that they use, if it's going to be this case of this nature, because it's not just getting the money's one thing, but if that's for the remainder of somebody's life, there's a lot of work to be done to get there. Right. Right. And, and, and, again, those are all moving parts and things that have to be considered, you know, and then once that is established, The then the monitoring, that's why the institution or whoever the team is, is important because how you distribute can also be a disqualifying event. So if you're going to pay for some expenses or distribute monies, you have to make sure that whatever you're giving doesn't trigger,, an increase in income, that might just be a disqualifying event, or that might let money accumulate outside of the trust, that would also be a disqualifying event. So there's a lot of ongoing dialogue and analysis after the settlement. And after that, the account is established, where we have to take into account to make sure we do it right. Well, and it also you get into other cases, now with older people and Medicare, and now you've got to do what is called Medicare set-asides. Because of your recovering future medical benefits, you want to make sure you're not jeopardizing that person's ability to receive Medicare. So and that's probably a whole other topic for a whole other show. It's becoming, it's becoming more and more prevalent in the analysis, because, you know, more as more people as we have an elderly population, and they get older, Medicare stuff starts coming to the analysis as well. So, what makes you passionate about all this, I mean, you've carved this niche out, you, you've gotten into this community of lawyers, again, how you and I met and have had success on that and others, but what, what makes you passionate about it? You know, and I thought long and hard. And I know this is a kill the lawyer show, I'm going to, I'm going to give props to, to the attorneys in two ways, and then I'll get it to answer your question. One is, you know, the respect I have, that, that you, the attorneys, like, you stand up for those that can't stand up for themselves, you know, and, and you, you give everyone an opportunity within the civil justice system to have their day in court. So that's something that I admire all the time. So, the fact that I can be a part of that process is, is extremely rewarding. But the bigger part is, is that I because I manage these clients going forward, I get to determine two things. Alright, see two things, one, the change in their lives, that we can do, that we're there, you know, in their most difficult times going forward, you know, my team and I will get phone calls, at 10 o'clock on a Sunday or nine o'clock, hey, my air conditioning broke, my, this isn't working. And we have a team of people that we can talk to, to go immediately to fix air conditioning, and then fix appliances and stuff like that. So that kind of instant feedback of getting some getting a thank you from somebody that was at a very tough place that you helped them out during its constant affirmation that we're doing the right thing. And I also get the ability to think through unfortunately, my children in my other team members get to see is how would they be if the settlement wasn't there? How would their life be if that wasn't there, the fact that I can be a part of that process, right is hugely rewarding. You get sometimes, you know when you're dealing in traditional wealth management, where you're dealing with CEOs, or you know, you don't get that that instant gratification, it's about returns, and about maximizing returns in this at the other here. It's real-life differences. It's someone that needs a generator that needs things like that. So you get it's basically a thank you that is deep-felt on their end, and I can't think of a more rewarding part of my job. So that's what makes me passionate about it. The more I do it, the more I want to do. Well, well, well stated my friend, always a pleasure. I enjoy working with you and look forward to many more years of that. And while he's not a lawyer, we'll keep him off the list. Even though it's closely associated with lawyers. I think we can take you off the kill list. I stayed on Holiday Inn Express, I stayed. Alright, my friend, I really appreciate it. Felipe Blanco has great insight on some interesting stuff. I appreciate the opportunity. You got it. All right. That's going to wrap this one up. We'll see you next week.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan. I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for a little over three decades, hard to admit that. And the goal behind this podcast was simple. You know that that line uttered back in the 15th century by Dick the Butcher, lawyers love to argue, oh, that was flattering of lawyers. But the bottom line is people laughed, okay. And people still laugh when they hear it today because people think it's not a bad idea. So, the goal here is kind of one by one. Let's bring some people in. Let's introduce you to some South Florida lawyers get to know him a little bit, what they do varying aspects of law, and maybe one by one, we can kind of take them off the kill list. My guest this morning, checks a lot of boxes for me. First off, a phenomenal, phenomenal trial lawyer. Been doing this just about as long as I have. But good friend, a fellow member of the Orange Bowl committee, and kind of all around good guy. So Kevin, welcome. Hey, good morning. Thank you, Dave. I am not sure I should get all his accolades, but I'll take them especially from somebody like you. I appreciate it. So Kevin is located in South Florida and has gone over to the West Coast. Kevin's over in Naples and the partner Wicker Smith and Kevin, I looked at it. I mean, Wicker Smith's been around a long time, we've seen lots of things change in the landscape of South Florida, and a lot of firms come and go and a lot of the stalwarts when you and I first started practicing, they're not there anymore. Still hectares and things like that. Wicker Smith's been around a long time and done well. So talk a little bit about wicker Smith. Well, sure, I'm happy to you know, wicker Smith is as you know, started as a kind of an old-time Miami firm with a couple of guys I just wicker, and James Smith. And I don't think they could have possibly imagined that their little law firm would grow into this nearly 300 Lawyer law firm that we have that has actually branched outside of even South Florida and Florida. You know, we have 11 offices in the state of Florida. We also have offices in Georgia, we just opened up Atlanta, but we've had one in South Georgia for a few years. We have an office in Nashville, Tennessee, and we have an office all the way out in Phoenix, Arizona for some unexplainable reason. Now, we have a terrific partner out there. And, and we just sort of grown. And the interesting thing about wicker Smith's growth is that we grow what we call organically. In other words, you know, some firms will go into a town and they'll go look for a lawyer or a particular type of practice to buy or to purchase, or to merge with wicker Smith's growth has been more organic, meaning that we would have somebody who was a wicker Smith lawyer, move to a different town and open it up, because that person knew how wicker Smith ran their office and ran the shop. And that's what I did, right? You know, I'm a Miami guy, as you know, I worked in the Miami office for a few years. And we got a call from a client over on the west coast that said, hey, the firm that used to represent us is actually decided to go be plaintiffs law firms. And so, they're not going to defend our hospitals and doctors anymore. And would you guys do that? And so, they, Tom Graham, who was one of our senior partners at the time, was kind of winding his career down and said, Yeah, I'll go to Naples, which I think was where everybody goes, when they wind their career down. And he opened this office up, and about six months later, he had more work than he could do. And some of the senior guys came to me and said, Hey, would you consider going to Naples, Tom is going to retire in the next few years. And we'd like to build an office over there. So that's what I did. And it was a blessing. It was a challenge. It was a sacrifice, because I you know, I was a Miami kid. I grew up there. I had family, as you know, in the health care world, my dad, and I had some pretty good connections. But this was an opportunity that even to me, I could tell this was a super chance. And I've been blessed that it's worked out as well as, as well as it has. And we've sort of done that around the state opening up different offices where mostly it's a lawyer that started in one and transitioned up and opened up an office for us. So that's kind of how wicker has grown. And we've been really fortunate. We are going to talk about your practice in a minute. But you know, in looking at the BIOS and going over this, I'm scanning things and I'm like, looking at all the offices and I go, wait, they have an office at Palmetto Bay, in the village of Palmetto Bay, which I live in. So I was surprised to see that pleasant to see at the old Burger King headquarters. I guess you guys have taken some space in there. It's just good to know because when I'm going to run for village idiot, which I plan to do at some point, I know I can have the backing of wicker Smith now that they're in Palmetto Bay. Absolutely. We can round up some votes for you for that. All right, well, let's go back a little bit. You are Miami guys, as you said. So, tell me a little bit. I know you're a noble. What is it that prompted you then to get into law? Was that something you always wanted to do? Or what sort of drove you to law school and, and the practice of law? So yeah, I did. I graduated from Florida State. I didn't know much about the school until I started looking around. Yep, I wanted to play sports. So that was kind of that was part of my drive. I got some really good advice, David, about my junior year, I started thinking I really want to go to law school. I think that's what I want to do. I used to play tennis on Saturday afternoons and mornings with my dad and a group of mostly his friends. But you know, looking back on it, it was quite a collection of the who's who, in Miami. You know, we had federal appellate court judges like judge Pete Fay that would play tennis with us every Saturday and I go have lunch with them and write nothing I knew him as Judge Bay. And that was the nice source to get some information from as to what the whole thing is about very well respected. There were a number of lawyers that also played in that group. One guy that in particular that sticks out is a former divorce lawyer. He's now passed away Ed Vining, who was a good friend of mine, and he was a terrific storyteller, as many trial lawyers are. And he used to just regale us at lunch. We used to go to this place called villain Ted. I'm sure you remember Bill Clinton, I know it. Well. There are things I don't remember for Bill and Ted's but I do know Well, exactly. So, we'd sit there, and advising would regale us with these. Now, I realize maybe some fantastical stories about how he would try this great cause. And he would make this judge cry on the bench. And I'm sure that never happened. But either way, they were just fascinating stories. And I thought, Well, I think maybe I would like to do that. I'd like to be a lawyer. So, I started talking about that with my dad, in my junior year. And my dad gave me some really good advice at that time. He said, Look, it's a good profession. I think you would do great, but I'm going to give you the advice to take a year off before you go to law school after you graduate. And he said, Go do something, right. Because I'm not you can't just lay around, I'm not going to support you but go work. You know, go to Europe and travel and work your way around and maybe go to Colorado and work a ski season. And what jumped out to me as I had a buddy of mine and I went to high school with whose father sold all of the catering to the cruise ship industry. And so he had sold this company to Royal Caribbean. I reached out to his son who I knew and I said hey, Lou, is there anything fun to do on a cruise ship? I'd never even been on a cruise ship, right? Oh, yeah. You want to be an assistant cruise director. I was like, Okay, that sounds fun. So, David, I took my dad's advice. I took a year off between undergrad and law school and I signed up and worked as an assistant cruise director for the Royal Caribbean cruise line. And it was a terrific year I cruised three and four-day cruises to the Bahamas. And then I did seven-day cruises to the Eastern Caribbean. And then seven-day cruises to the Western Caribbean, I met people from all over the world who still have friends to this day of people that I met working on a cruise ship. So that was sort of a nice detour. But it was really good advice to sort of getaway because you know, once you go to law school, and you get out, you know, you're on the wheel, right? You can't, there's no year to take off, especially right out of law school. So it was a great time, it was a good break for me. And then I went to law school, which I had to I deferred my acceptance a year. And the rest is sort of as we say legal history. Alright, the only question I have then is so let me get this right. You're an assistant cruise director. You're hanging out on cruise ships with beautiful young women and men and everything else. You've got drink tickets at your access to give them out to entertain and you came back and went to law school like I'm sorry. Why are you not a cruise director today? Okay, I can I can understand the question about that I get asked that a lot. I will tell you to know it's an interesting life to literally just pick up and live on a cruise ship for years what I did because I You're never off right so and as a cruise assistant cruise director you know I was Julie from The Love Boat right and it's really the service industry and so anytime that you were out of your cabin, you were in an I was in sort of a polo shirt and shorts or slacks and I but I was on the right because people were always coming up to ask me what to do or where to go or I was hosting games you know I used to run bingo and eat shooting off the back of the ship was kind of fun and I would call these gambling horse races and then, believe it or not, we did song and dance gets that. You know they were crazy. enough to teach me and put me up there. And so, it was a lot of fun. But it was your whole life, right? I mean, I literally didn't see my friends as I came home, maybe once a month when the boat would port, you know if I had a few hours off, I could run over or my parents could come to see me and my brother. So, I mean, it was sort of an all-encompassing life. And yeah, but there were days when I was sitting in contracts class, my first year on a Thursday when I Oh, yeah, well, right now that boat is cruising by Cuba on its way to make that what am I doing, I'm just making a quick note, I want to reach out to your dad and your brother to find those videos, just because I think we could get some mileage out of I get you doing songs and dances. Matter of fact, the next time we have a case together, might pop up at mediation, it's just a chance as leverage. Alright, so let's talk about your Curcas. Because you've done very well, you certainly didn't go to wind down a career on the West Coast, you went over to Naples. And now, in essence, I think, control a large portion of all of the defense work for physicians and hospitals. And you've done very, very nicely in getting networked within that. But I want to talk about there's a couple of aspects to your career. One, I know you do litigation because obviously you and I have gone head to head and I'm sure we'll go head to head again. But I know you do a lot of administrative and stuff on the licensing of things and everything else with physicians. So talk about the administrative portion, because I don't think people think about that much. Yeah, it's good, it's a good question. And it really is a critical aspect to a profession, you know, we're licensed and we are regulated by the bar, in the same way that we're regulated by the bar, the doctors and healthcare providers are regulated by the Department of Health. And then the different boards that they have, like the Board of Medicine at the Board of Nursing. And when I got to law school, did the first job that I really took was as a hired as a prosecuting attorney for what was then the Agency for Healthcare Administration, it was all one agency. And at the time, aka as it's called, regulated both hospitals and practitioners, and a lot and Chiles or governor created the Department of Health and they moved all the regulatory of practitioners over to the Department of Health, and the regulatory aspects of hospitals remained with aka. So, I worked with Aqua for a year and a year, and they split it and I was given the choice to go one way or the other. So I went with the Department of Health and I prosecuted doctors and nurses for that year. And what I think a lot of people maybe don't realize is that you know, you and I maybe have these massive mid-mount cases where you know, the risks are big for everybody. But the damages are, you know, oftentimes catastrophic, and people are looking for millions of dollars. But the risk on the regulatory side is the loss of a license short and loss of the ability to earn an income, right? If a doctor has a med mal case against them, and they lose their insurance carrier, they end up paying monies, okay, but they go on with their career, right? If you get a license, if you get your ticket pulled, so to speak, you've lost the ability to earn a living. So they are really important, significant cases. And that's what I did for a couple of years. So then when, I got hired into the private sector, first at a law firm called Stephens limb where I was for a couple of years. And then my partner Oscar Cabaniss. And I came over to wicker defending doctors and hospitals. It was a real boost to me because I knew that world and not a lot of lawyers that do medical malpractice, defense work, knew the regulatory stuff, certainly not having been behind the scenes, like I was, you know, like a state attorney had been for criminal This was essential that for medical malpractice. So it was, it was a really good opportunity was a good experience for me. And I tried a bunch of cases, you know, administrative cases, it was everything but a jury. So, you know, I had no idea what I was doing. And I learned and watched and like all of us, but it was great. By the time I became a defense lawyer a couple of years later, you know, I tried 30 or 40 administrative trials, and some big ones. I mean, I took licenses from people I didn't the board did, but there were some very, very serious bad actors. A very small number, obviously, you know, it's, it's like any profession, most of our lawyers, believe it or not, are terrific people and go into the profession for all the right reasons. I believe that about doctors as well. You know, that the old adage is there, they're going into it for money. There are a lot easier ways to make money these days than then going to medical school and being a doctor if you can, as you know, right. But, you know, occasionally there's a bad actor and the board is pretty tough and pretty serious about trying to keep those people out of it. So That was a good, good experience. And I still to this day, I represent a lot of healthcare providers and facilities, hospitals, nursing homes, ALS, that kind of thing, in their regulatory issues dealing with aka and the Department Health. Yeah, I just think that gives you sort of a solid basis that we don't see. I mean, you know, I teach the law school, the trial program, and I think the difficulty now, for young lawyers coming out, is getting any type of courtroom experience. So again, whether it's admin or not, you're on your feet, you're on a judge that, you know, in front of a judge, there's going to be an outcome. I mean, that experience is invaluable. And then I think prosecuting on that, and to then switch over and now defend has to be an interesting transition. Yeah, I think that was kind of always my goal. You know, when I, when I got into it, as you know, young, my dad was a hospital CEO in South Florida for you know, his career. Right. And, you know, so I, once I got into law, and I started thinking about, you know, what I wanted to do, I knew I wanted to litigate, right, I like that I was enough of a ham, but I was an assistant cruise director, so I wasn't up to talk to people. And I gravitated very much towards litigation in law school to my clerkships during and whatnot. So I think I always had the goal of going back and defending hospitals. This was sort of just a good jumping-off point for that. But it really did give me a good perspective. And I think, you know, you and I both know, we have friends on both sides of the aisle, quite, quite frankly, you know, some of my closest friends, you being one of them, are plaintiff's lawyers. I think we all anybody who does this long enough begins to appreciate there are good plaintiffs cases, and there are good defense cases. Sure. And there's a lot better in the middle. Well, the same thing is with from the regulatory side, right there were doctors that absolutely should have been prosecuted and ought to have some discipline. And there were many that don't ever wind up doing that or need that same thing. During the transition to the defense side, I see the vast majority of cases that I see our doctors trying their best to do a good job. And we have an unfortunate outcome. Sometimes it's a doctor's fault. It is. And sometimes it's not, it's the inexorable process of whatever disease they had. Or it simply is a known complication, as you hear all the time. I mean, things happen every day to people, whether it's in a hospital or driving down the road, that isn't always somebody's fault. Sometimes it is, but not all the time. So I will tell you that the one real aspect that I love about what I do, right, and I gotta tell you, I mean, you and I know tons of lawyers, and I don't know how many enjoy it the way that you and I do I know you have a real, I think the word is a passion for it and, and it shows you're a terrific trial lawyer. And we know the people that have that passion. And we know, we know, some of the dumps, right? I feel like I have that, that passion for representing healthcare providers. And I think it begins and ends David with the fact that my belief is these people wake up every day, to go to work to help people. I get to wake up every day to go to work to represent people who go to work every day to help people. And so I still think that that's a terrific calling. So I really enjoy and I'm passionate about the opportunity to represent those people that have had that calling. Well, and you do it well. And your reputation stands out there for a reason. Okay. And I think you've pegged it, you know because I was going to ask you, you know, what, what still makes you passionate. We've done it a long time. I think we see a lot of people in this profession. burnouts, probably too strong a phrase, but you know, they're, they're kind of done with it all, they still work hard, they represent their clients. But a lot of times you're going more through the motions than then really pushing things, but I think, you know, you just exemplified the passion you have for this work. And you know, you see it and unfortunately, I see it when I'm on the other side of you because I know you're going to, you know, we're, everybody's going to go through the paces at the top level. And again, on both sides of this, we're problem solvers. Somebody comes to us with a problem. And the question is, and look, be easy if it was black and white. And we could plug-in algorithms and say, here's the outcome doesn't work that way. There's, you know, more than varying shades of gray. And that's why there are all of these disputes, because the ones that are blatant, one way or the other, either just blatantly a bad plaintiff's case or bad defense case. Those generally get taken care of pretty early because lawyers on both sides look at it and go, Yeah, this is what we got to do on this and take care of it. But so let's talk about the medical field a little bit only with COVID, which Just seems to linger on longer than we think and the impact that's had but talk about how that's impacted the practice of what you've done. We've talked about it over here. I think the Miami Dade County judges, our judges have done a really good job of continuing to try to push and adapt to whatever they've had to adapt to, to keep the justice system moving. So talk about the west coast a little bit. I know, I know, the Naples judges have been all on this. And you know, again, case management and moving cases. But how did it impact your practice? Well, yeah, so obviously, it's impacted our practice in our lives. And basically, what we do almost every day, right, I mean, we're doing this by, you know, video conference, or zoom, or, you know, what have you. We've had to learn to evolve into working that way. And I think it's not, I think it's here to stay whether, you know, hopefully, COVID resolves, and it's in the near future. But I think some of the changes that we have evolved into, I think, are probably here to stay for a while, the west coast of Florida, I think, has taken a slightly different approach to it than the East Coast. And you know, quite frankly, we've been back trying cases now, for more than a year, right. You know, we've had some, I'll call it maybe soft openings of the courthouses, and then they were wide open, and then they would narrow back a little bit, but I think the West Coast, especially southwest Florida, so that's our 20th circuit, right. So that's calling your county, Lee County, Charlotte County, and Sarasota County, they have, pretty much we're the first ones to jump back in after COVID and have live courtroom proceedings and have trials. So we, you know, we started back with trials where everybody was wearing masks, with, you know, sort of lots of precautions in place and bringing jurors in one at a time. And that evolved into bringing more jurors in at once. And then the mask mandates went away. And I think we were sort of the first ones, we were the line leader, at least in Florida, have a lot of that. And you know, a lot of that credit, quite frankly, goes to our judges that we do have a really terrific judiciary over here. And they were, they were motivated and interested in making sure that the people who wanted their day in court, whether it was the plaintiff or the defense, that they were getting that opportunity, and you know, you know, as well as anybody, that's what, that's what drives a lot of this case, that's you know, got to have that to move the case. So, yeah, obviously, the changes that we've all seen, with a lot more remote access and remote working, that that was an evolution for us. Because, you know, I can tell you as a firm, you know, quite frankly, we were not really set up to accommodate remote working, you know, when we had to right, right, you know, we have remote access, obviously, but it was fairly limited. And not a lot of people utilize that back then. Back then two years ago. Right. seems longer. It does longer, but we you know, we very quickly adapted and, you know, I think we were navigating through uncertain times, because, you know, from our side, we were concerned are the cases going to continue to come in, are we going to be able to do the work at, especially at the level that, you know, wicker Smith requires and demands and holds themselves out to do that. And, you know, we learned, we learned very quickly, the people are folks, and I think, broader than just our firm, but the especially the young lawyers, were very capable of working and did do terrific jobs, working remotely, you know, a lot of the young lawyers 10 years and younger, when they went to law school, he was sitting on their beds with a laptop, you know, typing their briefs and doing the research. So working in that setting, as opposed to you know, going to the library or, or having an office to go to or a meeting room to collaborate kind of like what we used to try to do. They were perfectly comfortable sitting in a remote area and doing the work and getting it all done. So, fortunately, I think what we saw was that that translated into, into the young lawyers, and even the older lawyers like us, our ability to work from home and do that. You know, one of the aspects that we sort of did discover and this is that we do feel like our youngest lawyers, and our senior-most lawyers, we're probably better off having that group in the offices, at least to some degree because the younger lawyers are going to it can be a revolving door in and out of my office and you know, managing Office managing partners offices, and they do need that direction. I know I needed it when I was you know the lawyers that are senior attorneys, senior associates, and junior partners, whatnot that don't need the day-to-day, as much day-to-day help. Are terrific working from home and we have some that are, you know, that is there permanently for a variety of reasons or whatnot. But I think we've really seen that people can adapt right and accommodate to what obstacles get put in front of them. We've done that as a firm, you see it as a society. So, you know, I'm encouraged about where we're going to go with some of the changes that have been made, I think the three day trip out to California to take an expert, probably winding down, you know because you can't get over and back in a day and whatnot, that that deposition can now really effectively be taken remotely and on Zoom, and it's a cost-saving to the client. I don't think there's there's some aspect and dynamic that's lost when it's not in person. So I still try to do in-person depots of key witnesses. But, you know, there's not a need to run out across the country for every single witness anymore. Like, like we used to have to do. It's, there's not a need, except it was really nice, because that was a time you could grab a nice dinner with opposing counsel, you know, and make that trip. And I think I agree with everything you've said. I think the one component that gets kind of lost in that, though, is the camaraderie among lawyers, not only within their own firms. Okay. And, and I know for me sometimes, and we're a small firm, but you know, just verbalizing things with Mark and going over things. One, either he comes up with an angle that I didn't think, or sometimes I just verbalize it, come up with an angle. And the other aspect that I think is missed, although I agree with you haven't motion practice, and everything via Zoom is so more efficient. But it might be running into that opposing counsel at the courthouse and grabbing, you know, accorded detail afterward outside and, and I think things move sometimes because of those dynamics, and they're just going to be missed, you know, we've got to pivot and figure it out. But I missed some of that aspect and hope to some degree that returns. Oh, for sure. I mean, you know, look, people used to talk about cases got settled, after the hearing from the walk out of the courtroom to the car because you write the opposing counsel, or, you know what, when you and I litigate against each other, we had depositions out of the state, we, we went to Ohio, we took depositions of one expert, we had, I don't know a couple of our drive to take a deposition of another expert. And you and I shared a real car, and we were friends anyway, we would have done that. But that's I would have done that with a lot of opposing counsel. Sure. And, and I do think you're 100%. Right. You know, one of the benefits that your clients get and my clients get is the ability to develop relationships across the aisle, because it's like anything, quite frankly, I feel like I am much more effective for my clients, if I have a good working relationship with my opposing counsel, as opposed to the, you know, some people want to just draw swords from the binding, and don't want to try to work cooperatively, whatnot, I think part of our job is to, is to bridge that gap, you know, clearly, our clients have this divergent view of what happened and we're never going to convince them right, I'm not going to convince your client that my client is right, and vice versa. But you know, by being advocates that are not personally involved in the event that we're advocating for, it does give us that opportunity, to come at it from a little bit more neutral space. And I couldn't agree more that the opportunity to have a one on one time or, you know, develop relationships and friendships is critical to our practice. And I do hope that I think that will continue, obviously, but I certainly do agree that's part of that has been lost with this. Alright, well, we could talk about this for a long, long time. And I'm sure we will over other conversations and through Orange Bowl functions or just seeing you here in town or, or whatnot, but appreciate it. Always fun catching up and spending time. Hopefully, we we've taken this defense lawyer even though as a defense lawyer, you know, where's the black hat? We wear white hats. Just kidding. But sort of taken that to show that you know here's another guy, I think we can safely take off the kill list. Wow, that's terrific. I appreciate that. Bless that you have me on here and happy to do it. David. Look forward to Kevin. All right. That's another episode of First off let's kill all the lawyers.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan and I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for nearly three decades. And the goal behind this show and we get a lot of feedback, it's a Shakespeare quote, that he meant it as a compliment. It might have meant it as a compliment, but people laughed when that line was uttered back in the 15th century. And there are people that today still think killing all the lawyers, maybe not be a bad idea. So, goal behind this podcast is to bring in other local in South Florida. And actually, we've had people out of state international lawyers to kind of introduce them to the community find out about what they do, and maybe one by one, we'll take a few of them off the kill list. My guest this morning is a friend, a classmate, we were reminiscing unfortunate goes back further than we'd like to recall. And my goal is to get them off the kill list. But I might have a hard time because I've got an issue because apparently Gary hasn't aged in the 30 years since we went to law school, my guest, Gary Mars, looking great, my friend. Welcome to the show. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. All right. So let's, let's talk a little bit just sort of general background, what is it that got you and then we're going to get into? You know, you've been in a very specialized practice for the last 30 years. But what got you into law school? What was it always a desire to be a lawyer? Was it you know, I wasn't sure what I was going to do, or where did it? Where did it start? Yeah, there are those that are, I think, are those of us who there that is a bit freaky. So, I've always been prime, pretty much designed to be a lawyer. So, I went to Emory undergrad, which is, you know, pretty much a pre professional school. So, everybody was in med, everyone's going to medical school, right about three or four of us on my dorm floor that were going in a different direction. They all ended up half of them probably went into the business school from there, and a few went into law school dribble went into actual loads of medicine, but I was always on a track to be a lawyer, just kind of how I'm wired. So that was kind of a given. But yeah, so by ology, I guess I could say, you've done something that's a little unique and you look at and you know, we're kind of blessed and partner with Mark care, one of our classmates and, you know, we've got a group of people from that long ago that still stay in touch. And it's a nice network of friends to have. But you've done something unique, and that, that you went to a firm coming out of law school, Siegfried Rivera, and you've stayed there, you're a shareholder there, and you've carved out a phenomenal practice there. Talk about sort of that first transition, because oftentimes, lawyers go somewhere, they get their feet wet, they learn a little they go, but you've dug in and build yourself a phenomenal practice at a great firm been around for 40 plus years. But talk about how you went up there. And let's talk about how your practice developed. So, I actually, if you remember, when, when we came out of law school, there was a kind of a little bit of a glut in the market. At that point. I really like bankruptcy. I really was intrigued by the whole, you know, setting up the bankruptcy plans and working through that I thought I was, you know, that was my area. But there weren't a lot of jobs. There were a lot of people lateral laying around at that point, because it was a really bad job market. So, while there was a good job market for laterals, not as good for people coming out, right, right. So, you have to meet you. And you know, the good news with the University of Miami and I guess most law schools are doing it now. You know, we had a really good development

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. This is the 2022 version, which, frankly, feels a lot like 2021. I'm not sure what has changed. One thing that hasn't changed is the reason we do this show. I'm David Heffernan, I've been practicing personal injury law in South Florida for about 30 years now. The goal behind the show as it was uttered in the 15th century by Shakespeare, yes, we can all be open to interpretation. But bottom line is people laughed. And some people still feel like it's a good idea to kill all the lawyers. My goal is to bring in local South Florida lawyers and lawyers from all around actually, and maybe one by one, educate people on what they do who they are. We have realized the quality of the lawyers that we've got in this community and one by one, we can take them off to the kill list. My guest this morning is going to be easy to take off kill list is because not only is he a great lawyer, and we're going to talk about that in a minute. But he's one of the most active people I know in the community, Florida Bar, a guy who really gives something back. Roland Sanchez from Medina. Raleigh, welcome, my friend. Thank you, David. I said, once again, I apologize for all the technical issues, man. Like, like I said, 2022, much like 2021. We just we just deal with it, we pivot and we roll. So let's start with you. Let's start with law school. Why did you go to law school? What was what was the driving? Was it a goal to be a lawyer? What did you want to do? Well, you know, it's interesting, we have a typical immigrant story. As an immigrant, the first thing comes to mind is to feed your family, you know, and there's certain professions in the, in the Cuban culture, that, you know, are sort of tried and true ways of, you know, feeding for your feeding your family, right, you're a calling doctor, doctors, lawyers, and that was sort of I was ushered in that way. And then, by the time I finished University of Miami like you did, it just seemed to be the natural course. And the natural next step for me, in terms of vocation, and the vocation you were starting on, was as a tax lawyer, which I guess if you want security, because taxes are going to be around forever, but you start in the world of tax, what was that appeal? And then let's talk about how that you sort of shifted off that a little bit. You know, I really, you're a litigator, and David, you know, I mean, you worry about things like evidence and other stuff, and things of that nature, or pleadings, and I just had zero interest in any event, in fact, if I had to do what you do, I don't know that I'd still be practicing law. Because I had to do tax, I'd have hung myself a long time ago. I really gravitated towards that and in law school, it's only thing I really liked was the corporate classes, the security transaction, the tax courses, my undergraduate degrees in finance, and economics. And so it seemed to be once again, really the one thing that I liked the most, as I was trying to get my JD. Alright, so you come out, you start kind of that big, firm track, I think it would national firms and everything else, kind of get your feet wet, I'm sure and get that experience, then you decide to do I guess, the great American dream that we all have, you know, start your own firm. Tell me about that. And how is it you got this group of friends together and decided to take that leap? You know, I spent about 15 or 16 years, at, you know, large, large firms haul the night, McDermott will and Emery, where I became a partner. And, you know, I had given it 15 years and still wasn't particularly happy. And day in and day out basis, nothing against the big firms. It was just sort of, you know, the things that I liked the most, and maybe it was a little more entrepreneurial. And because of that, I just decided that after 15 years, you learned you learn a thing or two, just by just by showing up, right? And, you know, it wasn't an easy decision, I you know, that the decision to delete, sort of a nice certain paycheck is not for everybody. But, you know, frankly, for me, it made all the difference in the world. You know, just being able to do my own thing. Work with the people I want to work with, you know, the practice of Lies can be tedious, it's certainly the intensity of it is relentless. And so, sort of who's the people that I'm going to be working with the kind of the kind of stuff that that I wouldn't be doing? Really pretty Jimmy made all the difference in the world in terms of providing some happiness. And because of that, I decided to start my own firm. So you start and you've got a collective group of friends, how was it decided? This is going to be the group. Um, you know, happenstance. One of them is Peter Gonzalez who's a commercial litigator, Peter and I are just we're in addition to be law partners, we're very good friends. Very similar in many ways. There's another lawyer public Assata that the three of us really started, you know, what is now SMG que De Santis Medina, obviously, is an M, and G is Gonzalez, Nikki was Kosala. And Pablos wife, Amelia Kursaal, is also a partner. And so she part of the key really is, is, obviously is her surname as well, too. And so it was really it was people that I liked, they all came from big firms as well. You know, as much as you know, we big firms get criticism, the truth of the matter is, especially for you know, what I do transactional law, you know, there's no better place to get that experience, you know, so the first few years, first 567 years, I mean, I was working, you know, not even a 10s of millions, but hundreds of millions of dollars of transactions. And so you don't you I wouldn't have got that experience anywhere else. And so from that, in that regard, you know, I call him out, you know, 15 years at a big firm, you know, seems like 45 years ago, watching some other things on your way out at that point. Right. So I actually 4545 years of work. So same thing. Yeah, no, I mean, if you look at the time sheet, that's correct, the numbers add up to about 45 years. But it was just, it was time, like, I mean, I was if I was ever going to do it, after about 15 years, it was just, it was opportunity. And then you know, Lord, you don't you know, this, we're risk averse, generally. And so, it was either do it now or never do it. And, and like I said, I had a couple friends, Pablo, and Peter, that really made the decision significantly easier in order for me to take that step. So, tell me about the firm now. I mean, because you pretty broad, what you do. I mean, you've sort of got this boutique firm, but you offer a lot of the services that the big firms offer. And tell me about sort of the practices that are there, and what's the philosophy behind your firm? Yeah, no. And, and so at our firm, you know, we've been we've been growing just by finding lawyers that we'd like personally. But also, you know, there's two requirements, you have to be a good person, you have got to be a good lawyer. Right. And so, we have a wide array of services. You know, we have Lesley eagle, who's, you know, one of the best entertainment lawyers in the southeast. We have David Pena, who's an immigration attorney. You know, we obviously have commercial litigators, Peter Gonzalez, and then we get solid. Mitch manlier. I mean, Carlos Garcia, Perez, I mean, we, you know, we could offer a whole, like, a whole team of litigators. We have transactional guys, Joe Gomez, who was a partner at David voices forum at Boys. Boys. Schiller, thank you very much. And like I said, for us if it made a lot of sense that it's going to pick up lawyers in different practice groups, right. And so, it didn't, you know, do we really need another corporate lawyer, a real estate lawyer? No, we really don't, you know, we do need a good entertainment lawyer, good immigration lawyer, good health care attorney. And so, from our perspective, once we sort of got the, you know, the basics, you can set transactional, and litigation, it became important to pick up little groups, you know, tax, you know, tax lawyers, estate planning attorneys. And that's really that's really how the growth comes. But if you know if any of those sort of core group and there's six of us approximately, well, no, there is six, you know, if somebody does, if you don't like them, or you had issues with that particular attorney, then you know, we're not even having that conversation. Right. And so, it really is a you know, there's not a lot of administration in our firm I mean, you know, we been at big firms where there's multiple layers of administration we literally have one right and so it's nice when six guys sit down behind the door and go look, we're going to agree on this one way or the other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean listening and like I said, from the perspective of growth, literally, you know, one day is all that needs to happen to Nick somebody and so yeah, we in you know, this David, we spend so much time in the office and so the people around you, you just have to have a certain a friendship and confidence and trust. And if you don't have that people to your left and to your right, that he can make sort of he can make work already, which is like, you know, as we discussed pretty tough. For me makes it even. it aggravates everything, frankly. Well, I've noticed one of the things that I was looking at stuff on your firm is, is yes, while you're sort of this boutique firm, it hasn't limited you to South Florida, I see that you do transactions, Latin America and all of these other countries. So, kind of talk about the evolution of how you continue to grow that aspect of the practice. I think that's really client base. Right. And so, we have clients. The nice thing about the nice, even though I don't know, I think by 2827 28, lawyers, it's a decent size. And you know, our roster of clients, you know, you know, knocking on wood is, is wide and varied and sort of if we have clients that are doing deals, and you know, I'm working on a deal in Chile, in Santiago, Chile, because it's a, it's a Chilean group that that's making an investment, you know, we'll do that. And so, it really, what really gave birth to that was some nice clients, who have very expansive business relationships, and do business all over the United States. And, frankly, in South America, and a little bit in Europe, too. I mean, we had a client, who's based in Belgium was here for a couple of weeks. And we, you know, we did a lot of the stuff that he needed to be done. You know, that like anybody else, nobody's been traveling. But now, but now it's starting to pick up again, and you see more and more of the of the work that national work and international work. That's fantastic. I've always respected you, as a lawyer, a lot of admiration for what you and your firm do. But I want to pivot for a minute and talk about, I think one of the things that has really struck me about you over the years, is you're giving back in in two ways. You're very, very actively involved in the Florida bar, or to Governor's and other organizations throughout that. And you're very involved in the community. And I think I see that sort of throughout your firm. So let's talk a little bit about that. Why is it important for you to be so proactive in the Florida Bar? And sort of help with all lawyers? Well, I mean, I and I'll, I'll promote a couple of both of our high schools' blanches or preferent, Christopher Columbus High School, I mean, they're their schools. And maybe you don't realize it as a younger man. But there are schools that really preach giving back to the community. And, you know, like I said, you know, Berlin and Columbus have been a little rivalry, although it's not really a rivalry in football. Until you beat us, it can't be a rivalry. But right, right, right. Away, obviously, we've got lots of mutual friends. And as much as there's fun jostling back and forth, there is a ton of mutual respect between Columbus and Berlin. That's correct. And like I said, I, I have a lot of Columbus clients, and it's important that we get to give back to the community. And like I said, I, I've always believed that that's something that's really preached by the kind of schools that we've gotten to the religious background. I mean, they, you know, like I said, whether you're paying attention or not, they're really there is incumbent upon their students to give back to the community. And, you know, as I said, you that just becomes part of your DNA. And I really enjoyed it. The I started out with keeping up with bar stuff in the Cuban American Bar Association, where I was president, and that organization really helped me. I mean, I mean, I'll tell you, it helped me grow as a person as a lawyer. You know, you become president of the Cuban American Bar Association in Miami, you know, you gotta raise your game, you know? and so, tiny organization, yeah, no, and, and I found that I really mean, I think I found that I really enjoyed it and gave me an opportunity to, I'm a big fan of lawyers. I mean, your, your, I mean, the name of the show, and, you know, obviously lawyers get a lot of criticism, some of it deserved much of it, not, in my opinion. I mean, I love I love, you know, lawyers, they give back to the community, they contribute to causes. I mean, they make sure things are done, well done correctly. And so, I'm a big fan of lawyers, and they gave me opportunities to interact with more lawyers. And so, after the Cuban American Bar Association, just happened to be an opening in the Board of Governors of the Florida Bar. And I joined the organization and you know, and because I'm an ambitious, you know, um, you know, when I was younger, maybe more ambitious, but, you know, I guess still ambitious. And so I, what I found was, I really, I enjoyed the work. I mean, I thought that you make life a little bit easier for lawyers, you know, that that was attractive to me. And so, the, the Florida and the Board of Governors, I mean, it's just an amazing group of people I 53 people from across the state that are they're typically very well accomplished shores, but also, you know, it's important for them to get back to community it's important for them to try to, like I said, Make lives make the professional lives of lawyers better, you know, wholeness, wholeness, health, health and wellness is a big issue, obviously, for Lori's has been for several years. Now, obviously, the pandemic really aggravated the situation. And so you know, we were trying to make efforts to do what we can and make the daily life of water much easier. And people are just phenomenal. And I deal quite a bit obviously with the staff, the Florida bar staff in Tallahassee, the executive director going to Josh Doyle. And I mean, he's really one of the best people that I've ever met. And just a fantastic guy smart. It's I truly enjoy working with Josh and his team of people. I guess I didn't know that I know anybody better. And so, the whole staff of the Florida Bar is just fantastic. They, they're professional, they're, they're, they're good people. The Florida Bar is actually, you know, is one of this is one of the leading bars in the United States of America, not only not only in size, obviously, but in terms of projects and cutting edge stuff. And, you know, the executive director of the Florida Bar is one of the most, one of the most respected if not the most respected executive director of a bar organization in the United States. So I said it, it's a lot of work. And you know, some people think it's a little bit of a boondoggle, but it's not, I mean, we sort of pay for everything. And so it, you know, it's a, it's not for everybody, because it can be expensive, traveling across the state for the meetings and taking time away from, from your practice and from your families. But, so I, I really enjoyed it, I it's, I've been fortunate to be able to be a part of it. Well, I'm grateful as a lawyer to have people like you, on that board of governors, because we have, we've seen it personally and through other friends. The stress of being a lawyer is hard enough, and now you had the pandemic, which has impacted everybody, obviously, but being isolated, I think you're seeing levels of depression and the whole aspect of, of kind of working together to get through this, as a legal profession and as a community, I think is extraordinarily important. And, you know, and the thing is, you know, lawyers need, you know, no one likes to see their lawyer other than being Superman or Superwoman. Right. And the truth of matter is, we're not I mean, we, you know, that's not something we can maintain 24/7 And so, you know, lawyers in particular have to show you know, strength and courage and passion and, you know, it fill in the blanks, and, and we're obviously still human beings. But you know, we can't we can never show any weakness, we can never show that we're tired that, you know, we're stressed out, etc., as the case may be. And, and the pandemic is only aggravated those situations, because in the middle of this, he said, just bizarre, horrible situation, you know, you David Halford, and you still got to carry the same caseload, you still have to solve all our problems, you still have to respond to all our calls and respond to all your emails and deadlines, etc. And I mean, you're only human David. I mean, there's only so much you can do and yeah, no, no, the pandemic is, is, is really, it's a, it's been a difficult time, I think, for lawyers in many different levels. But I think, frankly, I think 2022 is going to be a great year for all lawyers, and I think we're going to finally get to some level of, you know, whatever normal is going to be, but it but it's, I think it's on the cusp, I'm hoping, by the end of January, this sort of variants gotten, you know, it's gotten past and beyond it, it's, you know, you don't have 50% of the office out of, you know, people out of the office, because they have the new variants. So, but I'm really optimistic that, you know, things are sort of stabilizing a little bit forwards. God, let's hope so, because I think he could have said the same thing last year at the same time. But let's, let's hope we're heading there. You talk about passion quickly. One of the other things I know you're passionate about, and obviously it shows and we cross over on some of these things. But not only the legal community, you're passionate about South Florida and giving back to South Florida. And I think again, I see that echoed throughout your firm of what your partners do and what you do. But, you know, we're on the orange ball committee together. I see you're on the school board, Chamber of Commerce, okay. All of these type things. So why is it important for you to give back to South Florida in a non legal basis? You know, I like you I have children, right. And the more I invest in South Florida, the more the better place that it becomes, the more likely my children stay here. My friends do my family stays here. I mean, I you know, where we're invested in Miami, I'm not going to be going anywhere. I mean, I really and this place is it's a special place. I really do believe that with all my heart. And, you know, I mean, things like the Orange Bowl committee gives me an opportunity. You know, although we're litigator I will No, no, not run into But through the Orange Bowl committee, I get to spend some time with David Heffernan and, you know, catch up, do a little bit get into community showcase South Florida for what a wonderful area is. And I mean, I said, it's, I couldn't think of doing anything else. But that is part of my DNA, you know, just waking up, although, and I can You can attest to that. It's not easy. I mean, I know, it's, you're juggling a lot of balls. I mean, you, I mean, you, you've been on the arms about 20 longer than I have, and you've been a stalwart and that and you know, your, your name carries significant credibility, and with the Orange Book Company, like, so I might, what you did what you still do for the orange book, but I mean, I love it. It's the same thing as the Florida Bar, by the way to David, it gives me you know, give me opportunity to work with people like you, right. I mean, that's, you know, good work can be a grind. But working in the Orange Bowl committee, people meeting people like you, that are as passionate about South Florida want to do some good. And at the same time, you know, have a little bit of fun. I mean, you know, it doesn't get any better than that. Good stuff. Good stuff, for sure. We got a few minutes left, and I want to talk about one last thing that we could do an entire show in multiple shows about, but that I know is a passion of yours passion of your firm's. Also with the Orange Bowl, but diversity. I know, it's extraordinarily important to you, that your firm and your client telling me represent the people of what South Florida looks like what South Florida is, and the legal profession is one that trust me. I mean, I'm an old white guy. So you know, we were, we were the face of it. But to see that change, and again, not just as it goes organically, but being proactive to say, we're going to make sure that we're getting the quality people that represent what South Florida is. So why is diversity so important to you and your firm? Well, let me say this, David Everett, and as part of the solution, okay, part of that part of the problem, and you know, you said you're obviously a white man, but David Heffernan, his party, that's part of the solution. I mean, the way you think, your contributions, I mean, like I said, I wish everyone was, was like David Heffernan, um, you know, I mean, listen to it, you know, people need to be engaged, and it just can't be sort of the same kind of person being engaged. You know, you. The other day, I walked through the Miami Dade County Bar Association, and then the first 30 or 40 pictures were just white man. Right, right. And so from my perspective, it's really unique, because, you know, Miami needs to be among the most diverse places. A lot perspective, a business perspective, every perspective, because we are such a diverse community. And, you know, they let people know that there are opportunities, you know, let's, you know, I was born in Cuba, I mean, so I mean, I I'm so grateful for this country for everything that it's done for me. But it's, you know, it, you know, when someone like me can, can be get on the Board of Governors can you know, maybe one day, you know, ball, things work out, well become president of the Florida Bar, it lets people know that, hey, man, even though there's not, let's say, a natural road for me to get to the top, there is an opportunity if you work hard, if you stay engaged, if you know, if you're if you're authentic, and I always tell people, you know, be who they are. And so I think it's important for people to know, of every of every gender of every race and every ethnicity, that, you know, every opportunity to be the president, the Chairman, on the committee and a board of governors on our school committee, for them to know that, you know, I think it's a great message for that we send to the community, to be involved, to be engaged, you know, and you can do some good in the community, and you can be a leader in the process. And I think that's important. But I think South Florida has really matured and evolved in a wonderful way, in so many different ways. Like, I think you see that on the bench, right? I mean, it used to be many years that, you know, if you had a if you had, if you had a z if you had a z in your surname that you get you get elected, but I like I really believe that the community has evolved that, you know, the best person will when the person gets their message out for it for judicial races, for example. It's not just a Hispanic surname is going to be is going to be the winner of a judicial election. So I think that diversity, like I said, it just helps a community entirely. And it is important, like I said, all the organization that we're involved in, it's extremely important for all those organizations as well, too. Well, I'm ready and I'm flexible because I do a lot of cycling and there's a ride in Orlando called torta Latino and it supports Latino community, businesses and everything else. So the guys that I ride with, many of them are Hispanic and I joked He said with them well, is it going to be okay if I ride in it? They said, Yeah, just register as David Fernandez. So I got an alias I can go by just in case I need it. Yeah, but here's the simple thing you clearly have my vote if and when you run for Florida, president and Florida Bar, I think you do an outstanding job. And I think you've got a vote of all our viewers that we can take you off the kill list. Roland Sanchez Medina, phenomenal lawyer, great firm. But more importantly, better human being guy that cares about South Florida cares about this community. More importantly, I'm glad somebody can call my friend, Roland, thanks for being with us. Thank you, David and the opportunity. I said, I feel honored for this opportunity to be on your show, man. Thank you very much. Well, I appreciate it. We'll see you soon. And that's it for this episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. We'll see you guys next next! #MiamiPersonalInjuryLawyers #InjuryLawyerMiami #MedicalMalpracticeLawyerMiami #MiamiMedicalMalpracticeLawyers

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan and I've been practicing personal injury law here in Miami for nearly three decades. The goal behind this show is simply to bring in other lawyers from South Florida and other areas, in different areas of practices of law, get to know them a little bit, talk to them a little bit, find out about their practice. By the end of the podcast, maybe one by one, we can sort of remove them from the kill list. This one should be relatively easy. My guest this morning is Suzanne Amaducci Adams - good friend, phenomenal lawyer, fellow Orange Bowl member, and board of directors. So, we've got a lot to talk about. This is going to be an easy show because your type of law is something I know very little about. First off, how are you? I'm doing great. Thanks, Dave. Good morning. Good morning. All right. So let's talk about let's go way back for a little bit. What is it that drove you to practice law? Well, I was torn between the business school and law school didn't know what I wanted to do. Actually, originally, I wanted to go into the hotel business. Okay. I was told as a woman at the time, I mean, I'm pretty old. I was told as a woman at the time, there really weren't many opportunities there. And the highest rank that I would achieve would be an executive housekeeper. Now, if you know me, I am not a good housekeeper and that didn't seem like the best path career path for me. So, I ended up going to law school. So how do you wind up at Vanderbilt? Fine school. You know, it was one of those things I was between going to school in Boston, a bunch of friends had gone to Vanderbilt, it was kind of an unknown school. Now. It's the greatest you know, it's probably one of the hardest schools to get into. But it was unknown and I flew down I saw the campus and I decided let's try something new. Let's try the South. I knew nothing about the south at the time. Nashville certainly was not what it was like today. Right? Well, yeah, Nashville has changed quite a bit great, great city. Great City. But let me tell you, it was nothing like that. It was nice, you know, it was a suburban campus yet right next to downtown. Incredible southern influence. And it was a good time I learned a whole bunch about a different part of the country that I didn't know about Then we drive you further south geographically. But as I like to describe Miami, I think Miami is almost a northern city that's just located southern geographically. I was slowly moving my way south to the warm weather. I hated the winters. And I was always a big boater, so I needed to be near the water. Gotcha. All right. So, we get you down here you go to the University of Miami law school. And then your career path seems to take you where you had desires before. You're still sort of in the hotel industry to some degree, but a little different in you're not a housekeeper you're doing $6 billion deals and things like that. So billion, maybe a little bit, you know, was a $6 billion deal. So, let's talk about your practice and how this sort of evolved into what you've done. My passion is really development, and the hotel and Marina business. I worked in hotels as a kid, I love the business. It was great. I'm a big boater. So that's another asset I just happen to know a lot about and the best attorneys are the attorneys that understand their client's business, right so it healthcare doctors, you need to understand insurance, all sorts of stuff with real estate, you got to understand the way the building fits together. But then with these operating businesses like hotels and marinas, you have to understand the business, you have to understand where the money comes from, you have to understand, you know, the expenses, how to mitigate expenses, like I can walk in a marina and I can understand the condition of it, I can understand pretty much the revenue from looking at the type of boats that are there, which boats are there. And all the different businesses that are Marina, you've got fuel, you've got repair facilities, you've got restaurants, you've got bars, it's a big business. So, it's a good mix between business and law. All right. We're going to delve into that a little bit. Now just as a personal question, how in South Florida Do we not have more marinas more waterfront restaurants? I mean, we have such a beautiful venue and there just seems to be a shortage of all of them. You got a Fort Lauderdale seems to be a ton more marinas. You know, you've got restaurants and down here just not many. Well, there are a lot of marinas, okay. The boating activity has exploded exponentially, especially during COVID. So, there's just a shortage. Now as far as the waterfront restaurants are concerned, what's our most expensive real estate waterfront? It's really hard to make a go of it if you're a restaurant operator, and your rent is incredibly high because you're on the water. So there are a few, right? It's a very expensive endeavor. Because my whole path was to start the next restaurant on the water. So what like everyone wants to own a bar? Everyone wants to own a bar. It's a really bad idea. No, I know. And then everyone who doesn't have a boat wants to own a marina because they want all their friends to comment. It's like every other business, it's a difficult business, you really need to know what you're doing. I want to focus on your firm a little bit because you are the partner and the head of the real estate division. I know a lot of lawyers over there. Just a very, I think, unique firm in that. It's a big firm, but you're Miami-based, but you're an international practice. So, you know, it's, we're perfect in my mind. And that's why I'm there. And that's why I've been there for over 20 years. But we're the anti-big firm, firm. Okay, we operate like a big firm, but we don't have solely a Florida footprint with solely of Miami office, people say, you know, how can you survive in this kind of environment where all these big firms are getting together? There are all these law firm mergers? Well, we're different, right? So, we have, I always like to say we're kind of like a boutique hotel, right? So, you go to a boutique hotel, because you want a very high level of service. And a discerning client can go anywhere they want, but they go there because of the high-level service and the high level of expertise. Okay, we have more real estate lawyers and land use lawyers than anyone in town. Period. Right. Okay. And now right now, we also have a litigation department and an international tax and, and whatnot. And corporate of course, but you know, when people are coming to Miami, what do they need? They need, you know, local knowledge, they need an expert. And we all came from large national firms like we all understand that model. We didn't like it. We like local decision-making. So, we operate as if we're a big firm, but we have one office and I do work all over the country. I don't do work. I've done work in Alaska. I've done work in Hawaii. My biggest project right now that I've been working on for like almost 20 years, is in Bridgeport, Connecticut, right? It's a 100-acre development deal in Bridgeport building a Bass Pro, we built a marina an office building a restaurant, Chipotle T mobile's dollar box. I'm getting ready to build a hotel with 2000 multifamily units. I mean, it's like a lifelong project. Right? Although it's in Connecticut, it's not here. Right? That's fantastic. See, now we can take bills and summer golf to kill us. Because you're the anti-lawyers, which well, which is what I always sort of like, and that's why I sort of started this as a joke, you know, to kill all the lawyers and then all the lawyers, of course, well, you know, Shakespeare meant, that is a flutter echo. I get it. But people laughed, you know, I don't care. There are some lawyers that want to kill him, right? I mean, the one thing that's maybe I guess you haven't litigation to, but in real estate, you know, you're constantly negotiating deals, and at the end of the day, I have to make a deal, or I didn't do a good job, right. And at the end of the day, I make it a little bit more of this, and you make it a little bit more of that. But at the end of the deal, end of the day, we need to make a deal. Okay, and you see these people over and over and over again. I deal with the same 10 lawyers in New York all the time, right? Same couple of lawyers in LA the same few in Chicago. It's amazingly a small world. But you know, you got to be nice, you got to be respectful, and you got to be a straight shooter. Well, and to me, you got to set your ego aside, okay. What's the best for my client? Okay, I deal with personal injury, you deal with yours? So at the end of the day, it's not about me, it's not about you, it's what's the best outcome for the client? And I think too many times lawyers kind of lose focus on that because they want to make it about that without a question. And you know, it's not about the fees. Okay, sure. The fees are expensive, okay. That's the way it's going to get done. But I get paid for results. My clients come back to me because I got the deal close, no matter what craziness I had to go through no matter what problem I had to solve. I got the deal done. I got them their result. And for them, that's priceless. Same with you, you get them a good result. It's priceless. Right. So, we've talked about a lot on the show with other litigators and everything else, the effects that COVID had, and that was because the courthouse is basically closed and the change and all of that, but you're in tell hospitality, that had to have a huge COVID had to have a huge impact on that because people stopped traveling. I mean, where is it all going? And are we starting to see it come back and hotels coming back? And so many different answers to that question. So, I closed a hotel loan refinance in Chicago, like March 9, we closed we got a phone call, we said you are closing in 24 hours and we are pulling this loan because we don't know what's happening in the industry. So, we closed we had to do a little credit enhancement, but we closed we got it done. Okay. Three weeks later, that hotel was closed, right? Had you ever asked me I only close two hotels in my entire career. Okay, and that was as a lender after I foreclosed because it just didn't make sense anymore. Right. I've now closed on Your kids in the Caribbean here everywhere. And like you just don't think what do you need when you close a hotel? Like what do you need? You need security, you need air conditioning, you got to get rid of all the food you got, like, you can't just walk away can't just lock the front door and your expenses don't stop, right? Like there's certain expenses that you still have. So, it's very problematic, but your income goes to zero overnight. Zero, positively zero. Right? So, it was a very, very strange time for the industry. The industry you know, struggled for the first 1215 months. The lenders were good. Everyone kind of got together and said, okay, we need to keep the hotels open. We need to keep them flexible. There were very few foreclosures during COVID. Okay, there were these little workouts and relief that was given you know, everyone, let's use the reserves, we have savings, let's work together, use the reserves keep employees employed like and the PPP money helped tremendously, to keep people. So that's what happened. Now. Fast forward to today. South Florida's position beautifully, absolutely, perfectly beautifully, because we're drivable, you know, when people were afraid to fly, and we are drivable. We were a tourist destination, people wanted to come to the beach, everyone had to get out of their house, they just couldn't stand being there anymore. They need a little bit of a break. So, we actually fared quite well in South Florida, because we were a destination. Now, there are still some convention center hotels in the Northeast and the Midwest. They're still closed. They've been closed for almost two years, a huge convention center hotel because there's no business for them right now. Right? Well, Adelphia is one of the markets I was working in. And there were a ton of hotels that were closed, I had all the convention center hotels with different clients, you know, trying to do some sort of relief. Now they were all conventions at our hotels are usually owned by very well-heeled institutional investors. Right. So, I have money, which is good, you know, and they kept the payments coming and everything. But, you know, everyone kind of worked together, as opposed to working apart to keep the hotels going, shall we just say, so, our convention centers, because obviously, you know, all of the events that you see that the convention centers hosts and everything else sort of got shut down? Oh, I mean, all the companies corporations ever say, well, we're not doing a big annual retreat this year. We're not you know, and things have gone virtual. So, are we going to see convention centers come back? Are they going to have to repurpose or they're starting? I mean, again, we're blessed to be in sunny South Florida. Right? We are blessed. So um, so they're coming back. They're slowly starting. I went to my first conference, in Nashville in September, I gave a speech, I guess it was October, um, you know, so they're starting, they're starting to happen, but people are going to pick and choose, they're going to maybe go to one instead of five. I think the attendance is down. ICSC is the big retail conference in Vegas. It was last weekend. And it was much, much, much smaller than it was before. So, I mean, the optimal word right now is pivot. Everybody's got a pivot, right? And how can you know you pivot your business, but I think it's going to come back, it's just going to be slower to come back. I think business travel is starting to come back. But it's much more meaningful, you're going to take one trip and set a time, right, basically be on a plane back and forth to New York all the time. I went to New York for the first-time last month. So, you know, it's just going to be slow. But again, we're just blessed to be in South Florida. Is there going to be a hybrid? I mean, we've seen it in litigation, we've gone to virtual hearings for motion counting are those which I think is a tremendous byproduct of COVID. And I think that will survive because schlepping to the courthouse for a five-minute hearing just doesn't make any sense anymore. When you can efficiently do it. Now obviously, still got to have jury trials. You got to have the buildings there. But are you seeing in in real estate and everything else, more virtual dealings going on, where you're not traveling places where you still need to be face to face? So, you know, real estate had pretty much you know, we never had the New York Stock closings anymore. There's no sit down closings that were kind of like the last generation, right? And that's how I started my career. But our Associates today, they don't know. They don't know what that's like because everything was done electronically. Before anyway, right? But the most effective way to negotiate with someone is to meet them, right? If you really need to negotiate something serious or have a serious conversation with someone, you really need to do it. In person. It's also much more meaningful, you convey to the person that they're very important to you if you're now going to go see them. That's a significant thing. But you know, zoom, okay, you can do some meetings and court five-minute court hearings. I know that that's much more efficient, but for me to sit on a zoom conference, I'm telling you, I'm on my phone, I'm on my computer. I'm doing three things at once, not just two I can't concentrate anymore I need, you know, you need to meet with people. Well, and the difficulty I have found, and I found that, both and taking depositions. And then, you know, I teach in the trial program, which we were doing virtually now, thank God we're back in person, I know you've done some teaching it to you. And I've only got a students, it's a small class, but the problem is, I'm on Zoom, I can't tell if I'm looking in somebody's eyes, because I'm just looking at a camera. They maybe look at the camera, but we're not, we're not making this connection. And, you know, I think you just lose so much. Because again, I don't know what you're looking at, or what's going on, because I can't really engage. My business is a relationship business, you can't build relationships over zoom. You just can't you build a relationship by having a coffee with someone by having a cocktail. By having lunch, you learned so much more about someone. And you know, real estate is truly a relationship business. And as far as teaching is concerned, I thankfully, finished my class at u m, just before COVID it. So, my class was done that semester, and I did teach last spring. But I insisted on doing it in person, like I had to teach in person. I couldn't teach overs. I just couldn't do it. I had four or five students in class, I had some distance learners. So, I was always videoed. And then I also had a screen with my Zoom students. So, I never knew what a camera like, where am I looking? Who am I talking to? Right? And I'll tell you, I know, the students who were sitting in class better than I know, the students who were on Oh, sure. I remember their names. I remember more things about them. No offense to students on Zoom, because they actually did quite well on the exam. But I just didn't make a connection. Right. Well, and I think the same in litigation because we talked about the elimination of motion practice, which is a good thing, except what You don't have is the dialogue back and forth with opposing counsel, okay, you know, a deposition ends, you know, and we're somewhere the opposing counsel, I'm getting a drink, I'm flying back with them or whatnot. I'm not just hitting the button. And then it's all over. And it's that dialogue that kind of continues to move things, even though it may not be a dialogue necessarily about what's the core issue. But it's just it. You're right, it's relationship building. It's really, and I always joke that the litigators, all they want to do is fight and all I want to do is build things right. That's always my tongue in cheek joke, okay. But look, you will cut a better deal for your client, if you know the opposing counsel, like you'll know whether they're a jerk, or you'll know whether they're a straight shooter, you'll know something about them, right. But you will have much more insight into how to cut a deal, because at the end of the day, we all want to cut a deal. I mean, there's not that many try going to trial is extraordinarily expensive, extraordinary. And, you know, I truly try and avoid it all go if I have to with my clients, but like, look, kind of business deal, right? And you can do that so much better. If you know that person, you know, how they think you know, what motivates them, you know, what their client motivates them. I always ask people like, what's your goal? Like, what is truly your goal? I'll ask the other side, I'll ask my side. But if I know what your goal is, I know what my goal is. Or you're saying, notice something I'm asking for? I see what, why No, because if you tell me why maybe I can figure out another path, right? 100%. So, if you don't know those people, you can't have that conversation. It's which is why you know, and it's funny because they've experimented with things in litigation of doing, you know, sort of this virtual mediation with AI information and plugging in, and it just doesn't work. There's a human element to it. That I think is critical in litigation in any negotiation at any point in any deal. You can't just plug in numbers, right? I mean, there's not an algorithm to fix. The other thing, too, is what I call the tough guy. Right? Everyone can be a tough guy on the phone, and everyone can be a tough guy in email. But you know, they can't be a tough guy in person. I mean, when I wear my heels, I'm six foot one. Okay, I'm taller than most of the men in Miami. Not you, Dave, thank you. And I'm saying you can't be abusive, especially to a woman to her face. I mean, it's much more, trust me there are. I was going to say, I know. There are a few I won't, but I know plenty of people that will but the majority? Well, right, you know, and it's just a different dynamic. Alright. You bring up obviously, the female component to it when you started in the practice of law. And it's probably still somewhat male-dominated, but clearly, you were going into male-dominated business. Okay. And one of the nice things about Bill's, and is, I think, again, I think they're in the forefront of inclusion and diversity and everything else and you just look at, look at who works there. And you see what the emphasis is, but what have you seen change? As you know, as a young female lawyer now to the practice, it's still probably male-dominated to some degree. So yes, it is male dominant, there are more women today. Um, you know, I truly view the world as gender-neutral, right? and my business is gender-neutral. I am almost always the only woman in the room, almost always. And I'm just used to it, right? It doesn't bother me. Right. But I'll tell you my first closing, I was practicing in Orlando. And you know, I work I, you know, I over-prepared, I checked all the documents, 100 times and all this stuff. So, I walk into the closing room, I'm in there by myself and I have opposing counsel, and I've got the developer I was making alone. And I've got the developer there. And the developer says, Darlin, can you make a few photocopies for me? And I sat there, I took a deep breath, I wasn't sure what to say, because it caught me off guard really honest with you, right? And I said, Sure. Because remember, the borrower pays the lenders, attorneys fees, right? So I said, Sure. I mean, at $225 an hour, if that's what you want me to be doing, I'll be happy for you. And the guy looked at me funny, and his attorney, that's the attorney, it whispered in his ear. So you know, you start that way. And you just learn to handle it. Right? You kind of take it in stride. Alright. One of the other things that builds in Sundberg focuses on even though they're international, is a big focus on Miami and South Florida. And I think they take great pride. And I've seen some of the stuff reference, you know, the new Miami so. So what do you see as Where's Miami going? What Miami has come a long way. And we were looking at a picture and you and I started, there are a few buildings that are missing. Miami has come a long way. And it really is there's really no limit to where it can go with the diversity of people who are moving here, the diversity of companies, the arts, the culture, I mean, Miami is going to explode if we're not already exploiting Miami, but it's South Florida, right? It's completely South Florida. I sit on the Miami Downtown Development Authority Board. And we focus on is bringing business into South Florida and into the DDA district. And it's amazing how much business has come in and how many new companies and whatnot Miami is just on fire. I think we're unlimited as to where it can go. But as a firm, you know, we are Miami, right? Okay, this is we're born and bred here. As a firm and you know, you have to invest in your community, you have to give back. And we have board positions on basically, every charity, every organization, we require all that we don't have to really twist many arms, we require all of our partners and associates to be involved in the community. They get to pick where, right whether it's kids, it's sports, it's charitable, it's the arts, they pick where but they have to be invested in the community. Well, look, it's critical. You and I have gotten to know each other through the Orange Bowl committee. Again, big commitment to South Florida. Citing time of year for us the great time we got we clearly got the best game and match-up. So it's, it's going to be fun over the next few weeks as it gets kind of crazy on our end. But then you look at the things we're able to do for the community through the Orange Bowl committee and the legacy gifts and the giving back. And, and that really is a critical thing. I mean, if this is what you call home, then you've got to invest in without a question. And, you know, it's again, it goes back to relationships, like Dave, you can pick up your phone, and you can call a whole host of people, you can open a door, you can get to the right person through your involvement in the community, right, they're not necessarily going to give you something but they're going to open a door for you. So, you can get to the right person. And that's what we find now, where, you know, our firm is just priceless. Right? Because all the people coming into Miami, they need help. They're from New York, Chicago, we just have a lot of international people who really needed help, but the domestic people, you know, they need help, too. And they need someone who can pick up the phone and call the mayor's office or pick up the phone and call that surveyor who didn't get a survey Donner or whatever it is the ability to pick up the phone, call the right person, have them take your phone call, it's priceless. 100% doesn't matter what you charge per hour for that. So, we're seeing well, let me ask you, are we seeing a shift now? Post COVID? Because people can do things virtually. I know the mayor made a big push to bring tech down here and everything else. Are we seeing that start to shift in Miami? Oh, absolutely. And it's not just COVID prove that we could do. Right. Okay. But it's not just because you can work remotely. I mean, the tax structure of some of these other states of California and New York. I mean, it just doesn't make sense to live there anymore. Right? And if you can live here where it's beautiful. So many months out of the year, people have summer homes any way they leave you know like these people were travelers anyway. Right. But if they could be based here enjoy our outdoor life, right? That's what we have. We have our life in the winter. And if they can enjoy that and work and have a huge tax advantage, it's a win-win. You've been doing this a long time. We won't say how many years. But you're still very passionate about it. What is it that keeps you passionate about what you're doing? A couple different things. So, um, you know, I learned something new every day. I learned something that I take with it, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, I definitely learned something. But I'm to the point in my career now where I can kind of pick and choose my clients. Right. And I love my clients. I mean, my clients are great people. I know them. They're personal friends. And it's fun. Like, for instance, I'm doing a deal a series of deals actually, with the mother of one of the daughters in my daughter's class. They've been going to school together since they were two and a half. Okay, my mother and I met at preschool. Really, we met at preschool. I knew who she was, she knew who I was, but we had never met before. And we became fast friends, and we're developing all a pilot together. That's fantastic. providing some affordable housing doing a whole bunch of different things. Right. So it's just it's much more fun when you're doing it with your friends. So what are your favorite projects to work on? Is there whether it be a Marina Hotel, a whole thing like you're working in Connecticut, where it's everything? What's, what's the one that's the most fun? The most fun is good? I like a good puzzle, right? So, I like a good challenge. You know, the cookie-cutter deals, you know, fine, I can do them no problem. And I do them. And you know, I pay the bills. I still make photocopies if I have to, I'll personally deliver a package like I don't care what I do, right? You got to get the deal done. Right. And some of the younger people don't quite understand that. But that's a topic for a whole other show. I just I love I love a good puzzle. And I like working with a good client. And if I really had my druthers, I like to build things. I really like to build things. Fantastic. Well, should be very easy to take off the kill list. Suzanne Amaducci Adams, the partner and head of the real estate. Been a pleasure. We can have these conversations. We'll have many more of these conversations. I'll see you tonight at the orange ball function. We're going to kick off this year's game hosting the semifinal not that we need to tell that, but Michigan and Georgia and I know we don't have to tell it because I've gotten more requests than I've ever had. I haven't. I haven't. Exactly. Well, you can kill her for not having tickets. But for the lawyer aspect. an anti-lawyer who I really love, you can take her off the list. That's another episode. We'll see you next week.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan. I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for about three decades now. The goal behind these podcasts is quite simple. I bring in lawyers from various aspects, different careers, different things, talk about different areas of law and sort of one by one hopefully, we can take them off the kill list and prove that maybe Shakespeare was wrong back in the 15th century. This morning it will be an easy task. My guest is a friend, colleague, an excellent lawyer, and I dressed up this morning actually put a jacket on because in some aspect now as you're going to find out, she's my boss. So let me introduce Jeannie Jontiff. A pleasure to have you on this morning. How are you? I'm great. Thanks, David. Good morning. Nice to see you. Likewise, likewise. So let's start with the simple stuff. Let's go back a little bit. You went to U. M law, and we've got some parallel paths there. But before you get there, what got you into the practice of law? Ah, a very circuitous route. I started out as a musical theater major, I kind of switched into political science, but with still a dance, a minor in dance. And then I don't know, I kind of started working in the law. I worked in real estate, and I did contracts. And then I thought that was interesting. And then I, I ended up actually taking a position at Kodak Trofim, Throckmorton as a paralegal, and then I kind of said, well, I can do this. I may as well just go to law school. Well, that there's certainly a great group of lawyers there to learn under and we know them all, well, tremendous, tremendous firm. So. So that's where the start goes, then you go to UNM. And then you and I have one common Lincoln that just a couple of years before you I won the Thomas Seewald Scholar Award, ah, which is, which is a nice little gesture, I still have the trophy somewhere the Montblanc pen, which was a nice award. And then obviously, we both had the opportunity to teach in the litigation Skills Program. And now we sort of segue. You've got a thriving practice, you and your husband have been doing personal injury law Jonathan. But this year, you shifted gears a little bit. And you're now the acting director for the litigation skills department. So let's talk about how that came about. You know, I've been intimately involved in litigation skills since I took the program. My favorite thing about law school was litigation. Always super passionate about it. And you know, with all that was going on with the pandemic, I kind of, you know, helped out a lot more than I ordinarily do.You know, so they were looking for someone to kind of step in at least interim while we have our interim dean. So they brought me in to help out for the next couple of years. Let's talk about the litigation skills program. Because, like you, that was clearly the most enjoyable thing I did in law school, clearly the most practical thing I did in law school. In that, it, all of these things started to make sense to some degree, you know, you learned rules, and you learned this, and you learn that but was in a vacuum. And then all of a sudden, you went, Oh, wait, that's how this works. So talk a little bit about the litigation skills program and what that takes students through. So at the heart of it, I mean, you know, the lit Skills Program is an advocacy program. So we've tried to teach students how to how to really figure out how to put all the pieces of the puzzle together, kind of like, as you said, and they learn in kind of three different forums. So the main litigation skills class, and there's a lot more to litigation skills than just the main class, but for purposes of our time here, so we have a lecture component, and then we have a pre-trial and a trial class. So a trial class, they're learning the skills that every trial lawyer needs, you know, how to do an opening, how to do a direct examination, how to do a cross-examination, you know, how to enter evidence, and to know how to put documents and things into evidence. And then, and then in their pre-trial class, they're learning like the nuts and bolts of how to take a case from beginning to end. And they work a case file the entire semester, in pre-trial while they're doing these exercises in their trial class. And the culmination is and you've done this a bunch of times yourself, is we go down, together, and we have final trials at the courthouse. And so that's a really exciting part of you know, the program is to have these final trials where we have real juries come in, that we bring in and they try a case which you know, who gets to try a Christ with no downside. What and it's funny because that's what I tell all the students, you know when they get up, do Their final trial and it is I mean, that exercise, and so much credit, I mean, goes to Lonnie, and then Lydia who runs that program. So, so well, but what they do to bring in, and we've seen it evolve over the years, you know, we'd have two or three jurors, and then we, you know, now you've got eight 910 Jurors sometimes that show up, and to be able to get into a courtroom, oftentimes with a real judge presiding, because we've cut many of them that are part, you know, of the faculty, and put on witnesses. And then, and this is where I learned each time, they get to listen to the jury deliberate, which we don't get to do in the real world, you know, you get to hear them talk in the feedback. And I just think it's a tremendous, tremendous exercise for them. But yeah, I always commend them. And I go, look, it's good news is no risk of being sued for malpractice at the end of this trial. Right? Yeah. And I mean, that's the extraordinary thing about it, as they actually get to hear what the jurors have to say, and get some fruitful, you know, feedback, which, you know, in the real world, you never, you never know what they do behind closed doors, which is also really interesting to see, you know, the things that jurors see on that, you know, when we're putting on a case, like there are very often little things that jurors pick up, when you see this in these deliberations that didn't even occur to you or wasn't even something you were trying to impart, you know, like, it wasn't something you were necessarily arguing. It's just something they pick up on. And they're like, Well, what about this, and you're like, we didn't even talk about that. But so that's kind of an interesting part, I have to say, you mentioned Lydia Sanchez, and I have to say, the lid Skills Program wouldn't be with what it is right now, especially without, without Lydia Sanchez, our Senior Program Manager, and we also have our paint, paint Penya. And not daily noon, noon, yes, we have a great team. And that's really we all work together as a team. And it's really an extraordinary program, and it wouldn't be able to be done so seamlessly without you know, our team, no question they are, they are the continuity that sort of drives that train and keeps it on the tracks and the standing job of, of hurting the adjunct faculty. And to me, that's one of the things I think that's appealing as, as a teacher, one, the interactions that we get with the other faculty members, but as students, when you look at it, just talk a little bit about the faculty. I mean, there are federal judges, there are state court judges, there are prosecutors, there are high profile lawyers. I mean, it's, you know, it's one of those, I look around and go, How do I get into this little club? Because it's a pretty special club. It's funny, because my husband, former partner used to say, you know, how do you get to be part of the lit skills club? So yeah, it really is. It's a, it's a who's who of Miami and really the whole pogrom program, you know, centers around our adjunct faculty, obviously, they teach the pretrial classes, the trial classes, there anybody in everybody you could possibly imagine this, who's who in Miami, but more importantly, you know, these students get to interact with, you know, federal judges, federal magistrate judges, state court judges, appellate court judges, you know, local attorneys, former US attorneys, you know, just an amazing faculty that, you know, provide guidance, you know, information, potential, you know, career, you know, opportunities, and, and mentorship, which is really great, because they constantly, you know, have this interaction with these folks. And in very many times, and I don't know about you, but myself, I have had ongoing relationships with some of my students, I'm still friends with my adjunct faculty members from a million years ago. So it's really, you know, an amazing opportunity for a young and upcoming lawyers. Well as, as am I, and it is funny, I mean, David Diehl taught me pre-trial, Judge Hawk was one of my trial teachers, you know, and he still teaches in the program. And so to see that and, and it was funny, it was nice to judge Huck was teaching some other programs called me want to know if I had some certain materials on things and everything else. And, and so yeah, the connections you make on that, and again, students, although and I stole this from somebody else, I won't take credit for it. But what I tell my students last class of the year is I said, Look, you know, you're going to go out now and you're going to become practicing lawyers. And, you know, there's a chance we may see each other and if we cross paths, always remember this. I taught you everything, you know, but I didn't teach you everything I know. Okay. You know, I worry about that when you see them out there, because you're like, well, they're a lot smarter, and I was at the time. And so it is a lot of fun. And it's a great program. And I think you've seen it and I'm sure now as acting director, you get it. The feedback in the community of looking to hire law students who in fact took litigation skills and took that trial program because it gives them that extra special skill set. Oh, sure. They're ready to hit the road. running, I mean, how many, you know, students do you get in that are, you know, first-year associates that have actually kind of tried a case, you know, and that's a really extraordinary, but the one thing that I that it's funny because most everybody focuses on what skills just for the trial aspects and the litigation aspects, but really, there are so many students that take lit skills just because of the oral at the casino component. You know, at some point in your legal career, whether you're a litigator or not, you're going to, you're going to need to advocate for a position. And, you know, we teach students how to do that how to issue spot how to find a position, and advocate for it. And so you could use that as a transactional lawyer, as an on a board of director any, you know, think of all the things you've done in your legal career that doesn't involve, you know, necessarily litigation, and how you use those skills, you know, as well that you learned as a litigator in that in that capacity. So that's the other thing. That, you know, is really, really important, because, you know, we, we have a lot of students that come up that don't necessarily want to be litigators, and then end up, you know, learning all these advocacy skills that they can lose down the line. We also actually one of our faculty members, former political students said, you know, lift skills, changed her career path. I mean, she started lit skills, not knowing, you know, what she wanted to do, and ultimately, led skills was what, you know, made her believe that she wanted to be a litigator, and then she went on to be a judge. So, but, you know, it really determined her career path. So it's really an important program because it just opens up so many doors and opens your eyes to so many things, as it really does. And I've had students that it's fun to watch, because as the semester goes on, you see them sort of find their voice, you know, they didn't have the competence, they didn't think they could do those things. And all of a sudden, they started and they're like, oh, wait a minute, you know, I can do this, and I enjoy it. So one of the other I think key components. And again, it's something we don't get to see and we don't use in the real world is they videotape these sessions. And they have, they have non, you know, legal, they have theatrical people and everything else critique some of the students and again, just on the presentation, how they stand, what they do with their hands, you know, all of these things, that unless you actually see yourself on videotape, people can tell you things. But once you see it, you kind of go, oh, and so talk about that component of the learning process of being able to videotape these things, and then get reviewed with someone watching the videotape with you. Right, so we have a video review of all their trial sessions. And they're done by Jen Burke, who is the head of the theater department at the University of Miami, and also by one of our adjunct faculty members. So they get and then swap weeks. And you know, Jen covers the things, the theatrical things, how do you stand? What's your tone? Is? Do you have inflection in your voice? You know, are you speaking in a monotone way? On You know, do you use? Okay, yes, oh, you know, like little tics that we can tweak, and learn to teach students to maybe take a pause, to take a breath to not have to struggle for every word, and then filler with things that make no sense. So we do that. And then also you have the adjunct faculty that goes with them, you know, goes through the videos with them and says, Well, you know, you could ask this a little bit better. Or you could do this way, or have you ever thought about maybe this is an issue in your case. So it's really an opportunity to review. I mean, they get reviewed when they do in class,, they get a review, they get a critique right after they perform, but to see it later, and to be able to play it back, I think brings a whole different aspect to it. Because when you're getting you to know when you do something, and right afterward, you talk about it, that's one thing, but to see yourself on videotape, and then have someone say, you see when you did this here, you know, and so that really, you know, it's a game-changer. Yeah, it's a tremendous tool. And, you know, as you work with students, and I work with students, that's one of the things that's critical is, is for them to find their own style, because you can look at great lawyers and great trial lawyers, and you can take bits and pieces, but it's really not a skill, because to me, the genuineness of the trial lawyers is what has to be first and foremost, that jury has to believe that this lawyer believes in what they're talking about. And if you're mimicking, it's hard to be that genuine. So, you know, taking these students and crafting them to say, you know, don't do it, just like that was how would it work within your skillset? I think it's a tremendous asset. Well, it's what you said they find their voice, so you can't be someone else. I can watch someone do a direct or cross and go, Wow, that was fantastic. Does that fit into my wheelhouse? I don't know, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Because there are certain things that I can do that other people can't. And there are certain things that other people can do that I can't, you know, so you have to really be true to yourself and let your own personality come through. So that's, you know, that's really important finding your own voice figuring out what you do because what somebody else does, may not, it might actually be awkward. Like, you can't try to, you know, I can't try to mimic David Heffernan because I'm not, right. So and it's a big difference. You know, a lot of this has to do with how you present yourself, some of it has to do with, you know, your physicality, you know, if you're, you know, a big person with a booming voice or a small person that may need to up your, your tone a little bit more, but it just, you have to figure out what works for you. And that's what I think we're really, really good at doing. Because, you know, between all of our adjuncts and the theatre department, we really work on these students to try and let them find their own voice, like you said, which is, you know, huge. And it's, and it is critical. I mean, you get into some of our state courtrooms, although I know, we're building new ones, you know, and they're kind of tight. So for a guy, my sides, I've got to be very conscious of, you know, not getting on top of the jury, or even not getting too much on a witness, I don't want the perception that I'm beating up on the witness. So, you know, I might tone across your examination a little differently with that witness, whereas you being slightly smaller than I am, yeah, oh, come on. Yeah, just a tad, might be able to be a little more aggressive, and kind of in your face it all of those things. And again, until you see them until you're told about them until you have veteran judges and lawyers saying, Look, you know, try this, and then they start to see their things. I mean, it's just, it's a tremendous, tremendous program. Right? It really is. And you know, that the problems that we take them through are hugely important and doing that, because also it depends on who your witnesses, right, I'm constantly, I'm constantly telling the students like the one answer, that's absolutely 100% true all the time. And litigation is, it depends. There are so many factors, right, you have a case, you could have the same set of facts, and have two different witnesses two different people play the witness or be the witness to different types of personas, right, and you would have to do, do what you do a little differently for each one, or maybe completely differently, depending on who your witnesses, right, if you have someone who's, you know, shy or, you know, if you're too booming and too up in their face like you said, then obviously, you come across as way too aggressive. But if the witness is super aggressive, then you know, you know, and you're shy, and, you know, demure, that's not going to work either. So that's part of what they learn to because they do these practice skills with, you know, various different witnesses. So that's a huge factor, you know, learning how to, to make those changes, and sometimes on the fly, because, you know, when you're in court, you just don't know all the time, sometimes, you know, rarely, but sometimes a witness comes in that you've never had the opportunity to meet. So, you know, you got to figure out how you're going to approach that witness right then and there, you don't have the opportunity to like have, you know, a steadfast gameplan, you know, so you talked about being able to get back into the courtroom for the final trials this semester. I want to go back and sing the praises of Lydia a little more. And much like I think our court system did, but we had to go virtual. And that changed the dynamic of everything, but talk a little bit because, you know, it was a learning curve for us as adjunct faculty. But it was a learning curve for them. And, you know, you started to teach now, how to be an advocate. When you're on a zoom call, you know, I mean, my students is like, hold on, you got to pretend you're in court, you know, take off the polo shirt, put on a tie, you know, make your lighting, right. So talk about the difference now to start creating virtual advocates, which some component of that is still gonna be around no matter what. Right? So, you know, we've been toying with how do we deal with that, because there's always going to be some virtual components. So, you know, we did have a virtual section this semester, next semester, we're completely alive. But what we are doing is, for instance, you know, for our trials, they the students do a pre-trial conference as you would in the real world, you know, you go to try a case you meet with the judge before you go to trial. You have a pre-trial conference. So our pre-trial conferences are virtual, and they're going to remain that way. Because in the real world, that's what would happen. You would have a pre-trial conference, you would go in you would meet with the judge. They do need you to know, you do need to know how to do that. Motion calendar for lawyers is is mostly, if not 100%, virtual right now, you need to know how to screen share, you need to know the technology, it's very important, you need to know how to do your lighting, which I did a terrible job this morning. Well, we grab your last minute that I usually do that blocks the stuff that makes me look like a ghost, but that's okay. But again, you've got to learn how to do stuff on the fly, right? So that's kind of an important thing for them to do. And virtual is going to be around for a long time. So it's something that we are incorporating? Well, it was, it was funny because you and I had the opportunity in judging a final trial a semester or two ago, I mean, time just is now sort of obscured but where we watched that young girl, young woman do a closing with the screen behind her in the PowerPoint was now her background. And you know, her face and she moved around it. This girl we talked to her afterward, was terrified of public speaking and everything else. And it was one of the best closings I've ever seen. And I stole a bunch of the technology, because I'm like, that's fascinating, like, the way she put that together. But in talking to her afterward, I don't think she would have done the same had she been living in a courtroom, because she was much more comfortable with sort of that being in front of a camera and doing that and not otherwise. So it's a fascinating dichotomy between the balance between these things. Well, you know, a lot of our students, you know, are young and into the tech stuff, and used to being on camera, which I think our generation a little bit different. We didn't have all the techie we didn't have selfies and you know, all that stuff, Polaroid cameras, come on, you could get a picture within like, 60 seconds. Right? But so that's a whole new dynamic. And so they really can step up to the game, you know. So that's, that's really important that you learn how to do that. The one thing I always caution is, if you're gonna use technology, make sure it works. Because there is nothing worse than being in court and, you know, trying to use technology and failing miserably. I, fortunately, have not had that experience, because I bring someone to help me. So it's like, I'm in court, it's got to be like, no snafu is somebody else's got to be sitting there pushing the buttons while you're, you know, on your feet thinking and doing your thing, but not everybody has that luxury. So but you do need to make sure it works, right. So practicing is, you know, an integral part. Well as, as do I cuz I'm like you I know a lot of words, oh, I got I want to push a button. I'm like, No, I want somebody there that can push the button and figure it out to make me look good. But even then, and that's one of I guess, you know, you learn through trials and tribulations, but the trial practice, you still better have belt suspenders and a few other things. Because I had a guy there with technology I had an expert on and we couldn't get the graphic up. Now I had backups of just, you know, small little grep. But at least I had something I could show him and show the jury, you know, and I, I got complimented by the judge afterward of she said, Well, you handled that really seamless, and I go well, not inside. I didn't okay, you know, but you've got to have that backup and be ready for just about anything. And again, one of the things that these students can learn is, it's also appearance sometimes, you know, I learned that as a young lawyer watching a guy was working for go sidebar came away smiling and whatnot. We went to break and I asked him, I said, Oh, that went well. He goes, I don't It was horrible. The judge ruled against him everything else. I go, well, it looked great. He goes, I know. And that's what I wanted to think that it all looked great. So again, more skill sets that are taught and litigation skills, right. Never let them see you sweat. That's right. Never a lot of sweets, you get a bad ruling. You just keep that you know, that poker face. And it's really important. It's important to learn that you know, and so you watch, not only students but when you watch real trials when you watch an attorney react to something going on in the courtroom in an unfavorable way the jury picks up on every single solitary thing they're watching to see like what's going on. So if you have a poker face, you know, sometimes things will happen that you think are horrific. And you just sit there and the jury never picks up on it because you didn't chew them in on something that you thought was bad a witness says something that you think is horrible, and they don't really pick up on it because you don't react but if you react they're for sure gonna know Oh, that was something really bad. They don't know what it is. They'll be like Oh, did you see your face? Yeah, now Now let's put some focus on it. You know it's almost it's that huge hesitation asking a judge you know to strike something that was said because then the judges frame it up again. Well, the witness said X does regard X, you know, you're like, Okay, well, that didn't work very well. Yeah. Now they really highlighted the fact that you didn't want that to come in. Right? Right. Can't unring the bell. So let's talk about this. You're obviously passionate about the practice of law, but you've always been and that's why I was thrilled to see you get appointed as the acting director, while all the law school goes through several machinations at this point, but But what is it that makes you passionate about teaching? You know, watching students grow and learn and seeing them develop, and then meeting them years later, and having someone come back to you and say, wow, you know, you really helped me, you know, you really it was, it was, you know, made a huge impression on me. I mean, I think that's invaluable. And I never really knew that it was something the teaching was something that I loved until, you know, I came to teach pre-trial, I taught pre-trial and trial, and let's go. So when I first started teaching pre-trial, I was like, wow, this is really great. I like that you get to connect with young students and kind of, you know, keep that youthfulness. And I have to say, you always learn something, as as much as you teach, you know, you think you're teaching a lot of times you're learning as well. So you know, the whole package is just really something that's extraordinary. 100 100%. And I mean, to me, I take lessons away all the time from that, in watching and watching the jurors and watching the interactions and getting what works, what doesn't so. So where now, while you're at the rains here for a little bit, so where is let's Gil's going I mean, what's the next evolution? I guess? Maybe the combination of virtual and technological and how does that grow? Yeah, so we're doing, you know, the virtual thing, limited now because now we're back in person, and we really want to teach those advocacy skills in person, but as I said, we are keeping virtual components of it. You know, we're also trying to, like, do a little more, you know, get some of our adjuncts involved in the program in different ways. So maybe doing like short, like lunchtime seminars on topics that we can also let young lawyers who out first, you know, like young associates, as you know, who need CLE credits or something. So we're investigating, doing things like that, to have like some seminars that are sponsored by the Skills Program, and maybe a local law firm. So we're looking to doing things like that, but let's go so it's more than just the main program because we also have a lit skills to the class. And we also do an externship program, where our students can become certified legal interns and practice in various, you know, and go literally work in various areas in the in, you know, in the county or even outside the county if it's during the summer. And so they become certified legal interns, they can work at the, you know, the State Attorney's Office, the public defender's office, you know, I think we have one students working at the Attorney General's Office. So they do, they go out and they literally work in the community. And, and in various aspects, they can actually speak in court, like, you know, whether with a supervisor, so it's an extraordinary experience for students. So that's one of the things that we do. Yeah, I think the externship program is a tremendous benefit that those who can partake in it. Because again, what we're seeing now is it's just extraordinarily difficult for a young lawyer to get in front of a judge to get court practice to conduct a trial. It just, doesn't happen. So we're going through those externship programs. And if you've got the ability to be able to go to the state attorney or the public defender and get in the courtroom, there's nothing better for a young litigators. Yeah, and, you know, listen is saying that, you know, that cases, not as many cases are going to trial, as, you know, as used to go to trial. So learning how to, you know, or a, you know, for civil litigators, we have a huge motion practice. So, they learn that skill, too. So that's hugely important. But yeah, cases aren't going to trial as much. So getting trial experience is huge. No question. No question. And then And then, of course, the best benefit of being an adjunct faculty member is the holiday parties, which isn't your house this year. So I, I can't wait to see you in a few weeks at that and see everybody else. Genie. It's, it's been an absolute pleasure. Clearly, this is one I don't think we've got to convince anybody to take you off the kill list. passionate, passionate, lawyer, passionate teacher, I think you're done a tremendous job in the litigation skills department. And obviously, it's something that's near and dear to my heart. So love to see it in your capable hands. Really appreciate you joining us this morning. Thank you, David. Thank you for having me. Of course. Alright Jeannie director for the litigation skills department at the University of Miami. I'm David Heffernan and we'll be back next week with another episode of First off let's kill all the lawyers.

First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan, I've been practicing personal injury law here in Miami and South Florida for nearly three decades. The goal behind this broadcast is to bring in other lawyers in varying fields and experiences to kind of maybe one by one start to take them off that kill list. And, and we can prove Shakespeare wasn't right in the 15th century, when he said it and everybody laughed about it. But my guest this morning, the only difficulty might be I think we can get him off the list. But he's a guy I know who oftentimes wanted to kill many lawyers, generally opposing counsel, but this morning, I'm really happy to introduce a very close friend of mine. Excellent, excellent lawyer. Andy Haffa. Thanks for having me on. So yeah, we're not going to ask you to take any lawyers off the list. Because I know, given you're passionate about your practice, and I will get into that. There's been times I've might have heard you out or a few things about killing other lawyers. So, we're going to try to table that and keep this more on the civil side of things. You and I've had many conversations about going back to trial by combat and how much better I would feel. And as badly as I would like to avoid being on anybody's hit list. I unfortunately, I found my way too many. And so as hard as you're going to work today, I don't know how successful you're going to be brother. All right. Well, I'm up for the test. So, let's see what we can do to get Andy off this list. Let's go back first and just talk about so you're a Miami native, correct? Well, basically, I we I've been here ever since I'm two I was born. My dad was in medical school in Richmond. And he when he moved down here for training, that's when I became a Florida native. Got it. Okay. So now though, tell me because your dad comes down here, very, very prominent surgeon knows me. Well, he's seen my insides. So, I got to give him credit for that as he took my appendix out, but Chief of Staff at Baptist I mean, many, many accolades, and just a top notch, top notch surgeon, great guy, and you go to law school. So where was where was that shift? And was there ever an interest in medical school? There still is. I was I was teaching at the middle school Medical School last night, believe it or not, okay. I ended up going to law school because my dad, who as you said, as a surgeon told me, he wouldn't do it again. And I took the L SATs and the MCAT. That's the test to get into medical school within a month of each other. And still, to this day, I entertained dreams of being a doctor. That's what I was always wanted to do. And I know I would have been a hell of a surgeon, that's for sure. No, no doubt about it. And but it's interesting because you go into law, and then followed by both of your brothers, Sam and Greg go into law who both have thriving careers. And we might have to get them on here. It might be easier to get off the list and you but we'll work on it. On those two so you get into the practice law. The other interesting thing about you so you and I go back three decades, because graduate, I always know how long you've been practicing. Because I got to figure out how long I have came out together, law clerk to different places together. But you're a little bit of a rarity in that. You went to a firm right out of law school. Grossman, a Roth at the time now Grossman Roth, yeah, often Cohen. But you've stayed there, the duration, you know, lawyers tend to start here, get a little experience here, kind of move and move around. So talk about that journey, because I think it's pretty fascinating that you've stayed there the whole time. And obviously, tremendous, tremendous firm. You know, nothing but great things to say about Stuart and Neil and everybody in that firm. And so you're a great, great fit and a great asset to that firm. But how is it that you wound up staying in the same place for 30 years? So I was blessed to have found Stuart and Neal, and they took a shot on me how and why I don't know. But my goal when I started with them was to learn how the best firm I could find thought so I could go back and defend physicians. I lived through a couple of lawsuits that I felt were unjustified. And so I figured if I could learn from the best plaintiffs firms, I could then jump back to the defense and defend these dogs. And when I saw the cases that Stuart Neal had, it was mind blowing. And I would bring this stuff home and talk to my dad. And he was shocked at the horrific care that existed then and unfortunately continues to exist in South Florida. And so I found my niche and I think we're able to make Florida a better place by hopefully forcing physicians to practice better and safer medicine. And so that's really sort of overshadowed my entire journey at Grossman Roth, and I feel as though I've, you know, sacrificed blood, sweat and tears there for 30 years. And when I started, we were for lawyers, we're now up to 12. And it's amazing the cases we've seen, the people we've touched and the lives that we hopefully have changed for the better. Well, let's talk about that a little bit too, because I know and it had to be difficult for you, given that your dad was a physician and a prominent physician, there seems to be sort of, sometimes almost a public image that, well, they're doctors, and they can't make mistakes. And I talk to people all the time. And I say, well, listen, they're professionals. Lawyers are professionals, contractors are professionals. You know, if you if you hire a guy to build your house, and half of it collapses, nobody ever has a hesitation, oh, I'm going to sue that guy. He did it wrong. But when doctors do that, everybody seems a little hesitant to venture into that. And so how was that sort of going back and forth with your dad. And obviously, I mean, I've fished with you many times with your dad and lots of other physician friends. And those were the circle friends. So how well was that sort of taken when you first started suing doctors as opposed to defending. So I think I brought a bit of fresh air to these physicians that felt that way, because they knew, given my background, given my history, given my father, that I was not going to simply throw a cast net, no pun intended, over everybody that had contact with that patient. If you're going to get sued, it's because you deserve to get sued. And it was a breach of the standard of care. And they knew that I understood that not every mistake was medical malpractice that was actionable. Not every bad outcome was medical malpractice that was actionable. And so I truly believe then, and I know, I continue that now I bring, I bring an extra level of screening to these cases, and I make sure if I'm going to do it, they should be brought. And these cases are just and righteous. And these doctors deserve to get sued. If they don't, I don't want to be part of. So, let's talk about that a little bit. Because we both been doing medical malpractice for a long time, the screening process because again, you know, you tell people, if you got hit by a car, we could file a lawsuit today, you know, and be litigating this case, when it is a medical malpractice case, talk about the extent of that screening process and what it has to go through to ensure that it is a meritorious case, first off on your standards, and then the legal standards of what has to be done before you can file a suit. So, there's a movie out there, the girl next door that I use this line all the time, you got to make sure that the juice is worth the squeeze. Medical malpractice cases, obviously, are extremely expensive to be brought, you have to have them reviewed by experts in every specialty of the folks that you're going to sue. So, it's not uncommon. Before I even know that I have a case that I've spent 5060 $100,000 on these cases. So, you've got to be very selective in the case of your brand. Obviously, you got to make sure that the damages on the back end, okay, justify spending those kinds of monies on the front, because I will tell you, at the end of the year, firms like yours and mine, we end up spending hundreds of 1000s, if not more dollars, on cases you've evaluated, you've investigated, and then you determine that there was no breach of the standard of care. And then unfortunately, something bad happened to this patient. But these doctors and health care providers did everything they could to care for these patients and bad things happen. And they do happen in the absence of malpractice. This is this is what we bring to the practice that understanding. And a lot of patients/clients don't understand just because something bad happened, why they don't have a case. So I hope I answered your question there, Dave. No, you did. You did. And I think that's one of the hardest things sometimes because it does have to be viewed as a business and at times, you have to look at the extent of the damages and what it would cost to bring that forward because it became it can become cost prohibitive for case. And that's a hard thing to explain to clients at times. But again, even harder sometimes because there is a bad outcome. That doesn't mean anybody was at fault. Okay, and that's not an easy decision to get to, nor a cheap one. So let's shift gears a little bit because I know that's one component of what you started. And I think really, back when you started Stuart Neil really emphasized in med mal, but that practice is really expanded. Now. While you still do med mal, there's a lot of other things you've gotten into from products liability to other significant cases. So, let's talk a little bit about what the overall practice had Grossman Roth, you and Cohen consists of now. So, when people ask me what we do, I tell them that we will handle any significant case there is any type of significant catastrophic plane train automobile construction litigation, we're involved in the surf side collapse. We were involved in the FIU Bridge collapse the Miami Dade Community College garage collapse, we've gotten involved in some very significant legal and accounting malpractice cases. We were involved in the citrus canker case, the bank overdraft cases. David's amazing as society changes and science advances, the stuff that comes up that you could never have dreamed of when you and I graduated law school ancestry.com 23. And me, we're now having cases that are coming up that you could not have even dreamed up kids that are 1617 years old that apply to these genetics' companies. And they find out that they're not they're not the natural children of their parents, mommy and daddy are not good. They thought they were, you know, yes, they are. They loved them. They raised them, and they treated them as their own. But Mistakes were made way back when parents were having a hard time conceiving. And so, we're now bringing those kinds of lawsuits against fertility specialists that made those kinds of mistakes. We've had other cases involving stem cell malpractice, for example, stem cells are cutting edge science. And they may well hold the cure for many illnesses for which there is no cure, but we're not there yet. And there are spas and clinics and chiropractors selling this stuff. And right now, it's no better than snake oil, and people are getting hurt. So, it's a crazy time in our world. And the types of cases we're seeing is limitless. And when you think you've seen it all, then something else comes walking in the door. Right? So it really is amazing. It is and you see this transition now. And you see going into lots of different doctors, everybody's going to rejuvenation medicine, you know, we all want to stay pretty and young and pain free. And you're right it is there are a lot of things that are I think, good science and good medicine that are heading in that direction. But there's a lot that there, there almost is no standard of care yet, because people are doing things they shouldn't be doing. Yeah, it's crazy. And the consumers need to be aware, they need to make sure they're going to quality physicians that are truly engaging in quality standard of care medicine, as opposed to using off label non-FDA approved medications. I got a case now where a lady went in to have some fat, you know, she thought she was going to have some liposuction, and they convinced her into having an injection where they inject basically an enzyme that lives or digests the fat. Well, the stuff they injected her was tainted with bacteria. And basically, it ate away in the back of her arms. And she needed to have the backs of her arms, both amputated. She's been through 25 different procedures. She has scarring, she basically has to take antibiotics for the rest of her life because she has what's equivalent to leprosy. And the spa, that did this had an eye doctor as a medical director, and it's an eye doctor injecting her arms with this stuff. So, it is the wild west right now. It's just crazy. And we get we get countless and it's heartbreaking. The plastic surgery clinics, Miami seems to be sort of the bastion for that. And when you look at them, the formula is really easy. The online presence is amazing. Okay, and tremendous. And then you come down here, and it's a storefront clinic somewhere, you know, and these people get horribly, horribly butchered, you know, they fly back to the state they're from, and unfortunately, there's no coverage on the clinic, there's no coverage on the doctors and these poor people have just been totally, totally taken advantage of. And it's a horrible thing to have to deal with. But we get calls almost weekly on those cases. Yeah. And it's not going to go away until the FDA and the other licensing bodies take control and they shut them down or somebody goes to jail. That's not going to stop, you and I are going to continue to stay busy. And the one the one issue I continue to have that I cannot stress enough is how unfair the free kill law is as it relates to the medical malpractice world, right? Obviously, you need to recognize survivor if somebody dies by health care, fraud by a healthcare provider, and there's no surviving spouse or no child under the age of 25. If that same person was killed in a plane, train or automobile, that family would have a cause of action. But in a malpractice setting by a healthcare provider, there's nobody, there's nothing that you can do for them. And they don't understand why that life is worth less than the malpractice. I think that it is in the general liability setting. It's not right and it's not fair. It's not and it's as you know, and I mean, it's been challenged and it's probably the most difficult conversation I've ever had with clients when you get that situation is to say, Listen, there, there may be, you know, a cause of action there, this doctor may have killed your mom or your dad or whoever, but if there's no spouse, and there's no minor child, by law, they've carved that out and successfully. So, but let's talk about that a little bit. Because I know I know you and your firm have done it. And it's every pie lawyer that I know. You know, the goal is, obviously, you know, the first goal is win that case. Okay. But the bigger goal is to bring about change. And if you look, society wise, the change that has come about is often driven by personal injury lawyers. I mean, you look at and I always use an example, the sexual scandal within the Catholic Church. You know, when that first started, oh, it was an American thing. Oh, it was this it was. And it was trial lawyers that kept pushing that and pushing that, and now they pulled back the curtain. And you see what's been exposed is absolutely horrific. But it's only because of that change through civil courts, and lawyers to talk about some of the cases you've dealt with. I know agriculturally. You've been before Congress on things to talk about changes for migrant workers in the fields. Talk about that aspect of your practice and how satisfying that is. So, the case you're referencing is Carlito Kandel area. And that little boy now is 17 years old. When he was an infant, I was called out to a Mokulele to try and help this family. He was born to migrant parents that were smuggled into the United States from Mexico. They were basically indentured servants. And they were exposed to pesticides in the tomato fields that were known to cause birth defects. This poor lady gets pregnant, she's ingesting and sprayed with these pesticides, and the baby's born with no arms and no legs. And so, when I went out there and met this little boy, he was sitting in a bouncy seat in a trailer park. Living in a one-bedroom trailer, there were 16 people living in this one-bedroom trailer, there were little puppies that had been born in the trailer park that were nipping at this child and he was screaming, and obviously, he had no limbs he couldn't fight back. And it was that scene, seeing him unable to do anything to defend himself, that made me commit to try and help him. So, I began to look long and hard about what I could do to try to help that child. And I knew I couldn't sue on behalf of the parents because they were illegal, and immigration would be called. And they were called multiple times through that case, I had, I had to hide these people literally for two years. I couldn't sue on behalf of the parents, you all said workers compensation laws and immunities that prevented doing something on their behalf. But they could not block the case on behalf of the child. And so that's what I did, I bought a brought a straight premises liability claim against the owner and controller and operator of the farms to to represent that child as it relates to the pesticides that he was sprayed with through his mother while in utero. And really to get that case changed, we get the case resolved. But more importantly, we changed everything in terms of how these people were treated. Day for decades, we got to see it's truly modern day slavery. It continues to this day, unfortunately. But they change the labeling, they change the type of pesticides that are being used. And I got to see this child, believe it or not, again, he's now 17. Last week, he is a thriving junior in high school, he's a straight A student, he's got plans to go to college, he wants to be an engineer, we built in my house, we put a trust together. So, the monies will be there to take care of him for the rest of his life. This kid is going to do big things, I just can't wait to see what he's going to do. And but for our system, and the work of those of us that are on these kill lists, okay, he wouldn't have a future and I was I was blessed to have been connected with him. He's made me a better lawyer and a better person, and I can't wait to see what he's going to do. Yeah, there is no greater satisfaction than seeing the results that you've done helping somebody thrive like that. And I've got a young girl now who again, nobody thought she'd ever walk talk there, we're going to put her in a nursing home. She's walking, she's talking, she's functioning, she's communicating. And she's getting better every day. And this is, you know, four years ago that this occurred. So, when you see those things, I mean, that to me is the greatest satisfaction is helping those clients that that didn't have a voice and nobody was going to give them a voice until somebody like you comes along and helps. So, you can see, and I can hear the passion in your voice. You've been doing this for 30 years. What keeps you passionate about it, what continues to drive you every day. When I see a child or a family that's been wronged and is suffering and is in need. That's truly what does it and the hope that we can make it safer and better and prevent these things from happening is what drives me. I will tell you, yes, the satisfaction that you and I get from seeing that little girl who's now walking and talking, or this child who's going to have a future. It's so gratifying. But I will also tell you, Dave, and I know you do a lot of teaching, my efforts to get into the medical schools, is my back my back around my behind the scenes approach of trying to make those changes, I told these medical students last night, if I can educate you, and prevent and avoid these cases, from coming through my door, that I know I've made a significant change, I want you to think twice before you act, I want you to think twice about how it's going to affect that patient, and ultimately, that family, and you're going to be a better doctor, you're going to avoid getting sued, and patients are not going to be harmed. So, I think it's a twofold approach that we're now taking, both in terms of exposing and fighting for those that have been injured. But on the prevention side, I'm getting in the backdoor through the medical schools trying to make it a safer place. And to make these guys, these guys and gals better doctors. Well, and that's tremendous. Because you're right, those changes can have such a big impact. And one of the things I've talked to people in the medical profession and they're terrified, I think sometimes of communication. And I can't tell you how many times I've gotten calls, and there's no malpractice or anything else. But people just wanted answers. Nobody's talking to them. And again, if those med students and those people in the hospitals and risk management would have communication with these patients, before lawyers got involved, a lot of times that's going to peace, they just want an answer to a mystery, it's oftentimes same thing, you know, people come to us first time in a lawsuit, they've never been involved in a lawsuit, we've got to be able to explain to them, what's going to happen, not just hey, just sit back, we're going to take care of this, you'll be fine. People want that information. And that's what's lacking often can't the candor be that old school medicine where the doctor would sit down and talk to the family and the patient, listen to what they're saying. But more importantly, tell them the truth. This is what happened. This is why it happened. If you made a mistake, you come clean people can accept mistakes. Sure, what they can accept is if you make a mistake, and you try and sweep it under the rug, and then something bad happens, and then it becomes a mountain where you're fighting over this thing. And once the truth comes out, there's no defending that. 100%. So let's shift gears a little bit more things. We've talked to everybody since we started this show. We've, I won't say we've come through a pandemic, because I don't think we're there yet. But we're certainly heading in the right direction. Talk about the impact that COVID has had on your practice, not only the volume and what you do in practice wise, but the nature of how you practice what your firm has done to become more adaptable, because I think there's a lot of very positive things that have come out of this. To make us better lawyers, there's been some negative things clearly to but to make us better lawyers, and to make us more efficient at what we do. So what is Grossman Roth, you often call and how did you guys deal with a pandemic and are dealing with it, I guess, still today. So, I will tell you that the pandemic has made me a more efficient lawyer, if you will, prior to there was so much time wasted running to and from hearings and getting on airplanes to go to expert depositions, and things of that nature, we're now able to do all of that by zoom like you and I are talking right now. And I don't think a lot of that is ever going to go back to the way it was I think that's a big positive. Some of the negatives are, I don't think there's any substitute for being in that room with my clients and being able to hug them and console them. When you're in one of those emotional moments. And it's going to happen by the nature of the cases we handle in the practices we have. I think that's what makes you and I are so effective at what we do. We're empathetic, we're fathers, we're husbands we appreciate. We're humans. And when you see somebody suffering, there is no substitute for being able to give that person a hug, and console them and to stop it as opposed to trying to do that. From long distance. I don't like that at all. When I'm taking an expert deposition, I also would much rather be in person as opposed to doing it by zoom. Obviously, the COVID has affected our trial practice. I'm desperate to get back into that courtroom. But if we're doing our job right and thank God we have been the preparation is such that these cases have continued to resolve trials are starting to resume we're getting trial dates and still keep are resolving, and I'm happy to see that. But I don't have the control that I used to have, I used to be able to tell a client, when I met them, within 18 months, I'm going to be giving you a hug and wishing you well, your case is going to be over one way or the other. We can't do that anymore, because everything is so backed up. And lastly, COVID has made me a better person, I think in terms of being around more for my wife and kids and being able to appreciate the hearing the now because prior to COVID, I was like you a million miles a minute airplanes, courtrooms, hearings, on the car, in the car driving to and from Naples constantly. Now I'm home and I'm president and I'm able to enjoy them. And I think that's been a big plus for me. And certainly, that's a huge thing. And I got to give you props, because you go back and you look at the people you surround yourself with. You know, Mark Caron, I can't partners were longtime friends, same class as you. But I look at Mark, again, still married to his first wife, you know, I'm still married to my first one, you're still married your first wife, three kids. And I think those things having that continuity and stability in your life. And those values of what's important, really do translate to being an excellent trial or because what people forget is, you know, it's attorney slash counselor. And there's a lot of counseling that goes on in these cases, just like you said, to be able to do it in person is a huge aspect of it. Because this is a, you know, the people that come see us, their lives have been totally disrupted. And they're never going to be normal again. And we can only normalize them, to the extent that our system helps normalize it via you know, money, benefits and everything else and to change the quality of their life. But anyway, we're running down on time, you're a guy that I think we've now been able to take off the list because I think people see the passion, the compassion, the empathy, and the desire that you still have, it's clear to see burns in you 30 years into this, you know, you're still chomping at the bit to do the same thing every day. And so, Andy, pleasure, love catching up with that. We could do this for a long, long time. But I think I think generally other than opposing counsel, I've got you off all those lists. Okay. So, I appreciate it, my friend. Thank you for your efforts. And I hope you're half right. If I get off one list. You've been successful today, brother. Thanks for having me on. There we go. My pleasure. My pleasure. Give my best to the family. That's another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. We'll be back next week. Thanks.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan, and I've been practicing personal injury law here for 30 years in South Florida goal behind this show, and we named it after the Shakespeare quote, although a lot of people argued that that was a compliment to lawyers, people still chuckled pretty loudly when it was. And when you talk to people today, they still think maybe not a bad idea to kill all the lawyers. So, the goal here today is to bring in other South Florida lawyers, different areas of law, kind of educate some people on it, maybe one by one, we can kind of take some people off the kill list. So, my guest this morning is a great, great friend been for the last 30 years. And a truly fantastic lawyer who does a lot of things that I know nothing about. So, this is definitely going to be entertaining, because I'm going to get to learn along but let me bring in Dan Newman, a partner Nelson Mullins. Dan, how are you? Great today, and hopefully I'm going to get off that kill list by the end of this show. Slowly, why did we get oh, yeah, the majority at least I don't know, we get everybody off that list with you. But we can get the majority of so. So, Danny, let's go back and talk. You went to George Washington, you studied finance? What was the path and why go to law school? Was that something that was always going to be done or had that come about? So, when I went to college, I thought I was going to go into the investment field investment banking or something investment-related. I was a finance major you said, Bachelor of Business Administration, I took a business law class and in my business, curriculum and undergrad, and that really gave me a passion for the law. I had a great, great teacher and, and he taught us about contracts and about business deals and about litigation and how disputes arise and how there are different arguments, and how to be an advocate. And that was fascinating to me. And so, after my junior year in college, I decided that I wanted to go to law school. And I wanted to be able to combine those two passions, the finance end, and the legal end, I knew I wanted to be a litigator, I knew that that was probably the best fit for my personality. And so that's, that's how it came about. Alright, so that now at least gives me an explanation as to how you know about contracts, because you and I had the same contracts teacher at University of Miami law school. And I don't think we learned a whole lot about contracts in that class. But we'll leave that alone for now. We had a lot of laughs, though. So, we become friends in law school, you get out of law school, you take a job with the SEC, and I think oh my god, that's fantastic. He's working for college football. Wasn't that sec. So, you go to New York for the Securities Exchange Commission. Let's talk about that. Because I think that's kind of fascinating. It was a great opportunity. It came about unexpectedly, there was the opportunity there. It was a bad time during that period of time, it was there was a banking crisis going on. And there was there was a little downturn in the economy. And someone told me there was an opportunity to go work at the SEC. That was a passion of mine. It was financed, it was securities, I took securities law in college, and learned about the securities laws learned about business and finance and tried to take courses fit for that, in law school. And as well as the securities class of law school, went up to the SEC interviewed, extremely passionate about what they did, what they do and continue to do. There they are, you know, they essentially are the overseer of our financial markets in many different ways. And I went up and I worked for what's called the enforcement division of the SEC. And our job was to enforce the securities laws. So, we would investigate potential violations and enforce those through legal actions, many cases settled or they go to trial. And, you know, in the process of that, I learned a tremendous amount, fascinating cases, everything from insider trading, which everyone hears a lot about financial filing fraud, where companies may file inaccurate information about what their numbers really look like, and people rely upon that and broker-dealer, misconduct to I mean, anything that could be a fraud in connection with securities markets, we went out we would, that would be an aim of ours to investigate and potentially prosecute, enforce the laws. Which, which again, I think is fascinating, because it's something that we all sort of know a little about, you know, we hear the Bernie made offs and things like that, and the scams, but But little things like you're talking about where information might intentionally be wrong, and that misleads investors and things like that. So I mean, just the scope of that enforcement, How broad is the SEC and how much, I guess, d a catch. I mean, you know, everybody is it's sort of like the IRS, you know, how everybody cheats on their taxes. You know, but a lot of these companies do and how broad is that enforcement? So, the enforcement is and I should say it's civil enforcement, the the Department of Justice enforces criminally prosecutes, and a lot of times there are, they work together because the facts are the same. But it is, as you said, there's a lot going on out there and the agency can't go after everyone can catch everything that's going on. So it tries to essentially go after cases that are going to have an impact on others. And they show the areas that are there, areas that they really want to make sure that people aren't engaging in misconduct aren't defrauding people. And that actually changes by each chairman of the SEC, you'll see different areas where their focus may be. So, when I was there, because of the banking crisis, I go back to that a lot of the enforcement was directed to bank holding companies, they were public companies that held these banks, and all these banks held real estate on their books at levels that just wasn't accurate. They were way overinflated. So, their financials look great, but it wasn't really the case. And so that was a big, big pet peeve of the chairman of the SEC at that time. And also, insider trading was always big, you just come off of hearing about cases of Michael Milken and others like that there were a lot of insider trading cases out there. So those were big, and there was, you know, a lot of the enforcement, the enforcement division is not, it's not huge, but it's pretty substantial. And they're enforcement attorneys throughout the country in different offices. And you see those big cases, and they're meant to tell people to look, the SEC is out there, they're looking to enforce, don't go sideways, you know, with the law don't even try and go up to the edge. I mean, look, you know, they can even ultimately, and I know it's DOJ but you know, take down Martha Stewart. So, you know, I mean, you could do insider trading and Snoop Dogg and Martha Stewart gets interesting. Yeah, it's an insider trading, those are tough cases, the fascinating things about those from when no matter what side you're on, but if you're in the SEC, it's like a puzzle, you try and put pieces of the puzzle together, you may see that there was a lot of trading before a big announcement and the stock rose as a result of the announcement or the event, whatever it may have been, maybe there was the announcement of a merger with another company. And then you take a look at okay, who you know, what was going on with the trading? Why was there all this trading the day before the announcement, and then you try and look at who is trading and then try and figure out how they may or may not have known something, you know, look at phone records, calendars, relationships. And so they are fascinating cases. And there, there are so many of them that just have amazing facts. I mean, fascinating fact patterns, really on how people may have gotten the information. I mean, the bottom line now is today, two things are so sophisticated. There are so many ways to determine how information flowed and where money's flowed that and communications, that, that there are a lot of ways to catch folks. So a little unrelated to that. But I mean, and I just read another article this morning. So you go back and, and Gamestop basically seems to get manipulated through social media and goes through the roof. And now apparently Bed Bath and Beyond as something similar that's going on? How does that tie into things? And I mean, you know, without getting into a legal opinion, but that effect of social media sort of playing with the market? What are your thoughts on that? It is, and it was actually in the SES study that just came out recently on that. And, you know, the, what, what the SEC and others were looking for is Was this some type of, you know, group effort, some type of mass manipulation that was spearheaded and the group move. But you know, they're what you have now, as you have a lot more retail investors in the market, because of, because of broker-dealers like Robin Hood and others, you have people who never traded before in the market. And they're also out there on these blogs talking about things and talking about concepts and they're moving, they are moving the stocks. And but it's not necessarily illegal, it could be if it's an organized effort to do that, to manipulate the stock, but it's difficult, it's difficult to know whether that's the case, but if it was, and if there were people that were at spearheading that, that would be illegal if that could be shown that it was happening. The other concept you have you're not to get too technical is you have what's called a lot of short-sellers out there on these stocks. And what happens is, if a stock price starts going up, there's a short squeeze, which means that the short sell was the people who sold the stock and don't own it are saying and their goal is to basically if you sell the stock short, you think the price is going down, you're going to sell it high and then try and buy it back low. And that's where your profit is. If the stock price is going up, you have to cover that short sell. And that's what happens. A lot of them start covering and that drives the price even higher and drives the momentum and the volume of the stock even higher. They're very interesting. So let's, let's take the wealth of what you learned from the SEC. And you come back now to South Florida. Talk about that transition. What brought you back here So what ultimately brought me back here is, is my fiancee at the time and now wife was a Floridian and she, she really liked living in Florida. And I really liked Florida and I had great friends down here like yourself and just really liked the lifestyle down here. So, I came back down, I was looking for a firm that would give me the opportunity to do both business litigation, contracts, breach of contract tortious interference, breach of non compete, you know, business fraud, come while called commercial divorces, right to partners in a business don't get along, and things like that, and allow me to do the securities work from the other side. And so that I came down. And I started working with a firm called at that time it was called and Garcy Pedroza and it gave me the opportunity to do that and hold my litigations by Business Litigation skills, and learn construction litigation as well. So it was just a great opportunity for me to accomplish all that, you know, and have the access to be able to learn new areas of law, because I think you always want to keep learning. Well, 100% and we have to give props to Stephanie, who is a badass prosecutor in her own right, who's had a tremendous legal career, maybe we'll have to get her on because it'd be very interesting to have a prosecutor on so you can tear up for that, because I'm going to call her I will. I will. Alright, so you come down now. Now what I'm fascinated about is so you come down and the firm you start with is not a huge firm. Now things have sort of evolved and you've kind of gone the gambit, because we'll get to Nelson Mullins, but now you're part of an 800 Lawyer firm with 25 locations throughout the country. But talk about that transition midsize firm, bigger firms, to a very, very large firm now what's the difference in the practice of law. So the difference is in the when I went to what was tuned Garcy Pedro's ultimately was to Cardenas, in the end, by the time I had left was what we call boutique litigation firm, it did very high-end Business Litigation at a very sophisticated high-end level. But you could represent you had a lot more flexibility on who your clients may or may not be right because as lawyers, we always have to check for conflicts that no one else in our firm represents the other side that we may be in litigation with. But it really gave me the opportunity what and what I still think was the greatest thing is, you know, it puts your feet to the fire right away, you're either you know, you pour the cement on the shoes, you're going to sink or swim or learn, you run it the cases where lean and mean it was a partner and an associate, and you had to be familiar and know everything and you had to jump in and, and learn how to be a litigator, you know, right away and learn by doing which I still you know, there, there are different theories on that. But you know, you always want people that are overseeing you and mentoring you and teaching you but it's a great one at a young age, you have the opportunity to do things like that, that was great about the government, they gave me the opportunity to a lot more than a private firm would have when I first went out and this firm to tune Garcy Pedroza gave me the opportunity to do a lot of things early on, exposed me to a lot of things, and I had to learn, I had to become, you know, knowledgeable about and learn things I didn't know about and forcing me into that situation was great for me personally. And that's one of the difficulties I think young lawyers face. And I talk to my students about that a lot. You know, it's very difficult now, as a litigator, to get into the courtroom, to get cases where you're actually going to be able to get in there. And why I tell a lot of them, much like you went to the government there, you know, if you can state attorney, the public defender, that's a good way to get a practice of being in court, because part of the problem now is there are less and fewer trials. And then clients want the big dog to try the case. They don't want to handle it to some underling. And, and so it does get more and more difficult. So, you're blessed in that regard to have really gotten that baptism of fire. It was great, I got to work with terrific people. And in about 10 years after getting there I moved to a firm called Broughton Caselle, which was a Florida firm that had been around for at that point in time, probably more than 60 years. And that was bigger firm was a Florida-based firm, but we have offices all throughout the state. So going into a bigger organization. It didn't necessarily change my practice area. And what I did accept it basically, the clients became a little bit bigger. And some of the cases that we may have dealt with at the old firm because of conflicts we could no longer do. And then in 2018 Brian Kursaal merged with Nelson Mullins and now Samoens is a national firm and it's been a great merger very, you know, very similar corporate philosophies. You know, the way the way people look the the people have similar outlooks, they're very entrepreneurial, but With a big firm, obviously, there's, you know, there's more administration. And there's more potential for conflicts you always have because other people are representing other, you know, other folks. And when you have 100, plus lawyers, there's a potential that someone else is representing someone who may be adverse to your potential client. But the amazing thing is, in a big firm like this, and the resources, we have every practice area, I have people with expertise in everything. So, whenever I have questions, I have all kinds of people I can go to, to, you know, to talk about issues. And, you know, the greatest thing and one of the greatest things about practicing was talking to people and getting other ideas, even about cases and about facts and about the law. And when no matter what we do, there are other areas of law, that impact on the case, you know, you may be doing a contract case, but there may be healthcare issue in that contract, there may be a HIPAA issue, you know, on whether certain documents can be disclosed, and how they have to be protected. So, it's great to have that, that wealth of knowledge to be able to go to or you may have a client that is a litigation client that wants to do a real estate transaction, and you have people that will handle that end of it. So, it's been great, very calm, you know, complimentary, as far as the people that I work with, I'm really very lucky in that regard. Fantastic. Well, yeah, Mark, Mark, and I have a very complex conflict check, I asked him, Hey, do you have a conflict with this, he asked me to have a conflict, that pretty much covers it. And then from there, but you bring up a great point, and, and, you know, with a pandemic, and a lot of people started working remotely. And I've talked to a lot of lawyers about this. And, you know, lawyers have the ability to function and working remotely. And we've seen that with a lot of firms. But what's missing from that is, I think what you just alluded to, it's the dialogue of being able to maybe walk down the hallway to talk to somebody else and bounce ideas off of them, or talk to somebody in a different field, that sort of is gone. I mean, it's there, you can do it technologically. But I think a lot of that sort of natural organic things that happened at a law firm, have been kind of taken away from the pandemic, and it's going to be very interesting to see where things go. So what have you guys done? You know, Are you fully back in the office? Are you hybrid? Or what are you doing? So we are, I would say, we're a little bit of a hybrid, you know, technically the goal is to have people back in the offices, but you know, different people have different situations and different comfort levels. And so, and people may have a situation where they have someone at home that's compromised, or they, you know, during the pandemic, they may have had childcare issues where kids weren't in school. So it brought up a whole host of issues. So we are, we're hybrid, mostly, most of our offices are out with most of the people in the office. But that's not the case at all offices. And in some offices, we have most of the people working are a good number of people, I should say, working remotely. For me, personally, I'm a dinosaur, I always. So, I never stopped coming into the office. I like being in the office, I do better work in the office when I'm separated from being home. And I like to collaborate with people. So when the cases that I was working on the people I was working with, we were in the office, so we were having that collaboration, we were having that discussion when an idea came up, I would go down the hall and I would talk to my colleague and say, look, what do you think about this? What about that? Here's what I think we should do? Let's try it or what do you think of this document I just found take a look at this, or, Hey, you know, the witnesses coming in for a case and I don't think you can work with a witness unless they're with you. For me, it's much better than in front of me. So, you know, the way I would have witnesses always come in to talk with them. And you know, and meet with them. Because I like that, you know, that approach to me is the best way to do it. It's hard to replicate that video. It's not impossible, and some people are great at it. But for me, it just worked better with having that collaboration. I think we're social creatures as especially as litigators, right. We like to be with people. We like to bounce ideas off. And that's when we do our best work when we're talking to other people. 100% And we were blessed in that regard in that with a small firm, and we had adequate space. We gave people the option, but yeah, pretty much from day one. I was able to go back in the office, I'm going to park my car, go up the elevator, bring my lunch with me. But there was something about sort of the mechanism of driving to the office, going to the office being in the office. And then yeah, the ability to kick things around because I don't know about you I often find just verbalizing something. I'll talk to Mark about it. I'll be going back and forth. And when I hear it out loud, I either go oh, that's going to work or Oh, that's really dumb. Without even getting feedback, you kind of sorted out yourself but but yeah, alone sort of on your keyboard. That's a lot harder to do. It is tough. I mean it for me, it is tough when you can, when you can verbalize when you can bounce around ideas when you can, you know, sit with other people, and sometimes just thinking, you know, sometimes it happens at social conversation, you do not even need to talk about the particular case, but then you have an idea and you're like, you know, what do you think about this, and it makes a world of difference, I think, to be able to do that. And so the pandemic raised the, you know, a lot of interesting issues, though. And, you know, for it did cause the, you know, disruption in some regards, still has with, you know, anyways, and but I do think some great things came out of I mean, motion calendar for state court, non-evidentiary hearings, motion calendars, probably the greatest thing to do on Zoom, it's five minutes, you're not going to the courthouse, it saves the clients money, it saves the attorneys time, it's a win-win for everybody. And, you know, we were allowed to come in at the beginning of the Panda, even though the courts, you know, have been remote. And although they're getting back to, you know, having trials, because apparently some lawyer must have written the Dade County ordinance, it said the lawyers were essential personnel and could come into business, even during the shutdown. So I'll leave it to the lawyer to find the loophole to get everybody there in the midst of a pandemic, but, but we've talked about in the past, and I do give a lot of credit, really, the South Florida judiciary, but But I mean, a lot of the state court judges and what they did here in Dade County, they were on the, on the front of a lot of this. And so yeah, those zooms, the efficiency and use of time for the court and the lawyers and to the benefit of the client to have a motion calendar where everybody can be sitting at their office, you know, and knock out a five minute as opposed to going to the courthouse being down there. So it has been and I think you're right, we'll draw a lot of interesting things out of that. I want to ask you about something because again, another concept that I find fascinating with what you do. And again, I heard you were going to be receiving that, well, he's not that tall. But you know, maybe he could make it in the league. And I know you're a hockey player, but talk about the concept of a receivership. Because I know that's part of what you've done. And you've done it in some literally hundreds of millions of dollar transactions that have gone on what is what is a receiver do and how does that come about. So, a receiver basically comes in at the, at the order of a court generally in cases. So, there are many instances where many situations where it can come about. And actually, in Florida, we have a statute called the Uniform Commercial Real Estate receivers to act for property cases where a court can appoint a receiver, it had been equitable in nature. Before that, in a lot of ways in that the courts have the equal power to appoint a receiver, the receiver comes in in a very broad, high-level receiver will come in, and the receiver will essentially be put in charge of a situation whether it's a group of companies or a business. And the idea of the receiver basically, is to make the best decision for that, for that business or that or that property. In the Florida Statute. in federal court, many times, a federal judge will appoint a receiver, the SEC, or the FTC, or CFTC, will sue somebody for fraud, maybe they were maybe there was a Ponzi scheme that was going on. And they will say, Judge, we need to have the agency will say we need to have received or appointed. So the herd can marshal the assets is kind of one of the points that the phrases that's used a lot, that means there's a lot of people that have been defrauded here, let's find out what assets are still there, because assets evaporate and those fraud cases, Marshal those assets, figure out how to recover additional monies for the benefit of the estate. And ultimately, hopefully, for those, you know, defrauded investors in that type of situation. In a property situation, it's trying to figure out the best way to continue, you know, to run that property, collect the rents make and there are other parties involved, there may be a bank that has a mortgage in it. And then a lot of times it can come about by, you know, the bank action. So the receiver comes in in Florida and we have statutes that allow folks to recover monies for called fraudulent transfers. And that means if something has been at a very high level transferred without value to try and either defraud creditors or for you know without value at a time when the entity was insolvent, and the receivers a lot of times will bring what are called callback cases in these fraud case and say, You know what, you got paid out money, but you know, John Smith over here, didn't get paid out money and they're down that money, you got paid out more than you put in. So that money has to come back to the estate to be divvied out or I was receiver over a group of companies in the healthcare industry. At one point in time. We actually kept operating those companies and ultimately gave the defrauding shareholders interests in those companies, as well as pursuit litigation, recover additional monies to distribute out to those folks to try and make them as you know, get them as much money back as possible. ball or in this situation, like I said the property to keep the property running to put it back on its feet, make sure it's been administered responsibly. And then the report to the court. So you're sort of appointed by the court and then work for the court, correct back and say, here's how we sort of assessing it. But it's fascinating because it it gets to be I guess, so multi-technical, because you talk about, you know, the drawbacks. Well, all of those sort of spun off into their own almost little litigation. Right. Right. They are each their own separate litigation. I mean, you try and do without litigation. And but if you can't, you will pretend it's the appropriate case. And the facts of the law are on your side, you did some litigation and litigation maybe for other things in addition to the drawbacks, you know, in connection with those cases, but the business background, at least for me, was a great asset in serving as a receiver and representing receivers. Because understanding how businesses work, even financial statements and an operations and having that law degree background of you know, of issue spotting was a great combination, because ever see everywhere, a lot of hats, you're reporting, you're appointed by the court, you report to the court, you're essentially you know, working for the court, and trying to do the best you can to get money back for the investors or right to ship, if it's some other type of receivership. But it is you wear a lot of hats here, you know, trying to litigate, you're trying to potentially run a business and keep the business if it's a viable business, you want to keep that business running, and hopefully spin it off on the other side of the receivership. So, it can continue to be a viable business just because something bad happened, the business may be, it may still be a good idea. And there may be value to it. And you don't want to, you want to try and protect as many people as you can, you know, employees and things like that also. So, you wear a lot of hats. And it's a fascinating process. Well, you're also I would guess, a little bit of a King Solomon, and that you're trying to sort of balance the fairness in that versus what you're spending sort of scorched earth to go after everybody out there when, you know, yeah, I guess you've got to make a determination, what ultimately is recoverable, so that you're not just wasting resources chasing something and not being able to recoup? Now, great. It's a great point. I mean, you have to make economic decisions the whole time, you may have a great case, but you may not be able to recover $1, you may get a piece of paper if you want, that doesn't make a lot of sense. So you have to make economic decisions on what is, you know, going to be the best use of usually very limited resources that you have, and so that you're constantly making those decisions. And that's both on deciding whether to bring a case, whether it's Bible, whether it's collectible, and whether to settle a case, you know, and what levels make sense because of the same determinations. So what do you find, and it may not, you may not be able to sort of tell me an average, but in cases that you've been involved in and have others, where there's a receivership and a lot of people have been defrauded to us what sort of percentage do you see of recovery for the people that were defrauded? You know, is it a 30? Is it a 50? Is it a 10? You know, where does that sort of rank out? It really depends. Each case is different on the cases that I've seen, or the cases that I've watched others be involved in, I mean, it, you know, unfortunately, there are some cases where there's no money, the money is it is gone, it has been stolen, it has been sent offshore, and there may and it may be very limited on who you may be able to pursue to recover monies and it doesn't you don't have the resources or it doesn't make economic sense, all the way to, you know, cases like in the making off litigation, there were significant dollars that were recovered for invest. Now, there was one very big recovery out of Florida, actually, that was in the multiple billions of dollars that, you know, helped that a lot. I've had a receivership where we've been north of you know, we're north of 50%. You know, usually, so it runs the gamut. It can be it really it generally is never and very, very, very rarely ever anything close to 100, we usually see them trend somewhere between five cents to 25 cents in the area. That's why we're real proud of the one where we're north of 50% on the dollar, and we're still going at present, but each case depends on the facts on what assets may be there and what claims may be available and who you can bring those claims against them. How you know whether you can recover anything from those folks, so they collectible. Well, Danny, listen, we could talk about this because I'm fascinated by it. Because again, something I know very little about. And so to kind of learn this and see the scope of what goes on is really fascinating. But unfortunately, we're running out of time but I think we've established enough, you know, given your expertise and you're just a good guy too, you know, that we might be able to move you off the kill list. And so hopefully we'll get a general consensus on that. Well, I appreciate that. And I really thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak with you today. First of all, you know, I love speaking with you in general. So it's always great to see you. And, you know, it's a great conversation this morning. So thanks for giving me the opportunity. And anytime, and I will also point out to Danny is what's your role now and in the alumni. The income I will be I am the president-elect. So next year, I will be the incoming president of the US law Alumni Association. Fantastic. And I'm blessed along with Danny and others that we've got a core of people that got three decades hard, hard to believe, graduated from law school three decades ago, that still call each other friends, which is great, get together frequently. And more importantly, I'm able to pick up the phone and get some really good advice from you, which I rely on and often do. Now, same here, and the stories that our dinners keep getting better. Same story. The lies, the lies get longer, the stories get better. Yeah, it is. It is it would be fun to chat it out, you know, the 10 and 2030. Because it is the same story. But it's amazing how 30 years and now it's a much better story than it was. It is amazing. We've got a cast of characters and I appreciate it. Danny really appreciate spending time today. Partner Nelson Mullins fantastic firm that seems to be growing and growing. And just good luck with all of that and we will definitely see you soon my friend. Thank you very much. Thanks again. I'll talk to you soon. You got it. All right. That's it for this week. Next week. We will continue on our quest not to kill all the lawyers. Have a great week and we'll see you next time!

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. That phrase Shakespeare wrote back in the 15th century that was uttered by Dick the butcher to raucous laughter and applause, which today still people kind of go…. not a bad idea. Although one of the things I love about it now this show is getting a little bit of traction, I get all these calls from lawyers saying “you know, that was actually a flattering thing”. I think today, they still might laugh and think killing all lawyers is a good start. I'm David Heffernan and I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for the past 30 years now, which is scary to think about. The goal behind these shows is to bring in lawyers from varying walks of life and fields of practice, and talk about different areas of law, get to know some of these lawyers a little bit, and maybe one by one, we'll just start checking a few of these people off of the kill list. And my guest this morning, and I'm just absolutely thrilled to have because we had dinner with a lot of our classmates last night from 1991, graduating class at UVM Law School, which is where I met this gentleman. We've been friends for 30 years, one of my best friends, and one of the top maritime and Admiralty lawyers in the country. Chip Birthisel. Thanks, Dave, that's awfully nice stuff to say. And I wouldn't come on before because I didn't want to be killed. Well, the goal here today is maybe we get you moved off that list, one at a time. So, one of the things that I think is fascinating about you, and I want to get into what maritime and Admiralty law is, and everything else, and again, that's, we could spend a week talking about it. But one of the things I think is amazing about you is your story. And I and I want to go back, I want to go way back to a 17-year-old kid that wasn't quite sure where he was going in life. Was he going to be a dropout surfer? What was he going to do and, and made a pretty critical decision? So, talk about the decision you made at 17. And then I want to talk about the benefits that came out of that. Well, it's kind of funny, I at 17, I was dropped out of high school. I didn't see myself really going anywhere. My parents, I was fifth-generation Floridian my parents made the mistake to move me to Fort Worth, Texas, which was a long way from the coast that was a young surfer kid who lived up in Cocoa Beach, Florida. So, we went out to Texas, I didn't like it a whole lot, I figured the best way to get out of there would be to join the service. So, I joined the Coast Guard, which actually got me a wide goal to go to California and surf and get around the country. Every place there was a coast and surf. And so that's how I've gotten out now at least we know the motivation was I'll join somewhere where I can go surf. That was part of it. The other part of it was that the drummer for my band that I had back then in Texas, we broke up, he went back to Florida because he had some family issues. And so, the band broke up and I had to go and get a real job. All right, well, we're going to look at a long-storied career with the Coast Guard. But one of the things I think is amazing is the way you took advantage of the opportunities. So, you're a near high school dropout. But while you're in the Coast Guard, you're afforded the opportunity to get an undergraduate degree. Yeah, you know, I got to tell you back then it was a, I joined I wanted to boot I went to boot camp in January of 1975. It's a different world back then entirely. The military was a was a land of opportunity. I went in as a high school dropout made rate as fast as I possibly could move up, you know, enlisted ranks as fast as I possibly could. So, I started out as an E one. And then I retired 21 years later, as a lieutenant commander with a law degree. So, during that time that I was in, I was able to finish high school number one. Number two, went to University of San Francisco and got an undergraduate degree at night on the VA, then went to Johns Hopkins and got a master's degree at night on the VA when I was stationed in Washington. And then the Coast Guard selected me for the law program, after I served on a fast patrol boat out of Miami. And, and I went to Miami and that's where we met. That's where we met, and I can't believe it's 30 years ago. But was nice to have dinner with a bunch of the boys last night we are blessed to have a core of friends that go back that long. And I mean, we do it, you're nice enough to come in from Tampa. But we have dinners every three months or so. And it's just it's amazing to see those guys. It really is. It's hard to believe it's probably harder for you guys to believe 3030 years have passed than it is for me. I'm a bit I was the oldest guy out of the bunch. And so, I feel it a little more every morning. You guys do, but no, it is outstanding. Alright, so let's talk about that. So, the Coast Guard gives you an opportunity to get an incredible education. When you finish law school, what was your commitment then? Because then you go to naval justice, right? I did the commitment out of law school was five years. In fact, I had some people kind of fight me when I went in, that I didn't have more time than that coming out of law school to serve in the Coast Guard. Because I only served the five-year commitment before I retired because I decided I wanted to retire at 38. So, I served in a capacity, as you knew, litigating and basically defending kids that were Why say kids, Coast Guard people, I was stationed with a Navy, I've defended Coast Guard, Navy, and Marine Corps officers and then listed people at courts-martial, a whole bunch of them, like hundreds over the years. I also prosecuted some of those. Then I went and I was the Coast Guard's designated lawyer at justice at the Admiralty and aviation litigation section in Washington, which traveled around the country basically, on the east coast. There's one on the West Coast as well, but traveling on the east coast and the Gulf Coast doing cases for the United States, typically, oil spill cases and defending the United States where they're being sued for personal injury, wrongful death, that sort of thing. Usually, the Coast Guard would, you know, if somebody died in a rescue or whatever, they would sue us, right? So, you know, I did that for a couple of years, and it was a perfect opportunity to go ahead and, and head out. So, I retired back in 19. I've been retired for 25 years now. More importantly, during that time of prosecuting and defending Did you ever get a general on the stand and say, I want the truth? It's not quite glamorous. So tremendous opportunities, you retire a full commission Lieutenant Commander at the ripe old age of 38. And now set up and run your firm which you're one of the founding partners of Hamilton-Miller and Bertha so let's talk about now transitioning from a sort of the military into now the real world and as I said in the intro, it's maritime and Admiralty. So, what does that mean? Admiralty is a body of law that deals with ships and shipping. Primarily, maritime is a broader concept it can also involve environmental and, and a variety of other things that just have to do with the water. So, by the time I retired from the Coast Guard between one of the things I didn't mention in there is that when I was operational in the Coast Guard, you can't just typically go be a lawyer, at least you couldn't back then you can kind of now. But you had to transfer in and out of operational commands, which meant, in my day, since I wasn't an aviator, that you had to drive ships, which is fun. I mean, so I got to drive ships for years. big ships, little ships, not aircraft carrier writings, but you know, the Atari 200 foot 200 plus and 373 178 foot destroyer, escort class vessels, and that sort of thing. So, so I got to really, I grew up on boats as a kid. And then I did the Coast Guard thing for 21 years. So, it was almost like I was training my whole life to become if I was going to be a lawyer to become a maritime lawyer, right? And that's kind of where I ended up. And it really has helped most of the people that I have associated within my firm that I have had responsibility for hiring have had prior experience my friend, Jules Massey, who's my partner over in Tampa, he was a fort Schuyler graduate at the maritime Academy in New York. Sail professionally for years. We've got you to know, various licensed captains that work for us on pleasure craft, we got various my partner, Jennifer Siebold, has been on boats our whole life over in Cortez. So it kind of enabled me to form my own world of people that really knew the point in from the square into the round and if you will and practice the law with a firm understanding in the Admiralty and the maritime realm of what is going on the water. Well and in your practice, I mean, you do lots of consulting work and everything else. With shipping companies and you and I were kinds of chatting coming over here. You know, other than then sort of the advancement of ships getting bigger and maybe faster and everything else, the world still relies on shipping to move everything around the world. We're now in a position where the supply chain has now become a household word, because people go, What can't get anything? Oh, its supply chain, you know, what does that mean? Well, it means there are 100 cargo ships, and we can't get them unloaded, and everything's jammed. So, talk about the kind of just what that encompasses when you start working in that because it's, you're talking about countries around the world. I mean, you know, international trade back and forth with everything. So, what's the type of work you do? And who are your clients? Well, that's funny, because I have a real general maritime practice, meaning I do a lot of work, defense work for marine insurers who assigned me to defend people, if you have an incident here on in Biscayne Bay, for instance, where somebody hurt or killed or whatever, or even just property damage, I'll get hired by the insurance company, typically to represent the insured, which is the person who owns the boaters involved in the accident typically, and, and help them you know, defend them in court. And whatever the lawsuit is. The maritime world as part of that also encompasses because marine insurance deals with Surface Transportation as well. All the goods moving across this country by truck, all are insured by inland marine policies of some sort. I didn't know that. So basically, everything that moves in this country or into this country and around this country is if it's insured is insured by some form of a marine insurance policy. Even some of the aviation insurance in marine insurance. So, it's broad, it's a broad, overall transportation perspective. This whole supply chain thing that we're dealing with these days really is I think it really opened people's eyes when the Suez Canal thing happened, right? And it's like, well, you know, how can this one ship stuff? Well, first of all, how can you get you're going to get stuck? I mean, the layman sitting there going, are you driving the ship, and then I see a picture and it's jammed into the bank. I'm like, that's the drunk guy, you know, trying to dock his boat at Matheson not the professional Captain crossing the Suez Canal. Well, you would think that, and it's but you know, stuff happens. Things like the Concordia, for instance, when that kind of stuff where you're just kind of messing around, apparently, and not paying attention. It can happen just like you're driving down Dixie Highway and not paying attention. Anything can happen. So, but I think everybody saw the importance of that, but it the Suez of transportation in the Suez Canal, particularly transportation by water, one ship stuck in the Suez Canal, can affect shipping worldwide for months, maybe even years, right. The backup in Long Beach right now and the other ports throughout the United States is an issue. The reason why that's an issue too, is because you know, in order to get the ship around here, economically, you got to go through a canal. Well, you know, shippers want to build bigger ships, and you can't build bigger ships unless you have big enough canals to get them through my site. It's like you can't get an 18 Wheeler across this country unless you have an interstate or decent size highway to get the thing across. So, it's exacerbated not only by the fact that the ships are tied up in or anchored off of Long Beach trying to get in. And it's the problem that they're having out there, I believe is primarily a labor problem, they can't get enough or labor in space problem, they can't get enough people in to offload those containers, right. And they got no place to put them once they offload them. Because if they're not going to keep them on the port, they're going to behave to go be dragged somewhere else to dredge which takes trucks, right so you got to have truck drivers to do that. And then once they get there, the Amazon guys got to hook up to that chassis and take it across the country wherever it's got to go. And we all know that that's there's a huge shortage there. I'm in the scope right now of being in the throes of trial. I just bought a new house a few months ago when a new house it's an old-new house and I'm trying to get things fixed and repaired and you can't get you can't know anything to do it. I mean, it took me six months to get grass in my front yard. They almost threw me out of the neighborhood. So, everything that we do include aviation cargo relies on that aviation cargo is limited Of course by size, and weight. Things that move into this town every single day by aviation modes are basic like flowers, fresh flowers get flown in every single day, right cruise lines and hotels and Disney and all that kind of stuff. But Everything else is moving my ships somewhere some form. Alright. One of the things that fascinates me about Admiralty law is the ability to arrest the vessel. And I know you've been involved in that. And we always joke, you know how to get handcuffs big enough and everything else. But talk about that process because again, I think that when people look at an Admiralty law, it's so critical to have somebody with your expertise on it not only expertise but connections as well, because it's me it's an archaic system. And that if you don't understand the nuances of it, and you know, I mean, even on simple maritime things, the cases I've handled, and I've had plenty over the years, I'll generally affiliate with a maritime council just to make sure we're doing the right things. And we're position because I want to do the service to my client that way, and I'm just talking about, you know, small boat cases or deaths or cruise line. But when you talk about the Admiralty law talking about arresting vehicles, how does that come about? Well, that's one thing about the maritime law is that it is archaic, and it's, it's, it's got its roots. Back in the laws of old around, which is, you know, ancient laws. The laws are, frankly, somewhat consistent throughout the world with things like vessel arrests, and then so forth. Because we're one big shipping world vessel arrest came about or the ability to arrest a vessel, the maritime law sees a vessel as an entity as a thing as a person, right. So that person can commit a tort, it can, it can be negligent, it can be, it can, it can purchase fuel, and not pay for it, and have to ultimately be arrested to pay for the fuel. So, what happens in vessel arrest which is typically only actually a federal court process and right entry, is you. Let's say you chip shipped and pay for its fuel, you go down to the federal courthouse, you file a complaint against the vessel, you have the marshals mount up and ride down there and do what they call stickering. The vessel, they tie it up wherever it is, you put a custodian on board, and they take care of the vessel. And then the litigation begins over what is going to become of it who owes what. And ultimately, the vessel because it's like a person is ultimately responsible and can be sold at a marshal sale to pay the debt. Okay. And that's really what it's about. It's about money. It's about pain. The same thing in a personal injury case you can there a seaman, for instance, can arrest a vessel, it rarely happens, right? typically what happens is the threat of arrest allows the vessel owning company and or its insurer to step up and post either a letter of undertaking or a bond, which is just you know, as good cash. It's like this, and we're good for this and allow the vessel to sail because the vessel not sailing. Yeah. is huge money. Yeah, I imagine you get the owner's or the companies attention pretty quickly. When that vehicle is now in season, there are marshals and they can't move it anymore. So as part of the maritime thought process, you always have to be thinking about what kind of exposures there are under old maritime principles like rest that you typically don't have to think about. And so, it is good to ask your maritime buddy a question if you got one. Absolutely. And an affiliate, because it's, there are lots of little traps out there. Well, one of the other things that that you see in maritime law, and again, the significance of it, is much like you see a lot of times with trucking cases and everything else. When things go bad. They go really bad. Okay. I mean, you know, they're generally not little fender benders between two tankers. So talk about the scope of that. And I mean, you can talk a little bit about your own experience. I mean, I know you handled, and we're a key part of the team, and so far, oh, you know, a horrible, horrible case where that ship goes down and you've got deaths and all of that. How does that get orchestrated and done because you guys were able to resolve all of those claims, right? We were and including the cargo claims, because you know, it's not just the horrible fact of losing crew members and family members. And that was a horrible thing. It was, I was proud to have been part of that, and allowed to be part of it was on the liability side for the company. There was a team of lawyers that was affiliated with that. And they were all run by the mike Holt, who was the head of the tow At the time, the head legal guy at Toad at the time and he just did a super job of just keeping everybody in their lane keeping that many lawyers in their own room in a case like herding cats It really is. And he did a remarkable job at doing that. And you know, it's funny sometimes the bigger cases are almost easier because there are so many eyes on it that it must be watched carefully. I always tell my people when I do train with them and whatnot, and teach is that little case in the corner that little nothing $6,000 cargo case that's just you don't pay attention to right that's the one that's going to bite you. Yeah, that's the one because he's not getting eyes at the top level yet. I mean, you get a disastrous event. You're getting the people that need to be looking at it. Not the people down here that Yeah, yeah, we'll deal with it. And I've been really fortunate throughout my career when I was in the Coast Guard at justice. I was the lead counsel on the Tampa Bay oil spill case, which was huge and kind of allowed me ultimately way down the road to find my way back to Tampa. And as my justice job got me around the country and got to know all the other defense lawyers and a lot of the plaintiffs' lawyers around the country in Admiralty so that the Coast Guard was just an absolute I know this is recruiting commentary for the Coast Guard Oh, no, no, it's just a bit but I like to look at it and I tell a lot of people your story just because I go listen in this is a kid truly at the crossroads that took advantage now don't get me wrong, Coast Guard got what 28 years out of here, whatever. So, it's not a matter of taking advantage like you won something from them. So pretty fair trade. But the fact that you were able to go undergraduate graduate law school, and then retire at a young age a fully commissioned lieutenant commander is an impressive story with a pension 100% Well, you know, the cool thing I didn't healthcare benefits, well, that's, you know, you don't really trust me when you're when you're 20. Right. You don't realize how important those health benefits are. When you write and premiums are made for my firm, you realize how important Me too, so it really is significant. And I was commenting the other day about how lucky I've been to be involved in certain things I was involved in now farro I have involved in most of the post open 90 big cases that came about after that legislation was written and passed. So, I did a whole bunch of oil spill stuff and then go off go figure once all this oil spill legislation was passed, and things were put in place that were much better than the Clean Water Act and that kind of stuff. The pollution incident stop course I'm speaking a little bit out of term because of what just happened. I was going to say, have you read what happened in California? Yeah, but it's I've been fortunate enough. I was talking to my partner, Jules, who I mentioned earlier. And I remember when I persuaded Jules 16 years ago to come to work when I left a large firm and formed my own firm with Jerry and open the Tampa office. I talked to Jules about coming with me. So he and I were having, I know you're going to find this hard to believe a beer a few months ago, and I said, Well since you said, it's singular. Yeah, I find it hard to believe. I said, I said, Jules, did you ever think when you accepted my offer to come to work with me, instead of taking the offer from the bigger firms because he had all kinds of opportunities? I said, did you ever think that you would have had the opportunity to be involved in the Alfaro? Did you ever think that you know, which is probably the single largest, you know, maritime disaster in the past 100 years, right? I said, did you think that you'd ever go to the Supreme Court of the United States, which we did, about almost 10 years ago now, I got to tell you sitting in that room, and with the nine justices on a table on the other side, is an impressive play, I would imagine. So, I never figured I'd be doing that. But those kinds of things. arcs are exciting, and I've had an opportunity to do those even in addition to just meeting a lot of the work that I do nowadays, as I get older is yachts. I do a lot of mega yacht and superyacht sales and transactions and forming corporations and doing that kind of stuff in the Caymans. That's exciting stuff because it gets to it takes me to places that are cool, I mean, I get to go to London a lot I get to go to Monaco I get to go to places where you know yachts are and that's fun. So, it's not just cargo, and personal injury and death and there's a lot of fun sexy stuff to it too. And that my practice fortunately I've been able to do all of that was talk a little bit about your firm Hamilton, Hamilton-Miller, and Birthisel. I know all you guys well. a ton of respect for the firm. Kind of talking about the formation of that and what you own. We've kind of talked about what you do, and I know Tampa is more specified to that. But what does the firm do in general? The firm is a general litigation firm. It didn't begin that way. Jerry, and Jen, Jerry Hamilton, and Jen Miller, my primary partners from Tampa, I mean, I'm sorry, from Miami. I met them when we were all at a another maritime firm back in the mid-90s. color and how, in Miami, I went my way, I was one of the first people to head to a different place for that firm when it was when I was breaking up. And Jerry ended up kind of staying with that until we formed Hamilton, Miller, and Birthisel. So back in September, I got word actually from Mark out from Colin out that that Jerry was going to be leaving and they were going to be doing something else. So, I called Jerry said, you know, we should get together and do something. So we did Jerry has traditionally, he's, first of all, just a great litigator, and a trial lawyer, and but he was doing a lot of cruise ship stuff because of the Miami right a lot of cruise ship stuff, a lot of Disney stuff, a lot of if you read about a case over in Jamaica, Jerry's Jamaican, if you read about a case over in the islands somewhere where something went horribly wrong, and there were people, you know, flying down a mountainside on a little train or something like that, Jerry was usually right in the middle of that not driving the train. Well, I met Jerry years ago, handling a cruise line case. And it was funny because somebody dug up the transcript of a deposition, we had found a captain or whatnot, and it had to be taken on a Saturday or whatnot. And let's just say Jerry, and I might have been a little contentious with a surprise during the scope of that deposition. But I got to know Jerry through that, and again, got to see and appreciate what a good litigation litigator he is, you know, and we went at it head to head and ultimately came to a resolution on it, but it was one of those, you walked away from where you're kind of like, I hate that guy. And then you go, but I really respected you know, that. And that's kind of in the relationship with with Jerry and, and and Jen. So that firm, thriving and doing very, very well, what he kind of looking back, and I know we're not at the end of this career by any stretch. But what do you look back that gives you great sense of satisfaction or pride when you look at what you've done as a lawyer. You know, I think that to be honest with you probably the most, the most satisfying work I did was in the Coast Guard getting kids out of trouble, right? When I was in the Coast Guard, doing that defense work because kids make mistakes they do. And I made a mistake or two and, and but for the forgiveness that was inherent in the system now or then, which may not be as inherent in the system. Now. I was allowed to continue on and have a very successful career. I think everybody deserves that opportunity. I had a kid that I got out of some real trouble. And I won't go into the details. But he was facing serious jail time. And I won his case. And it was a full-blown trial before a jury in Puerto Rico. I got a Christmas card from that kid for 10 years. Yeah, after that. And you know that those are the ones that are really the satisfying ones. I mean, I in fact, I think I mentioned this to you last night, what I would really like to do in the last 10 years. And of course, the problem with being my age is that 10 the last 10 years is creeping up on you pretty quick. But I'd like to spend the more generous, I'll just say you're on the back nine. I'll give you a whole my last night. I appreciate it. Because, you know, it's probably more like the perhaps the last quarter Yeah, well, I don't want to make this two more. But what I'd really like to be able to do and what I feel like I've since I've had such good opportunities and blessings, as I like to spend the last 10 years of my life working with some organizations like the Surfrider Foundation and people like that, to try and help clean up some of the plastics in the ocean. We got to that's something we got to do something about. And, you know, I have lots of clients out there that have probably, you know, been part of the prospect as the military, right dumping stuff at sea and, and I'd like to in the last part of my career be part of the solution. And that'd be my legacy, rather than just moving money from one side of the desk to the other. It is nice to see that that the world is sort of waking up to the fact that we can't just throw things in the ocean. Like that's not the dumping ground and it's while it covers two-thirds of the world, it's still limited to what we're at and it has a huge impact so they can't find they're not finding any fish that comes out of the ocean these days without microplastics in their, in their, in their gut somewhere and it's just, it's just horrible. We're killing we're killing our planet. Yes, we are slowly but guys, that's the only hug I'm going to do on the tree today. Guys, guys, like you hopefully can start to save that planet a little bit. But listen, I really enjoy spending time with you. This is always easy. We do this whether there's a camera or microphone or not anyway, but I appreciate you coming in childbirth, the cell again, one of the top maritime and Admiralty guys in the country. And I know that firsthand because I've watched it. And I've watched the ability of this guy to be able to pick up the phone and talk to guys with lots of stars on their shoulders, that a lot of people don't have that connection to and so been a pleasure. Hopefully, here's one we can sort of just take them off the list, you know, put them into the good guy category. And we won't kill all the lawyers. We'll save this one. I'm David Heffernan. We'll see you next week. Thanks, Dave.

Welcome back to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan, I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for nearly three decades. And the thought behind this show is that quoted Shakespeare line from the 15th century, which drew a lot of chuckles when it was issued, still rubs true today, sometimes you bring it up, and people have got their images of lawyers and whatnot. And so, the goal here is to talk to Donald has been local lawyers, we're going to have a little fun today we're branching out beyond South Florida. But to bring you a fantastic lawyer, a very good friend of mine, and probably just a better human being. But clearly, one we're going to be able to take off the kill list was all when all is said and done. Let me bring in Martin Rubenstein, who is the managing partner of Levy, Balldante Finney & Rubenstein in Philadelphia. Good morning, great catching up with you, brother, you know that it's, it's always fun. So, if this is an excuse to catch up, we're going to do it. So, let's talk a little bit about first just out of curiosity, you going to law school? What was behind that? Was this a family thing? Was this something you always wanted to do? What drew you into the law? So, I actually had always thought about the law. I think that my father who passed away last year had a gift of subtly delivering messages to his kids. And he did that with me. So, I'll give him a lot of credit for that. And then when I was in high school, I was at best a mediocre student, mainly, I just had an interest in other things. I think we all know about that stage of life. You know, on the preset. I was a senior, and I had a homeroom teacher, which means that's the person who just makes sure you're showing up, right? She was cut truthfully, she was kind of a floozy, everybody knew it, that that's the way she was. She came up to me one day in class and said, hey, guess what? You're on my speech and debate team. I said, really, like since when she said, since right now I just looked at your grades, you need it. So, she immediately you know, guilted and intimidated me. And the first thing that she asked me to do was to write a persuasive paper. This is 1974, okay. And it was about the Arab-Israeli conflict. She gave me a book, and she and this is on the heels of the Six-Day War from that lady. She gives me a book and she says, and by the way, you know, I'm Jewish, she says, you'll take the Arab side. And, you know, I really, like what are you kidding me, and she said, in her comment was the other side's too easy, you're going to take the Arab side, so kind of forced me to be an advocate for something, maybe I didn't believe it. And I really felt that was like a major moment for me, like, going through that. And I stayed with her. And I was not a particularly good speaker at that point in my life and she had me going to these speech tournaments, we'd have to speak for 15 minutes in front of these judges. So it was a wonderful experience, and coupled with my, you know, my father's not so subtle, you know, suggestions to me, that's kind of what led to it, I always want to, unlike you, Dave, and I know this about you, because you and I've done this together for 17 years, you and I always have tried to help those who need it. Usually, it's the end, it's always the individuals, it's the little guys, and, and taking on the bigger people has always just made it more fun, hotter percent, and we're going to leave into that. So. So you've been doing that taking on the big guy and representing that individual for close to 40 years in Philadelphia, and Mass Torts and nationwide. So, let's talk a little bit about your practice. Because I'd like to talk today about mass torts. And I know that's been a big emphasis, your practice is what draw it got you and I connected. And, and the beauty of that is, you know, you make these relationships through litigation, and then you look at, you know, 17 years or whatever it's been, you know, still very close friends. As a result of that, so, so let's go back a little bit, um, mass torts. A lot of people, you know, they think, Oh, well, it's class action. Well, it's a separate animal. So what is a mass tort? So basically, there are many situations that occur, where there's one particular problem or one particular defect or one particular type of behavior that injures 1000s and 1000s of people. I mean, just for current examples, a medication or a medical device that was just recalled two months ago, made by Philips called the C pap machines. Well, they recalled all these machines dating back 2009 particularly Models because they contain a certain plastic that can be carcinogenic. So, all these people who've been using it now we're now looking at their medical histories and realizing Well, I have some of that is that related? Well, there are 1000s and 1000s of people who purchased it. So, two things will happen. One is, many of those people will come and hire you or me or lawyers like us. And we represent those people individually. We are part of a mass tort, meaning there may be hundreds of lawyers around the country who represent these people. But each of these people has an individual lawyer. The class action, which is also taking place with Phillips is that a group of lawyers will try to take the lead and say, well, there's a lot of issues that will come up and every single one of these cases, we're going to take the lead and file a class action and ask the court to say that we can represent everybody in the country. So, there's somewhat of a conflict there, do these few lawyers get to represent everybody? Or do these other guys like Dave Heffernan and Marty Rubenstein get to represent everybody. And as it works out, there's usually a combination, we work together, there's benefits to the class action, and there's bet and there's the need for people to be represented individually attained at the supreme court does not like class action settlements, where people have been injured, because they worried that if they approve a class action settlement, and people continue to be injured, or the money will be gone, and later victims whenever we get, you know, never get compensated. Well, and that's, that's one of the criticisms I think that you hear, particularly with class actions. Because so many times there's class actions that are really lawyer driven. And at the end of the day, what you see is lawyers making a whole bunch of money, and the relief that goes to the quote unquote victims is a coupon or something here. So, you know, one of the things with mass torts and and you're, you're generally dealing with pretty significant injuries, okay. And, and you and I went back, and that's how we met. And there's a lot that goes on in Philadelphia, because you got a lot of pharmaceutical companies there. So, you got to you got to reach out and connect with a Philadelphia lawyer, which, which we did back then. And so let's just kind of talk about how that works from the pharmaceutical and how would a mass tort start? And how does that work out where, you know, again, lawyers can level the playing field because of one on one, if we want to take on, you know, a major pharmaceutical company, it's nearly impossible? Well, I think you have to start with two pieces. One is financial, the cost of litigating against pharmaceutical companies. And then second are that along with that are the resources to people. So just as an example, the last case that was tried, and I'll say round up, the legal cost of trying that case was not in the hundreds of 1000s of dollars, it was over a million dollars, right. And, as we both know, personal injury litigation, we represent people who've been injured, if it's a serious case, they're not working, they may have no income, they may have no assets. You know, though, when people are injured, it can be anybody from any walk of life. So lawyers like you and I, and our firms, we need to we need to finance those cases, we literally need to underwrite the substantial costs of it. Well, no matter how successful you know we are, we're not going to quite match up with the trillion dollar pharmaceutical company like not we're on our way but when hundreds of firms around the country a lie together, we share that common expense of putting the case together. And there's two levels to it. One is fake, you know, when there's a product that's been recalled off the market, we still have to prove what's wrong with that product, the laws in each state are a little different, we have to prove it's defective either and the way it's made, the way it's designed or the warnings about it, so that you know the doctors can't necessarily prescribe it safely. And then there's of course, the individuals, each individual has his own his or her own story about how they've been injured, what they've gone through, and they need individual attention. So, when we combine together, all of a sudden it's not David and Goliath. You know, it's the pharmaceutical companies would like you to believe that groups like us are bigger than that, which is a miracle. But um, but it does level it. It we have, we certainly have enough resources and talent around the country. And we work together so that we can put together a very strong case where it where it needs to be, needs to be advanced for these people. And we do it all the time. And then and that resource. I mean, it's also not just the financial. But again, the resources because what you're talking about in pharmaceutical litigation is millions upon millions of pages of documents. And so to be able to create depositories to share paralegals that are reviewing and collating all of that, so that it's workable for the lawyers is critical as well. I mean, firms have to be able to work together to do this. No question. One of the interesting things for me, and it's kind of a good segue for how you and I met, is that in these mass torts, there may be 1000s of claims, I mean, I could rip off some of the drug names and 100,000 90,020 35,000 within that, those 1000s of claims, vetting it down to figure out well, whose case really fits what the problem is, with this drug. A lot of people may take a drug and have a problem. But it might not be the problem. That's really, the reason for the recall, could be something totally unrelated. But most people might not understand that. But once the lawyers get involved in the case, as we have we, we have to learn the science, we have to learn what really are the criteria to figure out who is most likely to have proof that they used the medication, that they were injured, and by that medication in the way that the problem with the medication likely had caused. So if you don't mind, I just wanted to digress. But even that confused us. So you know, you look you and I met in the early 2000s. mass tort was the big pharmaceutical, I'm not going to mention a name because I think our settlement was confidential. I think so too. So, let's, let's not breach, nervous to get sued right now. So, we'll bring in, you know, trial lawyer from Florida already was handling a case on behalf of this very compelling woman married to a Vietnam War vet, she was in Missouri, in St. Louis. And unfortunately, she had used a cold remedy. And the next morning, that cold remedy, she took it with a coke. And the combination of that cold remedy that had a stimulant in it Plus, the caffeine in her coke had an effect, that she ended up suffering what's called a hemorrhagic stroke, she had a bleed in her brain, and in her case, caused her to go blind. She was paralyzed on one side of her body. And she suffered some, you know, she suffered some brain injury on top of that. So, it was really a horrendous situation. And Dave was representing her case was perfectly put together. The manufacturer was a Pennsylvania based Corporation, and then other law firm connected, you know, David and I. So that's how we met, you know, two people from different states never met each other. And then we're suddenly, intimately involved with this with this woman and her husband. And we both learned a lot about mass tort in that case, because there were 1000s and 1000s of those cases. But the case that was perceived to be one of the strongest in the country was the case Dave, and I was hand were handling. And it was on a fast track in Philadelphia. So, we got that case together. But the big issue is this swimming, Use this medication. And our opening that we were preparing forever was she was sitting in a chair by a window that she could never look through, because of her blindness. And she was listening to a television show with an advertisement about a law firm that was handling these cases. And she realized the medication she taken was upstairs in her bathroom. And a pantry that case like 16 years ago, it's like it was yesterday. And they produce the evidence today Dave came up to Philadelphia, we met with defense lawyers from all over the country, in litigating the case, client was terrific. Now it's getting closer and closer to trial. we're negotiating with defense lawyers. And I'd say it was a good relationship. And then as what sometimes happens in litigation, kind of the boom drops. This woman had banked everything on the fact that she had the medication that she had taken. And his work death and medication when it was tested in terms of the information on the label. That medication was manufactured maybe a year after her injury. So, all of a sudden, now we have this huge credibility issue. You know, well, if she wasn't telling that she's not telling the truth is simply a mistake. And I think because of the way Dave and I had worked together and interacted with the defense lawyers, they really could have taken that case to trial and good opportunity for a defense verdict. But rather than do that they were smart enough to say, Well, our bargaining position just improved. But there's still risks these guys may pull it off. So rather than go to try with us in Philadelphia, which is a good venue for victims in these cases, they did come back with a Under the circumstances, a pretty generous settlement that surprised both of us. And our client was able to move forward. But we learned again, there was a mass tort, there were class actions file, but this was going to be a lead case. And David, I got a chance to work together. You learn a lot about each other, we learned a lot about similarity and values, what what's important to both of us outside the law, certainly that way, the way we talk about our families and relationships, of course, sports. And we've had the, I've had the privilege of working with you for the past 16 years. So I'm, and I'm not, we're not done. We've talked about that. Also. That's true. We're not done. And yeah, that was a, you know, you go back and you look, and that's truly the sort of the highs and lows of litigation and what you go through. But the byproduct of that is such a nice thing. One, yes, jointly, we got a very nice result, all things considered for a client who desperately needed help, but to their relationships. I mean, you know, you get educated on things, and the relationships you create are things that are going to last forever, you know, you've been kind enough, you know, you have Florida cases that come down here, you know, somebody is hurt in an auto accident, or else, it's from Philly, you know, you're kind enough always to reach out to me. And vice versa, we just have more people come from Philly down here than we have over a day. So that's it. That's it? Well, we're trying but let's shift gears a little bit only because I know it's something that you've become very actively involved in. And I mean, we could, we could talk about a lot of things because I know you did some of the NFL concussion and that's going on. But tragically, and that it's elevated to the level of a mass tort is the sexual abuse cases because the curtains just getting peeled back. And, and the horrors of what have occurred over so many, so many years, are now coming forward. And fortunately, there's lawyers like you, that are helping these victims of sexual abuse that may have occurred a long, long time ago. But that impact on these victims certainly doesn't go away. So talk a little bit about how that whole arena of sexual assault has now evolved. So for me, it kind of started this way. a paralegal came into my office, who had a son 10 years old, shut the door, and said, Listen, my son's on the soccer team. And his coach needs some help. I said, Well, what happened? And he said, Well, his coach is being accused of sexually abusing another player. So I don't do criminal defense work. But I immediately reached out to somebody I trust up here and got them representation. And then, two weeks later, that same paralegal walked into my office and said, Well, I got some other news. I just learned my son was one of the victims. So the reason I share that is sexual abuse, starts out with people in positions of trust, whether they're teachers, whether they're coaches, whether they're religious, you know, I mean, the Catholic Church has come under a lot of fire, but it's not limited to the Catholic Church, right? Every religion has their has their piece here. And what's really most trivially disgusting about it, is that young people who are in need frequently people and families, maybe that are dysfunctional, young person who needs somebody to be that mentor, you know, somebody they can trust is reached out to by somebody who creates that relationship of trust, and then exposes the youngster to physical abuse. Certainly the clergy abuse the stories are just, you can't even really describe them. In fact, when I bring people into the firm to hire them, and we kind of indoctrinate them as to what they're going to be talking about. It's just hard to believe, but the bottom line is that this has been going on for Well, some would argue centuries, but certainly 5060 years and what when I was asked to get involved, I kind of assumed, you know, maybe a couple dozen cases that was a big scandal at Penn State involving a defensive coach who had abused some youngsters from a foundation. But this has been an epidemic that's almost at the same level as the pharmaceutical. I mean, one of the cases the big one right now is Boy Scouts of America, right 90,000 youngsters through counsel filed claims of the 90,000 at least two thirds have been kind of validated as potentially true. It's an over you know, six 1000 people, you know, kids, we know how do you even settle cases like that those are cases that get settled for billions of dollars. And when it's all said and done, they're still mean, there's still not going to be enough money to really, individually compensate these people. So, in sexual abuse arena we represent. As an example, we represent hundreds of people in New Jersey, who have been abused by different clergy. And in Pennsylvania, in addition to that we represent, we were asked to represent 3000 individuals who are allegedly physically and sexually abused at a juvenile reform school that was closed. I mean, remember the movie Shawshank Redemption? Sure, this was like a juvenile Shawshank Redemption type situation. So we're heavily involved in that the same issues come up, we represent a lot of people like you and I started we only represented one person at a time. And we were able to develop relationships with that person that we never forgot, like, the pharmaceutical case we discussed more towards, you know, everybody, but it's a different relationship is system impossible to cultivate with every single person, the same, you know, depth of that relationship, and you're worried that this becomes a spreadsheet, eventually, and that these cases only get resolved in a very cold fashion like that, you know, we do our best to individualize it, we put a lot of time into it. We make sure everybody's, everybody's story is heard. And one of the most difficult parts, this is learning for me. I've been retained in these cases by a former classmate from my law school class, I thought he was only up to refer me yet another case. And there's that long pause. And then somebody says, well, the clients me. And then many of these people don't tell you the whole story. You know, in personal injury cases, the problem reportedly is the victims exaggerate their injuries, right? Next abuse, they don't tell you the whole story. And you have to keep kind of probing until you finally they finally do it. It's like this, this space. And it's very sensitive to touch it. We've had people in our office and they, you know, acknowledge what we suspected, we've, we've now done enough of this where we know when somebody is holding out on us. People feel guilt, one of the people that were presented, I'm not going to I'm not going to identify the sport. But it is I'll say it see that the NBA Major League Baseball or pro football, it was and is what's the referee, who was on the field during one of these championships. And his family was very active involved in his in his church, but he wouldn't even tell me his name, took me five months to get his name, he kept writing, because he wanted to share it. And eventually, you know, he kind of mustered up the courage and comfort to do it. So it's really kind of consumed us. It's different than anything we've handled. And but it's got all the features of these other mass torts, where the only way to get it resolved, is to kind of bundle everybody together. And I kind of shared with you before we got on, I'm involved in a case where the attorney who brought me in, this is the other issue. He is hell bent on making the biggest recovery in the history of our country for his clients. I'm not even going to say where this case is. And he's doing a phenomenal job. Some of the lawyer and he did is phenomenal. I'm not going to talk about it, because some of it's been in the news. But there's an ego issue. And his need to have the greatest settlement in the history of our country, I'm concerned may jeopardize the rights and best interests of his clients who have number of those cases have legal defenses that could result in a dismissal. So we have to always be cognizant of what's in our clients best interest. We want to do our best as we always do, we did it in another case, and we've done it You and I have handled a number of cases together. I think because of the first case so you know, family member was pretty seriously injured in Florida. I don't think twice at a two second thought they will they've had friends, I know you're not only going to be proficient at handling the case. I know that your interests will always be focused on what's best for that client. And that's not a gimme in every situation. So no and it's it is a problem when a lawyers ego is driving it, and it's no longer in the best interest of the client because, you know, you're jeopardizing a lot of things. And we talk about, you know, the sexual assault cases and, and again, it's something I think it's just more and more people are starting to come out because they have been quiet for so long, but you're seeing things like women's gymnastics, the US women's gymnastics, you know, being able to testify in Congress, and Those are nauseating stories as to how could that have gone on? And everybody turns such a blind eye but you pegged it. And years ago, I had a case with a police officer in Georgia that was a pedophile in a small little town. But yeah, they target. It was young kids with single moms it was you know, that didn't have sort of that figure and they create that persona to put themselves in a position of trust, and then abuse it in the worst way possible. It's horrible. It's just, I mean, it's just the idea of it is just, you know, anybody who's, who has family or who has friends or who you know, understands children or, and how it affects these people. I mean, the first gentleman I interviewed was a guy about my age and I remember sitting across from him and he told me what had occurred and basically this particular clergy had taken him under his wing and he described his own family situation which is pretty unfortunate. And he really, really admired this gentleman who you know, this clergy would take him under his wing and then at some point when he was about 11, and it's horrific, you know, all of a sudden, he would touch them kind of outside his clothes and you know, just comfort them and then it moved inside under his pants and then eventually rent to the level of where the clergy masturbate at this 11 year old male and 11 year old boy and I when this gentleman's now 58 telling me the story he looked at me and said, You know when I trusted him so I was confused, I mean, he wouldn't be doing anything bad and he said I was 11 years old, I'd never had any type of sexual experience right? This happens and it was with a man you know with a man and then he looked at me and said, and I didn't know you know, was I supposed to enjoy it? And and if I do, does that mean that I'm but I'm gay. I mean, the confusion from it. Now this particular gentleman was incredibly level headed. And I really admired him for his maturity and the way he discussed it with me, but we have situations that was kind of eye opening about some of the things but we have situations involving just Shawshank Redemption type behavior, right? heatedly by people in the highest levels of different places teachers taking advantage of situations coaches what Michigan State Dr. Nasser and your question How could so many people turn a blind eye to it? Well, that was actually what was done for decades. It's not going to happen anymore. But that's what was happening for decades. Well and that's certainly one of the reasons that I take great pride I know you take great pride in representing people like this because this is how and you know, we can bash lawyers and first of all we can kill all the lawyers but the reality is lawyers pushing these issues and bringing them to the to the forefront and shining light on this darkness is really what does bring about change and I think we're seeing it radically now in the arena of sexual assault and murder you and I could talk for hours and hours okay. And we will off of this and catch up again. But certainly, I really appreciate you coming in. We've sort of broadened our reach beyond South Florida now. Now we've got a lawyer in Philadelphia that we can take off the kill list. Marty it's been great catching up. And again, Marty Rubenstein managing partner of Levy, while Dante Finney and Rubenstein in Philadelphia, great lawyer, better human being. I'm proud to be your friend and your colleague, my best to you and whoever's any of your viewers or listeners and of course to your family. Thanks, Marty. Same to you and we'll talk soon. Take all right, that wraps this one up. We'll be back next week for another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan. I've been practicing personal injury law here in Miami in South Florida for nearly three decades. The phrase, first off, let's kill all the lawyers is from 15th century Shakespeare play, drew a lot of laughs at the time, it's debatable on what it was actually supposed to mean. But the thought behind this show was, maybe let's not kill all of them. Let's take some South Florida lawyers, let's shine some spotlights on them. Let's talk about some trending topics in law. And maybe one by one, we can take them off the list. My guest this morning should be very easy to get off the list. When I say new member of the Florida Bar, we're talking about in the last 72 hours. Yeah, as of Monday at 11:30am. Alright, but who'skeeping score? What happened on Monday is this young man, who is my law partners son, passed the Florida Bar and got those results just 72 hours ago. We're going to talk about that, because it's no small feat. But first off, congratulations, and welcome to the bar. No, thank you. I really appreciate it. And thank you for having me on here today, of course, And you're going to realize now you get into the practice of law that Yeah, most people do want to kill all the lawyers. So, we're going to see what we can do to dispel some of that, but, but let's talk about passing the bar, we'll talk about present and then we'll work backwards and kind of go forward, passing the bar, because it's pretty surprising. Of 3343 people that sat for the bar back in July 27 2014 - 183, passed a 44% pass rate. So, no small feat in in in passing the bar, How's that feel? It feels great. It was a culmination of a lot of hard work, a rough summer, but after everything's, you know, fell through it all worked out in the end. Excellent, excellent. So, while it's a gruesome rate, I will put this out there that the University of Miami School of Law, the Dean went and I'm an adjunct faculty did have an 82% pass rate, which actually was up significantly. So, talk a little bit about Dean, we're going to talk about what you did in law school, but this was now totally online. I mean, it's a thing, you know, annually, people hit the convention center in Tampa, big thing, what were the thoughts of, of taking it online. So, my initial concerns, and I think a lot of my peers also had that same concern of when you're taking it in the Tampa test center, from what you hear, there's not a lot of things that are outside of your own control. So, if you're in the Tampa test center, and someone's rattling their pen, or clicking their pen or pencil, you're hearing all of that, but so is everybody else in the room. Now, when you're taking it online, depending on where you take it, you could be taken up by a busy intersection with fire trucks coming back and forth. Your fire alarm in your building can go off. And I know that's what actually happened at the NYU School of Law. They rented out rooms, right? Yeah, they rented out rooms to all their test takers who didn't have a place to take it, and they had a fire alarm go off in the middle of the exam. So, I feel like taking it online, that was a lot of nervous. nerve racking for a lot of different people just because there were so many factors that were probably outside of your own control. Yeah, it's interesting and I think they'll probably delve into that. And hopefully we're, we're moving past things that we get back to take it into person, but I talked briefly to my daughter about this because she's working on her master's. And she goes, the odd thing is you're sitting taking the test and you've got yourself in the screen up there. You know, somebody is watching you the whole time, right? It's not like a teacher just wandering up and down the hallway. So she goes, it's kind of an odd feeling. But let's go back a little bit. Okay. Obviously, your dad's a lawyer. Yeah, we'll say nice things about him. Your dad and I are law partners. I love practicing with your dad. I think he's a phenomenal, phenomenal lawyer. What is it, that got you into thinking about going to law school? So, like every kid growing up, loved sports, and wanted to find a way to be involved in sports. So, growing up, I was like, I'm definitely not good enough to play any sports. So let me try to find the next best thing, which was a sports agent. So that was my dream, kind of when I initially started on this path, that's obviously changed later on. But when I started this path, my whole dream was to be a sports agent. So, I went to the University of Texas, I got my degree in sport management. And then I realized probably after my first year at Texas that going down this path is not really one that is all as glamorous as it turns out to be. Obviously there are a ton of successful people in the industry and in that specific field, but I realized that wasn't really where I wanted to dedicate myself and go down this path. So I knew at that point, that I still wanted to be a lawyer and go to law school and get my law degree but find a different path and it wasn't really until I started working in law school figuring out where that path exactly was going to take me. That's interesting and it was funny because you know when I got out of you I'm and then I bounced around the NFL went to law school people like, oh, you're going to be an agent, this and that. And, and I think, and we'll get off on a tangent just quickly. The whole concept of agent makes no sense to me. Why everything structured in the NFL, right? Why are you automatically getting a percentage of money of something that that guy could walk in and say, look, I'm the fourth pick the fifth round, I want what the fourth peg in the fifth round got last year, and they would go here. So I've never figured out and you know, to me, athletes should just go hire a lawyer and negotiate that first contract, hire a PR person hire somebody else that aren't all related to each other but that's a whole different issue on agents. So you get shifted and what shifts in law school what all of a sudden piqued your interest. I actually clerked with you guys for a few months prior to the pandemic. And that's when I kind of got into working more plaintiffs work for personal injury and medical malpractice with you guys and I really just enjoyed that field more than a lot of the other ones I had done some insurance defense work prior to that and I thought just being on the plaintiff side was a lot more engaging, a lot more rewarding and being able to communicate with your clients a lot more and one on one and really going out of your way to try to help people so to me that's what made that that shift to want to stay on the plaintiff side and continue working plaintiffs side Alright, excellent. We're going to talk about that but let's talk about law school because you go from UT in one of my favorite cities, and you come to Miami and when you start in law school, the world still normal, right? Right. So when did you start and then just talk a little bit about that shift and kind of how you other students schools had to adapt I mean it's a whole different universe, you know, your university setting you're going in, you're with colleagues, you know, there's always brainstorming before and after classes and now all of a sudden, you guys are in your bedroom somewhere in your kitchen, going to school. Right? Absolutely. So fortunately I was able to be there for a year and a half before the pandemic hit so that first year and a year and a half I guess was really beneficial because as we'll get into a little bit later learning and trying to do law school online is pretty difficult and fortunately my first year I was able to have that in person experience and that first year is so huge on trying to learn all the concepts and figuring out your best way to study and collaborative efforts like you said so I was lucky enough to have that my first year and then right we were on spring break in the middle of my two year and we start seeing all this COVID stuff start to pop up and my friends and I are talking being like there's no way we're going to you know go back to school u M was one of the later schools to announce it a lot of other schools in the country have already said you know, two weeks off don't come back from spring break and then all of a sudden with two or three days left on spring break we get an email saying you know we're going to delay coming back two more weeks until this COVID stuff dies down. So we'll be online for two weeks and then be prepared to come back in person and obviously as we all know that didn't end up happening at all we're getting right so we were forced to be online that remaining semester and then it was just a completely different experience you really don't get that same feel for being in an environment I think a lot of the professor's were also you know, understanding of the circumstances so you lose the whole element of being cold called and you know, having to make sure all your cases were read to a tee before class so you don't get embarrassed and you went from being in the classroom and speaking every day and being cold call to now you could just as easily have your camera off in a lecture and you know, be walking around your house doing nothing with the camera playing in the background, and then just two weeks before the final cram and, and do what needs to be done. So how did how did you and others if you've talked others, sort of find the way to be able to kind of refocus, because you're right. I mean, you know, if you may not want to go to class, but you stumble into an 830 class or lecture or whatnot. You know, you better be ready. I mean, that's part of the whole Socratic method of being able to do that. And I mean, we went you know, in litigation skills went to online and it's just it's different. I mean, it's a little easier for me because I only had eight students at a time, but it's still hard to engage. You don't know you're not making eye contact necessarily with that person. You're looking at your own little camera. So, what was it that changed and how were you able to sort of stay refocused to say, now I got a year and a half of an alternate universe that I got to get through. Right. So, for the litigation skills class, for instance, I think there were certain classes that throughout law school, you always wanted to prioritize More so than others. So, for me, if I was taking litigation skills, even if it was online, I knew I wanted to be involved in litigation somehow down the road. So, there was no point in me for trying to figure out a work around the system. I know others would, you know, were practicing opens opening statements today, and they would have their Microsoft Word pulled up right in front of their camera and just read down the line. And, to me, I figure, you know, if I'm going to be going into litigation, there's no reason to try to cut corners and go around, and if all this stuff is going to be beneficial to me later down the road. And I mean, even though it didn't get switched online, and the trials were different than what we'll be doing trial wise, we now are seeing a lot of the court system switching to zoom and likely staying on zoom for a lot of the hearings and motion calendar. So, we were kind of the first class to be able to be taught like that. So, there's really no way and trying to cheat the system, if later down the road that you're going to have to be doing the same exact things without any cheats to it. So to me, I prioritize those types of classes and the ones that I'd be focused on, and just really try to cut any corners and really tried to get whatever the university was trying to offer me. Well, it's excellent. And, and obviously, it paid off because you're now a proud member of the Florida Bar Exam, we'll talk about that skill set. So you learned all of a sudden to have to go online and do these things. And now, as you said, I mean, pretty much universally, at least motion counter and everything else is all zoom depositions are all being taken via zoom and these platforms. So how did that help you transition now into what you're doing? Yeah, so I haven't had any, you know, as, like I said, just passed the bar Monday, so I haven't really had to been thrown into the fire yet. We got to get you to work. Exactly. So haven't had to take any depositions and hearings yet. But I feel now I know some people can be a little bit uncomfortable when they're in front of the camera, and they see their face and see themselves talking and it throws some people off at least. So, I guess having had that experience being in law school and being familiar with technology a little bit more, and having that, you know, skill set acquired through these lips skills, I took one and two as well. So being able to have that structure and understanding of how it works. It's going to play a big role in my success later down the road. Well, it is important, and I mean, it's nice, you've got a nice background here and everything else. You know, one of the things I work with my students and it's amazing that you've got professionals, but you get into these hearings sometimes and you know, I mean people are in a collared shirt, I'm like, you got to treat it like a court appearance still. Okay, I mean, you know, and judges looking at you, you know, so set it up. So at least you know that there's light and you can be seen, because it really is sort of what you see sometimes in some of these hearings, it just it's mind boggling to me. No, absolutely. And you know, I've been fortunate to sit in some hearings, and you can really tell the way the judge views someone who's you know, making a call from their car for a motion calendar versus an attorney with sitting in their office prepared, dressed nicely. So, I really think those type of things make the difference and will make the difference later down the road. All right, you talked a little bit about why you were in law school, you clerked for us. I also know you clerked for judge Venza and did some other things talk about the work experience you had while in law school, because to me, I think that's so integral, you know, once you get that first year out of the way, which really is probably impossible to try to work and do that. But I think it's integral to be able if you've got the means to be able to go out and work and do some things to get some exposure. So, talk a little bit about the experience, clerking for us and then clerking for a judge and what that was like, absolutely, yes, I was fortunate enough to be able to work throughout all two of my back-end semester, or back two years at University of Miami. So, I worked at different jobs, those summers as well as during the semester and tried to really expose myself to as many different fields as possible so that when I was coming out of law school, and hopefully passed the bar at that time, I would kind of have an idea of where I wanted to end up. So, I clerked for Judge Denzer after my first summer in law school at the Criminal Division down in Miami, and I was able to observe courtroom hearings and proceedings and some trials. And that really was the first time I was getting firsthand experience. You know, I think I still in the courthouse was open, still in the courthouse was open, it was after my first year of law school. So, the year before the pandemic had happened. So that was my first real experience, being able to see litigators in person and watching trials and watching motion calendar and seeing their composure the way they speak. And I was able to experience that and obviously on the criminal side, you're seeing, you know, very sad but interesting cases and a lot more interesting facts to the cases. So, it was interesting to see all that and then obviously came declared for you guys after that and was able to do a lot more client relations and speaking with clients and working on Discovery myself. So just being able to be exposed to all these different practice areas. Throughout my time in law school, I was a lot more beneficial than sometimes sitting in a classroom, you know, learning the rules, whereas in practice, you're using those exact rules and putting them to work. It's amazing, you know, law school, they teach you all that, here's the here's the rules of evidence. But until you actually start to apply them, you know, when people give an answer, oh, let's do within 20 days, 20 days of what? Oh, well, that, you know, you got to figure out a story somewhere. So now and then you went over, you're now with Edwards, Pottenger. In in Fort Lauderdale. Yeah. Tell me how that came about. And then let's talk about that firm and the type of work you're doing. Right. So I was fortunate enough in my lead skills classes at USM, one of my moderators for my final trial, spoke very highly of myself and my other trial partner and our adversaries in that trial, and had mentioned when we were graduating law school, and we were looking for a job, he'd be happy to put us in touch with some people. He was super, you know, thought we'd all be great with the Gators. So, he was very happy to make any connection he possibly could. So, when I was working, in my third year, I had reached out to him and said, you know, I'm graduating, this coming, may I plan on taking the bar in July. If your firm has any openings, if you know of anybody, I'd love to maybe talk and catch up and see if you know anything. So, we've got on the phone, and he was friendly with my pet attorney here, Brad Edwards. And he put me in touch with Mr. Edwards. And we spoke on the phone seemed to be a very good connection. And came here I clerked here for it was very, very last minute. So, I was working on an insurance defense firm in Fort Lauderdale at the time. And then Brad had said that I could come work for him for two weeks before I started setting for the bar to see if it would be a good fit. So I immediately as soon as I could put my two weeks notice came to work for Brad for about two weeks, and then was fortunate enough to be offered a position after passing the bar. Excellent. So, you got to put the black hat on briefly take it off, put the white hat back on, and go and go to the good side. Exactly. Let's talk about because it's a very interesting firm. You know, obviously, very successful firms. So congratulations on the hiring there. Because I think that's tremendous thing. Talk a little bit about what they do, because I know that they've sort of specialized in some areas and had a lot of national recognition for it. And it's unfortunately, an area that we're seeing more and more problems. Right. So primarily, the firm is a plaintiff's firm that specializes in crime victims and survivors of sexual abuse. So that's what we focus on here. That's a lot what I've been focused on in my short time here as well. So, working on those types of cases, and doing everything we can to help those victims and survivors is primarily what the firm focuses on. Which, again, fascinating and, and, and difficult because I think, you know, the empathy and sympathy you feel sometimes in these circumstances and you know, of trying to find ways, how do we figure out where there's potential compensation? And how do we try to restore people that in essence had been pretty severely broken? Right, absolutely. And I think, given the fact that a lot of the cases that I've seen so far come across my desk, and obviously I've known what the firm has done in the past as well, when you see these types of fact patterns and these types of cases and the people who have been so severely hurt, it means a lot more to try to actually do everything you can in your power, to find a way to make these cases work and to find a way to be able to represent these victims to the best of your ability and you're willing to go, at least I've seen so far and everyone in the firm here as well kind of has that same mentality that you're willing to go that extra mile, even if it's, you know, after traditional working hours or doing anything, you can't figure out a way to make this case work to get into a courtroom and to be able to help these people any way you can. Well, and i think that's important, and you sort of hit on it, it really does. I think when you're on the plaintiff side of things, and you see people that have been devastated by physical or emotional or mental injuries, it becomes a personal thing to you, you know, as the lawyer you're like, I want to help this person and how can I and you know, it's not just a matter of, Okay, I got X amount of hours in and I did this and, you know, it becomes a personal issue for you to say, you know, we're taking you on as part of our firm with this, and what can we do to help? No, absolutely, like you said that perfectly. It's, it really does make a difference when you can do something to help these people who have been so hurt and they're relying on you to help them and change their life and put them on a new path. And when you kind of have that understanding it really puts things into a different perspective. So you kind of throw out the nine to five and are willing to be here you know, early and late and a second phone call whenever you need to try to help these people. So, how's the experience been? You had a couple weeks before and now you're just you know you got your time. I'm in here and did you go back to work before you got the bar results. Yes so, I went back to work pretty shortly after actually I was willing I wanted to start earning dive in as fast as I can. So I came back I took about a week and a half after I finished the bar and then started that following Monday and I've been here now for about a month or a month and a half since Pat since taking the bar and obviously it's my first week now being an attorney here so I've been able to be doing some work as a clerk for them for the last month or so and really figuring out the cases I'll be working on once I become an attorney and now am an attorney so figuring out the case they'll be working on and getting a pretty good understanding so really spent this last month and a half obviously working on assignments given to me but also diving into the cases that I knew I'd be working on once I'm an attorney and reading all the facts reading all the pleadings, reading all the deposition transcripts so I can get a better understanding of everything that's taken place to this point and everything that needs to be done moving forward that can help on that's fantastic and where do you see your career going? I mean, obviously it sounds like you want to stay on the plaintiff side of things but what do you envision right i mean for the time being I envision being here and staying here it's you know, a great working environment here um, you know, all the co workers here are great, the other attorneys in the firm are fantastic. Everyone in the firm really works together super well. And it's just a great working environment and like I say everyone kind of has those same feelings I do about doing everything they can to help people and their power and then trying to you know, save these people's lives essentially. So for the time being, you know, I love to hear and plan on staying here for the foreseeable future. And that's Edwards Pottenger in in Fort Lauderdale again fantastic firm I mean you look at you look at the caliber the lawyer so I think great environment for you to be able to be around that because again, when you surround yourself with quality people, you know, that's where your success is going to come from and hopefully you're clogging with the you know, when you clerked with your dad and I we didn't bring it down too much you know, Mike might learn something along the way Absolutely. So, take out the crystal ball best you can because I know none of us can but where do the courts go I mean obviously we're opening up and I think you know general consensus is a jury trials are going to have to be in person I mean, you know, both criminal and civil you just there's no way to do that virtually you know, trying to look at jurors and everything else but what about other aspects Do you think things are going to stay virtual for hearings and things like that? Or where do you see it going? And where are you going to sort of focus the technology end of your career? Right so like you said, I think trials need to be in person I think that's going to be the most important thing and the first things and you see it not with the courts that they're trying to get back in person. Like I said, I was in the litigation skills courses. So, both my trials which I took were supposed to be in the courthouse when the programs were initially designed but those are relegated to zoom and granted Those are my only two trial experiences I've had and they're not even real ones. But when you try to make that connection with the jurors and you try to explain to them the law and empathize with them and try to really make that connection that can make or break the trial itself you really are missing that aspect of being in person and being able to truly resonate with the jury so I think first and most importantly it's going to be jury trials have to be back in person which you know, we're already starting to see now but I do think the hearings and the motion calendars and a lot of stuff that's primarily just between the council and judges. I see no reason for that to have to be back in a courtroom anytime soon I think the zoom has been a great feature and super beneficial to saving time I mean you're saving time you used to be out in the courtroom super early wait for your you know time to be called speak with the judge for it could be a matter for a few minutes and then you're out and wasted two hours of your morning that you could have been putting you know your time elsewhere to us so I think the motions and the hearing calendars are here to stay for zoom particularly and I think that's super beneficial but trials I think need to begin and start being in person yeah and I think it's general consensus and we've talked about it some on the show before I really do give I mean all of the South Florida judges but I really think the Miami Dade judges were cutting edge on a lot of this and Broward they all work together to be able to continue to move cases via zoom and all that I think Yeah, we're going to cherry pick those things out and say, Okay, this was the oddest thing in the world. You know, all of a sudden we have to do this but look how efficient This is to be able to do this on emotion calendar and you know, outside of evidentiary hearings where you're taking testimony. I think a lot of that should stay with the way it goes. And, you know, we've got other issues in Miami with our building itself, whether it's safe or not, but you know, minor details. Beautiful courthouse down there. Exactly. Exactly. So having now graduated and pass the bar, what advice would you give for younger people that are thinking that are either in school or thinking maybe I want to go to law school? You know, is it a journey they should undertake? Absolutely, I think so. I mean, it's super rewarding, if not anything. So being able to go through this journey, I think, make sure it's something that you're interested in obviously, before you would even embark on this, and you kind of have to be if you're going to sit through the L sat and prep for all that. So super rewarding once you get through it. And then like I said, I mean it's, it's tough to be able to come out of college, and then, you know, you see all your friends, all my friends, I was the only one to pursue a degree after undergrad. So, I was sitting back seats, all my friends who were, you know, in real jobs and starting to make money. And here I was, you know, in law school, three more years, before I can actually enter the workforce and do all you know, same things that my friends were able to do. But at the end of the day, it's super rewarding paid off and we used to treat it like a job treat it every day. Like it's like it is your job and you know, do everything you can in your power to succeed in doing so. So absolutely, I would recommend it. And, you know, I'm happy to talk to anybody who's interested in being coming along or sitting for the bar or currently in law school and give them any advice I can. Excellent. Well, I know it's music, your dad's ears. When you say and now that you can start to make money, you know, off the pair. Well, no, I know your dad's extraordinarily proud of you as as him I, you know, I got to see you. You know, you did a lot of grinding at our office, getting ready for this thing, and I knew you were putting the work in. So, congratulations. Welcome to the Florida Bar. A brand new young lawyer Dean care working at Edwards Pottenger up in Fort Lauderdale. Dean, I think you've got a stellar career ahead of you. It's going to be fun to sit back and watch and, and I think now even though you've only been on the list for a few days as a lawyer, hopefully we can take you off that list. Now Thank you so much. I appreciate it. David. All right. Enjoy it. All right. That's one more hopefully we can take it off the list not to kill Dean care because bright young lawyer I think has a bright young future ahead of him. And I think you know, is typical of what we've had to see as these students have evolved starting law school when it's normal, going to COVID and now in the hybrid practice of law, a lot of fun to see. So, have a great week. We'll see you next week.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. That phrase was written by Shakespeare back in the 15th century that drew raucous applause and laughter when it was uttered. And even today still does. As people contemplate, it's not a bad idea to kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan, I've been practicing law here in South Florida for about three decades. The goal behind these broadcasts is quite simple. Bring in local lawyers in varying aspects of law, get to know a little bit about them, why they got into law, what they did, and maybe just maybe, by the end of the show, we can take one off the list to save that lawyer. This morning, I have the pleasure of having not only a really good lawyer, but a good friend and possibly one of the nicest human beings I've ever known. Jeff Rubin joins me and, Jeff, you've been doing this a long time local guy, we got a lot to talk about. But let's just start off with how did you wind up becoming a lawyer? It's probably a family thing. The name of the law firm is Talianoff Rubin and Rubin. Talianoff is my maternal grandfather. And my maternal grandfather and my father actually practice law together back in the 60s and 70s. Having the family aspect of it, and then, you know, so sort of predestined that I would become a lawyer, enjoyed law school and went to Miami, loved it back in the back in the 80s, and graduated in 89. And then soon after that, my grandfather was thinking about retiring, so it was an opportunity to join the firm. And then eventually, the firm name became Talianoff, Rubin and Rubin. So, it's a family tradition. For about three years, we actually had three generations walking in the office. Let's talk about what they founded and then what type of law were they doing when they first started? My grandfather was really in the collection business, he did a lot of retail and commercial collection was very involved in local community organizations and collection agencies throughout the country. And he started something called the commercial law League of America. And that was the aspects of his types of law, he did lead to some probate and some wills and things like that. And then my father was a worker's compensation lawyer. So needless to say, I learned a lot from them, and, and became a collection lawyer and also a workers compensation lawyer, as well as some general practice. All right, and we're going to delve into that sort of pressure that that's the family lineage, was there ever a thought of doing something else? Gosh, I guess I look back, I would have probably been like a sailing coach or doing another passion or, or something like that. But, you know, when we went to law school, we went to undergraduate school, David, you know, it was you go to undergraduate school, and then you go right into a profession, but that is, are you going to get your masters you get a professional degree? And that really is not the way it works? I think today, right? I'm finding at least with my son, he went, got an undergraduate degree, worked for a while, and then realize what he needed to get a master's. So I think, for me, it was just something that I thought was a good thing to do. I wasn't interested in the other professions, there were really no business aspects in my family of things that I got turned on to. So it was sort of a natural fit. Well, and you're right, I do see that now. My daughter, for example, has been out in the workforce for a while graduated from Florida State is now going back to get her master's. Yeah. And I think it actually makes more sense unless you really know what you want to do. I think having some real-world experience, and then going back and go, Okay, how will this benefit me? Because I think a lot of times you got to analyze now, okay, does this further education, and I'm very pro-education. But sometimes I think, you know, people would go from undergrad to some sort of graduate program, just because to continue to become a student. Yeah, that's not necessary. Okay. This MBA may not help me in what I'm ultimately going to do. My son and I had the same conversation. He's now worked for four years now to get his master's in securities and technology and securities up at Georgetown. And he did not he would have never gone into that program without the four years of experience that he has, right working. Well, I had a gap in there. I did. I got drafted in the NFL. Yeah, I bounced around and played hard knocks before they actually videoed it. You know, I got a lot of hate coach once you bring your playbook multiple times as I bounced around and actually my undergraduate degree was in communications. And so I came back and I was going to, it's going to work and television and radio and all that until the reality sort of set in that to stay in a TV market. And I'd spent the last four and a half years packing my cart moving from NFL city to NFL city. And I said, Yeah, I don't want to do it. And so I wasn't sure what I was going to do when I went to law school. And then much like you, I actually enjoyed law school and have been out of school for a while, and now really applying myself found it fascinating and then got into litigation, and there are so many parallels, right, you know, between athletics and history. That's right. So, well, let's talk about worker's compensation because it's a thing that happens so much, but I don't think people really understand it. And so, you know, it's a legislative scheme. That's sort of a tradeoff to say, Alright, you can't sue your employer for negligence unless literally, they damn near murder you. Right, because it's a hard exception to get by. But talk about what workers comp means when somebody gets hurt. Are they entitled to and how does that work? Well, I tell clients, it comes down to two different parts, and you break it up into two aspects. You're right if you are hurt while working. And even if your employer or a co-employee was negligent, causing your injury, you cannot sue your employer, right? That's the exception. And that's for the for your ability to receive Workers Compensation benefits. So, it's a no-fault law. So even if you're a chef, and you cut off your own finger, while cutting some potatoes, you're going to receive Workers Compensation benefits. So it's two aspects, you have the medical aspect, you have the right to receive medical care, while you're, you know, treating and recovering and trying to get better. And as long as the doctor is treating you when you have not reached what we call maximum medical improvement, you're getting better, right? You would get that treatment, but you'd also have a right to receive Workers Compensation benefits, workers compensation benefits would pay you roughly two thirds, or let's say, 60% of your average weekly earnings, while you're recovering, while you're getting better, so that you have a chance to get better get treatment, and at the same time receive payments, at least some income coming in. So because you're not able to work during that time period. All right, and how long can that go on? Great question, you know, you know, in a perfect world, I would not have a job and workers compensation insurance company would be doing everything right. Where you're telling the insurance company, don't do the right thing. There's a shocking revelation here today that sometimes the insurance companies don't do the right. That's why he called me on the show because you wanted me to teach you something I did. Because, frankly, you know, in all my personal injury cases, yeah, the insurance companies are always fair. And you know, they just do the right thing. It's not like we ever have to file suit and take them to the courthouse or anything like that. No, not at all. So you know, they're obviously, very adjusters are very overwhelmed, and things get missed, but they take certain positions. And so in that case, I have a job because my responsibility is to make sure that those medical benefits come in, make sure that they're paying them the right amount of money, and they're receiving all of the other benefits under the worker's compensation, law, mileage, transportation, medication, a wheelchair, whatever, they may need anything from any medical the aspect that they would need. And then, of course, that those benefits last, in most cases, until the employee reaches maximum medical improvement, that's a medical legal term, when there's no reasonable chance that you're going to get any better you sort of plateau in your care, right? At that point, the medical bent, I'm sorry, the medical benefits would continue on a PRN or as the needed basis, but the workers comp benefits for that, you know, not so catastrophic injury would stop. Now, if you have a catastrophic injury, then benefits perhaps could continue beyond that, if you prove what the employees what they call permanently and totally disabled. And that's what I was going to ask so you get to MMI maximum medical improvement. Yep. But what if you can't go back to do what you were doing? In other words, MMI, as you just point out, doesn't mean you're back to where you were, it just means you're kind of as good as you're going to get based on that injury. And oftentimes, that leaves people in a lesser position with lesser ability. And so what do they do, then? Well, you know, there's a, there's a tough line, you have to draw, and when somebody is personally totally disabled, they have to be pretty catastrophic, because that's, you know, basically, I can't work for the rest of my life. And shorts, companies have a very, employees actually have a very strict standard they would have to prove, you'd have to prove you have the inability to get a job within a 50 mile radius of your, of your, of where you live. And you have to have a, you know, job search, unsuccessful job search for a very significant amount of time. And you have to really be able to show to the judge, that you would not be able to work during that entire, you know, there's no chance that you're going to be able to get a job under that strict standard. But then you have those employees that you know, hurt their back construction worker. And now they're never the same person because of that bad back. But they have the ability to do other things. So, it is very, very difficult for cases and those situations to prove that you're permanently disabled. And unfortunately, you know, you reach maximum medical improvement, your benefits really would stop, and you have a tough row to hoe after that, and benefits may not continue. Well, is there any aspect? Okay, so in the personal injury world, yep. You know, one of the things that we can recover on behalf of people that get hurt is, is obviously, loss of earnings. That's easy, you know, I was hurt during this timeframe, I couldn't work for three months, six months, or whatever. We also can recover loss of earning capacity, meaning, okay, I can go to work and back to work, but not in the same capacity. Now, I'm only earning 70% of what I used to earn. So, if you've got somebody like a construction worker, that gets hurt, and that's all he knows, but he could go work somewhere else, but make less money. Is there any compensation for that? No. And that's a real big difference between Workers Compensation benefits and Personal Injury benefits. Because in workers compensation, it's a system of lost wages. So, there is no pain, there's no suffering, there's no, there's no payment for the fact that you are can't be the same person or do the same things that you used to do. The only thing that they pay is once you reach maximum medical improvement, MMI, they have something called impairment benefits, and pyramid benefits is the worker's compensation way of paying the employee for their loss, or their loss in the future. So, for instance, if you at the end of when you reach maximum medical improvement, that's determined by a doctor, the doctor gives you a percentage of impairment, right? So, if you have a percentage of impairment, let's say 5%, then what they would pay you is they would pay you they multiply that by two, so five times two would be 10 weeks of impairment, benefits and impairment benefits, believe it or not a little complicated are 75% of your compensation rate. So, it's basically 75% of two thirds your average wage, so not 75% of what you're earning, it's 75% of that 60%. Correct. Okay, for 10 weeks, right. And that is that the workers compensation way of paying you for your impairment loss, which is far different in your business, David, where personal injury where you have the ability to recover so many other damages, unlike workers compensation, but that and that's what I always explained to people because we'll get calls and people are significantly hurt, but it's a job site or something like that. While we're always looking for potential third parties that we can hold responsible, but I explained to people said, Well, look, it's sort of a trade-off. Because in the world of personal injury, we have to prove false, we have to prove negligence. And when somebody did something wrong worker's comp, you have to prove you got hurt while you were working. Right? That's correct. That's all you have to do. As I said, it's a no-fault law. And far different. So you there's a, there's a trade-off. You know, the question is whether or not if you get hurt, you might as well get it while working. But then again, if your injury is catastrophic, in its life, you know, life-lasting, you're not going to get those benefits, and you're not going to get the damages that you would get in a case like personal injury. Alright, let's talk because I know we've, we've faced issues with that, and my partner does some workers comp as well. We hear and I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, but you know, of workers comp doctors, okay, in other words, insurance companies, it happens in personal injury too. But insurance companies like these doctors, so what can you do? or What Can somebody who's hurt? Do if they don't think they're getting the right care and treatment from this doctor? Can you switch? Great question. Um, the answer is yes, you can switch but you only get one bite of the apple. So, for instance, if you are treating with a worker's compensation doctor because you have to stay within that family. So, if you get hurt, the first thing that you normally do is we'll send you to a clinic, then the clinic doctor will try to see you and try to get you back to work, and then maybe make a recommendation to a bad back to an orthopedist or neurosurgeon or something like that. And then that doctor once again selected by the insurance company will treat you. And then let's say you're just not pleased with that particular doctor. But you may have a foot injury of a knee injury, UNIVAC injury, you have one chance for one specialty to request a one time change of position. Okay, that's it. So all you have to do is you send a letter to the insurance company, and they have five days to give you a one time change. If they don't give it to you within that five days and you can select your own they normally do. And but then if you say I have a bad back, bad knee back bad foot from that injury, you have to sort of select which part of your body you don't get to go to somebody that specializes in feet. I mean, your mind but then you're not going to your back treatment ends. Exactly. Right. So that's the only time and once again that doctors within your family, okay, within the family of workers compensation, right. And if they, do it within the five days again, you're just going to another doctor they've selected That's correct. That's correct. Yeah. So, you know, so yes, you know, there are workers compensation doctors per se You know, you hope that they take the Oh, they take their Hippocratic Oath 100% on that stuff, but at the same time, that's how they get their business, right? If it's a workers compensation doctor, and you can certainly tell the difference when you walk into a workers compensation office or doctor that sees workers comp patients, versus maybe it has other types of patients, because it's a Milhouse, right? Because they don't pay, they pay workers comp schedule. So they do invite they do in volume, they don't invite them. And let's face facts, the insurance companies want people that are going to get people back to work as quickly as possible. And they should, right and but in and out. Absolutely. And I think also when somebody comes in, there's always that thought process from a doctor, they look at that patient a little bit differently. Are they malingering? Are they doing something that maybe they wouldn't do if they'd hurt themselves playing basketball or getting out of the car, right, or something like that, or trip and fall in a supermarket or something like that? I think I think that's as with any sort of benefit, and it clearly is a benefit not to have to, you know, prove fall for your employer and litigate with your employer, which then changes the entire dynamic. But with any benefits that people get, there are always people that are going to try to take advantage of it. And it's a system that's well-intentioned, but certainly has flaws. Yeah. And that's just human nature, that's a part of human nature to sort of just do things that you think are going to benefit you. But in the end, I don't think it really does. Because your true self always sort of comes out. I tell my clients if I had to prepare a client for deposition, and I only had two minutes, the only thing I'd say is I pretend like your mother is asking you the questions. Okay. And your mother knows the answers to every question. And in that situation, then you have to tell the truth because your mother will know when you're lying and veracity and trustworthiness is the most important thing for both in your business. 100%. I mean, lately, I've never used the mother line, but I might incorporate that now. Yeah, but again, I've always, you know, look, truth is the key to all of it, because even things totally unrelated to what the case is, all of a sudden, you lie about something, thinking it has nothing to do with anything. And now collaterally you're going to get impeached. Correct. your credibility gets drawn into question. And once anybody that's seeking money, particularly ultimately going to stand in front of a jury, if the issue of credibility starts to go, yep, it's done. I completely agree, completely agree. That's what I've tried to teach my clients that way. And I think that it's, it's really paid off over the 30 something years in practicing law. Alright. One of the other things I've heard in, in workers comp or washouts, what explains what that is where there's some sort of payday, and they stop your benefits. So, most cases end up getting resolved. But unlike in your case, well, you know, if your case goes all the way to the end and a personal injury, a jury or a jury would decide the amount of money that this person would receive, right worker's compensation, a judge does not determine the value of a case, a judge only determines benefits that may be owed. But there are in most circumstances cases would be resolved or washed out. And what would happen is insurance company you reach EMI, you're sort of close to the end of the treatment, you know, there's your days are sort of done with receiving benefits. So, what you can do is you can negotiate that would be my job with an insurance company for a settlement. And the insurance company would pay you a lump sum of money to cover your both your medical care and maybe your future lost wages. And that would be paid for by the by the workers compensation insurance company, an amount of money and then you're able to take your cut or your cut from the lawyers' fees and costs and things like that. And it gives the employee a chance to be able to get back to work. They get some money to get sort of up and running. But once again, it only is around those two benefits that you look right medical and indemnity. It does not include those other damages in it like you have in a personal injury case. Alright, interesting. let's shift gears a little bit. Because in addition to being a fine worker's comp lawyer, you and I, and you instrumental in me getting on the Orange Bowl committee, you're on the Orange Bowl committee, and more importantly, you served as president of the orange ball committee during the pandemic. Yep. And I got to just say kudos because we got a game off, we actually got a national championship game, even though there's not directly sort of ours that you know, the strong backing behind it pulled both games off, and just a tremendous job to you. So just talk a little bit about, I mean, I don't get off on the Archibald committee too much, but it to me and one of the things I think we need to work on, I'm actually going to get jack come on the show, to talk about what the Archibald committee does for the community. But talk about your role as President, and then your role as president during a pandemic. Well, thank you. I mean, obviously, when I became president, I never imagined that it would be during a year of a pandemic. But I remember sitting in February of 2019 2019, yeah. No, no 2020 right. pandemic? Yeah, yeah. Started March 2008. Yeah, that year, about a year. So, it's got we're almost in 2022 121 days away from that. 2022. That's crazy. And everybody forgot, like 2021. And they go back to the pandemic and 2020 Yeah, it's, so we're sitting Groundhog Day Without any of the humor in February of 20. And I said, I just don't want any trauma. I just want everything, no drama, no nothing. So, our CEO Eric palms, says, I think you got a pandemic confronting, like, What are you talking about? And then we were off and running. So, everything that the Oracle had done throughout the year, the game gives us the ability to do everything we do out for the year through the for the community. So, what we used to have been an events and programs and everything for the community basketball tournaments, and high school showcases and youth football. Yeah, everything. I mean, David just goes on and on and on. And then all of a sudden, we're now you know, shifting gears, repurposing, reimagining. And we're now you know, helping feed South Florida. And so thanks to our sponsors, who went along with this ride with us, we're able to do so many different things last year that we never imagined that we would ever do. So, you know, although our organization has been around for 88 years, we're all about serving the community. We're about bringing tourism to Miami, bringing, you know, helping the economy of Miami. And we think that we do that, while also having a chance to serve our community. But you know, you're talking about being present during a pandemic, but you're all around the people that you're surrounded by. And fortunately, they have you are set by Secretary that time you still are the secretary eligible committee. And you know, it was your wisdom, because you're a yes, no kind of guy. And I so much appreciated having somebody like you on the executive board, because we would come to you, you analyze and you give a yes or no, it wasn't wishy-washy, and it made that year and surrounding myself around people like you so much easier and so much more palatable. Well, I again, kudos to you because I truly think the leadership you show during this pandemic, because look, everything was brand new. Yes. You know, we do the Orange Bowl all those other years. And yes, there's always variations we're trying to evolve. We're trying to get into different programming, how can we help? What do we do at schools and all that, but there's a blueprint there. Yeah. I mean, you know, here's the book. And, you know, you could add a chapter or a page in here, maybe take this page? Well, you got a blank book and went here. Exactly. Oh, we were redoing budgets. I mean, I can't ever imagine that in February of last year, I'm thinking that we're going to do a budget for no fans. 20% of the fans are saving 50% of the fans sad, or no game. that's never been done before. So we were prepared. We were ready. Thank God, our CEO, Eric is the king of spreadsheets. Because when you want to start modeling things, I mean, your head will spin as he starts putting these things up, but he is so good at what he does, and we're lucky to have that. And, and, you know, you talked about repurposing, I just I really think the staff, I mean, the committee itself, and it's a wonderful collection, but we're all volunteers. Yes. Okay. The staff did such a great job of repurposing, saying, okay, you know, we can't have this event. But let's repackage it. And let's have, you know, a food bank drive or things like that, and got sponsors to line up. And so, so grateful for that. And we created what we call aren't bulk hairs, right? Well, which we never had before. And all of a sudden, we're like, hey, this really works. And now we're going to continue aren't book cares for our community service project for the years to come? So, a lot of things good things develop from it. It's sort of like making the lemonade and lemon. Right. And that's what we did. Yeah. No, and I and I think I think, you know, you look back and you can take a great sense of pride in that. We, we were fluid enough, just to continually roll because daily things changed, you know, I mean, and so you can't you know, you're talking we've got to project these things months out, you know, when you're putting on an event like that, you can't go well, let's wait till the week before and we'll figure out whether it's fans or not. I mean, how do you sell tickets, you know, they did a great job of repackaging and giving deals on sweets so that people could stay in their own little clusters, knowing they were safe, which I do with my family went to the game and had a great time. And I'll say this, we did not know if there was going to be a game until that football was kicked, right. I'm not just saying no, I actually mean that because we did not know whether or not a team could that was sitting in a locker room. If those kids had gotten a you know, COVID or whatever it may be. That game was on. Oh, sure. So we really were on pins and needles, as we were really moving up to game time. Well, all the things we do and it was you know, so North Carolina makes it for the very first time Yep. My son played at North Carolina just a few years ago knows tons of people there. And I'm like, Oh, this would be awesome. Because there's so many events I could take him to you know at the team hotel and hospitality and all sudden it's like, no, they're coming down in a hermetically sealed bubble, they're going to stay in this little bubble. They're going to have one or two little practices over here and nobody gets it. That's it. So, so he didn't get to any of those events. So, you know, we'll see. I think we were talking just for started. You know, Mack Brown has done such a great job. I think we'll see North Carolina again down here. That certainly won't be there was their first won't be their last. I agree. I agree. I mean, they could be ACC champions and everything. But this year, as you know, in your audience that may have some familiarity with college football this year, we will have a semifinal game, right. So, either be one versus four or two versus three. At the Capital One Orange Bowl back got to be what December 31. See here. Yes, yep. Yes. So please, we assume choice is ever evolving, right. We're slightly more stable. But you know, we've got to get going there. So, what's the what's the what's the greatest takeaway you have? From being president? I know, it was a unique year and everything else. But you look back on it and go, you know, this was the most sort of joyous moment if there is a single moment. I've had some time to think about that, because that's a question that I've pondered. And I will definitely say, who was the people that I had around me? There was never a no, it was always How can I help? What can I do? And I reached out to so many people in our committee and said, I don't know how to do this, can you lead this, us through this, and they come back to read with recommendations. And they did it with passion, they did it with love. And I think that it made our committee a lot a lot tighter. And it realized that how many great leaders we have in our committee of, you know, some 300 people. So my by far, it was certainly the way that the committee came together and did what they had to do to make it occur so that we would have a game on last year. And I think that really typifies South Florida. Because if you look at the history of South Florida, when there's disaster when there's a Hurricane Andrew, yeah, yeah, a lot of bad comes out to people, but you really get for that time to see the best. I mean, we will shine in the face of adversity. And that's, that's where you see, the leaders step up, you know, we saw suicide and we saw how that community came together with certified suicide a couple months ago, see the Haiti earthquake and see what's happening there. We saw with what's what happens in you know, with Hurricane Ida and, and Louisiana. So as these disasters occur, whether they occur in our community, or outside of our community, South Florida, I think is there for our nation. So, Florida is a resilient, resilient area, the punchline to a lot of jokes, occasionally with Florida, but South Florida like is different from Florida. And that's a whole different debate for some other time, because I'm like, we're South geographically, but we're kind of a different type of city than the rest of Florida.

Welcome to another episode of First off, Let's kill all the lawyers. That 15th century Shakespeare phrase that drew raucous laughter at the time and, and even today, when you bring it up, people think it's not a bad idea, maybe we can start wiping them all out one by one. I'm David Heffernan, and I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for the last three decades. My goal behind this show is just simply to bring in friends of mine, other local lawyers, South Florida lawyers in varying aspects of the law, and to talk about different aspects of the law that have an impact on all of us. And this morning, I've got the great pleasure of bringing in not only real, good lawyer, but a very, very good friend of mine, a classmate of mine. So, I've known him for a long, long time. And, by the way, one of the smartest guys I happen to know, this morning, let me introduce you to J. Will Morris. There you go. See? Hey, that's how you are just looking around. Play right now. Oh, that's what I tell you to say. Exactly. But I wanted to make sure I read it right. So, Will and I go way back to graduating from law school. What meaning 1991? So, let's talk a little bit about you, and why did you go to law school? And then I want to kind of go through your journey, because it's been interesting because you've gone huge firm, right to what you do now and covered all that basement. But what was the interest in law for you? Well, I was I tell people all the time, I never really had a choice. I mean, ever since I was four and five years old. That's what I was always told I was going to be. So, we'll be what it is. For example, I was born in South America place called Ghana. And I was born as a British subject, so to speak. And you know, and I spent some time in London, and not only doing some studying, but also working as a lawyer. When I went back home, when people asked me what I did for a living, and I told him I was more nobody was impressed. Everybody was like, okay. Give me $100. So, yeah, I mean, now, it was not a choice for me. And, yeah, we went to law school because we started in 88. Yeah, I got out of 91. And I went to, from law school, when I went to New York, and practice this large firm called Baker McKenzie. So let's, let's talk about that. Because, obviously, you had decisions to make coming out and you went, I had a big firm, I remember about as big as you can go. You went to New York world at the time. Yeah. You went to New York GOT licensed in New York. And tell me about the practice in the in a firm, and how big was Baker McKenzie at that time? Well, if I remember correctly, at the time, it had I think about 1700 lawyers close to 2000 rolls around 50 something different countries in the world. And so, it was humongous in the typical, it was a matter of it wasn't a typical big firm experience for me, because I was the only person it was the last person, they hired in the litigation department. And so, I can't wait. As soon as I got bored. I was arguing cases. And my first case is in the bankruptcy court within a year, you know? Yeah, I was doing depositions and all kinds of cool stuff, which my, you know, the other lawyers in big firms in New York. I mean, young lawyers didn't get that opportunity. I got a great story for you guys out this is how full of it I was. I mean, everyone has one time we go to this hearing in federal court in New York. And you know, how those big firms Go to hearings, they go five and six, do you have the right? The partner, the senior partner, you have me all the way at the end, and we're sitting there at the table and they're arguing and they're going forward. And the other side of me was waiting for cases, I'm with some other big firm like that. And they have the same sort of setup. And, and the judge asked the question, everybody's stumbling around the answer. Just turns out that I was wanting to research that issue and wrote that part of the memo. And I spoke up I spoke up in the middle of this, you can see all the heads are swivel all at once. Who is that person? Is he with us? I got my butt chewed for that. But I said Look, I knew the answer. What do you want me to do? I was loving with big firms like that though, because I did some pharmaceutical litigation in the past and they would hire great local counsel but then there'd be a hearing and they'd come in and again Yeah, it's like lining up against Family Feud. You know, there's the guy and by the way, the local guy knows more than any of them you have flown in for a hearing. And I love it because it offline from New York and you know, we get a nice favorable rolling be okay, you guys have a nice flight back tomorrow Do you do big pharma and then and then what draws you back to Miami? Um, I was sort of a personal family thing. My son who was born when I was still in law school, took him to New York and, and he could not take the winner, the first one and he spent weeks in the hospital the second winner, he spent a couple of days in the hospital and before the third when I got there, his mom said, Nope, not happening, run back to Florida. He was born here in Florida. And I stayed in New York for another year. And then I after a while, I said, You know what, I need to be around my son. So, I left no plans to continue practicing law. It's just like, I knocked around for almost a year not doing anything. And great job karate, you know him another friend, I was working with Tom to the time and, and said this, this, you know, this lawyer from New York, where I went to school with this is not going around doing anything once you come to bring him in for an interview. I go into an interview because you know, john requested I do that. And I said, I don't care. I mean, hire me. You don't i don't care. Or pressure-free interview. If you want. I was bartending, do all kinds of stupid, fun stuff. And then they were like, okay, fine, we'll hire you. And like they say the rest is history. I went from that town to firm to another boutique, litigation firm. And I'm not going to get into the story why I left them but I just left it one day, so they don't I quit and I got up the next day started my own firm that was in 1999. And been doing it since then. It's more illegal for me doing it since Well, it was there were some mutations or that it started off with William J. Morris, Pa. And then went to Morris department with Morris DuPont and I went to Morris barrel now it's just Morris legal. Practice with people you like now, right? Yesterday, yesterday, I lost the hearing that I felt I should have won. And I you know how debilitating that can be at times. And I sat there for about half an hour. And then I realized 10 o'clock and I quit. I got up and left. So, I call my buddy David Howard. I said You know what? I got fired. Did you get fired? Yeah, I got fired. I quit because my bosses real 801 didn't curse him out. I just decided to quit. I took the rest of the day off. And it was refreshing. And here I am. Right. Good. You have to lick your wounds to come back. You know, it is a profession where Yeah, you certainly can't win them all. And yeah, the most devastating, I think is those that, you know, you think absolutely should have. And I mean, its what appellate courts are for and you know, just try to do the right thing, but can't say that we always agree with them. I know. They can't just come at me from left field didn't see that coming? That Wow. Okay. All right, let's let's talk about your practice. Because it sort of evolved and you focused a lot on consumer law. Yeah, I think I think with that, there's a lot of things, the effect of the pandemic and everything else. So, let's talk a little bit about that. You know, what happens, I was fortunate enough that I saw the handwriting on the wall back in 2008, what was happening at the advent of the foreclosure, boom, and I got in love with that. And they started doing foreclosure defense had a huge amount of employees and a huge amount of clients. And when that dried up, and that sort of like led to mutations of the firm that dried up and, and here I am back to where essentially almost where I started before but liked it better. So I think at the beginning of the pandemic when things started shutting down, and I started thinking, Wait a minute, this might be again, only a lawyer can say this, I mean, there's going to be another boom of foreclosures, right. Then now and back in 2008 was, even though the banks were being bailed out, they weren't necessary for 2008. And given money from the federal government, they weren't necessarily passing that down on to the homeowners and homeowners are still out of jobs, and homeowners are still not being able to afford their rent. I mean, the mortgages and so foreclosures are, you know, were the thing of the day, the pandemic was a little bit different because I don't see that same sort of a boom to the foreclosure market. Because I think because not only was everybody getting bailed out by the banks, by the by the government but everybody was put in a holding pattern. I don't know what's going to happen in the next year or so. But I don't. I mean, there's a lot of people who've gotten different mortgage payments and people haven't paid their mortgages since the beginning of the pandemic. I don't necessarily know what's going to happen once those deferments stop. I mean, certainly, the economy looks as though it's not as bad as it was in 2000. It certainly was always bouncing back. And certainly, there's a whole bunch of jobs available, and dependently listened to argue for those jobs. But so, it's not really an economic crisis. Now, it's not going to be just a crisis, whether or not the banks are going to say, you know, what, for the year or change in which we deferred your mortgage payment, we're just going to tack it on to the end. And that's a deal, you know, you need to come up with a 50 $60,000 to bring your mortgage, more current, I don't think that's going to happen. And if that doesn't happen, then I don't necessarily foresee the same kind of foreclosure boom, that occurred back in. Oh, 809. So going back to Oh, eight, no, nine, when that boom happened, what was everything going on with all the Robo signing? Because mortgages were just getting passed back and forth. Right, you know, the banks, you take out a mortgage with Bank A, and by the time anything happened, it was 10 banks later, that has your mortgage. Right, right. Sometimes in the closing, and right after the closing, and gets transferred. And what happened was, and in all, all more documents, give them the lending bank, the right to transfer to whomever they want. What happened was the Dolly's mortgages got bundled with a call trenches, and you'd have well-performing mortgages, and poorly performing them were all put into a bundle, and they were being sold in the secondary market. But when the problem is when, when, when are the bad mortgages in that bundle went bad, and the whole bundle goes bad, right? Okay, people were buying those, those bundles in the secondary market started getting squeezed by it, you know, and then when you add to that when you enter that the economy, the bottom falling out, and people losing jobs, and more and more and more things became non-performing, then those strategies that they would call, those tranches of mortgages that were bundled together, became almost worthless, you know, and banks were left holding the bag, you know, I mean, not to feel sorry for them. I mean, they, they're the ones who created, right, they set it up, because they wanted more, they wanted more mortgages to put in these trenches to sell on the secondary market. That's what pressure the mortgage brokers to qualify anybody with a pulse to qualify for mortgages. I mean, I had situations where people are making 40 $50,000 a year, and carrying a quarter million, I mean, half 1,000,003, quarter-million mortgages, there's no way that could happen. You know, the general rule is and should only be paying 30% of your income to service a mortgage. Well, if you're paying 200% of your income to serve as a mortgage problem, the math doesn't work. That doesn't work, you know, and then people start thinking, Well, you know, these, I used to call them, I had a radio show regulation called Trump that people think they were going to become real estate tycoons, you know, to buy a property and flipping which a lot of people made a lot of money for it. But when the bottom fell out, and you wind up holding a piece of property, it's not worth what you paid for it. And then what do you do? You're going to go into foreclosure, right? So, I mean, they started a domino effect. Look, there's a lot of blame to go around. I mean, sure, you can blame the homeowner for no offense for getting in a situation where they couldn't afford a mortgage, to begin with. And sure, you can blame the banks, you can blame them do regulations, you can blame the whole. But you know, it was like a perfect storm, a confluence of all these small and seemingly insignificant events that created this big problem, and, and hence, the 2008 2009 foreclosure boom. Let's fast forward to today. And you say obviously, foreclosures are way down. And we don't see that. But what does a homeowner do? Let's say lost a job during a pandemic or unable to work or, you know, you've got people still long term effects of COVID that haven't been able to go back to work. Do they get behind what's their best option? Like I was saying earlier? Luckily, there's a lot of banks that are willing to be willing, I don't know, they still are. And there were certain moratoriums in place that stopped foreclosures, you know, on the federal level, and there are some Many states have that, that as well. A lot of banks that were deferring the mortgage payments, you know, I'm not ashamed to say I took advantage of that, why not? Right, so. So, the question is going to become, once these deferments run out what the bank decides to do, and there's no rule that says the bank could say what we'll roll it into the back the same way, there was no rule that said back in, oh 809 that you were entitled no modification. There's no entitlement. There's, there's no entitlement to the bank, to the bank, forcing the bank to put what you owe whenever you haven't been in the last year and the back end of the mortgage. So, it will all depend on what these individual banks decide to do. I mean, if they decide not to and start putting pressure on people that come up with this kind of money, then we've got a major problem and imagine the government will have to step in and do something about it. Otherwise, we're back, maybe not to the levels of Oh, 908. But we're back to a little bit of a boom in foreclosures, you know, is there a difference? Because now, when you go back to, oh 809, banks had the ability, like you're saying it's their option, they can either work with you or they have the ability to foreclose on it. But they didn't want to own a lot of these properties, the value wasn't there anything else right now, the market? the bank might want to say, Hey, we can squeeze you now. That's interesting. I mean, this is another part of the seemingly insignificant, well, the value of properties that is not necessarily insignificant because the values of property have gotten ridiculously high. I mean, it's almost, it cannot be you can't, it cannot be sustained. You know, I mean, their banks now saying, look, we're not going to lend you money to buy this house, because it doesn't, it doesn't appraise for the value of pain, you know, yeah, I sold a place my place in the middle before the pandemic, and was looking to buy one. And shortly we recognized that I couldn't, because you know, you've given a guy asked for 200, you've got two guys, okay, pay 200. The next day guy comes to sell, pay you 210. And you're, and here's the cash, and here's a briefcase of cash I got for it, you know, and you're done. And so banks are now looking at these properties that are being sold and say, Look, we're not going to finance that, because that property is not worth it. Because so there's writing on the wall that says that the boom in the prices, you know, is either going to stabilize or have to come down. Now. Now, you make an interesting point. Because of that very same fact, that might motivate banks to foreclose and get Arias, what's called real estate, when the bank itself owns the property, or sell it. So in the door courthouse selling in the courthouse that doesn't do the bank much, because all you're all they're entitled to really is what they're owed. Right. Right. And the surplus goes to the homeowner, right? The difference between what the property sells for and what you have to pay the bank about. It's called a surplus and it goes to the homeowner. So you know, unless the banks decide to take it back, you know, which, which, again, will happen a lot back in the late I mean, which might happen again, because if the property's in the bidding process, and a foreclosure sale, pushes the price above that, which people are willing to pay, you know, and nobody buys it, then it goes back to the bank. Right? I mean, so the bank has to it is a two-step, almost a two-step approach for this become are your real estate owned property by the bank. So, while they might be incentives to the bank to foreclose, there's still a bit of a process to go through. So, they can reap the benefits of that. I'm By the way, which was another point. You had a question? Yeah. Well, no, I just I want to talk about now. You talked about a moratorium on foreclosures. So what is the status? Can they be filed? Or is that still is there sort of a freeze on that? What is the person who you ask? I mean, I'm asking you, you know, the federal government can put more terms or foreclose on any property. This is financed by FHA, you know, a federal agency, you know, and then it's up to the stage to determine whether or not these particular states will put a mark on my proposal. I don't think there is one, you know, last I checked, there wasn't, let's say, the reason I say it depends on when you ask, you know, like, for example, there was a monitoring evictions. Right. Right. And obviously, then the federal level that expired and different state that was there was a statewide march on any evictions, and which expired and, and local governments have their own, you know, local municipalities have their own moratoriums. So, you know what, when the governor saying one thing, and you know, you must go check your local county to see whether or not that really applies to you? It depends. It's all over the place. So, but I think I've seen an uptick in evictions, you know, a lot of residential evictions, and I don't think a lot of commercial evictions as well. I see an uptick in that. And because quite frankly, you know, I mean, people weren't paying rent and right, though, even though some of the landlords took advantage of the benefit of the rental assistance programs that they had, the federal government hadn't even the state had. If you haven't been paying your rent, I mean, they still have a right to, you know, to evict you. Yeah, and that's and that's, that's a whole different dynamic because getting the rental market is so sparse down here that if people can get their property back, to get people to come in and pay it, they're going to do it in a heartbeat. So, and I know there's some litigation now because yeah, with, with the moratoriums on that there were windows for a couple days where it had lapsed and people filed right then and there and now there's, you know, back in Place. And I guess we'll leave that to the courts to decide. It's all over the place. It really is. I mean, you know, I, even the beginning of the pandemic, I had a guy come in and try to evicting somebody from his residential property. And he got mad at me because it wasn't going anywhere. So, he fired me and hired somebody else. And he still, he still had it. Right? A year and a half later, I kept telling him, you know, what would you have me do? would you have me go down to the courthouse and sign these orders myself? I can't do it. Right. A year and a half later, he still at it, still at it. Can't get it done? What do you see going on, and you know, one of the byproducts of the pandemic, and you've been in big firms, but I know you do commercial work as well, is, you know, everybody started working at home. And now at least from law firms, and I talked to people, a lot of people are going, Hey, we don't quite need the space that we had any more because we can, we're going to have half work at home, we can do this. And I think that whole dynamics changing? What do you see that going? Yeah, listen, it was inevitable. once people start realizing, you know, like, you don't necessarily need to get up, get dressed and drive to a place Park and get into an office space with a whole bunch of other people. I mean, the requirement to having this big expensive real estate, you know, offices you've seen, that's your biggest nut no question. Your overhead is ridiculous. When you realize you don't even you could start cutting back on that. I mean, those big office buildings going to start feeling the crunch. I mean, you know, I don't see it going back to where it was before. I mean, I certainly I will, I hope and I pray, I'm sure you think I do? I hope the courts will go back to that fully. You know. I mean, you know, you're in a sitting engine sitting at your desk and your shorts and your tie in his jacket, and shirt. I mean, rather than driving, because I always, I've always thought, you know, how the courtroom is you going there, this 5060 lawyers, you sit around for an hour and a half minutes of generous time. And you think about this is like $5 million in our being clicked away for nothing. Right? Everybody's sitting there waiting. You know, I mean, it's ridiculous. So I see, I see big firms not getting back, you know, scaling them the space that they went from, I'm praying, and I'm hoping that there's certain things in court that require your presence, I get that. You can't have a trial with you know, I've done a couple of zoom trials. I mean, it's better in person, you know. 100% Yeah, but you know, ridiculous hearings, please. But yeah, being able to do motion calendar record 100%, which just makes perfect sense, to do it via zoom. You know, you're there. You can log in, you know, I can be in West Palm Beach for hearing, you know, at 830. In, in my office, same time, without killing all that time. Otherwise, it took a whole morning. And you're right, he's gone. Right. Yeah. The funny thing is the one thing I've found, though, is, with the zoom hearings, it seems that lawyers are talking less before the hearings, okay. Because it's no big deal. I log in and, and so instead of working out things ahead of time, because they go, Wow, I don't want to I don't have to drive and be in Broward at this time. You know, can we work it out? They have a discussion, those discussions are sort of falling by the wayside. Because I can just show up. Right. That's an interesting point. Not only that, but you can also talk to each other before the hearing in making a whole lot of progress. That's an interesting point. What is true? Yeah, how many times have you worked at something in the hallway? That's where, you know, waiting for the waiting to see the judge guy. Come on. This is ridiculous. You know, and you figure it out, and you write up an order, and you're out of there. Right. Right. Right. Right. That's an interesting point. Yeah, that that is a casualty of the zoom hearings. I agree. But you cannot beat the convenience of it. I mean, you really, really, really can't No, I I think that will be one of the good byproducts that comes out of this. And we've talked about it on this before. I really do credit. The Miami Dade County judges, I think they've done a really good job of, of keeping things open and via zoom, however, virtually open, but continuing to try to move cases during this time frame as opposed to just let it all sort of stall. Right. Right. You know, implemented. I was thought of in my it's a bit of a good thing. they've implemented a system that's similar to the federal court where you have these case management and deadlines right off the bat. Right. The minute you file it, two days later, you're scheduling a trial. What about Wait, I just filed Why are we scheduled? But that's how federal courts moving into the world. And I see Dade counties doing that, which is I think a little bit of a good thing. I mean, rather than having these cases languish No, no question and I've always say it's funny. I've always told my students and I'm like, Yeah, the difference between state court and federal court is in state court, you can kind of file and figure it out as it goes along. Federal Court, you better have it wrapped packaged in a bowl and ready to go. The day you file it, right? They don't mess around over there. I mean, it's, you know, I tell people, it's like a real court, really. But yeah, I have seen now, you know, with zoom, I mean, I don't think I've had this many case management conferences in my life, because what judges were just doing is they're just setting monthly case management conference going, Okay. Where are we at? What can we do to help, you know, and pushing things? Well, you sort of have to because you remember, at the beginning of the pandemic, everything shut down. Nobody was there, right. And these cases, you know, next thing, you know, a 2018 case, all of a sudden is two years old, right? Like that. We have to do something to move these things a lot. You're not telling me it's not March 2020. Still, excuse me the last date, I remember. I saw a great, great meme. It's two guys running and one guy's running here. And he's, he goes me still contemplating 2020. And then the guy behind him says 2022, four months away. Blur in there for some of you remember, April and March, April and May of last year? Geez, I mean, I was the only guy coming. I came to work every day. Right? It was a ghost town. Because I soon realize I can't work from home, I have to be, you know, get up and get dressed and go someplace. Right? It was a ghost town. It was like a strange, eerie. We Yeah. Anyway, you know, but we live through it. Yeah, we did. We did. And, you know, hopefully, we've learned and hopefully we will grow and continue to grow and be very interesting to see what goes on in the world of foreclosure and everything else. And you might come we'll see what happens with you know, that there's a couple of variables have to play out to see what happens. I mean, I, you know, banks, banks hold all the cards. I mean, you know, should they do? The bit that they have an opportunity to they can say whatever they want to, you know, when I'm in the middle of foreclosures and trying to do modifications, people couldn't understand, why would the bank want my property back in a way? They don't care about you? You think they know who you are? Right? You have coffee or beer with them? You're just a number on a piece of paper. And if it makes sense to them, that's what they're going to do. You know, what, what advice do you have for a consumer who all of a sudden, is in a situation? They can't pay their mortgage? I mean, and I know, banks aren't moving swiftly on it, but should they be proactive? Should they contact the banks? lawyer? What? Yeah, I think you should contact the bank and you think would contact the lawyer and start talking about I think, banks, the modifications are not dead. I mean, it and so people should be proactive and contact the banks and listen, are we going to put this money I owe you in the back of it? Do we need to modify this they got they have to keep on it. I mean, you know, get your lawyer to keep on them. So that, you know, you don't get caught off guard when the bank suddenly says to you, hey, by the way, we need a $50,000 check, right? Otherwise, we'll foreclose on X. But nobody has that. You know what I mean? Nobody has $50,000. But the good thing about it is that the property value is going up, people are not going to be as underwater as they were back in 2008. When the property values fell, that was another variable that helped the boom, pop right? Now, you know, the guy who's going to flip the house, you know, thought he was going to make $20,000 or less Next, you know, he's $20,000 in the hole. Yeah, he's up, he's upside down on it. You know, you can't do anything with it. You know, me, you know, so we'll, we will see what happens with the banks what they decided to do, but the property values being up, then, you know, another option is to sell the thing, you know, right, there's still that option, you know, well, that's an option. The only problem is then you got to find somewhere to live. You're going to sell you're going to need to move out of Miami because that's the other thing. Yeah, you sell and go where? Right? Right? That's a big question. Well, well, listen, it has been an absolute pleasure. Always love chatting with you. And, and, and hanging out and anytime, anytime. One of the cool things is you know that we've got a core from law school in 91. That continues to stay close friends, having dinner drinks all that time is one of his many of the classes in our section. I don't think so. I don't know. We're blessed to have the crew that we do so and I'm blessed to count you as a friend and a lawyer and hopefully wills one we can start to take off the kill list now. You know, not a bad guy. Apparently, he can bartend if he's not working as a lawyer. So you know, it's Nice Dale, you got a good skill set to fall back on. There you go. All right, my friend. Thank you pretty nice. I appreciate I appreciate you having me. You got to my friend. All right, thanks. That's another episode of first off. Let's kill all the lawyers and we'll see you next week.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. It's that 15 century phrase that Shakespeare wrote and was uttered by Dick the butcher, and drew raucous laughs even though there's a debate as to what the line meant. And line, it still makes people laugh today, when we say first off, let's kill all the lawyers. So, I'm David Heffernan. I've been a personal injury lawyer here in Miami for nearly three decades. And the goal behind this is to introduce you to other local lawyers and talk about various aspects of the law and maybe one by one, start to take a few lawyers off of that kill list. My guest this morning is a good friend, an avid cyclist, who I rarely see in clothes like this. And an excellent lawyer, Karen Jordan, and Karen. Welcome. Good morning, David. Good morning. Alright, so let's talk about you because when we talk about local lawyers, you're about as local as it gets, okay. You grew up down here. And then you go to Miami Dade, and then to F IU and then to St. Thomas. That is correct. But there's a gap in there. So let's talk about that. Because before you were a lawyer, you had another life. I did. Before I was an attorney. I was a practicing sports, my massage therapist for about 1112 years, and I worked on athletes such as yourself. Alright, so how does somebody then go from, from being a sports massage therapist, and everything else to going to law school seems to be not a natural transgression, maybe a little, you know, sort of a 180 jump. That is true. When I was younger, I had intended to go to law school. And then I went out west and I got married. And I spent a few years living that life and traveling. And then I ended that. And I came back to Miami and I decided, you know, I need to get myself back on track to where I want it to be in my life. And I went back to school, and I continued the education. And that's where it led me today. All right. So, what drew you to law school, I had always been interested in something that used my mind. I was very happy doing what I was doing. But I didn't feel like it really used my intellectual assets, so to speak. So, I really wanted to do that. And I did like the fact that you were able to be involved with people, you were able to help people. And at that point, I just really wanted to become a lawyer to go out there and make my own business doing that. And you did because you didn't come out and start with a firm or anything else you started your own firm. So, did you go to law school, right? I did. I'd always worked for myself, I had the joke that if if I worked for anybody, I would probably get fired anyway. So, I might as well just make my business. And I have a business degree. So, my degree from NYU was in business marketing. So, I already had that under my belt, I knew what I needed to do. The marketing is in complete aspect, because you can be a great lawyer, but running a business is a completely separate endeavor. It's funny, that's a conversation I have with a lot of friends. And I think it's a deficiency in law school. Because I think yes, they train you to become a lawyer. And there are a lot of great lawyers. But a lot of lawyers don't know how to run a law firm. They don't know the business end of it. True. A lot of lawyers that come into law school, they don't necessarily want to run their own business. They do like, you know, for different reasons. They want to, you know, work where somebody can go in and out and then not have the responsibility of running the business. But for me, I love business. I love running a business. So, I knew what to do. And I can tell you yes, I was working maybe 100 hours a week, the first couple years, you know, moving my own desks, you know, setting up my own accounting. I can't tell you how many Sundays and Saturdays I spent knowing that learning the law because you do not have a mentor you are learning as you go. It really teaches you the hard lessons that you never forget, especially the first time you go before a court, and you don't have somebody telling you what to do. And so you learn. It makes you a better lawyer. No question. No question. I mean, it's trial by fire. You know? Yes. So, alright, so you open your own firm? And have you always dealt with domestic and divorce and immigration? Is that where the focus started? No, actually, interestingly enough, in law school, I was more interested in intellectual property law. I had always been involved in music during my younger life. And so, I was geared towards that. And I actually did an internship with Mr. Wolf, who's a very well renowned intellectual property attorney and I did an internship there. And I found that I would have had to have joined a law firm to do that. And I wasn't inclined to do that. I actually rented some office space in another attorney's office who was retiring and it kind of just fell in my lap Believe it or not, Were his older clients moving out were Family Law clients and some immigration clients. And I just took them on. And I learned as I went, and I was involved, and it was a good business, and I delved into it, and I found out that I was very good at it. Alright, so let's delve into it. Okay, because this is one i think that's always an interesting topic, just because it's either affected everybody personally, or affected someone they know. divorce. I mean, it's, it's, you know, we're over the 50%. Mark, I think, and most marriages are sort of almost set up to fail. It's a begins now. So, let's talk about divorce law and sort of trends that you see in that, and I want to talk about the pandemic as well, and how that's affected. But what was the appeal of doing domestic work, or domestic work is very personal, I find that I am a very personal attorney. When my clients come to me, I am not afraid to ask them the hard questions. I know what they're going through. I mean, I've been divorced. I've also my parents were divorced. I know what that's like. And so I really personalize it. And I think that people coming in understand that, that they can tell me what is going on. I'm also a very strong person, when a person comes in, and they're not quite sure I'm able to guide them and let them know that it's okay to tell me those personal things that I've heard them before, and that I can help them. And I think that puts them at ease. And it makes me feel good to be able to do that. Right? Do you tend to represent more husbands more wives, or it's whoever comes in, because I know some lawyers sort of, I don't know that they gear it that way? But it just winds up there. Oh, that's view if your wife, you should go see this lawyer, you know, if your husband, you need to go see this lawyer. Interestingly enough, I have a pretty 50/50 ratio. Some of the trends that I've noticed over the years is that the fathers have been having, getting more time sharing, you know, right now we started equal time sharing. Before many years ago, the presumption was that the mother would get them majority time sharing, the father would have to fight for that. Good thing is that now the premises that it starts at equal. And interestingly enough, I have a lot of fathers who actually majority time sharing now. So I've noticed that switch, and I'm not sure if it's because of the economics and more women are taking charge and going out there and doing, you know, businesses and work, or I don't know, but I've noticed that shift where the fathers are actually having majority time sharing, but I do represent equally both mothers, fathers, husbands and wives and do not have a majority of one or the other. You're in that delicate balance, you know, there's a thin line between love and hate, you know, for a reason, because things are very passionate, either way. And so, you see a lot of times in divorce, how do you deal with the aspect of, you know, I want to hurt this person? Now, you know, in other words, I mean, I want a pound of flesh I want? And how do you sort of get that separated to say, really, it's a business transaction, we've got to get it boiled down to that. I think a lot of times, it depends on if the representation on the other side is as equally level headed. Because Don't forget, there's a lot of moving parts in a divorce, you have your client, you may or may not have children, you have extended family members, if it's a post modification, after divorce, you might have a new spouse involved. You have opposing counsel, and then you have the judge. So there's a lot of moving parts in a divorce. And you also see people at their very worst, you don't see them at their best. And in order to get them to how do I say talk them off the ledge A lot of times, right, you really have to take them aside when they get emotional. And they get over the top. And you have to look at them and say, if I were to go into court with this, this would not work, this would not fly, you would lose and I don't want that to happen to you. So, take a step back. take three deep breaths, right, and let's do it together. And I've actually done that with my clients. And let's think about what you're saying. So I think that helps. And I think having the background that I have in doing even the therapy, you know, allowing people to just take their moment, and then move on from there is really helpful in divorce because it's so emotional and it feels like the bottom is dropping out. And I have to tell them, the bottom is not dropping out. It may feel like that but it will come back. Right. Okay. How do you deal with the delicacy of when you have kids involved? I mean, that's, I think, the most difficult and we often see it portrayed the kids sort of become pawns, you know, and they're used as weapons toward the other spouse. So how do you how do you kind of try to neutralize that and try to protect particularly young children in what's an extraordinarily stressful situation? Yes, that is an extraordinarily stressful situation for both parents, I think the most important thing that I have to look at is what is in the best interests of the child. And that is the standard that the courts look out. And at a certain point, the judge or whoever is administering the law over that case, will look at both parents and say, I really don't care, I'm thinking of your child. So again, I try to step back, and I try to look at that parent, if I represent them, and I say, you know, is this good for your child, you know, maybe the other person isn't an ogre. Or maybe the person is and you do have to step in and file an emergency motion and protect that child, which is often the case. So it each part of the case, whether you're doing the analysis, or whether you're actually in the case, you have to remind your client, you know, are you being over the top, you know, is the judge may be going to admonish you and say, you know, ma'am, or Sir, this is not in the best interest of your child, the other parents should have time sharing, or otherwise. And I think you have to walk them back from that and remind them of what is going on. We went through, and there was a great meme I saw yesterday, it's a guy running and he says me still processing 2020. And there's a guy right behind him that says 2022, just four months away. You know, we sort of went through 2020, in this pandemic and into 2021. And it's all kind of been a blur, but and we've seen a lot of different aspects. Obviously, bankruptcies have skyrocketed and everything else. But what about the impact on divorce, when you've got people now sequestered during lockdown, things like that? What have you seen as far as trends going in divorce? Well, real briefly, I'll take everyone back to that time, we know we're used to going into court, we're used to represent our clients in front of the jury, the lawyers and judges in the whole system was shut down, we had to learn how to do zoom, we had to learn how to present our evidence. I'm also a certified Family Law mediator. And we were learning how to do mediations via zoom. You know, life didn't stop. So, I can come in the court system in Miami Dade County, because they did they did come up to speed and they were exceptional. So that being said, during that timeframe, as far as a family matters, were concerned, if the parties were already separating divorce, we had the time sharing issues of you know, who was going to have them during the pandemic. Some parents could agree, and some parents couldn't during that time, we did the best we could I mean, there wasn't a point in time where some parents did not see their child for a portion of time whether the parent was sick, and the other parent was healthy, or whether the child was sick or not in school and had to be homeschooled. Yes, it was pandemonium if I can, you know, use that word. But it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. We controlled it. People were dealing with a lot. And they were trying to work together that time. Yeah, we've talked about it in some other shows. And I really do think that the judiciary for Miami Dade was out in front, then quickly went to zoom, they went for different they were trying different ways to have jury trials. And always And surprisingly, you know, at least in the civil end of things, were able to continue to move cases. And so, you know, a lot to be said about that. And we're far from it yet. I mean, unfortunately now, you know, yes, we sort of reopened the courthouse except now they've condemned the courthouse because it's falling down. And it's an unsafe building. So we have judges ready to work and lawyers ready to work. We just don't have a courtroom to go to anymore for a while. Yeah, I have to tell you the funny stories is that everybody knows what dogs they have now. Because you know, you're in a courtroom and you think it's a courtroom. But actually, it's the backdrop of the judges, right. And then your dog barks and then their dog barks. And then before you know it, you're showing everybody your dogs. So it's actually personalized people in a way that I don't think would have happened before. It's made us kind of realize that although we are judges, we are attorneys, you know, we are even the litigants, you know, we all have lives, and we all you know, our people, we shouldn't be feared as much. And I think one thing that pin them did positively was bring that out more. And, and you know, I now know what judges dogs are looking like, and it's personal. Absolutely. I mean, I had a young lawyer and got to know her and we're taking the deposition. And you know, she's homeschooling kids and this not and, you know, how are you doing? Well, I'm failing first grade virtually, but I'm doing okay in third grade because she's trying to practice law. She's trying to keep both our kids in front of their computers while they do it. So, it's been an incredible strain. But I think it's a testament to, again, human nature and the ability to adapt to these things. And, and I think the legal community has done a good job with that. And yes, but yeah, so I've met lots of kids and dogs that I didn't know they had. Exactly, exactly. I think one of the things that people forget is that during the process of divorce, that both people have feelings and emotions, and that the lawyers also have feelings and emotions. And also, you know, we're dealing with a lot of plates in the air. And they that they don't realize because I understand they're encapsulating what they're going through. And so, I tried to explain to them how the system works. And I think it's important for people to know how the system works. In so many times, I have a client that maybe had a prior lawyer, and they said, I walked into court, I had no idea what was going on. I had no idea why was there no idea, you know, and so it's really incumbent upon us as specifically Family Law Attorneys, when there are emotions. And there are children that are properties involved, their life savings practically sometimes, is that you break it down, I'm going in for this reason, this is what's expected of you. This is what you need to know, this is how you need to prepare. And that's really important because you're nervous, the client, not nervous, but the clients, they don't know what's going to be asked of them. If it's a trial, and there's cross examination. You know, you need to prepare your client to be bombarded maybe with them pleasantries. So I think it's important for the lawyer to prepare your client to also know that there's been mediation available, which is a wonderful tool. I mean, as a mediator, I try to always support that and say mediation is a tool that can alleviate not only the cost, which is a high cost, right to divorce, or any part of the family law process. You know, it's not insurance related, we can't take a settlement, it is basically out of your pocket or out of the other party's pocket. So, it's important to know you have to find other ways to solve the problem and that this is a bubble in time of your life. It is not your whole life, that it This too shall pass. And that you can go on to do the least amount of damage to yourself and others during the process was one of my favorite bumper stickers years ago. And it's a little dated, but years ago, bumper sticker said love is grand divorce is 50 grand. So it's, it's it is an expensive process. One of the things that I had read articles about and would like your thoughts on is the collaborative process now? Is that something you see that's going on? And can you explain how that works? Okay, I have thoughts about the collaborative process, I hopeful, but in the end, it can start a collaborative, and then it typically doesn't end in a collaborative fashion. And then the collaborative lawyer has to withdraw. That's part of the process, if you enter into collaborative agreement for that type of dissolution of marriage. Typically, my experience has not worked. That's just my experience. It is an interesting concept to me, because, as you alluded to, so you can hire a lawyer, both sides can have lawyers, but those lawyers have to agree that they won't go on with litigation if you can't deal and resolve it through the collaborative process. So in theory, it sounds good. But you're saying I'm saying if you have an agreement with your party, just get a lawyer and have an agreement, write the case, I mean, you don't really need to go through all the collaborative process. And that's just again, not taking away from collaborative attorneys of their process. But that's something that works in their system. But from my you know, 23 years of being an attorney and Family Law, I have found that if you do have an amicable divorce, just create a settlement agreement, right? Go through the easy process, and then it's done. Because at that point, if you do have that, and it does fall by the wayside, you keep your attorney, you then it becomes litigation, and then you move on is you don't have to start all over to restart. Right, right. Right. Okay. So we talked about divorce, let's talk about the byproducts of divorce, the other aspects of domestic law. And I'm sure the pandemic has had a big effect on this, people lose their jobs, or people are now working at home, or they're not making as much money or they voluntarily changed and did something during the pandemic. How does that all get affected? And what happens then to the agreements that are in place? Yes, modification, I would say it's a substantial part of my practice. And for the viewers a modification is when you have maybe a final judgment of divorce, and a marital settlement agreement or mediated settlement agreement. And through substantial changes, there needs to be a post modification of that agreement, so that you can start from a different point in place of your life. And there have been many of them a lot of that going on. Now. What happens with that is if somebody has lost their job, and it's long term, then we have to go back in and assess if this long term was voluntary? Was it involuntary? So there's a lot of parts that go into it. Also, did one party have to remove a child from school for various reasons? And then do we have to modify where that child now is going to school if there's no agreement, or if one party was forced to move, so the modifications can be just as difficult as the actual divorce sometimes It's another process, it's very similar to to the actual beginning of the divorce, except now you have to show why things have changed. But I encourage people to do a modification. Because if it's not working, and your child is five or six, you've got a lot of years to deal with that the way it is, it's not working. So go ahead and make that move if you need to. What about other aspects of things, custody battles that arise maybe after the divorce? So, you know, we're going to share custody or whatnot. But then there are now accusations against one spouse with that child? How does that all get impacted and how the parties deal with it? Very, very difficult. I'm sure. It's, it's a, it's one of those cases, and one of these areas of family law, that has to be tread on very carefully. The allegations are serious. You know, a lot of people get angry, especially with domestic violence, you know, people make accusations because they didn't get what they wanted, or, you know, it did happen. So, you know, you really have to vet them. And you really have to question your client, you have to know that what you're doing is something that you feel is not frivolous to the court. And I think that's important for the attorney to make sure that you, you talk to your client, you find out if this is correct, because it does have an impact on the other party's job, on their livelihood on their time-sharing. And, and I speak to other lawyers when I say that not only the clients, that you have to be realistic, and not make false allegations. That being said, as far as child custody, you do have to again, make sure that the best interests of the child are front center. And that's what the court looks at. So, you want to make sure you pick that apart as well. Because you don't want the person to go forward and perhaps jeopardize what they have in their current time-sharing if they're unreasonable, because the judges don't look kindly on that, right. So, we want to make sure our client has a reality check while we go through the process. If it is realistic, and it is something that should be done, then we go for we file our petition for modification, we set it before the court, and we have litigation we have to or modification as through mediation. So, it's another whole portion of the whole new case, basically, I deal a lot with military law, My office is south. So, I'm very close to the airbase. And the relocation is a lot, you know, we do a lot of relocation cases. And that has a whole different structure of law that you have to attach to it. So again, you have to make sure your client has a realistic expectation of what will occur and explain to them and if they have all the criteria, then you move forward with it. So you say military law, is that separate and distinct? I mean, they have their own body of law that controls in many aspects. They do. Okay, not all but in many they do. There are specific provisions that deal only with Military Divorce, regarding a pensions, regarding you know, insurance, regarding relocation. I've represented people who've been overseas in Japan, I've done trials via zoom, you know, people are in other countries. So, the whole relocation process may be a little different with that and other aspects. It's still a divorce, but there are just some different legal ramifications for that and actually different laws that come into play. Interesting. Alright. So, what advice do you have for people that are contemplating divorce? Well, I always like to say I'm a big believer in marriage, and I'm a big believer in divorce. You know, marriage. Again, I have to remind people marriage is a contract. You know, people don't like prenuptial is what I say when you say I do, you've entered into a prenuptial dictated by the laws of the state of Florida. Well, that's true. That's an interesting point. You have already without knowing entered into prenuptial agreement, right. So if you want to get really romantic draft your own prenuptial vows. People don't know that. So what I'm saying about family law and divorce in general is, you know, try to try to go to counseling. I'm a big believer in marriage counseling, if there's no domestic violence involved in anything that was serious in nature, and tries to see if you can work that out. If you can't then find the right lawyer. You know, make sure that it's explained to you divorce is a personal matter. I mean, my life will go on your life, right? So you have to like your attorney, you have to trust your attorney. You have to feel like you're being represented in divorce should be contemplated very seriously, on behalf of the children, but go for it. If you feel like this marriage is not working for you. And it's an emotional business, as I like to call it. It is to people coming into partnership, and in various degrees, whether it's financial, whether it's emotional, whether it's childcare, and once you separate, your life is different. So prepare yourself for that and Get your ducks in a row. And, and, and be honest about it, don't try to manipulate the process because, in the end, it all comes out in the wash. So make it simple, make it straightforward. You know this is your child, this is somebody that she was loved in the past, and now you don't. But okay, let's be human. That's why I try to tell my clients. Well, it's good advice. And I do the same, obviously, personal injury people are dealing with tragedy, or wrongful death cases, is find a lawyer that you can ever relationship with because it's going to be a long term relationship. I mean, these you know, it's not okay, here, bam, you know, file three things, I'll see you, we'll have a phone call, that'll be it. It's a long, most times pretty drawn out, litigious process. And so having somebody that you can communicate with, that you're comfortable with, I think is extraordinarily important when they pick a lawyer. And let's talk about one other aspect, because you said, You're a certified mediator, okay. I'm a big proponent of mediation. We had Stan Blake on a few weeks ago, who was one of my favorite people. But, you know, one of the top Circuit Court judges for so many years, and now he's a fantastic mediator, have used him and he just brings that whole skill set to it. And it is amazing sometimes how cases you think, really have no shot of getting resolved, but you get everybody in the same room virtually or otherwise. And things happen. So in the divorce context, talk about those mediations, in the divorce context, being a mediator, it's a very active process, especially via zoom, right? You have to be a technological wizard at best. But in general, mediation is you really, from a mediator standpoint, you have to listen. And you have to, again, manage people's expectations. It's a confidential process. So you have to be very wary of going from one side to another if you're in a caucus, which means that you're with one separate party and their attorney or alone, dealing with that. So it's a respectful process. And that is one main component that I start within my mediations is a respectful process. And it's here if it's an opportunity for both of you to maybe take a step back and realize that in the end, you don't have control, if you go before the judge, right now you have control. So let's manage those expectations. And let's get forward a plan that can be workable for both parties, you have to move each other to the middle, as best as you can. And again, as you know, everybody says mediation is successful with neither party is happy, nobody's happy. And then again, again, the confidential processes, definitely play mediation, it can take hours, it can take two hours, it can take 10 hours. And again, I think the most important thing as a mediator is to be confident in yourself, and what you're proposing to each party, and also being secure that the people know that what they're telling you is definitely not spoken about unless you give consent, right and that you can go to the other party and let them know if you just cannot agree then we can agree partially on certain issues, especially family all you can have child timesharing agreed upon but not property division or equitable distribution Do you know? So in family law, we can bifurcate things and a portion of it have it agreed to and a portion of a go before the court. So that's important to know, if you're a little hesitant, you have control, and you can do this in different ways. And that's as far as mediation is concerned. I think I really, very, you know, I think it's a great, great part of divorce law and an opportunity for people to settle their case. Well, there you go. One more hopefully, that we can take off the kill list. Karen, it's really been a pleasure. It's an area of law that I know little or nothing about, but is so critical, as I said, because we all know, either direct close impact a family member friends, and I get calls all the time, you know, hey, I'm thinking about getting divorced, who do I talk to, you know, and finding that right lawyer I think is critical. So hopefully, that's when we can take off the kill list. Next time. I see you are probably in cycling gear and we'll be out in heat somewhere. But pleasure to see you in this environment. hope you all enjoyed it. And we'll be back next week with another episode of first off let's kill all the lawyers.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. Uttered in a Shakespeare line back in the 15th century, which kind of drew raucous applause. Still today sort of holds out when you bring that line-up, people kind of smirk or chuckle and think it's not a bad idea. I'm David Heffernan. I've been practicing personal injury law in Miami for almost three decades, and I'm an adjunct faculty at the University of Miami School of Law and their trial program. My goal behind putting this program together was to bring in other local South Florida lawyers. And maybe one by one, we can take a few of them off the list. My guest this morning, a guy that checks a lot of boxes for me. He's a good friend. He's a great lawyer. He is a Columbus High School grad. He's a University of Miami law school grad. He's an avid cyclist, we ride quite a bit together. So pretty good guy who gets a lot of things done. Welcome Domingo Rodriguez. Thank you, David. It's good to be here. Good. Good. All right. Well, let's talk because there's a lot of things that interest me about you. Your background is interesting. You came were born in Cuba, right? came over here. But you're true, you know, sort of Miami kid, right? That's true. Greg, I grew up literally blocks from where we're sitting today, and still live blocks where we're sitting today. So, you've kept your world small when it comes to Miami. Fair enough. But I was interested in looking so my family background is in the marine industry. And yet at the same time, you were doing things at South Miami hospital. So, we've sort of got healthcare provision and Marine, and you go to law school Why? Well, that's a good question. And it I made friends with a guy that I sold a boat to who was a very good lawyer that most people, at least in our world know a gentleman by the name of Stuart Grossman. And Stuart's very good friend of mine, right? So, Stuart, I had always I was always interested in law. But during the process of selling Stuart a boat, he mentioned, he said to me one day, Domingo, you know, you would be a good lawyer because you're a good salesman. And that's what we do as lawyers, we sell our case to a jury. So, Stuart, is he gave him, I was sort of leaning in that direction. But he kind of gave me the final push. Stuart can be very persuasive when he wants Oh, for sure. Oh, great guy, good firm Andy off is one of my closest friends been with him for forever. So I think very fondly of them. So it gets you into law school. And then I know, you come out of law school. You actually start in with a friend of mine, your former partner, john Aronson in the maritime field. Well, actually, I want to go back, this is what I wanted to talk to you about. You actually started with Stanley Rosenblatt. True. Okay. So I got to spend a few minutes on this just because I'm fascinated because I think, you know, again, anybody that's been around Miami, or in the legal community anywhere, know, Stanley Rosenblatt and what was it $145 billion verdict, you know, a first on behalf of the Air Flight attendants, and then Floridians and everything else. And of course, form the basis he took on tobacco companies and formed the basis of the whole angle progeny now that all of these tobacco cases go forward with that premise. But a little bit of a fascinating guy because a mom and pop shop, and the guy took it on big tobacco. Right. So tell me how you start with Stanley Rosenblatt? Well, it comes back to my tenure, if you will, as a law clerk with the firm that was formerly known as Spence, Payne, matching, and Grossman when I was in law school. And truth be told, when I was in law school, I wanted very badly to stay with that firm when I graduated, but the stars just didn't line up. In one day, JB Spence who's a senior guy at that firm is also very well known and recognized down the street from him. I'm very close friends with his son, John, I used to vacation with him all the time down at Ocean reef. There you go. JB was a fascinating, fascinating man. JB walks into the law clerks' room that the Old Firm one day and he says Domingo, I just had lunch with Stanley Rosenblatt and he's looking for an associate. So I told him about you. If you're anyone you know who he is? And I was, of course, I know who Stanley is. So he said he, I told him that if you were here, I'd send you over for an interview. So I went across the street, met with with Stanley and his then partner, Neil Roth, who ironically is now partners with Stuart Grossman, right, and they interviewed and hired me on the spot. And then I started working with them the next one day and I ended up about a year and a half working with Stanley and from there I his way My maritime career really started after I left Stanley, I went to work for a firm that doesn't exist anymore. But it was at the time it was called Hayden and Milliken and Coral Gables a very well known firm that focused on maritime law. And the reason I was attracted to maritime law is what you alluded to earlier, as I grew up, my family growing up had a boatyard in North Miami, so I grew up around the water and around boats, and I was always interested in the I went to law school wanting to be a maritime lawyer. Okay, so I, which is probably not common, I think, you know, most people that go to law school end up in a field where they get a job. Yeah, well, the problem is, and I've handled, you know, death and accident cases out there, the problem is, then you get into maritime law, and you take a lawyer like me, who understands sort of the civil law and everything else, and you get into the weeds of the maritime law, and you're like, whoa, wait a minute, like, this is a little more complicated. We had a horrible case in the keys, but we had to measure just exactly how far off land was and if this mangrove is sticking up at low tide does that count versus this and gets a little complicated maritime law can be a quagmire for non-maritime attorneys. And I would not recommend an attorney who's not really versed in maritime law to take on a maritime case, because it's just a recipe for disaster. The maritime law community in Miami is pretty small. Everybody knows everybody, right? But so when we see somebody, I can tell you that during the years, I was practicing, almost exclusively maritime law, when I would see an attorney and attorney on the other side of the case, if I didn't know him, he wasn't really a maritime lawyer. Right. And it was, it often didn't turn out well for them. Alright, so let's segue. And again, one of the things I like to do on this program is talking about things that are our current in law. And this is actually, you know, we're going go back and talk to civil rights because that's sort of where your career has evolved to, so doing a maritime but evolved into civil rights. And I say, current and trending, although, it goes back to the 1800s when it was first enacted. Correct, you know, but then since dormant but so let's talk about civil rights, and let's tread into excessive force by police and claims against police officers and, and kind of tell me how your career shifted into that. And then I want to talk about that type of law. So I got involved in civil rights litigation, about 12 years ago, and it was almost accidental. And a very good friend that started with one case, a very good friend of mine, who's a criminal defense attorney had a client who had a problem, excessive use of force interaction with a police officer, and he asked me what I thought about it, he was a criminal defense attorney, he'd come out of the public defender's office and was then and still is in private practice. We started talking about the case. And at that point in time, I had never done a civil rights case, but I was interested in it. And so anyway, we, after I got a handle on what needed to be done, we filed that lawsuit in federal court, and federal court because of my Admiralty background was is a place where I'm comfortable. Right. And there's, you know, most nonlawyer, people don't appreciate the difference between federal court and state court litigation, it's two different worlds. And many lawyers, as you probably know, don't want to have anything to do with the federal court because it is so different. The rules are different. It's perhaps more formal, much more formal. Well, I think, much more fun, because I do both but predominantly state court, but I do my fair share of federal court. But I think again, you know, federal court, sort of all the ducks need to be lined up ahead of time. It's a lot more writing and briefing right than state court, which is a lot more, I think, oral argument and pushing your cases in different ways. So you're right. I think people tend to shy away because they're like, wait, I got an issue with you. I got an issue. We can stay in court, I call the judge, we kind of get before the judge and we hash it out. I got an issue in federal court. Well, I got to brief it, you got to respond, I got to reply. And then oftentimes, we wait a long time, while you move forward with the litigation. So it's a whole different animal, correct. That's true. So that case led that case got some publicity in the local media. And that reporter from the Herald wrote about the case a couple of times, it was on a couple of the local TV stations reported on it. And so from that, just by word of mouth, evolved from there, the next thing I know, I'm getting calls from other lawyers, from former clients. And today, I would say that a good 40% of my practice, maybe a little more even his civil rights litigation, and I still do some of the maritime stuff, but not as much as I used to at one point in time. It was almost my entire practice, right? Well, let's focus on because again, you know if we paint with a broad brush of civil rights litigation, we can do you know, yeah, and we could do a 40-hour podcast and talk about all of that let's isolate now because again, I think it's in the forefront and you know, unfortunately, we've just seen it now in Miami Beach, right, with officers being arrested very quickly for use of excessive force and the videotape that's out there so let's talk about excessive force and what people can do if they think there's a claim against the police because then that's one of those hard things to take on do you take on a police department and what's happened but we're seeing more and more of it. Why is that? I think that in the past year and a half, we've seen some real high profile cases that have have we've seen the tape on TV about the proliferation of cell phone video of security cameras, wherever we go. I personally pay a lot of the attention that I when I'm walking around in a mall or in a shopping center wherever or in a store, there's security cameras everywhere just because I'm tuned into that I I note I have noticed that and the other thing that has also I think the there was videotape this morning on one of the local TV stations have an incident that happened overnight in Chicago. Okay, we're in the video was body cam video. So right police the use of body cam by police departments is has now become almost standard practice. There still are some departments that don't use body cams, but body cams have. I think they help in cases where there's a clear excessive use of force situation. And also it cuts both ways because it'll protect the police correct it. It's easier, you know, people can eyewitnesses. As you know from litigation, eyewitnesses can tell wildly different stories. But if it's on video, it's a lot easier to come to a conclusion. A case in point would be Miami Beach, the five police officers in the incident that happened in Miami Beach last weekend. So yeah, I think that the tech, just the technology that we have available to us makes it easier to understand what happens in a lot of these police interactions. And it has been brought to the forefront in the spotlight to the extent that there are bills in Congress now. You know, seeking to make some reforms in policing. So I think that's one of the biggest factors, that it's become prominent To me, it's almost amusing because I've been dealing with issues of qualified immunity, and municipal liability, and those kinds of issues that we talk about in federal civil rights cases. For years, and now everybody's talking about right well, and in addition to body cam, everybody's walking around with this. And the footage is there it was funny, because last show I had on a watcher who's a private investigator, who we use quite a bit and again, in the personal injury realm of things, whether it's a premises liability case, or an auto accident or anything else, getting people on the scene quickly and looking at it. Is there a camera on I 95. You know, which they have if the OTS got cameras there, or in the mall where there's an incident or, you know, all of a sudden to be able to secure that videotape. It's worth its weight in gold when it comes to a burden of proof. Right. So you look at those things, but let's now kind of just peel it back a little bit because clearly, police officers have a very dangerous job. They are at threat oftentimes. Okay. So where does that line get drawn as to what excessive forces? You know, I mean, some good easy, you know, if anybody has seen the tape of the Miami Beach Police, you know, it's one of the reasons I think the arrest came about they quickly when a guys was handcuffed on the ground, and they're kicking him, you know, you're not in threat there. But where did those lines get drawn when someone has an incident with police officers? Well, let me say first that I couldn't agree with you more. I think that police officers have a very difficult and dangerous job. And we have a great deal of respect for them. I know several police officers and ex-police officers well, and I've we've talked about these issues and it is frankly a thankless job in many ways. It's a lot like police officers are a lot like lawyers in the sense that everybody likes to make fun of lawyers. That's all they need, until they need a lawyer and the same The same is true with police everybody, it's easy to watch a videotape of the what happened on Miami Beach, and then sort of condemned the entire department, right? Which isn't fair. And everybody likes to do that until they need the police when you win when you need it, when you're in a situation where you need to call 911. You want them to be there right now. Right? So we have to honor and respect the work that they do and understand that the that a lot of times they're working under extremely stressful circumstances. But having said that, there are hard lines that cannot be crossed. And there are in, unfortunately, in lead in these kinds of cases, too. There's also some very broad range of gray cases, which so when we look at, when we look at a civil rights zone, he comes up with a potential civil rights case, the first thing that we look at is, was there, what was the reason for the police interaction? Was it was there a probable cause a reasonable suspicion for the police officer to initiate the contact with these with the citizen? Where the person they don't necessarily have to be a citizen? Right? Well, that's true. Yeah. So the, you know, that's the first sort of threshold question, what, how did this interaction occur? Was there probable cause for the police officer to stop and speak to the person question them sometime soon as, which is critical, because in the absence of probable cause, I mean, it changes some of the immunities that are offered to some of the police officers, right, because there are levels of protection. And I want to talk about that in a minute afforded to cities and municipalities and the officers so that you can't just treat them as an average citizen to say, okay, you did this. So now I get to sue you. You know, there are different levels. But let's go back to talk about sort of what, what rises to excessive force? Well, in general, it's, well, legally, it's an if we're talking about the liability of an individual police officer, and the concept of qualified immunity, police officers, obviously, have they carry weapons that are authorized to use force in circumstances where it's warranted. And that's the question when is it warranted. And in a law enforcement scenario, they are police officers are allowed to use force, even deadly force in a situation where some there's an imminent danger or imminent peril, or somebody has just committed a violent crime. And they need to use deadly force to either apprehend someone who's committed a violent crime, or prevent a violent crime from continuing or occurring in the first place. So that's sort of very broad brush where deadly force or strong force can be used. And that is an objective standard. It's a the, the case law says that a, it's an analysis, essentially boils down to whether a reasonably objective police officer would have thought that force was necessary at that under those circumstances. And I think that's one of the things that's important is, is to strip away, sort of the politicization of it, because we've seen that occur. Now in a lot of different things, okay, where everything becomes politics, I do a lot of medical malpractice, okay. And I look at these things, and people are often hesitant why I don't want to sue a doctor. But there are duties that doctors have, okay. And again, standard of care as defined by other doctors. within that community. There are duties that police officers have, and I try to explain to people no different than a lawyer. But if you hired a contractor to build your house, and the wall falls down, everybody goes, Oh, I got no problem. I'll sue the contractor. But then all of a sudden, you get to different things. And they're like, well, I don't want to sue my doctor. I don't want to sue a police officer. But we're a society of laws. So we have standards that define I guess, what's appropriate practice for police officers, doctors, lawyers, and we hold people to that. So you know, again, I'm 100% supportive the police department and everything else. But there are times that they go beyond the duties that restrict them. And that's when cases like this arise, right, the to put put it in a slightly different way they have legal power and authority to enforce the laws. That's what they do. And that can sometimes involve using force even deadly force. But together with that comes a big responsibility. And it's not inappropriate to hold them to that higher standard when they cross the line. So and that is our job, our job I view, part of what our job is, is to protect people when the police do cross the line. And with looting to what we were talking about earlier with the video with videotape, in recent years, we've seen a lot of examples where it's easy to make the call. Where it is like the guy who is flying on the ground down with his handcuffs behind his back and police officer walks up to him starts kicking him that's clearly over the line. But there's a lot of other kids circumstances where it's not so clear. And even when you have videotape, it's not always so clear, because you don't know what may have happened before the videotape the camera and even body cam video is often Herky jerky, and it's not the guy isn't pointing in the right direction. And there's a lot of things that even though we have video, there's a lot of things that may have happened that we don't see on that video. So we have to look at the totality of the circumstances, you know, and figure out whether or not there we have a violation of law, either federal law or state law. Alright, so let's just take in, take an example. somebody thinks that they've been, you know, a victim of excessive force by a police officer. What are the steps that then go from there? Well, if someone thinks that, and we're talking about excessive use of force cases now, right, because there's two arenas in which these cases can be litigated. One is the federal court system, and the other is an in state court. And there's advantages and disadvantages for both. And you really have to look at the case to see whether it's a case it's more appropriate for state court, or more appropriate for federal court, depending upon the circumstances because the standard of or the burdens of proof. And the elements of proof that you need to make are very different between the two. The court systems. I don't want to get too deep into the law. But in state court, your claims are the general common law, assault and battery, false imprisonment, intentional infliction of emotional distress, those causes of actions that probably most tort lawyers in the state of Florida know and understand. in federal court, it's much different in we're going back now to what you alluded to earlier, the Civil Rights Act of 1871. Right? And what we all sort of refer to in shorthand as 1983 cases, which refer I was thought it through was your we won the national championship? So it's a good thing for me. I mean, yeah, section 1983. Is, is where you see, and now we get into constitutional violation. Right. Correct. So if you're going to file a claim under Section 1983, what are the elements that you have to prove? Well, there's typically there's two sets of defendants, you have a petition under Title 42. Section 1983 is a federal law that gives someone who whose constitutional rights have been violated a potential cause of action against not only the individual officer or officers involved, but also against the municipality or the county, whoever employs the police department. You don't sue the for example, not to pick on the city Miami police department but you don't sue the city of Miami police department, you sue the city of Miami, correct? Because they're employees of the city of Miami, and in just so their defenses, their potential defenses are different. Individual police officers have what we have been discussing as in terms of what's called qualified immunity. And that essentially says that they have immunity from using access or force in any degree really, when it's justified when there's probable cause when they're within the definition that we spoke about a a little while ago. municipalities have a different in the common law. You're I'm sure you're familiar with the doctrine what we call respondeat superior your which is the basic concept that an employer is liable. You're in the course and scope of your employment employers responsible. Well, that doesn't apply to price in in 1983. litigation to prove a claim against the municipality or the employer, the police, you have to show that the municipality engaged in a pattern and practice of allowing encouraging turning a blind eye to constitutional violations. And that is a pretty high bar. In most cases, it's a pretty high bar to, to be able to show custom policies and practices because first of all, I don't know of any police department who intentionally has, right a written pocket or write it in here. Yeah, here's you're not going write it, you're going do Yeah, but what you do see is you see circumstances where police departments don't do good investigations of alleged police misconduct, they will do in an inadequate or sometimes not at all internal affairs investigation. Again, going back to sort of turning that blind eye, where we may not have written this down, but we're sorting endorsing it, because we're not enforcing it. Right. And then together with that, there is a culture among certain departments, it's worse in some departments in this area in South Florida than in others, but what people refer to as the blue wall of silence, and police officers all know what that means. And, and there are departments that have a serious problem with that because no police officer is ever going to in their terms rat out and a fellow officer. So that's, that's a that's an obstacle. Because if there is no reliable reporting mechanism within the department to keep track of police, misconduct and Police Complaints, then it's difficult from a later on from our perspective to prove that pattern and practice. So oftentimes, how it gets proven, indirectly or circumstantially by because they didn't do a good investigation, because they didn't do an eye investigation, because you can do public records requests, all police records are subject to public records requests, right. So we when we look at a case, one of the first things that we do in every case is that we do public records request to the agency and involved for the police officers personnel file, their internal affairs files, any records of any discipline or any other prior incidents. And that is a part of the evaluation process as to whether or not we're going to accept the case and take it on because the bar is high in federal court. Now, another difference between the state court arena and federal litigation is in state court, the whoever you sue the it's typically the municipality, you can only Sue an individual police officer in state court, if they're really acting out almost outside of the course of scope of their employment, yet they have to prove that they did something to someone maliciously, recklessly, with conscious indifference to the consequences of their actions. problem is when you do that, then that it takes human mental municipality liability away is you can't have it both ways. That's true. It's dicey. So going back to Section 1983. So those are constitutional things. So that would cover under the Fourth Amendment, excessive force, unlawful searches, seizure, right, false arrest, false imprisonment, those all fall under that umbrella. Most of the 1983 cases that we see are Fourth Amendment cases as you based on the things that you just mentioned, there are some and I've handled some Eighth Amendment cases in for prisoners, people who get abused or have a problem within a prison system. And those cases would come under the Eighth Amendment, the cruel and unusual punishment prohibition. But in there, there's first amendment 1983 cases as well. But we don't see nearly as many of those kinds of cases as the Fourth Amendment violations. I think that when in the national discourse, it's been going on for the past since really, the George Floyd in the Briana Taylor cases became common parlance in our country. The majority of cases such as those two cases or fourth amendment cases, and that's fair to say that it's mostly 19. Most 1983, litigation is fourth amendment. One thing I want to touch on quickly while we're on fourth amendment, then I want to get this wrapped up is is one of the other things and you just mentioned George Floyd in some of these other cases, but one of the things that has come out of that is that officers can be held liable for not preventing another officer from exercising excessive force. So talk about that a little bit, which is an interesting thing. And we saw it in the George Boyd case. Now. We're just standing by while your partner or fellow officers doing something may not be acceptable anymore. Well, I would say it's always been so right. And there's a long line of cases that deal with an officers duty to intervene when they see a fellow officer committing what is clearly an unconstitutional action, beating somebody up with needlessly, essentially, or shooting someone. So those cases have been around. They're not as, as comp, they're not that common. And I think that one of the problems with those kinds of cases is often causation, right. But there is, in fact, and people should know that, that if they're involved with an officer, they get a traffic stop, and they get a call for backup. And the next thing, you know, there's three or four officers there, they the officers who did who are not maybe directly involved in an arrest or a DUI stop, or whatever it may be. They, as you say, very correctly, they have a duty if they're there, they have a duty to intervene and protect people from a fellow officer if he's acting outside of the parameters that they're legally allowed to act. Alright, a lot to digest. It's what we wanted to go over but, but just sort of scratching the surface. And I appreciate Domingo coming in, because again, this is something we're seeing, I think, in light of technology, in light of social media, you know, we're seeing more and more of this. And unfortunately, the world of politics, that's sort of smearing the entire message on both sides of everything. But it is a fascinating system, that those laws have been back to the 1800s that are levels of protection, obviously on both sides, significant levels of protection to make sure that the police and municipalities are protected and have to be held to certain standards. And likewise, on the other side, you've got a heavy burden of proof. But here's sort of the things that you have to do. And there are rights of redress for people that are victims of this. Sure, absolutely. And, you know, the title 42 1983 that we're talking about, has been around since 1871. It was a series of federal laws that were passed in after the Civil War. But there was really never any 1983 litigation until about the 60s. Civil Rights Movement, right. And, and, and under even under 1983, there was never any municipal liability until about the mid late 70s. Mid late I think 78 is when that was added in. So it is kind of a new field of law. And it's now it was a kind of an obscure area of law for a long time. And the events of the past year, year and a half have really brought it now to the forefront. So it's a good conversation to have with people so that they understand their rights. And I think that if anything good can come out of this. I can't say this enough that I do even though I sue police officers and police departments, we are very selective on the cases that we that we take, because we're not these cases are not inexpensive to bring in huge investment in time and as well as money. So when we evaluate a case we're we try to be careful and we look at it from both sides. I think that one of the things that has happened here is that a lot of police officers and a lot of departments are understanding that they have to do more, they have to have the police, they have to have more what's referred to as CIT comp, conflict intervention training, or crisis intervention training, excuse me, and and then just have more empathy, I think is the right word. Now I've heard so many police officers say I deal with criminals every day. I'm a street sweeper in the city of Miami, I pick up the garbage, which is a tough thing. And there's no doubt there's a lot of lunatics out there. Yeah. And they use those words, they say those things, but I think that they need to understand that what we were talking about earlier that with the authority and with the power also comes responsibility. And that's where I see the, from a societal point of view the value of having access to the courts to seek redress when that line is crossed. So that I I myself, I really enjoyed doing maritime law, I almost would say that I got involved in civil rights litigation almost by accident. It was a good friend called and said, I represented this guy and he I think he has I think he was mistreated by the police. Can you look at it and from that evolved, this whole new area of practice for me and it's really been It's a good feeling. When you have a case I'm I know you've experienced this before because we've talked about Sure. When you have a case and you get a good result and you feel that the case makes a difference, the case makes a difference because the police department does things to change the way they do things. So, we went in and one case that we have we, as part of a settlement we insisted that they the department start using body cams which they did not use prior to this incident. We insisted as part of non-monetary terms of the settlement included a citizen's review panel for to evaluate excessive use of force complaints against the department which they did not have. That any police of police-involved shootings would be should be investigated by an outside agency the Florida Department of law enforcement, if it's a small municipal department within Dade County, Miami Dade police department is a very good department and I know that they do these types of investigations for various departments around town. So, I it feels good when you do something that makes a difference for for our community. Well, and as much as I bash lawyers, I really do think it's trial lawyers that bring about a lot of change. In cases like these in products cases. You know, we're seeing it now in Surfside, we're going see changes in some of those laws to protect people in the future because we are society laws. We're talking about laws to go back to the 1800s. Shakespeare said in the 1500s. You know, first off, let's kill all the lawyers. Well, Domingo, here's one that maybe we can take off the list, and we'll take it one by one each week. Join us again next week for first off let's kill all the lawyers.

First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I'm David Heffernan and I'm a practicing lawyer in South Florida for about the last 30 years or so. And we put this together just because it's one of my favorite Shakespeare quotes and often gets misconstrued going back to the 1500s. But the one thing about that line is it got a lot of laughs when when it was uttered back in the 1500s. And even today, people kind of go, it's not a bad idea to get rid of some of those lawyers. So go here, bring other lawyers in bring other people to work with lawyers in kind of talk about the business end of things, and personalized some of it, and maybe one by one, take a few lawyers off the kill list. But I made it easy this morning, because I didn't bring a lawyer in. I'm very privileged. Only because I've known this guy is a very, very close personal friend for the vast majority of my life, but also been an integral part of my law practice, as I'd like to introduce Dave watcher of the watcher agency, one of I think, one of the top private investigators, not only in town, I mean, nationally, you've done a lot and everything else. But I've had a lot of fun. Getting to know you over the years, but more importantly in the practice of things, you know, really working hand in hand with you on a lot of cases. So first off, welcome. Well, thank you. nice introduction. Well, thank you. Well, you know, the thing is, and I was thinking about this as we came over. I actually go back with you so far that this was before I was in law school, and I was actually working for you. When I made the decision to go to law school, undercover I was I was doing some undercover work for some paper company. We were I was up in singer Island and we you hired me and and I rented a car and we got the route. So these paper trucks, and they would periodically follow these guys to find out who was you know, going home during during lunch hours or who wasn't dropping things off here and literally running on the beach one night, I wasn't sure what I was going to do. You know, I bounced around the NFL for a little bit. And that's when I came to the decision to go to law school. So yeah, you You make me do grunt work like that forced me to go to law school and get a real job. It was it was all good. But let's talk a little bit. Okay, you started out years ago in the public defender's office. So how does that evolve from what you did the public defender's office, what makes you go out and become a private investigator? Well, money was a big motivation. I worked for the state, I actually learned so much at the public defender's office, worked with tremendous attorneys. Guys, that taught me a lot about how to do my job. And as time went on, I realized there was a bigger fish out there to deal with and more challenges. And I wanted to start my own business. And it ended up in evolution. It took a lot of risk. I think a lot of lawyers, young lawyers go through that when they decide to go out on their own. And I had that same risk. And I was very fortunate that things worked out. Growing up here in Miami, I knew a lot of people. And so it was a natural fit. And here I am today and I'm almost ready to retire. I have my my son who's my partner. Now, Travis Wasser. And technology technology has changed. So he has really boosted up our agency through the technology side. And he's learned, learned a lot. And he's, he's out there doing going full time. Good stuff, good stuff. So let's let's talk about what is it? What does it mean to be a private investigator? Okay. I mean, because I think the scope of services you offer is going to shock some people as to just how broad that goes. I mean, you know, you can think of the easy things, okay, you know, we go out and it's a divorce case, and we do surveillance, and, you know, we get some videos that, you know, kind of make people uncomfortable and resolve issues, but but talk a little bit about the whole practice. Well, we really are a service industry that helps attorneys in their case in their cases, and we have multifunctions, you know, we work for all kinds of attorneys from divorce and marital situations, civil attorneys, which is plaintiff and defense and, and criminal attorneys. So our function is to assist the attorneys in their cases and try to help them bring the case forward, so that they can be prepared when they go to trial. Well, and I know because I personally, I mean, we bring you in on a case and it's it's just a tremendous asset, you become part of our litigation team. And and, you know, insurance companies, they often have their in house people, you know, they've got that ability to get these things. Done. But but for a small firm like Mark and I, to be able to bring somebody like you on a case and say, okay, from the onset, you know, hey, this, this just happened, this accident occurred or this incident occurred somewhere and immediately, we've sort of got eyes and ears on the ground, you know, we're able to get somebody like you and other investigators that work for you out there to kind of develop what was going on in the scene and who the potential witnesses are and develop all of that. So how do you see your role when when lawyers bring you in? Early in a case? Well, as time has changed, and in recent time, now, it's important for us to get out there as soon as possible after an incident occurs. Sometimes people look at it is like almost ambulance chasing, but it's not ambulance chasing, once we're hired by the attorney, it's important for us to get out there and talk to witnesses while it's fresh. And we have a system where we go to our databases and our investigative research and we find these people and before they get lost people move away Miami's got a lot of transient people that come and go. And so it's important to, to talk to these witnesses, because a lot of times the police, they don't concern themselves with keeping people around at scenes. And, and so a lot of those people get lost. So we have to get out there quick and and do our job. And that certainly helps the cases move forward. Let's say it's also a situation I think now, having somebody get out to an area, there's so much video cameras, on businesses and everything else to be able to get a lot of those businesses. It's great. They've got surveillance one now nowadays, I mean, bring cameras, me there's more stuff being caught on ring cameras of what's going on in the street. But you know, those businesses have systems and they rewrite and everything else. So if you don't get somebody out there quickly, you may lose that opportunity. And that can be that can be a game changer. In a case. While it's it's extremely important. That's one of the first things we do when we go and canvass an area. When I say Canvas, I mean, we go knock on doors, in a radius around where the incident occurred. And we're looking everywhere for cameras. And it's amazing how many cases we've solved through cameras. And a lot of times again, the police miss it because they're not so interested in cameras for a lot of reasons. We need those cameras, because every camera could pick up something different. That may be helpful in our case. Yeah, it's it's it's critical. And, and and the services go beyond that. And I'm gonna ask you to share a story just because it's my favorite story, because because I think it shows a couple of things shows the creativity of a guy like you, but even his things, civil as Service of Process. Sometimes, you know, lawyers have to get somebody served with papers. And sometimes people are trying to avoid that. So they may hire a private investigator, so So tell us about maybe one of your more interesting Service of Process cases. Well, there was a case that went back a few years, a very wealthy developer on Miami Beach, lived on a private island. And we were trying to serve Him because this father in law, wanted him served papers. He was trying to collect on some money that was owed. And I had tried to go in the front door, but they had a gate there, and bodyguards. And so that wasn't working out. So I put one of my guys, I told the client, I said, Hey, listen, he's out of the country. Right now I've got an informant that's told me that. He said, I don't care. I want you to be out there. 24 hours a day, seven days a week till we get up. said okay. That's good with me. So, I put one of my guys out on the causeway, and all of a sudden I get a call from him one day, and he goes, he's here. I go, What do you mean? He goes, I'm looking through my binoculars. And I see him and he's with several women and their nude sunbathing behind his beautiful mansion on this island. And I said, I'll be right there. So I go to sunbathing. You're actually planning on working. It's one of my better case. Okay. So I get on over to club nautico. I ran a boat from Miami Beach Marina, where the captain and we pull up to the the man's residence from the water and the planet was to fake engine trouble and roll up to his dock and asked to use his phone. So that worked like a dream. The guy came down, he actually put a towel around himself as he approached us and he said, What's going on? I said, Well, we have some engine trouble. And he he, I said, Can Can I use your phone to call for help. And as we were getting close to him, he, I reach out and I pull the, the summons out of my back pocket, and I hand it to him. And he goes, What's this? And I go, Well, you've been served a summons. And he said, Can I have your card? I said, Why didn't you come in the front gate? I go, not too easy. Yeah. That's exactly why I didn't come to the front gate. But again, the creativity and sort of persistence on getting something done. I mean, you know, if can't get it done one way, try another way. Well, you try to, you know, most of the time, and, and this has been the way I work, I try to do it, the, the easy way, just go out and talk to people straight up and, and do our job, you know, the way most people do it. But then if they're, you know, deceptive, then we got to play our games, too. And sometimes you're successful, sometimes you're not, we just do the best we can. Well, one of the things and and I think it really goes a lot to the success you've had over the years, but I've watched it firsthand is, again, I think your ability to communicate with people to get people to be candid with you, you know, in just in a non threatening, you know, kind of likable way. But But you know, I've read lots of statements you've taken on behalf of my clients and everything else. And you can see, you know, it's it's a, it's a nervous situation, you're asking somebody, Hey, can I take a recorded statement, but you've got an art about you, that puts people at ease. I mean, you created that what to just years of experience, or, you know, people are very reluctant to talk because they're abused by our system, unfortunately. And it's hard to get witnesses to come forward and talk knowing that they may have to sit down in court, and wait and never get called, or get called numerous times, and never, never get called or then get abused from another attorney. So we just try our best to be straight with them. And because once you lied to them and and mislead them, they're gone. That's it, it's over. And so we try to treat him as best as we can. And guys, like you that are attorneys that also help the situation out by speaking to them after we get hold of them, and making them feel like important. And and they have value to the case. It's, it's all good. And we we just try to do that. And, and and I try to do the best I can sometimes it doesn't work, right? Oh, yeah, no, no, you got to be one nothing to do with you. But But I think that is important. And and and it's you know, it's something I do when when you talk to people because again, if you mislead them, oh, you just give us a statement, you know, that'll be the end of it. Well, then all sudden, they get served with a subpoena and they've got to be deposed, or they've got to show up in court. Now they're not happy, okay, at least, you know, I think you got to lay it out but but explain how they can be part of helping this solution because normally, you know, the cases that you're dealing with, for my firm or other civil firms, you know, oftentimes deal with devastating injuries, okay. And, and, and the ability to change people's lives. But you got to get other people to help. You know, some people just when it's, when it happens to you, you know, and you want to help to somebody to help you, a lot of people don't feel that same way. You know, they don't want to help anybody else. We live we live in a very selfish town sometimes, right? And that's what we struggle with, you know, and I guess, you try to make people feel good by letting them know how they're helping and what they mean to this case. And, you know, that's what we prey on, you know, sometimes I'll show a picture of the person who is hurt very badly or, and and try to get some sympathy. Right. And that helps sometimes to get them to come forward and talk. Well, let's, let's talk and you talked, you know, that your office now transitioning with your son Travis a little bit? How has technology changed the game? I mean, you started you know, back in the day where, you know, you you'd be out there and and, you know, it's all knocking door to door to door and it's that hard work that does that. So how have things changed? Well, now that you brought it up That's right. Phone, Grant Miller come in. So yes, this is a, this was called the brick. And it was the first telephone I had, I got an issue to me when I worked at the public defender's office and weighs about 10 pounds. So get me in shape curls. But yes, technology has changed. I remember when I first went out, to go to a house to try to see who lived in a house back in the day. We couldn't run license plates on the scene, we didn't know who was in the house. So we'd have to go back to the office. Okay, go on our computer, that we had just gotten and learned how to get a tag and information, go back to the house. And now we knew whose car that was in front of them. Swimming, they were still there, right? Nowadays, you have a picture of them, you know, what his record is, you know, who lives with him? It's so much technology that is helpful to us, and helps us identify who were were targeting. What about other things that are there? database searches? Okay. I mean, I know, oftentimes, we'll have a significant automobile accident, there's a limited amount of coverage, you know, we sort of need the peace of mind to know, okay, this person that caused the accident, you know, most people in this town, and Florida is a pretty well, you know, well known state for debtors, you know, because they're protected. But, you know, so talk about the databases that are available, some things that you may offer to law firms to help on on the financial end of things. So looking into things? Well, there's certainly databases that help us identify assets, you know, real property boats, you know, if they've filed bankruptcy, because if if, and have liens, because if you're going after somebody, and they have all these things, you want to let your attorney that you're working for know this, because they may not want to take the case, right? And that's the harsh reality. I mean, we've got to sit down with a client. So now this person was absolutely at fault. Yes, you're absolutely significantly injured. But there's nothing there. At the end of the day, I mean, you know, we can get you a piece of paper, you know, we get a jury to bring it back to you, but nobody's going to be happy at the end of the day with your piece of paper, which we get a percentage of that piece of paper. That never gonna be collectible. That's correct. You know, at one point, I was gonna start a business, going after people going after debtors. And it's a lot harder than you think attorneys are great at suing people and winning cases. But collecting on a debt is very difficult, and it's time consuming. And at the end of the day, sometimes you just don't get there. So we do the best we can to advise them of what they have, what they can get. And then it's up to them how hard they want to push. All right, let's shift gears a little bit. You were involved in some pretty high profile national cases on on the criminal end, and I know the one that comes to mind is the murder of the young woman down in Miami few years back, how do you get involved with something like that? Well, on that particular case, I think it was like New Year's and all my investigators were hung over or from New Year's Eve, and I was the one that answered the phone that day. Okay. Boyfriend called me to hire me. And he had desperately gone out trying to find his girlfriend who was missing. And, you know, I asked him, how'd you get my name? How'd you find me? And he did through the internet. Actually, I guess on Google, he googled private investigator Miami and I came up. And so I tried to help him. But I was a little sketchy about him. I wanted to learn more about him to see if he's telling me the truth, because I didn't know him from Adam. And I met him down at the Miami police department and I said, Let's go talk to this detective. And immediately he was telling the story to me right as we're talking to the detective, because time was of the essence at that point, she was missing for a little bit. And in missing persons cases, you want to find them as soon as you can. You want to get your information out there to the media in different places. So you can hopefully have a successful result. Unfortunately, in this case, yeah, horrific, horrific result, you know, find her dead set on fire in a dumpster. I mean, that's that's even even in Miami standards. That one sort of shook everybody a little. It was terrible. It was terrible. And We didn't get a whole lot of cooperation from the police department that was handling it, because in my opinion, they just weren't well trained in their home aside investigation, and they let a lot of things slip by. I was very upset about that. And we did our best to help the family, but there needed to be a stronger presence. And I know it wasn't the most important thing on their on their list. But there could have been a lot more. Right. So how do you deal with that relationship? Okay, because obviously, a lot of times you're involved, whether it be a civil issue, or a criminal issue, where you've got the police actively involved? How do you kind of try to blend that relationship, because I would assume that it many times the police officers are like, okay, you're your private investigator go away, let the big boys do their job, you know, but as you point out, and again, not a criticism of the police, a lot of times, they're not really doing all they can you know, the police are protected by open cases. So if it's an open homicide, they do not have to share anything with us. And as a result, that can work out good for them or bad for them. In this particular case, I thought it was bad for them, because I think if they had worked with us, and other other people, private organizations, they could have solved this case. But unfortunately, you try your best to get their confidence because my, my feeling was I didn't want to go out and hurt the police. I love the police, right? These are great. They're they're what we need, who wants to defend police, we need more police, right. But you want to work together and find a common ground where you both can assist each other. And a lot of times, private investigators. I know I've worked with Miami Dade homicide and different organizations, and they've been great in certain cases. And we've been able to help them and they've been able to help us. So it all depends on the case who's involved. And the trustworthiness, I've had always had a lot of former detectives working for me and their relationship with the police, bridges the gap and helps things move forward. And hey, the bottom line, we want to we want to help them get the case soft. That's that's what it's all about. Yeah, and we get the same thing. I mean, a lot of times, I've got cases where the state attorneys involved in some component of I've got the civil end of it, they've got the criminal. And it really is it's kind of hit or miss sometimes because we very actively reach out because a lot of times I have information I've brought guy like you on, we've obtained this information that I want to give them to help on the criminal end. So there's always an odd sometimes pushback, like you know, they're doing and I'm like, No, we're, we're, we're fighting for the same goal here. You know, and if I've got some stuff can help you and I get, you know, all I'm asking as you share with me what you can and I understand there's restrictions on it. But but so a lot of times that's been very successful, but sometimes Yeah, there's just big pushback. They don't want to deal with the civil lawyer and let them handle their stuff. Well, the problem is, if you get a lazy guy, that lazy detective that hasn't done his work, and he doesn't have to share his file, that's true. He can continue to be lazy and do nothing, and nothing happens. So there, there seems to need to be a watchdog, sometimes watching out for these guys, and you hope the internal departments handle their department well. But I've seen it where it's it's been where it's been a problem and in some departments. Alright, we've talked about getting you involved early in cases and how that's integral because now you sort of become part of that litigation team to look at overall strategy to look at. And, you know, there's been times you shared with me, Hey, this could be a potential defendant, you know, maybe something we weren't looking at, you know, somebody else owns this as well. But it runs the gamut all the way through. So because you're even involved, oftentimes, once it goes to jury, okay, and in looking at potential jury issues and everything else, we'll talk a little bit about that. Well, we have worked on jury cases before sometimes we background that jurors when they go to trial, so attorneys like to get the edge up on the competition or whoever they're going against. And one of the things they do is they hire us to do background checks on everybody in the jury pool to see if they're telling the truth or if there's something that they don't want that juror if we find that somebody In the background check, so they can get rid of that germ before they put them on their panel. There's also jury misconduct investigations. And so there's there's a number of ways and things we do backgrounding those people and developing information that certainly assists the attorneys in their job. It's, it's a, it's a tremendous help. And again, you know, smaller firm like Mark and I, to be able to add an asset like that to the team, you know, again, big firms may have full time jury consultants, and all of that, but you've got to reach out to people and build your team, you know, and we do it through people like you like private investigators. We have nurses, we have doctors that we work with, and everything else hand in hand. So so you're kind of winding down the career, what's been the most enjoyable part of being a private detective or private investigator? Well, you know, my father wanted me to get an us Insurance Agency. And to me, that was so boring. It was terrible. The great thing about private investigation is you. Every day you wake up, you get a new case, it's something different, it's exciting. And then that's what I think drives me is that if you know, something different every day, and I've enjoyed the career, I've worked with some great people, yourself. Many attorneys, and and private people that have just been I've had nothing but good experiences, very few bad experiences in my life, I guess the bad experiences would would be the danger of the job or going into neighborhoods that are you're dealing with just a lot of violent crime, and you're investigating violent crime and you hear bullets flying, you're out there at night. you're photographing scenes, and you're seeing gangs of people that are looking to see what you're doing. So it makes your job. That's the uneasiness of the job. But other than that, it's been a very rewarding career. You know, I didn't, I didn't finish college. And a lot of people think everybody should send their kid to college. Well, this is a career where you don't need to go to college. You can educate yourself, you can go through courses, and get to wear this to be a good private investigator by just following your path. And I was fortunate that had people helping me teaching me on the job, and it worked out well. And I know it wasn't all that hard because I do believe I think you and your wife Jamie went undercover on a cruise to somewhere. I've heard some of these gigs that weren't too bad. So you know, if you get to recruit your wife Jamie to go into an undercover role, that can't be that bad. Well, she's a talker. She can talk her way out anything and and she was an asset to me so it was fun having her around when I had her around. As long as she wasn't in my ear all day long. Sorry, James. Don't watch unsolicited testimony from a watcher so let's dive It has been a pleasure it's been great night and and I know we're not done working with you yet. You may be trying to get out of town but but you know, I got to build up things with Travis and get things going there because you're a critical part to our practice and and I appreciate all you've done for the legal end of things. And as a friend I mean, it just goes goes without saying you've been a tremendous friend and I look forward to many many more years together. Well, thank you Dave. I I'm not dead yet. I still want to work a little bit here and there as time goes on. And so I'll be around and look forward to still work with you and Mark great attorneys and and you guys are true professionals. Appreciate it. So look, we don't get a lawyer to take off the kill list. But here's a private investigator in case you want to look into a lawyer that you want to get killed. He can give you the background on him and everything else but but appreciate everybody watching this one. We'll be back next week with with some more interesting legal things. And Dave, really appreciate your time. Thank you, man.

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers. I am extraordinarily excited this morning with the guests that I have on and, you know, we open the show with Let's kill all the lawyers because it's a 15 century phrase from Shakespeare, that often gets misquoted. But the problem is a lot of people still today quoted and think that's not a bad idea. You know, we could wipe these guys out. But I can tell you this, this is a lawyer, that I guarantee is not on anybody's kill list. My only concern this morning with my guest is that I've only got about 30 minutes and if I read all of the accolades about this man, my friend, it may take more than 30 minutes. My guest this morning, and I'm gonna tell you a little bit about him and let's bring him in is is Stan Blake, who was a circuit court judge here in Miami for 22 years, was in private practice in Miami was a public defender in Miami. But I have to touch on something Stan before we start because I do have to give you some props. Go ahead. He honors his man when he served for 22 years. Judge William hold Hudler Lifetime Achievement Award by the Dade County Bar outstanding jurists award American academy of matrimonial lawyers, the Florida Supreme Court Chief Justice award for judicial excellence. The Florida conference of circuit judges chair award, Justice Gerald Cogan, judicial distinction award judge Allen Schwartz, judicial Excellence Award, Judge Steve Levine award for fairness, integrity, and professionalism. The list goes on and on and on, including, which I don't think I've ever seen. He had a rating of 99% of exceptional or qualified by the Florida Bar or by the Dade County Bar in a rating. I mean, in Stan, I can tell you, I've never had a great of a 99% on the three years together you did. Well, that's true. Stan, how are you? I'm doing great, David, how you doing? I am wonderful. I'm not as wonderful as you because I'm here in beautiful South Florida, but it's summertime. And it's sticky and it's hot. And I know you're in beach mountain North Carolina, do a little bit of work, but getting a lot of golf. Yeah, I mean, that's nice. Zoom has been a terrific thing. I mean, you know, with my mediation practice, after I left the bench, you only wouldn't be in person. But now with zoom. We have people I had someone the other day who was in Madrid and someone was in and Argentina on the same mediation, so no one's falling around. And it's great. Now you've got international we're gonna get to mediation because I want to talk about it. But let's go back a little bit with you. What drew you into the practice of law and I know you started at the public defender's office, but what was the appeal? And how'd you wind up getting into law? Well, it's funny, I started off with excuse because I went from Miami last going on McCain fan to but I went to the University of Florida. I started off in pre-dentistry. And after my third chemistry course, I said this is not going to work. So actually, I went through the College of Journalism major and advertising minor in political science and took a lot of law related courses. And while I had offers to go to New York, in the advertising industry, I didn't want the insecurity of that profession where you're on top of the world, you lose some big account, you're taking your portfolio and you're you're looking for a new job. So I said, You know, I loved everything with law. I went to law school and loved it from the beginning. And then when I took a course as a law student to work with the public defender's office, it's just a such a rush you being a trial attorney, you know what it is? Sure. And then when you can see how you can help people and the difference you can really make in the world and people's lives then gave me an opportunity to do something that most professions don't realize it and that's fantastic. But I got to diverge a little bit because there was also a family business that I I want to know how you couldn't have gotten into that because it was my favorite stomping ground forever. But I know your family had ties to tobacco road. Right. My father wrote it, it was called the Chantoclair at the time. He owned it from 1950 a year after it came down from Detroit sold in 1975. Now it was a blue-collar neighborhood, however, was the only five o'clock liquor license in Miami. So when they built the four bachelors if you want to enter three and have the Pressman from the Miami Herald, who'd walked across the river to get a shot of beer, it had people with tuxedos and boy gallons are looking for a martini So it's really the place now when he saw that I was probably making some public defender 15 to 16,000 year, they sold it from what I understand five years ago, like $11 million. If I had known it was gonna be valuable. I probably wouldn't be here right now with you, David, but I haven't any regrets. Well, I don't know, you'd still be here because I would have known you because I'd have been hanging out a tobacco road. True. It's, it's funny because they've actually opened a place right down the street to tobacco road by Cush. And my son was telling me Actually, they've done a nice job of sort of honoring the history of what tobacco road was like, and trying to keep it as that type of establishment. So yeah, that's what I heard. I haven't had a chance to be there is the old riverway store right in the corner. Yes. Yep. right on the corner. So. So you work as a public defender. For five or six years, you go into private practice, and I'm assuming your private practice was criminal defense work, mostly was I mean, you know, I had other things from time to time, but actually, I bought a person who had been a judge who was appointed as a judge Maui tandridge, you may have remembered from I bought his practice along with Jeffers, they could be my teacher gables high. And, and he was a civil practice. So I tried some civil cases. Right off the bat. And then I said, Listen, my criminal practice took off. Jeff, you do the civil stuff on to the criminal, but I would get into both arenas. Excellent, excellent. we transitioned from private practice to the bench where you have a long 22-year stint right now, how is it? Did you run for election? Were you appointed? How'd you wind up getting on the bench? You know, when you sit there in court, and David being active trial attorneys sit there you watch. As you're waiting for your case to be caught, you watch some judges, some who treat people with respect and some of the things that were anointed and come down from Mount Sinai. So I knew one day I wanted to do it. But then we had something in the early 90s called a courtroom in Miami where there were some judges who are taking bribes and giving Volans and granting motions for money. And when that broke, I haven't gone to college in the 60s, we were all idealists. So I sat down with my wife and kids. I said, You know, I think when I move up my timetable, I know I want to go on the bench one day, I had one, one child who was getting ready to start college to have I said, the good news about news, good news. If I get on the bench, we'll have more efficient vacation time, bad news, we can never afford to go anywhere. Again. I did not know how prophetic that was going to be or how pathetic the salary was in practice, but I back then if you were up for an employment, and you were appointed, you had to run the next time. I was up for an appointment, I knew is between myself and another person was already a county court judge. And so I there was a new secret. So I follow for that only in May before was not like they do now for two or three years. And I got a call from the governor's general counsel that the other person got the appointment, I get the next one they know as roiling if I didn't get I get appointed? Well, fortunately, I won with like 69% of the vote, and then never had opposition after that. And I know that because it was a sort of an untethered run, because who in their right mind would run against you? Because you were truly and we read the accolades. But But you were respected for every aspect of it. I mean, from the judges you worked with, to the lawyers that were before you to haven't even read stories of, you know, people you were sentencing, that were still respectful and grateful to you for being fair and impartial even though they were going to jail. Yeah, that probably. I think pry was as good as it gets. I mean, one of the quick stories like that there's a gentleman who was in his early 40s, he had been convicted of, I'll remember what there was minimum mandatories. And I, the guidelines call me the seven center, like, I think, 2530 years, whatever it was, and it was, you know, something I had to do. So he said at the end, he says, Well, well, thank you judge. I So, Mr. Sun, so I just sent you what I have to do. And with your age, you're probably not going to get out of jail until you're close to 80 years of age. He says, No, no, thank you for that. He says, you know, from my record, I've been around a lot. And he says in trawl every day, when I came in from the court from jail, you asked how my nine was, you treated me the same as you treated the lawyers, the jurors, the first time I've ever been respected in the courtroom. So I'm thanking you for respecting me. I hope I get you out. Reverse on the pill. We all laughed. And he didn't get my ass reversed on appeal. But, you know, that's, you know, that's how we should live as people. I mean, it really is a really hard. I didn't have to go to law school to be respectful and be nice. Right. Right. So let's talk a little bit about because I think one of the things that people don't understand, and I and I know it, because and, Stan, you've taught us for a long time as I have, but I know from students because they don't quite understand when you hear about a circuit court judge, and people automatically think, Okay, well, a civil judge or criminal judge. But there's several divisions that circuit court judges can sit in. And I know you've I know, you've been around to pretty much all of them at some point. How is that determined where judges get assigned, whether they're in family law, whether they're in criminal or whether they're in civil? Well, when you're first get elected or appointed to the bench, it depends where there's an opening. And usually, especially it used to be more in the past, but still, the civil is considered a better division to sit in or perhaps probate. So criminal was a juvenile were often the bottom feeders. For me going to criminal in the beginning was so comfortable, because I felt like I've been there my whole life, which I had been from the practice of law. And, and then after that, it depends on seniority. So every three years is rotation. And you can put in for a different seat. Now, if you've been in a certain division, and someone has never been there, they might be able to balance you depending on your seniority. So there's good news. The bad news, good news is you have judges who you may not want to have, and they get rotated. But the bad news is, sometimes you have a judge who really understands your case, or is very good on a particular area of law. And a newbie comes in who's never sat there and never experienced that. You're trying to educate them. But I think for the most part it makes for more well rounded. I know for me as a judge, and but there's pros and cons. That's how it works. Well, and I can tell you, that news circulates like wildfire among trial lawyers, when First off, there's all the rumors, who's rotating in and out. And then when it officially happens. It goes from every lawyer, because like you're saying some of it. Oh, great. We got rid of that. Judge. Maybe I got a shot now to Oh, no, I'm in trouble now. Because we couldn't finish it in front of that judge. Yeah. And if it's if the judges don't like you know, the rotations coming up, you find excuses for continuances other emotions that drag the case on a little longer. I know you've got a sort of soft spot in your heart for for criminal work. But in those rotations, did you have a preference of where you preferred presiding, whether that was, you know, in civil or criminal or, or even family, although I gotta imagine, family's got to be rough. You know, it's funny, I am, I love the one that made criminals, the most exciting. I mean, you know, the daily the morning counter could be a two drink minimum that you would say was amazing. And, you know, some of my old cases that run day line, they still play a two or three in the morning. And people say, Oh, I saw you on TV. Well, I had a moustache and hair is darker and probably more of it. But criminal was just exciting. But family, you know, I've been married, divorced with three kids. So I got I got the emotions, I understand the importance of parents, co parenting, and with the kids are going through. So you really felt like you did something in that regard. And of course, in family court, there's no jury, so you make all the decisions. Civil Court, I love because of the diversity of the issues you would have. And any morning on emotion County, you go from a foreclosure to a contract dispute to a personal injury to medical malpractice, to whatever and actually, that I it was a challenge for all the areas you had to really be knowledgeable on or make yourself eligible. And I love the challenge of being prepared. I loved when I would read over the 30 motions for the five minute motion calendar. Some colleagues might say, well, half of them don't show up. I said, Yeah, but for the ones who do I want to write to do their case in five minutes. Or it's funny when I first got to the civil bench. I mean, well, I knew the lawyers, they hadn't been in front of me and family or criminal. And they would have what's called special sets where there's lots of issues, you set aside a two or three-hour block and they give you big fat binders. And I'd make a ruling for the first six months even if I ruled against them personally. So thank you. Again, what do you think they are against you? Thank you prepare. Thank you for having read one it gave you so they were all had their special things. Um, the toughest part of family is sometimes the emotional part where you're trying to get through the motions to get to the answer last. And the toughest part of civil is when the attorneys weren't prepared. Right? Yeah, it cuts both ways the system works much better. When lawyers are prepared, judges are prepared. And it really does make a big difference when you come in. And you know, they're the judges not looking at the motion for the first time that morning, having just woken up and you know, had gone through it. So you get some more pointed questions to say, Okay, I kind of get this, let's talk about this aspect of it, though. Which really, really does make it more enjoyable for the lawyers, even if you do get rolled again. At least, you know, your point has been heard, they consider that, you know, listen, there's 50% winners or losers every day and what you're rolling, but you did the best you can with what you got. So we have a mutual friend, and I was corresponding back and forth, because I told him you were coming on. And I, I was asked to ask you about a court reporter who took down the phrase objection, irrelevant. But took it down, meaning something else? Yes. Well, you know, when I was the administrative judge of Criminal Division, they want to put electronic court reporting in to save money and whatever well, being around the system forever. I like to have a court reporter there typing. If you have a sidebar, you're kind of just joking. And they know when the fingers up or things like that. Well, there was a transcript I saw that had been and when these electronic things when they were trying them, then they would send them to wherever they have transcribed. I don't know if it's United States or Pakistan or wherever. But one of the transcripts I read, what had been said was objection, irrelevant. It was transcribe erection an elephant. It was that class. So that was one of the things which I think to help keep the most of the court reporters around and keep the electronics out of the courtroom, especially with jury selection, you know, the court reporter can see on the panel who's talking the electronic is very, very difficult. Yeah. Which, which, and and and I imagine, you know, as we've worked through the pandemic, court reporters have had issues because I know lawyers have of saying, well, they don't want to witness to have a mask on because, again, you have to be able to read the face, you have to be able to look at them, a jury has got to be able to assess them. So you start doing these things behind mass. Pretty good argument to say that it's not really being fair at that point, I think, I think it's a very fine argument mean, reading and body language and, you know, is important see how now what you hear but how it said and see what they're doing is important. So I think at least the courtrooms system is trying to open up, of course, our courthouse to Miami is for the civil courthouse is disgraceful. I mean, it's built in 1925. I guess we're building a new one now, I guess will be that another two to three years. But so so some of the newer courthouses like in Palm Beach or or Broward, they can have more courtrooms. That will be where people will feel safe to go in there with the jurist, Miami Dade. Not as much. But you know, that's one of the reasons we private mediating settlements, because people know it's going to be a long time until the system's up and running again. Yeah, we've we've talked about it. And I look, I give a lot of credit to the Dade County judiciary, because I think they've done a really good job of staying on top of this, being able to move cases the best they can, under the circumstances, through the pandemic, and really adhering to guidelines to get it reopened. So I mean, I just think the judges have done a really, really nice job. And you're right, I think lawyers now look at and say, we're a couple years out, I mean, they're trying to push that backlog, but it's a long way getting down. And I've been pleasantly surprised that through the pandemic we've had as plaintiff's lawyers, my fear was, hey, they're not going to pay you anything, because they'll just sit on it. And they'll sit on their money for a couple years, because there's no hammer out there. There's no jury system out there. But we've had a lot of success with mediation, and now you've made the transition from a guy that kind of makes the rulings and controls everything to the mediator who now is really a facilitator. I mean, you you influence decisions, certainly but talk about that and and how you've been able to do and I can say it firsthand, because I've had the pleasure mediating cases with you how you've been so successful in transitioning into mediation. Well, you know, however, listen, I was fortunate Live to 102 was sharpened till the end. So somehow I got her wiring, I got my father's gift for gab, but my mother's wiring for other things. And you know, when I went from being an advocate as a lawyer, and it's funny I was elected September of 1994 take the big January of 95. But I had my own cases workouts, I'd be sitting in court watching the judge make rulings thinking, what would I do, but I realize I'm no longer the applicant. I'm now at the time the impartial judge, but I have to make the rulings. Then I realized as a mediator, I don't rule anymore. Now, one of the reasons maybe I'm so busy is because some of former judges still think they're making the rulings and they come in, they say this torture then but it's a process of mediation. And might be like sausage, if you knew I was made, you don't want to eat it, right. But we might reach a settlement and went through a crazy thing, but it works out. But I think that the way I made their transition is I realized I now have a different position in the system. But I can still bring. I've been a lawyer and I'll be 48 years this year. I know I started like 12 years old when I was Doogie Howser has any viewers can see Yeah, I was doing the math between the time on the bench, you must be 107. But I'm not I'm not gonna call you out on 1612. When I went to law school, I told you that, okay. So in any event, but I realized the difference that there would be as a mediator, but I, I give, you know, there are certain rules of mediation, you don't come in and tell them what to do. It's up to that person, then it's not up to the attorneys, the attorneys, you know, give the advice. But I will give they will ask, sometimes the transfer, ask what I've seen on the bench, or how's these cases played out in front of the jury, and I email you, you can do certain things. And I'm not just a potted plant, using lumber, here's the number to hire a former judge or anyone to do that a non lawyer can be a mediator. But you know, I think they're hiring me. Because I've seen things and they know that I like to connect with people. And even on zoom, I can still do that pretty well. And, you know, so whether it be an adjuster in a PII case, and, or the plaintiff, I seem to have a good amount of success in getting things settled. But I'm often one, I might say, to myself, I know how this is going to turn out, but I'm not there. And sometimes you plant the seeds. And it might be a month later that the attorneys and the clients finally reached a settlement that you talked about. Well, and I've watched you work that and it really is an art form. Because you're not telling them what to do. But ultimately, you're making them think that they decided what to do, but it was kind of what you told them to do. So it helps. So let's talk about just for the general public, because we throw out mediation, okay, but But what is the process of mediation? What claims get mediated? I mean, just kind of explain that whole thing. Mediation is the process of trying to have two sides come to a mutual agreement. And when I tell them when one side thinks we're paying too much money, and one side thinks they're not getting enough, we have a good settlement. Because what you have the certainty one thing we know, especially after COVID, things are coming up, we don't have a lot of certainty going on. Right now. It's funny what you said about you, you wondered if as a plaintiff's attorney, if you'd be able to have insurance companies for company money. What I found when COVID hidden, we started doing zoom. In the very beginning, I thought the insurance companies were playing a very close to the vest, thinking they could wait out everything. And then I think they realized that the backlog of cases and for the defense firms representing them, was going to be untenable, right. So you have to start loosening the purse strings. And then I have found, for the most part, probably the same flow of money. Now as in the past, right. Now, zoom has become the norm. So the old norm has kind of come up in the beginning, I agree with you. And there was a big concern about that. But mediation is a practice of trying to get people to do and the way it works out, is I start with my little spiel when it is and I like to personally go around the room online, and find out where everyone's from and a little bit about so it makes it less adversarial. And then the attorneys will give an opening statement for the plaintiff. And then for the defense. We have the ability on zoom, to have what's called a screen share where you can put exhibits up there and do a PowerPoint. And then I'm able to with the click of a mouse, put people in what's called breakout rooms. We used to call them a caucus. We will meet in the lawyers office and I'll be in a conference room, and then we break into separate rooms and the lawyers office and I would go room the room. Now I'm able to create breakout rooms where I put the attorneys in the party for the plaintiff, one side of the fence and the attorneys there and another room. And I can with the click of the mouse go from room to room. And what we talked about is confidential they own here. And it's worked out pretty well. It's funny, I used to say, in some offices where I had to go to a different floor for a separate room or cross a big office I, on my phone, you have how many steps you're doing in a day? Wow, like 3000 steps, or whatever. Now the only thing I get us carpal tunnel. So let's say you could get your steps in on the golf course, though. You've got my stroke. That's true. That's true. But so what type of claims? Do you mediate? I mean, does it go beyond just civil disputes? Oh, yeah. I mean, I pretty much committee everything Actually, it's funny I, they wanted me on a pilot program about four or five months ago mediate criminal cases. So the state attorney in the public defender agreed to four cases that I could meet me there were relatively serious cases, the cases they thought could be resolved. And then I would go back and forth and kind of learn from my background in criminal, where would the proper sentence that we get the safe say, Yes, we come a lot of guidelines. And the, the defense attorney would say, Yes, my client can accept that. But for the most part, I mean, I do civil, and family and probate, I mean, so several can be anything from, for instance, later this morning, we still are mediating insurance claims from Hurricane Irma, which was September 10 2017, where someone says they have damaged their house insurance company says the site covered, too to medical malpractice, where some doctors alleged to have created some problem to personal injury, which is very common auto accidents, slip and falls things. NHTSA had one with where someone was in an elevator and panel and not just a little plastic thing, a heavy panel fell on their head. And then the promises created from that on, you have a breach of contract cases, people have a business relationship, and then someone does something different or a non compete that's been violated. So the whole gamut of everything. And then I do family ones. Also I do anymore civil, because there's so many more civil cases. But family ones can be anything from the beginning. You know, as a former judge, you kind of figure out how we can settle everything, from transport to time sharing, to dividing up property to whatever, another time since Come on, post this solution. They've been divorced. I haven't when they've been divorced for 21 years. And now the kids are growing, thank God, but they're still fighting over a certain property, then and, you know, enough, folks. I mean, this isn't a sport, like having annuity for your attorneys. Yeah, that's true. That's true. So does a case have to be in litigation to be mediated? No, no, I do a fair amount of what's called pre suit mediations, which means there's, there's gonna be a case that could come down the pike, someone could be filing. But before the time, the effort, the energy, and the money especially is spent, they want to see if it can be resolved. And I do a fair amount of those. And it may be in a restaurant with a slip and fall in maybe I've done some which were serious allegations of some negligence on the part of a doctor, even there's certain notifications, you have to give him like that. But we've had a fair amount of success with that. Where when you get down to it, how expensive it can be that people realize maybe it's smart to settle now. Excellent. Well, listen, I've had the pleasure of mediating cases with you. I'm sure there'll be many more to come. I could spend a lot of time talking with you, Stan, because one you've got fascinating background, and you're just, I think a tremendous human being as well. Well, thank you. The check will be sent to you very soon. Exactly. That's the way that you wrote it up right. Now, that wouldn't be right. I wouldn't want to say that. Yeah, exactly. Well, clearly, clearly a lawyer we can take off anybody's kill us to stand like and if you need any mediation services, Stanford Blake mediation, okay. You can look him up. He does do a tremendous job and I and I'm going to tell you stand. In all honesty. A lot of ex judges that have become mediators. I don't think you've become very good mediators because they still think they're wearing the ropes and I'll leave names out but, but it really has been a tough transition. I think you've done a great job. Well, thank you. I'll tell you a funny story about There used to be a judge who was across the hall from me in one of the courthouses and he would come in in the morning and tell me how or the afternoon a higher rule to someone or out loud treated someone. And I would say you're such a, whatever, right in the blanks. So now he's after a meeting, he's been doing it for a while. He says, I have maybe one mediation maybe two a month, and you're booked up every day for three or four months. I still remember what I used to tell you, you were leaving, I said, but if you treat people like that, now you say to him, I want you to pay me four or $500 an hour. Oh, yeah, you treated me like that. So I do think all those former colleagues for that. And it was funny when I went out people say, Well, I have to see that we don't I was on the bench, but we have to see how he is a mediator. Unfortunately, I've kind of fooled them and figured it out. So David, I think you this show is terrific. And I love you know, let's kill all the lawyers and which was really meant the opposite. If you like get rid of society, that's what you do. But I love the name of your show. And where's the showing anyway? Or something like that? I will send you a link so that you have it and you can you know, you can show your friends both of them? No, we're not. The other one is no longer. Sorry. Sorry. Short, but I'll send you a link and we've got on Apple and Spotify and community newspapers is run it and so we're getting it out there. And but anybody that needs mediation services Stanford like mediation is there been a pleasure, Stan? David, love seeing you and you know, we've taught together and we've done things together and I always loved watching you. You're obviously much much much younger than I am by watching you on the football field and, and cheering for you. I didn't know we'd be friends ultimately. Well, it's nice. It's nice to know and and I look forward to seeing you sometime soon. Go mediate. Go enjoy some golf in your 58 degree weather up there. I'm gonna go outside and sweat for a while. Yeah, you might want where if you're outside a lighter shirt. Okay. Thank you so much, Bob. All right. Thanks for having me. Thank you. And that that wraps another one. We can take somebody off the kill list and we'll talk to you soon.

Welcome to the first episode of The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers. And it's an often misquoted Shakespeare quote, but it's funny, you know, lawyers, it's fun that to try to say, no, it's actually a positive thing about lawyers. Well, it wasn't if you look at it when Shakespeare wrote it in 1598, he was taking shots at lawyers. And, and that's something that has gone on since. So that's one of the reasons I figured I'd start this broadcast. I'm David Heffernan. I've been practicing personal injury law here in South Florida for close to 30 years. I'm also an adjunct faculty over at the University of Miami, and I practice with a good friend of mine and, and my partner from law school, under the firm of Kaire & Heffernan. And the goal behind putting this whole broadcast together was to bring other lawyers in. So figure out maybe we shouldn't kill all of them. But maybe just a few, because there are some out there still, most of them, but there's a few that haven't and to bring other lawyers in talk about different aspects of law, types of law, all across the board, various types, maybe some trending topics in law to get into what's going on, and maybe educate the people that listen about when they might need a lawyer when they want some things they might be able to do on their own. And my first guest is was an easy choice. He's a good friend. He's a great lawyer. I've had cases against him. I've had cases with him. I've consulted on cases with him. And he's also one of the few lawyers that I actually see eye to eye with, and that's not philosophic or anything else. It's just because he's about six, five. So my good friend Jim Nosich, founding partner of the law firm knows that Jim Ganz Jim, how are you? Great, Dave. Good morning. Good morning. Everything's fantastic. All right. So you and I have a lot of similarities, because I know you've also been practicing in South Florida for just about 30 years. But you're not a South Florida guy. So tell me how a kid from Chicago winds up at the University of Miami. Very easy. 1978 and 79 were the major blizzards in Chicago. So I came to the University of Miami. suntan you that time, I picked up two majors, one in geology and one in marine science. And eventually, that developed into going to law school and studying more in terms of the medicine because I was pretty good at science and ended up in medical malpractice for the last 30 years. So we got to talk about that because we do share some things. So you took geology, I took a course called rocks for jocks, I think it was similar, very similar. But I also it's funny because I started out I wanted to go into Marine Science and I got recruited and went there to play football, obviously. And one of the things I rapidly learned that studying marine science, and trying to practice and play football under Coach elenberger was a little difficult to do. So I was about one semester into Marine Science when I decided to switch to communications. While it was way more difficult than I thought it would ever be. Everybody likes marine biology think you're going to be doing a lot of stuff in the ocean. But there's a lot of math and science behind it. And a lot of work behind it and some good field camps and steel studies, but mostly a lot of hard work, which eventually I had to do a field camp I picked in terms of geology and went to the mountains, the Blue Ridge Mountains. And they told me how to climb this giant mountain to go click on a rock with a hammer and I go near this isn't for me. So I pulled out of that and ended up at Liberty Mutual Insurance Company in their safety consultant. department and went to law school at night at the University of Miami and then developed into personal injury, mostly medical malpractice. So you climb mountains, you went into the ocean, and that drove you into the practice of law and drove into the practice of law does doesn't sound that miserable. But it apparently was that miserable might be it might be if it got into the practice of law. 100% agree 100% agree. All right. Well, let's talk about your practice. Because Because you did really and you have over over the last 30 years, carved out a niche of being somebody who really understands the nuances and the technicalities, medical malpractice is a is a whole different animal in and of itself. So what was the appeal there and kind of how did that how did that whole practice develop? Sure. And as you know, because you're in that small little clinic of medical Malpractice Lawyers, it's a highly specialized area. There's a small group of highly specialized lawyers doing it. I think what happened was I started with the firm we started doing medical malpractice was on the defense side. And my partner and I or my boss at the time broke off and was almost 27 years ago. And we've had our own law firm, since that time doing representing doctors and hospitals. My current partner Mark ganz joined us about 20 years ago, and the older partner retired and Mark, and I kept the thing going. But about two years ago, we decided to move over to representing the patients, we think we're a benefit to the patient, since we know everything on the defense side. And we try to take only those cases that have a lot, a lot of marriages, you know, they're very tough to prosecute. And in case selection, you want to make sure you have a client that has been wrongly injured and has significant damages, and try to resolve those cases for them. So we throw the the phrase back and forth Medical Malpractice and everything else, but but put it in layman's terms, what is what does it mean? You know, because we get calls a lot of times, and and I always try to distinguish two people because there's bad medicine. And that happens. And sometimes sometimes people are just angry. It's a lack of communication or other things. But what rises to the level of of a medical malpractice case? Well, first, I think it's interesting, because I think a lot of lack of communication is what causes a lot of the problems with patients and their frustration. On the defense side, I've been involved in probably representing 1000s 1000s of doctors have been in 1000 conferences on it, and they, everybody tries to preach communication. And there's examples where, you know, patients would understand better that bad things can happen without anybody doing anything wrong if there was better communication. But there's a lot of bad communication. So the way I like to explain it is sort of like an auto accident, or running a stop sign. So if a doctor runs a stop sign in the middle of the night and doesn't hit anybody in the intersection, there's no damage to anything. There's no harm, there's no causation. And therefore there's no case if you run a stop sign, and you hit a car, and you cause damages, and it's your fault. And there's a medical malpractice case. And what we need to do is have the case looked at very thoroughly by medical experts to determine if the doctor acted inappropriately, and that action caused the damage and that damage is related to that inappropriate action. So it's kind of complicated, but maybe not so complicated, but it's hard to get all three elements in a medical malpractice case. And I often explain that to clients is that difference, because because there's a whole legal scheme in medical malpractice cases, if you come to my office, and you've been in a car accident, I can find a lawsuit today, you know, but when it happens there, you've got to obtain records, you've got to get an expert affidavit, all Well, before you ever can even be in a position to file a lawsuit. Sure. I read probably minimum and my partner separately about 1000 pages of medical records a week, probably up to 5000 pages of medical records a week, going through each page, looking for the issues, before even sending it out to a medical expert. So that takes a lot of experience, to know what to look for, before wasting anybody's time or looking for the appropriate expert to review the case. And as we all know, the term expert probably over the last 2025 years is kind of, to me at least wishy washy. I mean, only 40 years ago, doctors were recommending that women smoke camels versus cool. And they were called a medical expert. So you have to find the right expert, the expert that's smart and it's not going to tell you what you want to hear because the relationship with the client if you take the case, you're talking 234 years, and like I always say sometimes to my clients I say you know, you might I might be one of your kids in the futures godfather because you're going to know me so much. We're going to talk so much we're going to have a lot of communication and we're going to build a good relationship. Alright, let's let's shift a little bit because we've we've been through a year like no other and are continuing through that year. And I will point out since we are close together in studios, we have both been vaccinated double down so it's, it's it's all good as we're heading in that direction. But But let's talk about it because obviously every business everywhere has been impacted in one way or the other as a result of the pandemic. Yeah. The legal Field clearly impacted courthouses shut down, they're gradually starting to reopen. I know you were part of a, I guess a task force that was put together here in Miami Dade County. Tell me a little bit about that. Let's talk about how the courts have tried to adjust and where we're going with this. Sure. I was involved with the task force, dealing with Dade County, big county courthouse and judicial system on the criminal and civil side. A good friend of mine, Stuart robertson is a well known lawyer in Miami was selected mate of mine, former classmate of yours that's right was selected because of his perseverance, and his ability to manage up selected by the Chief Judge to put this taskforce together, and it contained medical experts, specialists from the University of Miami on infectious disease and epidemiology. The high end administrative trial judges, also government officials and lawyers and constitutional lawyers, civil wars, criminal defense lawyers a good solid scope to study what was happening, we I think we put that into place back in probably June of last year to try to get something going because the judicial system stopped. And that's very tragic. It's very tragic. To have it stop and pause even. Absolutely. And and, and I will tell you, I give I give a lot of credit, mean to people I use certain task force, but but our judiciary, because, again, as with everything, really was able to pivot pretty quickly, while the courthouses were closed, you know, all of these things that weren't in our, in our vocabulary before, you know, zoom meetings and everything else. But they've done a great job of continuing best that they can to move cases with zoom hearings. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think a lot has to be given to them. Credit wise, yeah. For what they've done. But obviously, you got to have courtrooms open for things like jury trial. Yeah. And you got to have people there. So they've started gradually. So what's the process? Now, I know jury trials are back. I haven't been in one yet. But but they're, they're back. My wife's actually got jury duty next week. So be interesting. The so judge Bailey and judge Soto, the two top administrative judges in Dade County, were probably got their team of a lot of judges in Dade County, working on zoom with hearings, they were doing the most of any county in the United States. So they got on board quickly. A lot of you know, a lot of counties were around the United States moral faction are not set up electronic electronically or didn't have the motivation. Maybe they thought the COVID would pass. But we're on board right away. And the hearings held but no jury trials and criminal, which we try to handle first, even though the civil trials are important, but people are in jail waiting for their trial dates. So we try to get more constitutional rights be able to get Yeah, in front of a jury with with, on the other hand, and if you someone like me represent a client who is dying of cancer that was improperly diagnosed, that if diagnosed earlier, they wouldn't be in this predicament. And you want to give them a trial day and you want them to see justice before they pass and have their family enjoy seeing their their loved one have justice before they pass. And so now we're just starting jury trials. We tried everything in the book, we tried virtual with potential jurors on video, or on zoom. And then he tried everything off online. And then we started to bring some people in and and I think what's going to happen is the only way to get it back really is once we get through this pandemic and get everybody back as closest to normal because you're everybody's really got to be there. Jury selection. The lawyers want to see the jurors, jurors want to see the lawyers and the parties were starting in that direction on their various jury trials with very few. So if your wife got the jury selection, notice I'm just now starting to go out. But again, it's limited is only going to be a couple court courtrooms and the whole courthouse and there's about a backlog of several 1000 cases waiting for a jury trial plus all the new cases. So that's the predicament we're in right now. So if you took out the crystal ball, and assuming we're and it's a big assumption that we continue the course we're on the That we're we're sort of over the hump on this. And like I said, that's a big assumption because assumption because i don't i don't know that we're out of the woods by any stretch, but but assume we can get back to whatever normal is. I mean, how long do you think that backlog in in the courts is going to affect trial lawyers and clients and everything else? I say this is just my opinion, right? About three years or so only because, or maybe more, because I look back on Hurricane Andrew. And that shut the whole system down down here. And for years, I even five and six years, people were still lawyers are still following filing continuances and things because their offices were droid and they were shut down, and they couldn't get back together. But I think what's going to have to happen is, once jury trials pick up, once they pick up, a lot of cases will then start to resolve because of the pressure of trial on both sides, resolving meaning a settlement. And once you have that some of the cases are going to start been close. They'll always be new ones. But then we'll start to be able to to try cases of getting back in order. But I think we're three years before normalness, even if we kind of started today. Right? Well, and that's an interesting point, comparing it to Andrew, because two disasters, but two totally different you right? Yeah, lawyers, I mean, downtime, you know, lost. And back then. Paper files were everything, you know, pretty much lost everything here, at least with practices. You could continue the practice with the exception of no jury trials and key evidentiary hearings, I think but again, credit to the lawyers in South Florida to be able to adapt, you know, start working from home, at least be able to continue to move cases to some degree. And again, I think a lot of credit to the judges, because at least I found certain judges really embraced it. Yeah. And they had some more time on their hands. Yeah, I've never had so many case management conference. Yes. And they were just case management conference ago. What are you doing to move your case? And that's needed? I mean, you know, to really push these lawyers because we are past the point of saying, you know, I need to continue for this. And that, I mean, cases need to be certified trial ready now. Yeah, that's a good point. So we tried a lot of things. And the judges tried a lot of things like non binding arbitrations, which is kind of a mini trial in front of an arbitrator to then decide based on what he hears in the argument. Is there any fault and how much the money, how much money should be exchanged or settled, but it's, like I said, non binding. So it was only a suggestion doesn't really have too much of a bite. But we're really, really trying to close files because the only way we're ever going to move ahead is to close the existing pending case law and judges are looked at or one of the things are evaluated on is closing cases. Not that they're just trying to close cases to close cases. But there's only so many judges is a lot of cases, it's Dade County, criminal and civil and you got to get the process close because there's new cases every day. They're being evaluated on that they're doing a fantastic job in Dade County, Broward is starting up very soon. They have a very strong and powerful administrative judge up there judge tutor in West Palm Beach is already starting to try cases. A little bit more laxed up in the Palm Beach area north of north of that area in Jacksonville, they're trying it. But Dade County, I think is really under the circumstances of of our makeup down here doing probably the best job they can to get the system rolling. Yeah, I think you got to give a lot of credit I watched early on. And it was Brad in Washington, some other lawyers I knew. Did that experimental trial? Yes. You know, again, for jury selection of of having 40 little boxes and trying to engage people. I just don't see how that ever works. Well, I think because we feel as trial lawyers, that we're so great. Everybody wants to us. Yeah, we all want to be watched. So we want to be there. But I think it's very important for the lawyers to watch the jurors every second. That's what I do. We're trained observers of the entire courtroom looking at the judges face. The jurors faces posing parties faces opposing attorneys faces, and we're gathering information, probably wrongly who knows but that's what we do for a living and we try to use all that to our advantage to help our client. That's when you figure out juror number six. Wasn't that he didn't like your case. He just had indigestion from what he hadn't lunch but that face you're like, oh, we're in trouble. Now. You're right, right. Or he wasn't sleeping because you were being totally boring. He was just very tired, right? But that's the things that happens. And I think the way our system is and it's one of a kind in the world With our Seventh Amendment and the right to a jury trial is that it's kind of set up or everybody should be in the room, you should be able to confront your witnesses against you, you should be able to be able to look, that jury in the eyes going to make a decision on your case. And I think that's the best way. But we're trying, even though we can't do that part right now, we still got to move through the cases, or we're never going to have justice at the end of the day. And in the way we thought was best having everybody together in one room 100%. And those issues, because you mentioned on that task force constitutional lawyers, was just in, I guess, the other day, and it shows up the Maria's friend of mine, you know, has now raised an issue and tried to take it up on appeal because he doesn't want a witness to testify with a mask on. Because again, and you think about it the way we see each other now and you wear masks, but you can't you know, you can only read so much from somebody, and a judge in the courthouse Dade County Courthouse goes alright, well, we're gonna wear the clear plastic mass, but they start steaming All right. So you can't it's we're trying to best we can. But I I see the point you want to see the facial expressions were trained to read the demeanor of a person, like a lie detector test, based on what they look like in their body motions. The other thing was when the constitutional lawyers raised up raising the taskforce, we what kind of jurors are we going to get during the pandemic, if we start sending out the notice we're going to be filtering through people on different categories of people based on their thought in their mind that they can go into the courthouse and be safe versus people that are just as qualified just want to stay home because they believe being safe is there and does that give you a fair trial, because you want to cross section of all the jurors and date potential jurors in Dade County to pick from. And then for medical malpractice cases? Well, we were used to have 100 jurors come in to select from you select six out of 100. And that might sound like a lot, but a lot of people have opinions are very strong. And those people shouldn't sit on a trial with strong opinions. So you end up almost always like with only a couple extra out of 100. So now we're like bringing 24 in or 28 people in to pick from, and that's just gonna, that's the way it has to be if you want to get your case moving shut down and help your client out. And but but the problem with that is trying to get six out of that 28 that both sides agree on. And you know, not gonna say defense lawyers or anything else. But you know, it's an easy way to get this to continue to roll over when sure can't get six jurors. Sure. Everybody wants a B side wants to jurors who they think is there is they agree with me. Yeah, 100%. Same definition is justice, right. But that's all it takes to get through this one of a kind situation, we're gonna have to just dig through it and get through that. I think it's been tremendous, and you know it firsthand, but again, credits to judge Soto and judge Bailey and all of all of the Dade County judges, because we do get to look a little wider in the state of Florida as to what's going on, and I think Dade County has has been a front runner from trying the virtual trials, you know, on an experimental basis to trying in person but, you know, jurors are sitting six feet apart, you know, you don't hand them any documents, they've got all of the exhibits ahead of time, I mean, but trying every single aspect of it to to get back to where we can function as a courthouse again, kind of prevents you from doing your old trick of showing the document at the last second. Actually, now you have to pre Mark everything, you have to give everything away in advance. It's really not. I'm just joking with you. We're not supposed to have any surprises. But again, that's taken all these things take the edge off, the more clever lawyer or the more sophisticated lawyer, and but again, we got to just dig in and do it. Oh, we're never gonna get out of this mess. Here. Let's see, I've always wanted you watch all the law and order shows and everything else. Yes. Have you ever had a motion in your pocket? Because you ever notice there's a debate that's never coming in? Well, here's our motion to suppress. So I've got to figure out a way I can just start carrying some motions in my I've never had it but I've had for it. I thought it was very strange that coincidentally they pulled something out when they're arguing to the judge when I had no clue that they were going to do that. So I was always thought it was a little fishy, right? That happens. But no, I've never been able to do that. I wish I could. Yeah, well and I also where I grew up down the street from from Jamie Spats, who was a The phenomenal story trial attorney and but I learned from him early on, and I it's harder to do on zoom. Because when he'd see a juror start to nod off, he'd knock a book off of his Oh, yeah. Stay well, sorry. Sorry. No, yes. That way you don't embarrass the jury. Yeah. But you wake them up. Yeah. And it's funny because we think we're the most interesting people were telling the most interesting story and and you're like, why are you paying attention? I'm so interesting. I'm so good at what I'm doing. But that also helps you hone your skill. And maybe you have to change up something or move bob and weave and change up your story. if everybody's not paying attention. Well, I teach I teach the students because I teach over in the trial program. And so this this Saturday will actually have final trials, which we've done the last few all via zoom. But we do have jurors come in. And it is interesting, because No, it won't replace it, but they are engaged. Now these are a little different. Because these are students generally that are in either Miami Dade or in high school that are interested in, in learning about law. So they're very engaged. But it just you can't replace it with that. But one of the things I tell them is, you know, we all think we're, we're great, like you said, but you've done enough, I've done enough, you know, you do these mock trials, where you've got, you know, five different jury pools, they split out, and then you start watching on camera. And you're like, Okay, they got it. They didn't like, you know, yeah, no, they got what I wanted them to get. But the rest didn't. And it's just amazing to watch. But that's what's beautiful about the jury system is and I tell the students I go look, you know, you should always, you know, there's three trials, there's the one you prepared for, there's the one that you actually conducted, and then there's the one you should have conducted. Yeah, but you can't change too much. Because if you change out those six people, it's a whole different scenario, new game every single time. And I always wish that there, there would be the ability to always speak to the jurors after every jury trial. And what what the judge does go, you can speak to the lawyers or not speak to lawyers, most of them just want to get out and go home, wait, again, we think they're great. We want to hear they just want to get out of there. Sometimes they speak to you. And I've gotten fabulous commentary, and critique and compliments and everything that was very helpful. But Geez, that only happens. Not too often. And I wish that was something that we can do. But you get out. There's also you can do mock trials and where you get like you're saying you get jurors together and present your case. And then you can talk to them afterwards. Focus groups, we call them to where you run your case by him you can get hopefully, what they're thinking. But again, it all depends on the six jurors that are in a box at the time, because it's the different makeup every time. Well, that's one of the things with the students. And so the final trials we do. And I think it's one of the most beneficial things forms because the jury is deliberate in front of them. Whether we do at the courthouse or whether we do it via zoom. And I tell the students I said, Listen, it's the only chance you're going to ever get to do this. And it's hard sometimes because they finish. Again, they've just gotten through a trial, all they want to do is you know, I want to go have beer, leave me alone. But it is amazing. The feedback and from subtle things, you find habits that you didn't realize, you know, you know, you jiggle your keys or you know, things like that. But then there's also some just really good content, and you hear it from the jurors and and I tell the students I said look, take note of that, because it's it's invaluable. You don't get to do it in the real world never get to do that. And it's always interesting on how the jury interprets the law that we we see is black and white, because we do it so much a day in and day out. And then you'll hear stories where they might want to give a verdict, but then they have to, they go well, we have to calculate in the attorneys fee, which you're not supposed to bring up a day. Everybody's somewhat familiar with how at least civil stuff works. But you got to just keep instructing them not to do it. But it's interesting to always know that that could happen in your jury room. And you have to look for a strong four person who's going to lead the jury and try to pick that person ahead of time. But then again, you're probably wrong nine out of 10 times when you think who's going to be the form and when you've done the bed at the end who's going to be the foreman and it's the least likely person you're like everybody's going Yeah, exactly. So that's always interesting. Yeah, it's always fun. Yeah, you reached a verdict that one stands up you're like, supposed to be a 44 person that cannot be mad at not a good sign and most timid shy person that you thought was timid and shy was yelling in the vocal in the background. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's always interesting and it is wala flawed. I agree. I think it's the greatest system in the world, for both criminal and civil. So let's talk pandemic a little bit. You're on your practice. I mean, how has it affected you? And what do you see as things that have come out of this that will continue? Well, I don't like the new recent law that was signed in Florida, that gives immunity to a lot of different people. My major concern, part of that is medical. So on the other hand, I fully understand that in the midst of the pandemic, when everybody was overwhelmed, and in the healthcare industry, it's hard to hold them to the normal standard of care in that situation. And I believe there should be some type of immunity for that. But I think the law that's in place has been too, it's too broad. Because if, if you're in there for in the hospital for an appendicitis, and the hospital wasn't busy, because it was one of those down periods, but there's still quote, unquote, COVID around in the hospital, more likely than not, that those health care providers will be immune from liability. If they failed to diagnose your appendicitis based on the wording of that statute. It's now you have to prove once you get through hoops, you have to prove gross negligence, which is impossible, right, and basically tried to kill them, you know, right. And you have to before that even argue that they were acting in bad faith, which is lose a lot of bad medicine. But to me personally, a lot of them are not acting in bad faith, or they're making a big mistake, but not acting in bad faith not acting grossly negligent. That's not where most of the cases I ever see. It's a negligent mistake, a medical mistake or medical error to cause an injury. So you're never going to get through those hoops. And that's going to cut out a lot of cases, I have a case now that I don't think has anything to do with COVID. But I we roundtable date among many lawyers, and we've and the person's brain damaged that 52 years old, and that case is going to be dropped because their health care providers gonna have immunity on the medical and the medical care entry. I, I agree with you. And you sort of said, because you offered this blanket immunity but but the way we talked about with medical malpractice Anyway, you have to have an affidavit from an expert says they were below the standard of care. And I think, particularly early on, and I think the health care providers did an amazing job of dealing with this, but I don't think there was a standard of care. So I don't think you'd be able to find experts to say that these COVID related issues. You know, we're below the standard of care, because who's going to define that? But everything else? As with every other business, medicine went on, just like other businesses went on. Yeah. And so yeah, the fact that you sort of blanket immunity, everything is a good is is sort of a difficult problem. But, and I agree, you know, you talk about you talk about doctors, and I get a lot of times, you know, I don't want to sue my doctor. But I say but but if you hired an architect, and the back, you know, portion of your roof collapsed. Oh, I'd sue them. Yeah, but but it's the same thing. They're a professional. So no, it's not an issue that they have to be in bad faith, or they are intending this or because you're right. The vast, vast majority of cases aren't that. Yeah, but they're professionals. They need to be held to standards, you put your trust in them. And you should be able to rely on that. Yeah. And I have a lot of friends, my good, close, close, close friends are doctors. And if they asked me to help them look at a case where they're sued, and I firmly believe they did nothing wrong, I would help them. Just like I'll help the patient. We just can't have frivolous lawsuits. We have to have meaningful just lawsuits. And if my friend made a mistake, and I looked at the case and said you made and I determined me sick, I'd say man, you made the right, you made a mistake. You got to take care of this issue, and then hope let the family move on and you move on. It was a mistake. It wasn't no one's saying you did anything intentionally. On the patient side. I would say listen, the doctor was wrong. He shouldn't have done that. And he caused you significant injury, I'll represent you and take care of that. So I just want to make sure that I'm looking to make sure that there's no frivolous lawsuits out there because we'll get back to killing all the lawyers. And that's probably where that comes from, for taking on ridiculous things and that's the lot of the times that that's the stuff that you Putting the newspaper it does. I mean, that's the unfortunate part of the when. When people are looking on lawyers to see what type of profession It is, yeah. And and you get you get a lot of that, because that's what they see they see the McDonald's cases. And, and that's what they want to set the standards and Oh, it was horrible liability in that too. But But yeah, but you know, that's what's perceived. So you're right. And but I think and I, young lawyers I work with students I work with and whatnot, I said, you know, obviously lawyers get a bad reputation at times. I said, but that's up to you to control the reputation you have, you know, Jim knows isn't going to file some frivolous lawsuit, you know, to get his name and a headline somewhere. You control that. So control your own reputation. And then yeah, maybe Shakespeare was wrong, and they shouldn't kill all the lawyers was Shakespeare mean, one of the lawyers that caused a sticker to go on a lawn mower, and it says don't use it to cut hedges. So that'd be all the kill the lawyers lawyer. Yeah, that, you know, cruise controls and motorhomes, you know, good point and years ago, yeah, we're not talking about auto driving. You can't go make coffee while you're in the RV. I put it on cruise control. Not a good idea. No, no, there's a there's a balance in there somewhere else. So. So what else in your practice? Did you see a slowdown in the practice? How is your practice back and evolving? I think it wasn't a slowdown of new cases coming in and reviewing the cases, it was a slow process of resolving cases. So as I tell every client, we want to always, you know, you want to try to get the case resolved to get the stress off you and least amount of costs. But when there's no pressure on either side, my side, put the risk of trial on me on the other side to put the risk of a jury verdict on them. That slows the system down and you can't resolve cases and you can't help your clients out. And you have to tell them look, if the other side doesn't want to resolve the case, who might be in this thing, three, four years, right. And that's the honest truth. And that's what you have to be always be honest, obviously, with the client. So you tried to explain all that. And I think that made us more selective on cases, because you wanted to tell the client and get you a quicker resolution, I think, based on the facts of your case, versus something that's going to be around three, four or five years from now. Which makes it then harder and harder to resolve as the case goes on and on. And you end up with a jury verdict, which how great it is also, listen, you that it's now out of your control, it's out of the judges control, it's out of the other attorneys control, it's in the control of six people you never met before. And that's that that's the beauty of the process. And that's the not so beautiful part of the process. But it's the end result. And that takes time to get there. And especially when there's a pandemic going on, you're talking a long time from now, which is not that good for the client on either side. No, and the other aspects if you've got to wait, you know, another three years or so for the jury trial, that's not necessarily the end, things go very well for you, or things go bad for you. Sure. Then you've got the appellate courts forgot all about that. But that's 100%. Correct. And I had a case where I have some big photo boards in my office, I show the client that says look at this case, and they go oh, my god, did you When did you lose that? I go, No, I want it, y'all. That's great. I got no, because then the trial judge took the verdict away. They don't want they can do that again. Yeah, I didn't know that really, in that particular case. And then we went to the appellate court. And then, so that took three more years. And then the result was you have to try the case over again. And that was a two month trial. So and that changes all the dynamics. So you know, you want to resolve your case as quickly as possible for all different kinds of reasons that your lawyer can explain. And it's probably in your best interest always keep you have control of what the end result is. And maybe it's not the most perfect result. Maybe it's a great result. But you still maintain control and take out all the other risk of maybe getting nothing at the end of the day. Well said Well said. So we talked about the difficulty in sort of establishing and proving a medical malpractice case. So what advice do you have just to the general public who says Well, how do I know whether I've got a medical malpractice case? All right, if you think you have a medical malpractice case, and most people think they get that feeling from, unfortunately, the lack of communication from their physicians, or they're like, now this isn't the result it's supposed to happen, or it's so obvious that because you were in the hospital or you were in the doctor's office, or jus, and you know, what was being said, then versus now? Or it's the friend in New York, who's a lawyer who says, Oh, that's a multimillion dollar case. You know, that guy to every one of my this is a slam dunk. And yeah, yeah. And you'll get a lot of a lot of times the nurses will go, Oh, my God, I can't believe the doctor did that to you. I can't believe the doctors. I can't believe the nurses did that. Usually, they don't end up testifying to that at the end of the day. But yeah, yeah, but you need to get, you need to get a lawyer who is competent in medical malpractice, who is going to be committed to you that will know your case. And you don't want someone who drags the case on, doesn't return your phone calls, lack of communication, you want someone that's on top of it quick, decisive, and then puts the ball in your court at the end of the day for you to make the decision. But with the right information, that's who you need to get. A lot of times also, you might have a great case. But in Florida, there's no law requiring medical malpractice insurance. And so you might have a lawyer that says you have a great case, but I can't take it because there's no medical malpractice insurance, and then you have to explain that whole system. And it might seem that this is what I told the client, it might seem like it's unfair, which it is, but unfair, that the lawyer will take your case, because there's

Welcome to another episode of First off, let's kill all the lawyers that often miss quoted phrase from Shakespeare in the 1500s. And unfortunately, a lot of people still hear it and go, that's not a bad idea. I'm David Heffernan, and I've been practicing personal injury law in Miami for almost 30 years. And I've been teaching at u m, law school, in the litigation skills trial program for almost that long as well. And what I do is I represent individuals, and for example, maybe it's an auto accident, and we can't resolve it, we go back and forth with the insurance company, ultimately, a couple years down the road, get to a jury trial, and then either get a nice jury results or badger result. And you would think that might be the end of it. But it's not. That's when I call in guys like Phil Parrish, my first guest here today. Phil is an appellate lawyer. And Phil, let me just welcome you to the program first. And let's talk a little bit about and I not only call you after the fact because because I'm smart enough to call you ahead of time for the litigation support as well. But But let's talk about what appeals mean, what an appellate lawyer does. So first off, let's talk about you, Phil, welcome to the show. Alright, let's, let's try that again. All right, minor technical difficulties, that we've all it's so funny, you go back a year ago, and nobody knew what the hell zoom was, and people didn't freeze here and there. The good news, Phil, is you're not a cat. And so we can move from that premise on. But Phil is an appellate lawyer. He's a Board Certified appellate lawyer. And let's talk about that. So first off, how did you first off, let's talk about why you went to law school. Well, I, I didn't want to go to med school. And I, I had always enjoyed reading and writing more than arithmetic or science. So and I just thought that being a lawyer would be a rewarding career, try to help people out. I wasn't certain when I went to law school, what type of law I would practice. So I kind of went in to it. A little bit open ended. But I then then clerked with the old Fowler, white law firm in Tampa, back when they had, you know, big clerking programs, and I got the opportunity to work with an attorney named Chris Alden Byrne, who was later elevated to the second district court of appeal. After I worked with him, I got an offer there and started working there. And that's how I got into the appellate field. I saw what the trial attorneys were doing day in day out, I wasn't certain that that's what I wanted to do, or that was my best. Sometimes I can tell you that. Right. It seemed to be that the reading and writing aspect of it, you know, appealed to me, and to my skill set better than, you know, going out and knocking heads every day taking depositions. So that's how I trended over to the appellate side. Right. And, and I've been, I've been lucky to work with film, going back a long time now on on a lot of different cases. And, and I want to kind of break this down into a couple areas. So let's, let's talk first just about appellate work, and then I want to get into trial support, because I think those two certainly go hand in hand. But But I think a lot of people understand and you know, right? Wrong or different through TV, you know, okay, we know what a jury trial is, okay, you go in there and jury comes back with a verdict. But that generally never ends it. So. So how does the whole appeal process work? And let's just talk on the state court level at first. Sure. So I when people ask me, you know what I do I say that I complained to three judges about what one judge did. Or conversely, conversely, I explained to three judges why that one judge did the right thing. So what what you're typically doing within an appeal is after the proceedings are done in the trial level, and it depends on on what stage of proceedings, the case is done in the trial court. Sometimes there's a motion to dismiss, saying you have a state of claim that can occasionally be granted with prejudice, you can immediately appeal that and it's you're just gonna be talking about the law with the appellate court. Then there's the next stage, which is the summary judgment stage. After all the facts have been discovered. One side, usually the defense can say, we think even if you take everything the plaintiff has brought here, they still cannot prevail. They have no claim to go to a jury. And if summary judgment is entered, that can be immediately appealed. There's denied it cannot be appealed except in rare circumstances. With when the issues of qualified immunity, that type of thing. But for most personal injury cases that we're talking about here, the denial of a motion for summary judgment can't be appealed. And then of course, you have cases that have gone to verdict. And, you know, whichever side has lost, assuming they have exhausted their post trial motions can then appeal. That, and that's a it's a fairly long process, because the clerk has to get the record together, there is going to be three briefs, the party that's appealing the party that lost the trial, is going to do an initial reply brief. And the party that one below is going to do just an answer brief, there may or may not be an oral argument, all these things take time there are extensions granted. So people often ask me, how long is the appellate process, and it's typically one to two years. Sometimes it can be done in under a year. But a year to a year and a half is, is not unusual. Some of the more complicated cases can take over longer. Well, and that's, and that's one of the things I explain to clients when they come in is, is look, and we'll we'll put the pandemic aside for a minute, because it's going to take a while for us to finally kind of get to normal on both the trial and the appellate level. But you know, it may take, you know, case can settle early on, but it might take a year or two, it might take three years. And then after that there's no guarantee of anything, it might go up on appeal. So let's let's break down again, I think people understand the trial process, we go in there, there's a judge, there's a jury, we put witnesses on there, we present evidence to them. And then a jury, in most cases, ultimately decides what that question is, when somebody's at fault, not at fault. Who's owed money, who's not? You've talked about the appeal. So that comes out and somebody disagrees with it one way or the other. But what's the process in the appeal court? Now, I know you said early on, you argue with with three judges. But but so how does that work? You take my case, we've either won or we've lost. And it's going up on appeal, what's going to happen from here on out? Well, first thing is that, as I mentioned, the clerk has got to put the record together, which means all of the pleadings from below all the evidence that was entered if there's a trial and the trial transcript is necessary, because if you want to argue that there's an error, you're going to have to let the appellate court read the entire record. And that can be you know, anywhere from a couple 100 pages to 1000s and 1000s of pages, depending upon how long the case was litigated how long the trial took. So that takes, you know, the initial brief is due 70 days after the notice of appeal. Well, that's just you know, the initial rule of thumb, sometimes the clerk doesn't get the record ready on time, and you get extension for that. And you're talking about a brief a brief is now your written version. Yes, whatever the argument is saying the trial judge was right or wrong. Here's why. Right, and you have to, you know, you have to take all of it could be again, it could be 1000s of pages, and you want to raise issues that will, in essence, jump off the page at the to the appellate judges, the appellate judges have a tremendous workload. And these briefs, the initial brief can be, you know, as long as 50 pages now they're doing it by word, not by page, but under the old rules, it was 50 pages, they might want to read, you know, dozens of cases weak that they have to prepare for. And you have to hit them right up front with, in plain language, what it is that would make them go Oh, wow, that seems wrong. If you're the appellant, you're the one who's appealing, you want to be able to put in essentially, the first paragraph were to grab their attention and say, Okay, I want to read more about this, because that seems wrong, what occurred below. And and so it's a matter of, you know, telling the story. It's obviously nonfiction because it's based on the facts record. And again, we as appellate lawyers are either benefited by or stuck with the record as this, we cannot add to it at the appellate level, which we'll get back into the lit support issue in a minute as to why that may be important to bring someone like myself on for let's support but you are pulling it all together in a in a story that like if you were going to read a novel that they said the first few lines are, are very important to the first sentence draw people into the characters. It's the same except it's in fiction. I mean, it's in nonfiction, it's factual and but you you want to make it a readable brief. So you want to write it in plain language. And and yet still tell a compelling narrative as to why, if you're the appellant why the case must reversed, if you're the appellee. It's why the trial court and the jury were, you know, absolutely right. They did everything right. Or if they didn't do everything, right, the small things they did wrong, you know, don't matter. They there's the concept of harmless or there could be arable, though, but unless it really affected the outcome, and it's clear to the appellate court that affected the outcome, they're going to say, look, we you're not entitled to a perfect trial, you're just entitled to a fair trial. All right. So this thing gets fully briefed. Everybody presents their story. And then I think you mentioned oral argument. How does that differ from, you know, again, jury trial, we argue for people that we bring in off the street that are selected as jurors, who's this argument going to? So the argument is for the three, usually in a state appellate courts can be three, if you could get in the rare occasion to the Florida Supreme Court seven. And even the federal court as well. Typically, it's a three judge panel. And they often do not hold oral argument cases, some cases they look at and they say so routine. If we address it, we're not going to really be addressing a novel issue or an issue that we think is important to write on. And that includes occasionally they're even without oral argument, they will reverse. But in cases where they decided they want oral argument, sometimes it's because there's a little lack of clarity in the briefing, and they want to ask some questions. Sometimes they want to get concessions out of a party at an oral argument. But they're they're looking at the legal arguments you raise. And it depends on again, we I mentioned summary judgments before that goes up on de novo review. So they're looking at the record, just like they're putting themselves in the same position as the trial judge. They don't have to give any deference to what the trial judge did. They can look at the record, and particularly if they're looking at legal issues, legal document interpreting a contract, that sort of thing. If it's a trial, and there is a there was a an evidentiary issue. The does judge, you know, declare that something was hearsay or wouldn't allow a piece of evidence to be introduced. That is a abuse of discretion standard, although it's modified by the actual rules of evidence. I mean, you can you can't give so much deference to the trial court, not follow the rules of evidence. So they give deference because the trial judge, was there a trial judge saw the witness at trial judge the interactions? I mean, sure, if it's a if it's an issue, for instance, an evidentiary hearing or a bench trial, the judge in the jury both are given the benefit of the doubt in terms of making credibility determinations that appellate judges do not do that they give must give deference to the determination of the Trier of fact whether it's a judge in a bench trial or the jury in a in a jury trial, unless it's so obvious that there was some other error that affected the jury, or the trial judge and making those determinations, but they don't look at the credibility determinations. Alright, one of the things I find fascinating, and I don't think people understand a lot about appellate work, the ability impact law, I mean, we know legislation, I mean, government creates laws and everything else, but but courts can through the interpretation of those have changes an impact in laws. And and one of the things that I think is fascinating about appellate work is I don't think a lot of people understand what an abacus brief is, but you can have people that aren't parties to this appeal. So the two parties or whatever, they take it up on appeal, but 30 or 40 different groups can send in their own briefs to the appellate court explain that process? Well, so yes. Oftentimes, not as much at the district court level, although there are exceptions when for certain issues. You see it most often in the United States Supreme Court. I don't I doubt that they decide very many cases at all, where they don't have at least a few Abacus briefs. And there's been a lot of criticism over whether the Supreme Court and other courts rely too much on Amazon's briefs because amyx briefs are not based upon the record, they're there to advocate a policy position. And they often you know, rely on, let's say, a study or or treatises or something that that's not wasn't part of the record. It's not necessarily even, you know, peer reviewed, but the dependent Upon the policy position that a court might decide to adopt, they'll often utilize the AMA case briefs in that process. Sometimes you'll see on personal injury, the Florida justice used to be the academy for trial or FGA will, will come in on this side of the place. The problem with that is that if one side gets an abacus, then the other side's guaranteed to get an abacus or two. So you can have the abacus wars and there could be like a nuclear proliferation of, of Abacus briefs on peels? Yeah, I mean, I just always sort of found it fascinating that you could have people because because you define this look, the appellate lawyers have to take the record, here's everything that worked. In other words, your universe is limited to this record, applying the law to it and everything else. Whereas You're right, these other people, hey, here's our opinion on it. Yeah. So I find it interesting that that winds up there. So Alright, we've gone through you have this oral argument. And then what happens once the I mean, in other words, how do they decide an opinion? Right? Well, sometimes. And I think most of the time, I believe that the panel, the judges on the panel have probably a pretty good idea of how they want to roll. Occasionally, I think they change their minds. At oral argument, the oral arguments, by the way, after all these years of litigation, and maybe 1000s of pages. Sometimes they're only 10 or 15 minutes aside, some courts will give as many as 20. But so 10 minutes, and if the judges are asking you a lot of questions, you don't, you know, it's not like you have an opportunity to really go through the issues fully. But as the judges will tell you, at the beginning of the oral arguments, we've read everything, we've read the briefs, and we've read portions of the record, usually there's one of the three judges whose primary on the case, and that judge will probably have done a deeper dive into record than the other two judges have. Sometimes they've got clerks who have, you know, synopsize, the the briefs and given them the issues, but usually they've read the briefs, and at least portions of the record, sometimes it comes down to just a few pages of the record that are important. And in that in those situations, you hopefully, either attach that as an appendix to the brief, it's small enough, even though it's hard to get the record, or you've really highlighted it in your brief, so that the court is very familiar with it, but you might need to be able to reiterate there, then they go into a immediately after that warnings, they may hear two or three or four cases that morning, go go into a conference and usually have an initial book on, you know, whether yay or nay. Or and or whether it's going to be written or just what they call it purpureum affirmed, which means they all agree that should be affirmed. But they don't think that it's worth writing lengthy opinion on because they're all in agreement. And it did, it didn't merit. You know, it wasn't such a new or novel issue or just didn't merit writing an opinion. Because there's they have so many cases, they wrote an opinion on every case, it would, you know, would overwhelm them. So if you're the side that won, and you see that PCA that's that's a good thing. It's all gone. Well, yes. We're not touching anything. Right. Alright. So the other opinions, and there's a lot they can do. I mean, obviously, they can send it back to the trial court, they can send it back to trial court for specific issue. And then are we sort of in the same process? If it goes back to the trial court, however, that result comes out? They can take that back up on appeal? Absolutely. I mean, there are cases that get tried twice, you know. So I read recently that some case here in South Florida was being tried for a third time with a friend of mine a 10 year period. He says, I don't get it. He goes, you know, you try it the first time the defense doesn't really know all your arguments. You got to try it the second time, same facts are dealing with, they know you're arguing to try a third time he goes I'm not sure what I'm going to do just yet. But but makes it very, very interesting that, you know, litigation. I mean, that's that's been around I think over 10 years now. Yeah. So, alright, so can you appeal something? Well, let's break that. For Miami Dade, for example. It's the third district court of appeals that would take your state court appeals to can you appeal the third district? You can but in only very narrow circumstances. And in a civil case, it's basically two ways to do that. It the decision would have to conflict with expressly conflict with a another District Court of Appeal decision from a different district. Because if it conflicts with another decision within the third then that's you take that to the whole third day. Ca called on bog proceeding. So it has to conflict with a Supreme Court decision or another District Court of Appeal decision. And then you can you still have to invoke the Supreme Court's jurisdiction, do a jurisdictional brief. And then the Supreme Court will rule on whether they think at least preliminarily that there's a conflict, and then they'll ask for briefs on the merits and hold oral argument. And the only other way I think to get a civil case up would be if he can be certified by the Court of Appeal itself. Usually, you would request that in emotion, sometimes they do it sua sponte on their own. And that is, if it's an issue of great public importance, those are even probably more rare than then conflict jurisdiction, but those are but it's very narrow. There aren't many cases, you have an automatic right to appeal pretty much any civil case, criminal case, to the intermediate District Courts of Appeal, and they don't really consider themselves to be intermediate, if they are the final word or less, unless you meet one of those two exceptions. So they there, there really are a few cases that make it to the Florida Supreme Court on the civil side. All right. Well, I actually was fortunate if I argued a case in front of the Supreme Court, and I don't do much appellate work. But it was a very interesting experience. So and was fortunate my daughter was in Florida State at the time, so I got to go there. She did get a little mad at me, though, because she was there with two friends from Florida State. The justices hadn't taken the bench, and I turned around through the U. Which was somehow going to get me in trouble in the Florida Supreme Court. But but they didn't catch it. And it went well. So let me ask you this. We've got a lot of great Trial Lawyers been doing this a long time. We study the rules, you study everything. We've got good judges, but how is it that almost no case ever comes out without an appellate issue? No, there are just so many legal issues that that come up in a case, obviously, the parties are diametrically opposed as to what the facts are often, what even if they agree on what the facts are, they don't always agree on how they fit within the area of law. If a case goes to trial, you know, there are going to be objections, and some are sustained, some are overruled. So, you know, there are gonna be issues with jury selection, you know, did it should should a jury have been dismissed for cause I recently won an appeal in the third district on that issue. So there are so many areas where error can occur. And, you know, as appellate lawyers, and then as the appellate judges, we always get to look at things in retrospect. And, you know, with a clear eye reading transcript, when you're the trial lawyer, this decisions are being made, at the moment, same thing with a trial judge. They don't, sometimes they do, but a lot of times, they don't want to take a recess and go research the law, they're kind of, you know, not, I don't want to say shooting from the hip in a in a, in a negative way. But they're, they're having to make decisions in real time, and on a schedule. And so it's just natural that the issues are going to arise. Now, that doesn't mean that I mean, that the appellate judges would tell you, they see you, you know, many, many, many cases, and they don't really see any real error, or they think the error is is de minimis, and not enough to affect the trial, they don't really sit there thinking, Oh, boy, what am I going to reverse today? In fact, if he's if you think that as the appellant, you're, you're wrong, you need to that's why I pointed out initially, you need to grab their attention. And you need to have something to grab their attention with. I mean, you can typically make it up the there has to be actual error. And it has to appeal to them both on an intellectual sense, and sometimes on a gut sense. that those are the best ways to sometimes it's both if it's a yes, there's a case that says that this was there, but also look, look at how this affected the trial. That's just not fair. at bottom, the appellate judges are looking to see was that fair? Sometimes the law isn't fair, and they're following the law and, and saying, sorry, that's the way the law was written by folks in Tallahassee or Washington DC. And we may not like it, but that's the way the law is and so fairness doesn't factor in as much but in your typical personal injury case, in terms of trial error, did the judge get something wrong? Introducing evidence. Did you see the jury that shouldn't have been seated? Because of bias, that type of thing? It's really, ultimately a fairness issue. So as an appellate lawyer, you're the ultimate Monday morning quarterback who gets to look at trial lawyers like me and go like, why don't you do this? Or why don't you know? We're still here, the fact litigations litigation support, and this is where you and I have met years ago, because I think, not patting myself on the back, I think the better lawyers reach out and work hand in hand with appellate lawyers from the onset in an effort to try to say, how do we present all of this? How do we develop all of this? And how do we try to make it although near impossible, sort of appellate proof, so talk about your role when a lawyer like me calls you, and I've done it in cases with you, where I've called you as early on as the drafting of the complaint? I have? Is this is a right, you know, are these the right causes of action? And should we plead something else? So, but but talk about and you've done that, I mean, you've done that for over 30 years, helping trial lawyers, like myself, talk about your litigation support. So, as you pointed out, sometimes it's as early as the complaint, because, I mean, people don't call me on the easy cases. wouldn't make sense. So you don't typically need a second set of eyes, or an experienced appellate attorney who might spend more time reading the law on those maybe knows the trends a little better goes back to what I was talking about, when I decided to become an appellate attorney versus doing what you do, which is, you're out there all the time taking depositions, and meeting with clients and meeting with doctors and taking the experts i. So I, what I do is more of a look at this at 30,000 feet. Where what are the possible trap doors that you could have in this case? And how can we avoid those? What are the what are the bases, we have to tag in order to get home. And so it's kind of working hand in hand. And often I'm hired by, you know, sole sole practitioners or people like stuffing a one or two person or small law office that don't have, they don't want to keep an pellet or support attorney on staff at all times, because that's an expensive thing to carry. But in the important cases, where they think it's it makes sense, can bring me along on a contingency basis, taking part of your fee, but hopefully, all you know, a rising tide lifts all boats, hopefully, and when everybody went to try and yes, you know, if by two has been better than one, if we can increase the value of the case, or make more certain that that there is a value to it at all, then you know that there's a settlement or a verdict, then that's helpful to the client itself, which is the trial lawyer to have a different set of eyes, and instead of eyes, it's accustomed to perhaps looking at things a little bit differently. And so yeah, you know, get involved in planning, the right causes of action, get involved with hoping to respond with summary judgments. And that's gonna be, I think, very important. And now because we're going to the federal standard. Let's let's talk about that for a minute. So summary judgment is is a tool that, uh, that a judge can essentially, and the case on a judge can look at this and say, Look, judge decides the law. Judge aside the fact there are no issues of fact here to be decided. This is a matter of law and I as the judge, I'm going to decide this, and and you were talking about it, you know, the granting of that can ultimately wind up to an appellate issue. So So what's changing in the state courts about summary judgment? Okay, so there's a lot of hand wringing and cheese gnashing over the fact that the Florida Supreme Court announced it about a year and a half ago, it went into effect may 1 of this year has adopted the federal standard. for summary judgment, it's often been believed by most legal practitioners, that that's an easier standard to as a defendant to have a summary judgment granted, I think it's not nearly as big a change as some people think it is. I've been doing a lot of federal court work primarily in the field of Admiralty on the cruise Cruise Line cases. And so I've got a fair amount of experience with the federal summary judgment standard. And I mean, first of all, procedurally, the big difference now in state court and everybody needs to be aware of this is that the Motion must be filed at least 40 days prior to the hearing response. This is big change. And typically these are filed by defendants plaintiffs can file motions for summary judgment, and occasionally do so whether partial, usually partial, is that the response by the non moving party, it has to be filed 20 days before the hearing, not as it was before, two days, actually 36 hours because it's by five o'clock pm, or the old rule was by five o'clock pm two business days prior? Well, if your hearing was on a Friday morning, you could file something at 459. On Wednesday, your affidavit in response or whatever response you are filing. Now, it's 20 days and with us, for Supreme Court said in that regard is we want to make certain that the judge has more of an opportunity to to review everything, and not to be making decisions when when something is filed 36 hours before the hearing. The court also says that judges have to provide not just the ruling, but the reasoning for their ruling now. So that does make it more like a federal courts just now, you know, the federal judges have usually two law clerks full time law clerks, who are graduates of law school, I was just doing that prior to entering practice. State courts don't have that resource. So it'll be interesting to see how that works out. Obviously, what's going to happen is all the orders will be written by the prevailing party and then the judge can probably look at them, maybe some judges will take the time to, to, to write out their orders, but will that'll be See, but in terms of the law is not as big a change. And as as some people fear it is I think there's a lot of concern amongst plaintiffs travelers out there that he, you know, just a completely different animal. But the the Florida Supreme Court said one of the things that they wanted to do was to provide the full body of federal case law on summary judgment to trollers now, I mean to draw, but that case law isn't that much different. For instance, the 11th circuit, which is the federal appellate circuit that handles Florida, it also handles appeals from Georgia and Alabama has referred to the summary judgment as a lethal weapon, a lethal weapon, depriving a litigant of a trial, and therefore, caution must be used. So you know that there's case law says that and that should be given to the state trial court judges. In any summary judgment response, you're still looking that all fashion references still have to be drawn in favor of the non moving party. In our scenario, the plaintiff, again, sub law is the same reasonable minds might differ on the references, then summary judgment should be denied. There's 11th circuit case law that says that, again, the judges duty is not to weigh credibility of the parties weighing evidence and credibility or jury functions. Not for the judge. That's the same law that we have always operated on in Florida. You know, with the four Supreme Court adopted, called the celotex trilogy of cases, and but this case, you say you look at the substantive law, on the type of case that you're dealing with. So the substantive law on copyright infringement or libel is far different than it is in negligence cases. We all know that there are state court negligence is that have always said, summary judgment should rarely be granted in negligence cases, because of the nature of what negligence is or isn't what a reasonable person standard is? Well, the same law exists in the 11th circuit. And it should be cited to the trial judge, if you are responding to a summary judgment. Let former Fifth Circuit cases which which are adopted by the 11th circuit, let's say that very thing. So the other thing that is important to remember is that that is the 11th circuit case law that says you cannot simply disregard what the plaintiffs testimony is, because you think it's self serving. There's 11th circuit case called Feliciano versus city of Miami. It says courts routinely and properly deny sorry, judgment on the basis of a party sworn testimony, even though it is self serving. You basically you can't discount it unless it is completely contrary to everything else in the record completely contrary to the laws of physics or, you know, that sort of thing. It's not. So if you look at the case law, that's developing evansburg it's not that different of an animal. Are there differences? Yes, there are that the Florida Supreme Court said, we want to bring our summary judgment law more in line with a directed verdict standard. So some of the cases that said, you know, the, the moving parties, duty and a summary judgment motion is greater than the moving party is duty directed vertical, that case law can no longer be relied upon, under the standard, but what a lot of of it is, is really just the same. So it's important that we educate the state court judges who I think are under the most likely under the impression unless they did a lot of federal court work, when they were a lawyer, that that, you know, the floodgates for granting summary judgment be open. And we need to make certain that it's just a, you know, it's a release of a little bit of relief, but it's really not a sea change, if you were, as it were, in the in the law on summary judgment, they need to understand that. All right, well, you now get to see why lawyers like me call lawyers like Phil, because they're much smarter than us. And they helped guide us through all of these things. There's more time to read. That's all. Reading, we don't let that slow us down as trial lawyers. I know this over the years, Phil prefers when the call starts like this. Hey, Phil, I got a question. What do you think I should do about this? As opposed to Hey, Phil, I did this what do you think? So it's good to reach out Phil is a great great trial support and great great appellate lawyer and and hopefully this morning, you got some insight into not only the complexities of trial work, but then what it means like on appeal, and just the overall complexity of litigation, and and you also got to know what I've known for a lot of years because Phil's not only a great lawyer and associate that I work with, but a good friend and so maybe he's one more we can take off the kill list and and realize that maybe we shouldn't kill all the lawyers. But Phil, I really appreciate your time this morning. Thanks for spending it with us. Oh, my pleasure, David. Thank you. Alright, thank you. And we'll see you guys next week. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsNsp5QGKag

Ghosts of the Orange Bowl with Jay Rao and David Heffernan Welcome to the ghosts the Orange Bowl I'm Jay Rao for Miami's community newspapers. Our guest today spent many Saturdays at the Orange Bowl as an offensive lineman for the University of Miami Hurricanes and during that time, he protected quarterbacks like Bernie Cozaar and Vinny Testaverde as a member of the 1983 National Championship team. Today, he's protecting the rights of of accident victims. As a personal injury attorney. Please welcome to our show David Heffernan. Thanks very much. My pleasure. My pleasure, Dave, and you grew up in Miami. Tell me tell me what the Orange Bowl meant to you as a kid growing up? Well, it was it was funny, because it really didn't mean that much. If you look back at the University of Miami, you know, there was nobody their high school game for drawing bigger, bigger crowds, or I think Jackson played there and a few other people, you know, be a Friday night and Burger King and have a two for one, you know, Miami, you know, hurricane, you know, get a whopper and get a ticket to the game. But really, and you know, we've talked a lot about this year because because of the passing of Howard schnellenberger. But really, I think when Howard started to create the sort of magic city of Miami and the aura of the Orange Bowl is when a lot of that really started. I mean, at least from a college football, obviously the dolphins going there as a kid and watching the 72 dolphins, you know, that's as special as it gets. Do you remember the first time you went to the Orange Bowl? Probably around that 72 season. I don't know that I've been there before. But I got to a game or two during that 72 season and you know, look, growing up in Miami at that point. They were the only show in town, right? I mean, there wasn't basketball. There wasn't baseball, there wasn't hockey and again, the University of Miami was not anything really in college football yet. So the dolphins were very special to this time right now. Now when you were growing up in Miami, you went to Columbus High School. And Columbus had a you started a long pipeline of Columbus players that went to u m like your your teammates. Julio Cortez, john McVeigh, Kevin McCutcheon Alonzo Highsmith, the crystal ball brothers, Carlos Swartz, the list goes on. What was it about Columbus high and the University of Miami what drew all you guys there to Coral Gables? Well, I can I can say for me, and it took a little longer for Julio and chandi McVeigh to figure it out. Because because they went elsewhere and came back. But but it was simple. I wanted to get out of town I wanted to get out of Miami. But again, it goes back to coach ellenberger, who recruited you and basically said, Listen, online, unlike other schools, he never bashed any of the schools, I was talking about going to all fine schools, all fine schools, but he said, Look, if you want to be part of something special, this is where you need to be. And it resonated with me. And it resonated with pretty much everybody he recruited. And obviously, you know, like a prophet, his word came true. It's interesting, you mentioned that because schnellenberger when you look at his older interviews, he wasn't talking about, you know, just being able to compete. He was talking about winning national championships when the program was on his deathbed, almost, how did he How was he able to sell you on that dream? Well, you know, he had a big Super Bowl ring on taking the dolphins THROUGH THROUGH THE ONLY perfect season even today in the NFL. And and he was a visionary. He believed in it. And, you know, you're read all of this now and how you have to buy in the program? Well, it starts with the head coach, I mean, whatever that head coach that philosophy is, if the team doesn't buy into that, and well, he doesn't buy into it, you're never gonna get your team to buy into. So Howard believed it. And then you saw it by the actions, because they were Miami was independent of time. So he wouldn't, he wasn't worried about home on away with Notre Dame or Bama. It's like, fine, we'll go play him on the road. We'll go play this. He said you got to play the best. And so if you look at those early schedules, that's who we were playing, right, you know, and then you start negotiating homeaway but it didn't matter at that point. It's like fine, we'll go play on the road. Hey, you mentioned that because at that time, they didn't believe you guys didn't belong to a conference. You want an independent team so you played teams from anywhere at any time. You can play a big big eight team or what's the big 12 now sec team like Florida Sure. Or Notre Dame which was also an independent so you guys, you guys played like a very What? A very, very schedule at that time. Well, that was that was his philosophy man who's gonna put Miami on the map. Yeah, you got to go play the best I mean, you know, and it's harder sometimes now with conferences and I get that but but yeah, line up with the best if you want to show me You're the best right now. When you were in high school, I noticed that you won the silver night. Now for those who don't know, the silver night is is like one of the most prestigious awards a student a student can achieve in Dade County. It's, it's, it's some of the past winners include Ted Hendricks. Neil cosy. I even noticed that Jeff Bezos of Amazon was a silver night award winner. How did you? How did you get involved in that? And what's what's involved in winning a silver night? Well, I like to think I could have done what basis did but but I would have worked out well, I didn't know you could take a silver night and launch it into Amazon. But But I could probably get it delivered to you overnight. No, it's it's the Miami Herald has run that for years. And you get nominated your school nominate you. And then there's an application process and interview process. And, frankly, I mean, I still watch to this day, the students that win and I kind of pinch myself a little bit and go, Okay, how did I win that? Because it's just an impressive array of what these students are doing. And, you know, we all think we've got time constraints and whatnot, but you look at what they donate and dedicate time to, to charities and organizations and they start organizations and they found organizations when they're 1617 years old, right now, because you were such a great student. You were an all county defensive lineman, we'll get to that later. But you are a defensive lineman all county defensive lineman, great student, you obviously had your choice of just about any college. Right? I mean, who were some of the schools that offered you a scholarship? Well, I mean, Arizona State, Georgia Tech, I was this close to going to wake forest, just because I love the school, and they had actually gone eight and three, my senior year, and it's a beautiful campus. And john McAfee was the head coach there at the time. And I remember sitting in his office and asking, you know, sort of what is he see is the future whatnot, and whatever was a hesitation in his voice, whatever. I was worried he wasn't gonna be there long. He left the following year, that program never really went anywhere. And again, it just it simply was coach number. So you get to Miami, you get to the University of Miami, you use your you were a defensive lineman in high school, all of a sudden, schnellenberger comes up to you and says, I want you to play offense. What was your reaction? Well, other than, oh my God, I've made the biggest mistake of my life. I mean, he's starting training camp and you know, you got both playbooks and everything else and next thing you know, they hand me a football and take my defensive playbook and said, you're gonna play center. Well, I was sick for I weighed 208 pounds. Never snapped the ball before my life. And then the varsity came in. Starting nose tackle was a guy by the name of Jim Burton. Okay. New York Giants. Yeah, yeah, Super Bowl winner, New York Giants. A man that terrifies me to this day, and and beat me silly every day. Really where it was, you know, we would question what we're doing. But what Howard did, then, and it's really a change in high school now. But he took and created an offensive line. Ian Sinclair, who ultimately wound up being our starting center was a tight end. One common Darrow, who played South Miami High School was a defensive end, Paul Berta, Sally came over was a defensive tackle. Alvin Ward was the only one on the starting line when we won the national championship that actually played offensive line in high school. And I think what Howard saw, and you saw it in his philosophy with defense and Jimmy really then incorporated that you know, was was recruiter safety and make them bigger and let him play linebacker, and then get a linebacker and make him bigger, and, and so that you keep speed and everything else. And so he did that with an offensive line. And so, you know, for two, three years, we got beat by guys like Jim Burton, Tony chicle. Oh, and Lester Williams and fuzzy Nelson. So by the time we really got to take the field on our own, we'd been season we played against the best. So to touch on what you just said. They were they were basically recruiting offensive linemen to be more at more athletic. Yeah, I think I think Howard, I mean, one of the key things and they told me after you know, the, in the recruiting process was they watched me play basketball, in a Christmas tournament over killing in high school, you know, and again, they were looking at sides, they were looking at feet and everything else and just kind of projecting where things could go. I think it's a little different now because you look at some of the high school you know, these kids come out of high school and they're six five and 300 pounds and they're athletic, offensive lineman, so they're gonna play offensive line, but, but Howard was just finding the right pieces. You mentioned guys like Ian Sinclair, one common Darrow, Paul Berta. solian, yourself and Alvin ward. You guys had an interesting nickname. You guys were called United Nations offensive line. Talk about how you guys got that nickname and how that came about. Well, I you got a Cuban guy in one we got a Canadian guy and he and Alvin Ward was an African American from Chicago. Paul Berta, Sally's an Italian American and I was an Irish American. And so we just sort of became known as the melting pot. And, you know, for, to me for an offensive line to be successful, you've got to have five guys that are on the same page. I mean, unlike any other positions in football, everybody's got to work together. But if those five guys don't work together, and so we had sort of been through the battles together, I'm still friends with every one of those guys today in group group chat. As a matter of fact, there's a group chat going on because Ed Davis who was one of my backups, his daughters are starting softball player at Florida State. So all of a sudden now we've got all these canes guys cheering for Florida State although they lost last night, so we got to come through the loser's bracket now. Oh, wow. Okay, so you you were part of the United Nations offensive line now. For the first couple years, your as you mentioned before you were getting your brains beaten by Jim Burt. But now is your time to shine 1983 comes you become the starting right tackle. And the major focus of the media is who's going to be the quarterback Jim Kelly had just left. All of a sudden you have a three way competition between Bernie cozaar, Vinny Testaverde and Kyle Vander When did you guys know that Bernie was had what it took to be the starter? Probably in hindsight, I mean, you know, look, the problem is the eye test. Bernie didn't pass, right. I mean, Vinnie six, five, chiseled, he was like 235 and Bernie was tall and gangly. But But you saw he had a grasp for the game. And again, to Howard's credit, Howard sod. And once Howard sort of said, Here's your guy, then he was our guy. I mean, you know, it wouldn't have mattered to us, but But yeah, Bernie had that quality of understanding the game and really just being a leader. And it's not to say that Kyle had more experience at the time, Vinny had more athletic skills. Obviously, you saw that really go on to shine in his time. But again, I think it was when you look at the plan when Howard sort of anointed Barney as the one then then that was it. I mean, nobody was gonna question the coach. Now, the 1983 season, you guys start out with a freshman quarterback, Bernie cozaar. You guys were unranked to start the year, you go up to Gainesville, and you get your brains beat in by the Gators. 28 to three, and everybody's wondering what's is this team? Is this team any good? What How did what happened after that Florida game? How did you guys turn it around? Well, what happened after that Florida game was was going into that Florida game, we were going through three days, which came have two days anymore. I mean, that was just just really going through it. And so when we lost to Florida, we came back and thought, that's it. Like I mean, they're going to, they're going to run us they're going to beat us, you know. And across the board, everything was positive. Okay, and we turned the ball over four or five times, Bernie threw for close to 300 yards, but, but all they did was take the positive of that. And so there was no negativity that came up game, it was more like look at these things we did and if we do these things, and so it was a total different message than we anticipated as players. And we thought, okay, you know, we had three days going into this, like, we just may never, never leave the practice field, we'll practice 24 seven. And instead, it was a very positive attitude, build on all of the things you could take out of that. And then it just started from there. Each game you sort of saw the momentum build as the season went on. From an outsider's point of view. I always felt like your team kind of turned it around with the Notre Dame game. That was the turning point to me. Anyway, as an outsider looking in. I remember you guys played Notre Dame on primetime game. CBS, I think it was and you guys shout them out. 20 to nothing, I think it was. What what game to you? Did you think you guys kind of turned the corner a little bit? Well, that that was clearly pivotal because that was a national spotlight game. I mean, I think, you know, the, the corners were turning as it went on. And we had some big wins. But this was the national stage. And this was a chance, you know, Notre Dame's Notre Dame. And this was the chance to really make a change. And so I think that's the one. We've sort of been creeping up in the rankings and whatnot. But but that's the one that people all of a sudden went, Oh, wait a minute, you know, these guys can play. Right and you guys kept just winning and winning week after week. I think the West Virginia game you another rank team, you beat them but they You had a couple of close calls at the end against East Carolina. They almost beat you. Little East Carolina and then then Florida State was a game you had to win. Pull it out with the last second field goal. Yeah, it was it was. East Carolina was a better team than a lot of people thought. And and yeah, that Ernest byner was on that team. Yeah, that was that was, that was a very, very close game. And again, credit to Bernie. I mean, big pass at the end, you know, and our coaching staff for seeing what needed to get done. And then, you know, Florida State, it doesn't matter. I mean, you know, if their own Tanner were Oh, and Tanner, they're both 10. And, oh, that game is going to be a tough one. I always give Jeff Davis a hard time because Fli was our kicker, you know, and he gets a lot of accolades for winning the game, except he missed two before. Okay, so we're in the whole thing. Forget it. Don't bring the kicker in, just let us run this in you know, which, which is why we don't get to make decisions. But you know, give him a hard time afterwards, I go, Hey, you got one for three. Now you're the hero, but he was the hero in that game. Wow. So you guys run the table. Now all of a sudden, you're invited to the Orange Bowl classic. And you're going to face the number one, not just the number one team in the country, a team that people were saying at the time, was the greatest team of all time, that Nebraska had the Heisman winner, they had the Outland winner, they had the first pick of the draft Irving fryer, and they have one of the great option quarterbacks of all time turner Gill, were you guys at all intimidated going into that game? Not at all. And again, you know, I'm going to sound like a broken record. But it goes back to coach schnellenberger and and Coach schnellenberger orchestrated everything leading up to that game of, of what we were to say. And we were just to praise Nebraska, tell them we're humbled to be out there hope we don't embarrass ourselves on the field, and to buy into all of the hype about them. To the extent My oldest brother, who was my biggest fan, you know, I had a beer with him the night or two before the game, he came out the hotel we were at. And he's like, do you guys have a chance and I laughed, and said, have a chance to so we're gonna beat these guys. Because the way it was all painted was to let let them believe that they are the greatest team and everything else. But from the get go. We had schemed and everything else and knew they hadn't seen a passing game like ours, they hadn't seen speed like ours. And our defense was was tenacious. And so you know, you look at what the defense did in that game and and how they kept coming up. The stop that they need, it was it was unbelievable. But yeah, at least for the guys in that locker room, there was never a doubt that we were going to win that game. But you guys, you guys came out like gangbusters, you jumped out to a 17 to nothing lead, then all of a sudden, they hit you with that fumble brewski. And the momentum started to shift around to their side a little a little bit. But the thing is, if you were on the sideline, our defense was actually fired up, that they had to run it. Here's the greatest offense, okay, in college football, and they got to run a trick play to get their first score. So they were mad that they gave him the trick play and and our coaches had talked to him about it. And we knew about that plan everything else but but our defense actually came off the field, like really, that's what they've got to do. And then, you know, look team like that. They got some momentum going. And you know, they're tough to stop. Bernie cozaar said something interesting. And Billy Corbin documentary, The you, he said that. One of the weaknesses of the Nebraska team was their defense was quote, unquote, prehistoric. And never see, they'd always played against option teams in the big eight and they never really played against a pro style passing attack. And you guys really took it to them the whole game. If Nebraska converts that two point conversion, there was still 48 seconds left on the clock. A lot of people forget, forget about that. And Bernie and I have talked about that a lot. You know, because they think oh, that's the end of the game. No, we had and I think we had two timeouts. So that game was was far from over. And Bernie was already plotting on the sideline, getting us ready to go, you know, when it gets bad in a way. And you know, thank god Kenny, did what he did, but, you know, if we had to get we still had a shot. I think what a lot of people don't understand is you guys win the game. And people automatically assume Well, they're the national champions, but a lot of things had to go your way the number two, you guys were actually number five going into that game. The number two team Texas lost in the Cotton Bowl. The number three team Auburn, barely got by Michigan and the number 14, Illinois got destroyed in the Rose Bowl. So everything had a line up perfectly for you guys to get the national championship 100%. But But the beauty of that day, and again, it's sort of the magic of this city and maybe the magic of the orange ball. We were the last game. So those things were occurring. While we're at the hotel getting ready for the game. We've got headphones on You see, sort of the dominoes fall, so that by the time we tee that up, we know we got a shot at being national champs if we beat Nebraska. Right. And you guys, you guys win the national championship, you accomplish the dream that Howard's sold you on when you were coming out of high school. Mission accomplished. Now schnellenberger announces that he's going to leave and take an USFL job, how did you find out that schnellenberger was leaving. He had he had called a team meeting at that point, and you got to remember that the timing of it was odd because we went through spring practice with him. Okay, so, you know, we were, you know, it was start of summer for a few months off and, and, and it was, it was a financial decision that that he made what he felt was best for his family. And, you know, you, you have to understand that. And then incomes Jimmie Johnson, an unknown from Oklahoma State. He shows up and there's there's a little bit of a tension between him and he had to he had to inherit Howard's staff. Jimmy kept the offense going the way it was. But though because Jimmy had a defensive background, there was a little bit of tension between him and say, guys, like Tom Oliver Dotty and Bill trout, Alva Dotty ended up leaving. Talk about what your first impressions of Jimmie Johnson and the change to the Johnson style of coaching. It was an interesting transition and you sort of hit on it. Okay. So Jimmy was hamstrung in that. Because it was after spring, they came in, and I think he was told you can't fire anybody. But you know, people on that staff wanted the position. And so when Tom Oliver that he doesn't get it, he leaves so you lose your coordinator. The offensive staff stayed intact. And so if you look offensively that year, I mean, we're still in the record books in a lot of things. But obviously, you had a huge shake up in the defense, and it took a while Jimmy is a totally different style of coach than Howard was. And so I look at that program in the in the Miami program and going through different head coaches going through different abs, everything, that's a formula. an anti success formula is amazing, because they won in spite of it, you know, and so Jimmy, you know, year two, puts his mark on it, and you look at what he does, and then Dennis comes in and what he did, and all of those things, you know, the most successful programs are continuity of having people there forever. So it was an adjustment to Jimmy cuz it was just it was a different style of coaching. I mean, you know, Howard was old school Bear Bryant, you know, Jimmy was a more modern psychology type guy like an Urban Meyer and that type set, you know, and a motivator in that end of things, you know, not necessarily an overall X's and O's guys Howard on the X's and O's, you know, knew everything. But Jimmy was a phenomenal coach in his own right. And obviously, I got theirs look back at what he did. I look at that 1984 season, you guys played an insanely difficult schedule. You start out with number one, Auburn, then you play in Florida in Tampa, you beat both of them, and it looks like Wow, you guys might repeat again and then all of a sudden, you hit a buzzsaw at Michigan, but it was just and then you get all the way to the end. And you have the Maryland game the the the Boston College game. Talk about that roller coaster season of going from the extreme highs, extreme lows. I mean, it was a tough year because like I said our offense was was really firing on all cylinders. We started out I mean, we had three games in the first 11 days. But jack going up and playing Auburn and Bo Jackson in that and doing well. Michigan was just a stumble with a bunch of turnovers and Glen Dennison are starting to or Willie Smith are starting tight end was out. And it was tough. But But yeah, the end of the season was was extraordinarily tough. Thank god there's been a few games since then. But you know, the Maryland game for the longest time and that was Frank Reich. You know who was the quarterback there who's who's gone on and had other comebacks and is now coaching in the NFL. You know, we were up 31 nothing halftime, you lose 40 to 40 So, last three games were up 31 nothing halftime, we lose 40 to 40 we lose to Boston College 4745. And we lose to UCLA 3937. So you're scoring 4045 and 37. And you go and three of those games. So it was a little frustrating. Yeah. When you get down to the end of that season, there was a lot of heat on Jimmy. And was there any thoughts that was Jimmy going to make it in the future? Were there any doubts about Jimmy at that point? I don't think so. I mean, and again, I was I was out at that point, you know, and and and done, but Don't think so. I mean, you've got to give people some time to come in. And really, he hadn't had a spring with us. I mean, so this is a guy who's got a few weeks of fall camp, and putting a team together with a staff. That doesn't really want to be there, some of them. And so the fact that we got through and did as well, as we did, is a credit to Jimmy and then you look at what Jimmy did from there. It's just tremendous. Yeah. And your career obviously ended after the 84 season, and you go on to get drafted by the Kansas City Chiefs in the seventh round. Talk about that experience of, of going into an NFL training camp. And what was that like? Well, here's, here's the interesting footnote on that. JOHN McAfee, who was the head coach at Wake Forest. He recruited you recruited me to Wake Forest, I opted not to go there was a head coach Kansas City when I got drafted. So I guess he got to spray back when he finally released me, but it was it was a it's a whole different transition. I mean, we came out of a very successful program, and we're prepared in that regard. But just the the level and ability, you know, you go from having, you know, a handful of great guys on both sides to everyone, you know, 22 deep on both sides are all all Americans and tremendous athletes. And, but it was it was a great experience. And you you kind of bounced around a few NFL camps, but you, you kind of hooked on with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1987. You were a member, actually of their replacement team during the 1987 players strike. Talk about what it was like being a replacement player. And did you guys face any animosity from the players that were picketing? Yeah, it was, it was a difficult decision. Um, you know, I mean, up until that point, yeah, I, as I tell people, I was hard knocks before they filmed it. You know, I got a lot of, you know, coach wants to say, See and bring your playbook in Detroit, it was down to literally the final cut. They kept an offensive lineman who had played for Darryl Rogers at Arizona State and things like that. But it was a tough decision. And actually, Marc trestman, who was a coach at Miami when I was there had called me and said, Look, you know, you've been training this hard and trying to maintain, you know, why wouldn't you because I didn't want to go play at first. And this is an opportunity and there was some pushback from players out there. But it was, you know, it's a tough, tough situation. You know, but it was still an opportunity to try and go play in the NFL. And you after your after your playing career. You got your law degree ran you also dabbled in broadcasting you did you were the radio color commentator along with sunny Hirsch, on the hurricane broadcast in the 1990s I believe I talked about that. Well, listen, working with with was sunny. I mean, the the true voice of the Miami Hurricanes was just a joy. my undergrad degree was in communications. And after having packed my stuff in my car and moved from city to city with NFL teams, I sort of came to the realization that if I was going to get into radio or TV, generally you got to go Market to Market I mean, you don't normally stay in progress in a market you started a smaller market. And that's why I decided to go to law school and then an opportunity opened up where they were looking for play by play people Josie gakki actually got seriously hurt in a in a plane accident. And so I saw the opportunity so what they just want somebody to do football. So we did a live audition during while a dummy audition during a dolphin game. One of getting the part and working with sunny was was one of the most joyous experiences I could ever had. I mean, one of the greatest ambassadors for college football and the EU, and for the radio industry, Sunny, new everybody. Everybody loves sunny and just an absolute joy. And, you know, I was practicing law, what better hobby to have? You know, in other words, I was gonna go to the games, drink beer and talk to my friends about the game. You want to put a microphone in front of me? Why not? Well, let's talk about more about that what you're doing now you're obviously a personal injury attorney from a from an attorney's point of view. How do you view the game of football and, and in terms of personal injury? Do you feel that the game is safe to play for high school, college and even Pop Warner kids now? I do. I think and And the important thing is these issues have been pushed to the forefront. And and I think that's predominantly concussion. Okay. Other injuries and everyone's but really, really I think the primary concern and focus is concussion and because it's in the forefront, I think and they're addressing it. Yeah, it's it's got inherent risk in the game. I also think it's it's the greatest sport you can play and it's the greatest team sport. There's so much you can learn and build from so I am an advocate of football, but with the appropriate training with the appropriate instruction, I mean, I laugh about not having three days and all of that. But it is important that the medical end of things monitor things that kids don't play hurt, you know, some of that philosophy of, you know, suck it up, rub dirt on it, you'll be fine, you know, has changed. And and I think really the concussion and having concussion protocol, and recognizing it early and protecting players is critical. And so the fact that that's a discussion with the equipment changes and everything else. I am an advocate as for Are there any lessons that you bring from your days as a football player to what you do today as an attorney every day? I mean, it's, it's, I like and, and one of the things when I got into law school, because I got on the trial teams. You really can analogize it to sports. I mean, you know, Game Day is that trial, but but that trials not gonna go well, if you don't put in all of the work to get it ready for trial. And that's the training camp. And that's the two days and that's you know, and so really, that's the approach with everything is Yeah, it's nice. And, you know, we all want to be on the stage at the end. But but it's the work you got to put in and that's the one thing you have 100% control over is how hard you're going to work now for for those who don't know, David has a show on this channel. Talk about the name of that show and how it came about? Well, it's it's a it's a quote from Shakespeare, the line was first off, let's kill all the lawyers. And and it gets misquoted here and there and everything else. But you know, a lot of people think about that. And so well, that's, that's a good start. Bottom line is lawyers until you need one aren't generally well liked. Okay, and I get it, you know, I'm, I've been doing this for 30 years, I don't have a billboard, I don't have things out there, you know, telling you how great I am. But you're barraged with it. And so I think there's a certain image that people have, particularly with personal injury lawyers, and so the thought was, let's have a show, let's bring on other local lawyers in different areas, and maybe one by one, we can take some of those lawyers off that list, and and educate some people on these type of things that lawyers do. And that lawyers, these are, you know, these are the people that, you know, are my friends that I work with and other areas that I work with. Now, lastly, you're also a member of the Orange Bowl committee and have been for the last 10 years. Yes, right. Yep. Talk about some of the things that you do with the Orange Bowl committee. Well, I've been fortunate now I was on the board of directors for a while. I got nominated and elevated. I'm Secretary now. So I'm sort of their chief legal officer on the executive committee, so we see the workings of it. And it's, it's fascinating one, it's fascinating to see what the Orange Bowl committee really is. And it's so much more than just a game. I mean, what we do for the community, we build projects within the community. And it's really our big push is is to be an integral part of the South Florida community. And and by supporting that community. Yes, we put on a game and yes, we want to do all those things. So just it's a tremendous organization is it's a joy to serve on and then and then look, I love college athletics. So you know, to be able to spend a week with a team that comes down and get to know the coaches and get to go out and watch practice and and assist them to make sure that they're having the best experience they can in South Florida. It's a joy but but the charitable end of the orange ball committee is is something I'm really, really proud of. Oh, Dave, thanks for joining us, your very first guest and it's really a pleasure to have you here on our show. My pleasure. I appreciate you having and yeah, talking about the Orange Bowl. That's an easy thing to do. Thanks. Thanks. Got it. Thanks. I'm Jay Rao. To go see Orangeville on mine is community newspapers. See you again soon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mOQGXBQ6Ks