Get Rich Education

Real Estate Investing with Keith Weinhold

This show has created more financial freedom for busy people like you than nearly any show in the world. Wealthy people's money either starts out or ends up in real estate. But you can't lose your time. Without being a landlord or flipper, you learn about strategic passive real estate investing to create wealth for yourself. I'm show host Keith Weinhold. I also serve on the Forbes Real Estate Council and write for Forbes. I serve you ACTIONABLE content for cash flow on a platter. Our bottom line in real estate investing together is: “What’s your Return On Time?” Where traditional personal finance merely helps you avoid losing, you learn how to WIN. Why live below your means when you can grow your means? Since 2002, international real estate investor Keith Weinhold owns multifamily apartment buildings to single family homes to agricultural real estate. New episodes are delivered every Monday. read less
BusinessBusiness

Episodes

489: Strategic Loan Options for Real Estate Investors, Mortgage Rate Forecast
6d ago
489: Strategic Loan Options for Real Estate Investors, Mortgage Rate Forecast
You’ll get an exact mortgage rate prediction from the President of the lending company that’s provided investors with more financial freedom than anyone in the nation.  Learn how to best access your equity, yet keep your low mortgage rate first loan untouched. In this Get Rich Education podcast episode, host Keith Weinhold and guest Caeli Ridge, President of Ridge Lending Group, delve into the direction of mortgage rates.  They highlight the importance of understanding today’s environment and discuss refinancing opportunities in the current market.  Caeli outlines various loan products available to investors and predicts over 50% of appraisals now come in high, indicating strong future valuations.  She also forecasts higher mortgage rates to persist, with a possible Fed Funds Rate reduction by June and a 6.125% rate for 30-year fixed mortgages, non-OO, with 25% down, by the end of 2024.  The episode emphasizes education and strategic planning in real estate investment. I get my own loans at Ridge. You can too at RidgeLendingGroup.com Timestamps: The impact of inflation on real estate investing (00:00:00) Discusses leveraging properties to increase wealth, the relationship between mortgage rates and real estate, and the impact of inflation on property values. Understanding the importance of mortgage rates (00:03:52) Explores the neutral relationship real estate investors have with mortgage rates, the impact of mortgage rates on home affordability, and the significance of current mortgage rates. Historical perspective on home price affordability (00:06:18) Provides insights into the historical trends in home affordability, comparing past and current median home prices and the impact of inflation on home values. The power of leverage in borrowing (00:10:14) Illustrates the impact of inflation on loan principal balances and monthly mortgage payments, emphasizing the benefits of optimizing borrowing. Mortgage rate prediction and refinancing trends (00:16:57) Discusses the future direction of mortgage rates, refinancing trends, and the importance of considering interest rates in the context of overall investment strategies. Explanation of high points charged on investment property loans (00:23:12) Provides an explanation for the high points charged on investment property loans, related to the servicing of mortgage-backed securities and the absence of prepayment penalties. Accessing Equity with HELOC and HE Loan (00:24:21) Discussion on accessing equity using keylock and HE loan, including LTV ratios and interest rate comparisons. Trade-offs Between HELOC and HE Loan (00:25:27) Comparison of trade-offs between keylock and HE loan, including flexibility and interest payment structures. Considerations for Second Mortgages (00:26:36) Exploration of the benefits of having a second mortgage as an option and the potential drawbacks related to minimum draw requirements. Blended Mortgage Rates (00:27:56) Explanation of how to calculate blended mortgage rates based on the balances and interest rates of first and second mortgages. Appetite for Adjustable Rate Mortgages (00:28:44) Assessment of the current environment for adjustable rate mortgages and comparison with fixed-rate mortgages. Obstacles for New and Repeat Investors (00:29:45) Common obstacles faced by new and repeat real estate investors, including understanding investment goals and managing debt-to-income ratios. Forecast for Mortgage Rates (00:33:45) Prediction for future mortgage rates based on inflation indicators and the potential impact of the Fed's decisions. Loan Types Offered by Ridge Lending Group (00:35:54) Overview of the various loan types offered by Ridge Lending Group, including Fannie and Freddie loans, non-QM loans, and commercial loans. Resources and Tools for Investors (00:38:03) Information about free resources and tools available on the Ridge Lending Group website, including simulators and educational content. Conclusion and Recommendation (00:39:38) Summary of the discussion with Caeli Ridge and a recommendation to explore the services offered by Ridge Lending Group for real estate financing needs. Resources mentioned: Show Page: GetRichEducation.com/489 Ridge Lending Group: RidgeLendingGroup.com Call 855-74-RIDGE For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Keith Weinhold (00:00:00) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. A new take on how to profit from inflation. The best strategies for accessing equity from your property while leaving your low rate loan in place. A surprising trend with real estate appraisals. Then the president of one of the most prominent national mortgage companies joins me to give a firm mortgage rate prediction today on get rich education. If you like the Get Rich Education podcast, you're going to love our Don't Quit Your Daydream newsletter. No, a eye here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free sign up egg get rich education.com/letter. It's real content that makes a real difference in your life. Spice with a dash of humor rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting GRE to 66866. Text GRE to 66866.   Speaker 2 (00:01:11) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.   Speaker 2 (00:01:18) - This is Get Rich Education.   Keith Weinhold (00:01:27) - Welcome to Gary from Oak Park Heights, Minneapolis, to Crown Heights, Brooklyn in New York City and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and this is Get Rich education. When you have that epiphany, that leverage creates wealth, it can be enough to make you want to be the town iconoclast. Walk around, beat your chest, and boldly proclaim that financially free beats debt free. You might remember that I helped drive that point home a few weeks ago when I talked about the old fourplex owner, Patrick, who owned his fourplex next to mine years ago. He wanted to pay his down and I wanted to leverage mine up. I told you then that rushing to pay off one property by making extra payments on the principal is like drilling a deep hole into one property. And the deeper you drill, the more likely that hole is to cave in. Your return goes down and now you've got more of your prosperity tied up in just one property, just one neighborhood and just one market.   Keith Weinhold (00:02:34) - The most sure fire way to wealth, and exactly what wealthy people do, is optimize and almost maximize the number of properties that you own. And as long as you buy right as they inevitably inflate, just keep borrowing against them. And that way you never have to pay capital gains tax either. And that goes beyond just real estate. That's assets of many types. You'll want to own more assets. The way to do that is with more loans. And paradoxically, that is why the richest people have the most debt. As you watch your debt column grow, watch your column grow even faster. And as we're talking about mortgages and the direction of interest rates today, us as real estate investors, you and I, we have a somewhat neutral relationship with mortgage rates. Yeah, it's often a neutral relationship. Now, prospective homebuyers, they often want mortgage rates to be low. Sellers often want rates to be low two so that they'll have more home bidders, legacy landlords, ones that own a bunch of property and they're not buying anymore.   Keith Weinhold (00:03:52) - They often want mortgage rates to be high because it hurts first time homebuyer affordability, and then it keeps the rents high and it keeps the occupancy high. And then you and I see we both own real estate. We also look to opportunistically put more in our portfolio. Well then we want rates to be high in a sense and low in a sense too. So you might have relative neutrality, feeling aloof about it all because you're thinking about it from both sides. But in any case, we can always predict the future. But the one thing that you know for sure is what you have now. A lot of people don't optimize their potential for what they have now. Instead, they speculate about the future. Now, one thing a lot of people have now is so many Americans are still loving their 3% and 4% mortgage rates they locked in 2 or 3 years ago, and they're refusing to give it up. However, over the past two years, when the number of real estate listings were at historic lows, a lot of life changing events have occurred in the past two years 7 million newborn babies with a need for a larger sized home and a desire to get out of the starter home.   Keith Weinhold (00:05:11) - Also in the last two years, 3 million marriages, including some of those marriages, are among older couples who now need to sell a home that can help solve the market. And then, of course, most home sellers. They also become home buyers. Next, they need another place to live. So home sellers, they often don't add a net one to the supply. We had a million and a half divorces, 7 million Americans turning 65 years old that might want to trade down during the retirement years and also during the last two years. Consider that there were 4 million deaths and 50 million job changes, some of those inconsequential, while others with fundamentally changed commuting patterns. So the point here is that life moves on. For some, though still a minority, but a growing minority, it is time to give up the three and 4% mortgage rate. Still not enough of them, but for better or worse, that is what it's going to take to move this market and put some available supply out there.   Keith Weinhold (00:06:18) - Now, today we have apparently finally just come off this period where home price of. Affordability had hit 40 year lows for 40 years for decades. Again, with low affordability, you dislike that if you're a home buyer or seller, you might feel neutral about low affordability as a landlord or a real estate investor because it makes your new purchases less affordable. But it keeps your renters as renters when you buy that income property. From an affordability standpoint, the very best time to buy was 2013. Yep, 2013 is when prices hadn't fully recovered from the GFC and mortgage rates had fallen dramatically. Now, to open up that range in years, from an affordability standpoint, it was just a sensational time to buy a home or property from 2009 to 2021, just historically extraordinary, that sensational affordability level during that decade or so, 2009 to 2021, that added to the exceptional rise in home values over end since that time. But yeah, a few months ago, affordability reached its worst level in 40 years and it has since improved.   Keith Weinhold (00:07:43) - I mean, 40 year lows in affordability reach then in 1984 and what happened in 1984, that is when Ronald Reagan defeated Walter Mondale for his second presidential term. Steve Jobs launched the Macintosh personal computer. John Schnatter opened the first Papa John's store in Indiana. LeBron James was born in 1984, and on television running were The Cosby Show and The Dukes of Hazzard. Hey, if you were alive then and you watch those shows, um, I know you wouldn't confess to watching Charles in Charge back then, and you'll never get back those socially redeeming hours that you spent watching Punky Brewster, and you would not admit to doing that either. What is this show, the Jeffersons still on TV in 1984? Look into that. Yeah. You know, that was kind of a real estate ish show. The deluxe apartment in the sky. Yes. It was on then. Yeah. Sherman Hemsley, Isabel Sanford Q that up.   Speaker UU (00:08:55) - Where we're moving on now? All up to this island, to a deluxe apartment in the sky.   Keith Weinhold (00:09:06) - Yeah, they even had the episode where the landlord came over and threatened not to renew their lease. I'll tell you. Has there ever been a television show in history where the landlord was depicted as a good guy? I mean, a landlord in television, they're always cast is a money hungry bad guy that won't fix anything, or is just trying to unscrupulously kick out the tenant, a slack jawed slumlord, every single time. I never really understood that show's theme music, either Beans or Burden on the grill or something. Let's get back to mortgage loans. Understand this. It might be in a way that, okay, you've never thought about it before. It's the power of leverage in borrowing. Now, you probably won't hold any 30 year fixed rate loan all 30 years in reality, but they'll make this effect clear. Let's just act like you have done this on a property. Now the median home price is near 400 K today. But what was it not 40 years ago, but in this case 30 years ago? All right.   Keith Weinhold (00:10:14) - So 1994, per the Fred numbers, which are sourced from the census and HUD, it was 130 K. Yes, a 130 K median priced home in 1994. So then if you put a 20% down payment on that property, you'd have a loan principal balance of 104 K. Now imagine it was an interest only loan somehow, and you still just owed a 104 K balance on that home today, whose median price is up to 400 K. Well, that 104 K. That just seems like a little math that you could almost swat away. I mean, this is how inflation makes the numbers of yesteryear feel tiny. But now if you're 104 K loan were an amortizing loan and the principal were being paid down to hopefully all principal pay down made by the tenant. During all those years, mortgage rates were 9% back then. So if you were making the final payment today on what's now still a median priced home, today your mortgage payment would just be 837 bucks a month. It feels like nothing. Inflation benefited you both ways on the total principal balance and the monthly payment.   Keith Weinhold (00:11:35) - Just feeling lighter and lighter and lighter in inflation adjusted terms now. And if your mortgage rate were 6% on that property, your payment would only be 623 bucks. You might have refinanced to something like that. I mean, 623 bucks. That is lower than the average new car payment today of 726. But if you had not gotten that loan back in 1994 and instead would have paid all cash for the 130 K property, were you 130 K all cash that was put into the property back then? Well, that would have had the purchasing power of today's approximately 400 K reflected in the price of today's median priced home. But to take it back ten years further to 1984, the George Jefferson year, the median home price was 80 K and your loan would be 60 4k. I mean, these numbers feel like little toys or almost lunch money or something. So this is the power of optimizing your borrowing and perhaps but not quite maximizing your borrowing power because that does risk over leverage. That is the inflation profiting benefit that you're feeling right there.   Keith Weinhold (00:12:59) - Coming up in just a few minutes, the president of one of the most prominent national mortgage companies for investor loans will be here with me. We're going to talk about mortgage rates some more, the overall temperature of the mortgage market. And I expect that she'll give a firm mortgage rate prediction for where we're going to be at year end, because she's done that with us before. They see so many investor loans in there at their lending companies. They've really got a great pulse on the market. We have set up the makeshift gray studio again for yet another week. Here is this week I'm in Nevada, where I will be the best man at my brother's wedding. I have been on the road a lot lately. That's what a geography guy like me does. Gotta get out and see the world. Life is meant to be lived, not postpone. Before we discuss both general and some intermediate Murray's concepts shortly. If you happen to be new to real estate investing. And you just like to listen to that one episode that tells you, step by step, how to get started and how to build your credit score and make an offer on a property, and best navigate the inspection process and the property appraisal inside the management agreement and more.   Keith Weinhold (00:14:15) - You can find that on get Rich Education podcast episode 368. It's simply called How to Buy Your First Rental Property. More next. I'm Keith Reinhold, you're listening to get Rich education. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation.   Keith Weinhold (00:15:24) - If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, 686, six. Role under the specific expert with income property, you need Ridge Lending Group and MLS for 256. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge. Personally, though, even customized plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending group.com. Ridge lending group.com.   Speaker 3 (00:16:12) - Hi, this is Tom Hopkins, and I can't tell you how smart you are to be with get rich education and make these ideas you.   Keith Weinhold (00:16:32) - What is the future direction of mortgage rates? How do you qualify for more mortgage loans at the best terms with the lowest interest rates, and Americans have at near record equity levels in their properties? So what's the best way to access that equity yet? Keep your low rate mortgage in place. We're answering all of that today with a company president that's created more financial freedom through real estate than any other lender in the entire nation.   Keith Weinhold (00:16:57) - That is, the top tier and eponymous ridge lending group is time for a big welcome back to Charlie Ridge. Keith, you flatter me. Thank you very much.   Caeli Ridge (00:17:07) - I'm very happy to be here, sir. Good to see you.   Keith Weinhold (00:17:09) - Well, you help us here because debt and loan are our favored four letter words around here at gray. Can you help us efficiently optimize them both, Charlie? Interest rates have just been on so many people's minds. Shortly after, they had their all time low in January of 2021, and they since rose and then have settled down. Charlie, I've been trying to think through myself why people seem to put this over emphasis on the interest rate now. It's surely important. It is your cost of money. But the way I've thought that people overemphasize the rate is because maybe people love to discuss the direction of interest rates, even more so than real estate prices in rents is because prices and rents nearly always go up in interest rates can go up and down. So therefore it's maybe more interesting for people to talk about.   Keith Weinhold (00:17:57) - I also think about how rates sort of tap into that human fear of loss by paying interest, trumping the triumph of gain through cash flow or appreciation. And then maybe as well, it's because higher mortgage rates, they mean higher rates of all types which permeate into all of one's life's debt. So these are my thoughts about why people maybe put an over emphasis on mortgage interest rates. What are your thoughts?   Caeli Ridge (00:18:23) - I'm sure there's probably something to that. And you're right, Keith. Interest rates are always the hot topic. Everybody wants to talk about interest rates. I think that overall though, it is a lack of education and there's a psychology to it. You and I have talked about interest rates at nauseam over the years, and I do understand, but I think you and I agree, because we live in this space and we're constantly looking at the math. They are probably third or fourth on the list of priorities. When you're deciding on if this investment is valid. For fitting into my goal box, I think it's more about getting information out there and informing the masses about interest rates, and doing that math to make sure that they're not just pigeonholing themselves into keeping a 3% interest rate, or not expanding their portfolio because they're afraid of giving up what they have and not really realizing the power of the equity, the tax deduction, the rent increases.   Caeli Ridge (00:19:15) - All of those variables are often ignored when people start talking about interest rates, until you start to have that reasonable, rational conversation that helps them identify what the math is. Because the math won't lie, right? The math will not lie.   Keith Weinhold (00:19:29) - Yeah, that's right. Things more important than interest rate with an investment property might be the price you're paying for that property, or the level of rent that's there, or even maybe knowing you already have a good property manager that you trust in that market where that property is. But of course, rates matter somewhat. Now we're going to get a future looking prediction from you later. But your last mortgage rate prediction, Charlie, you may not remember the details of it. It was made here on the show in November of 2022. That's when rates were 7%. Back at that time, you said that rates should keep climbing but at a slower pace, and that happened. And you predicted the peak by spring of 2023 of 7.625%. What happened is in October of 2023, they hit 7.8% per Freddie Mac.   Keith Weinhold (00:20:17) - So you almost completely nailed it because most everyone believes that that was the peak for this cycle. And if so, you're within a few months in just 2/10 of 1% of identifying the peak.   Caeli Ridge (00:20:32) - Thank you Keith. I appreciate that acknowledgement. I get it right a lot. My crystal ball has been broken several times over, especially the last couple of years, so I'll want to acknowledge that too. I pay attention to the fed and as a good friend of mine is always saying, don't fight the fed if you are listening to what they're saying, actually listening to the words that are coming out of their mouths, it's not too terribly hard to kind of predict where we're going to be in certain milestones of any given year. So I do have a good prediction for this year. We'll share later. As you said, rates are not completely irrelevant. I just want to impress upon your listeners that they really should be looking at the investment holistically, and not just laser focused on that interest rate. There's more to it.   Keith Weinhold (00:21:15) - That was excellent. You have more audacity than me when it comes to predicting interest rates. It's a business I typically stay out of, so I'm going to outsource that to you later. I'll predict things like real estate prices, but I think rates are notoriously difficult. And what's happened with rates now that they have come off their peak substantially from back in October of 2023. What's happened with the refinance business, is that something that's picked up again there?   Caeli Ridge (00:21:39) - Yeah, we're starting to see a bit more. I would say that last year refi numbers were down right for obvious reasons. But we are seeing some more business in the refinance department. I think depending on the individual and largely the strategy of the investment, the long term versus the mid-term versus the short term, we're seeing a little bit more on the refi side for the short term rentals than we are in the long term. But overall, yes, I would agree that they're starting to pick up. I may mention to Keith it might be useful for the listeners.   Caeli Ridge (00:22:06) - So while I agree, we've seen that interest rates started on their descent, which was great news, everybody was excited to see that. We're still finding that the points that are being secured or paid on, especially investment property loans, are still on the high end of the spectrum. And for those that aren't aware of the why behind that, how might be important. Just to mention that when we talk about mortgage backed securities, the overall servicing of these mortgage backed securities that are bought and sold and traded on on the secondary markets, they're pretty smart in forecasting when rates are high, what happens to those mortgages? When they come back down, they start to refinance, right? They start to pay off. And the servicing rights of these loans take 2 to 3 years before they're even profitable. So the servicers and the secondary markets know that they have to charge those extra points to hedge their losses, because when the loans that they're paying for and servicing today are going to pay off in six months or 12 months, they're going to be at a loss.   Caeli Ridge (00:23:01) - If it takes them 24 to 36 months to be profitable. That's why investors are seeing especially investors are seeing extra points being charged on the loans that they're securing today.   Keith Weinhold (00:23:12) - Oh, that's a great explanation. And really, this is because there's no prepayment penalty associated with residential mortgage loans in the United States typically. So therefore, the person that's on the back end of these loans, the investor there needs to be sure that they're compensated somehow when one goes ahead and maybe refinances out of their loan at a presumably lower interest rate, maybe in as little as 12 months or so.   Caeli Ridge (00:23:39) - Yes, sir. Exactly right. Yeah. And prepayment penalties on conventional. There are no prepayment penalties on conventional. Just to clarify on a non QM product which of course we have to, you know, debt service coverage ratio products etc. on non-owner occupied those typically will have prepayment penalties. But the Fannie Freddie stuff, the GSE stuff no prepay ever.   Keith Weinhold (00:23:57) - Now the rates have come down presumably off their peak in this cycle. You know, I think a lot of people wonder about all right now, what's a prudent way for me to harvest my equity since we have near-record equity levels in property and yet keep my low rate mortgage in place? I think a lot of people don't even understand that you can do that and take a second mortgage to access some of that dead equity.   Keith Weinhold (00:24:20) - What are your thoughts?   Caeli Ridge (00:24:21) - I love a keylock in general. We do now have one of our newer product lines is a second lien lock. We have two options there. Both of them cap at 70% LTV. That's combined loan to value. So all you need to do to figure out what you're going to have access to is take the value that you think the property would appraise for times 70% from that number, subtract the first lien balance, and that will give you what your line on a key lock. Secondly, and position you lock would be. And I love it.   Keith Weinhold (00:24:49) - All right. So therefore if one has 50% equity in a property they could access 20% more up to that 70% CLTV. That combined loan to value ratio between your first mortgage and your second mortgage, which might take the form of a keylock a home equity line of credit.   Caeli Ridge (00:25:07) - Perfectly said. We also have second lien he loans worth mention. He loan is really exactly the same thing as your first lien mortgage. It's a fixed rate.   Caeli Ridge (00:25:15) - Second it's just in second lean position 30 year fixed. Those go to 85% CLTV. So you get quite a bit more leverage. But the rates are going to be on the 1,213% range.   Keith Weinhold (00:25:27) - That's interesting. Tell us about some more of the trade offs between the key lock, where we typically have a fixed rate period in a floating period afterwards, and the he loan some more of those trade offs as we devise our strategy.   Caeli Ridge (00:25:41) - Yeah. The key lock is variable right. The interest rate can change. As you said. The reason I prefer the He lock, if the numbers made sense, is that you're only paying interest on monies that you're using at that point in time. So if you had $100,000 key lock and you're only using 20,000 of it for whatever investment purposes or whatever, then you're paying interest just on the 20 that he loan is exactly as you would expect. You're getting all of that money at once, and you will be paying interest on all of it, whether or not you're using it.   Caeli Ridge (00:26:10) - There's less flexibility on a key loan. While it does provide extra leverage, I do generally prefer that he lock.   Keith Weinhold (00:26:18) - Now, sometimes a question that I've asked myself in the past, Charlie, when I was new as an investor, is sort of why wouldn't I take a second mortgage? He lock or he loan? Because I don't necessarily have to draw against it, but it might be good for me to have it as an option just to be sure that it's there.   Caeli Ridge (00:26:36) - Absolutely. Especially the key lock, because like I said, I will not pay interest on anything you're not using. And to have it when the time comes, right. If you want to be prepared, which I think is huge. We both agree there. The one thing I would mention about that though, is oftentimes on the helocs there will be a minimum draw at closing. You can put it right back after closing, but chances are there's going to be a 50,000 or 100,000 minimum draw, depending on what the line limit is.   Caeli Ridge (00:27:01) - Maybe 75% of the entire limit is what the minimum draw would be. But again, you can put it right back after closing. So maybe you pay 30 days of interest on that before you're able to to stick it back in the lock. Otherwise, it's one of my favorite strategies for investors and having access to those funds when the time comes.   Keith Weinhold (00:27:20) - That's an interesting piece there. So you as an investor is you're devising your strategy as you're looking at the equity position in your own home as well as your rental properties. Maybe you're looking at a low rate of, say, you have a 4% mortgage loan, but you've had a bloated equity position, and you go ahead and you take out a second mortgage in any of the forms of Charlie is talking about. And that second mortgage has, say, a 10% interest rate. Well, you don't simply take the 4% on your first loan and your 10% on the second and average it and say, well, now I'm paying 7%. Of course, you have to wait those averages.   Keith Weinhold (00:27:56) - It's pretty likely that you have a higher mortgage balance on your first loan than your second loan. So depending on their balances, therefore, if your first mortgage has a 4% interest rate and your second mortgage has a 10% interest rate, you're blended rate might be something like five and a half.   Caeli Ridge (00:28:10) - Exactly right. And there's all kinds of tools and calculators online. If somebody wanted to check that out you can find them very easily. Just the weighted average of mortgage rates. And you can plug in your numbers. It'll tell you exactly if you're using this amount or this amount or whatever
488: Why Does Bitcoin Have Any Value?
Feb 12 2024
488: Why Does Bitcoin Have Any Value?
Learn the pros and cons of bitcoin, the world’s largest cryptocurrency. Bitcoin can be moved well across space and time. You can’t move dollars over time due to inflation; you can’t  move gold over space due to weight and security concerns. Real estate, bitcoin, and gold are all scarce and take real-world resources to produce. Bitcoin is a global digital currency that’s decentralized. Nick Giambruno joins us to discuss why bitcoin has value today.  Since there can only be 21 million bitcoin, it cannot be debased like dollars are. By April, bitcoin will experience a halving. Rather than 900 new bitcoins brought into issuance daily, there will be 450.  The SEC’s recent Spot EFT approval will give more investors bitcoin access. The higher the stock-to-flow ratio, the harder the asset.  What about governments shutting down bitcoin, regulating it, or taxing it to death? We discuss. Bitcoin price volatility is a problem in currency adoption. Lots of energy is used in bitcoin mining. But much of it is stranded energy. Bitcoin cannot produce income. Keith Weinhold stresses his preferred way to hold bitcoin. Timestamps: Bitcoin's value proposition (00:00:01) Keith Weinhold introduces the topic of Bitcoin's value and why it is relevant to a real estate show. Jamie Dimon's criticism of Bitcoin (00:05:27) JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon expresses his disdain for Bitcoin and blockchain technology in a heated conversation. Bitcoin's resistance to debasement (00:07:19) Keith Weinhold discusses the resistance of Bitcoin to debasement and the skepticism of governments and financial institutions towards it. The origin and value of Bitcoin (00:08:18) Nick Giambruno, an international investor, explains the history and value proposition of Bitcoin, emphasizing its decentralization and resistance to debasement. Bitcoin's hardness and production rate (00:14:21) Nick Giambruno delves into the concept of Bitcoin's hardness and its production requirements, comparing it to other assets like gold and real estate. Bitcoin's upcoming halving event (00:16:28) Nick Giambruno discusses the significance of Bitcoin's upcoming halving event, which will impact its stock-to-flow ratio and reinforce its value proposition. Bitcoin's scarcity (00:19:42) Bitcoin's limited supply and its unique scarcity attribute, compared to other commodities like gold. Upcoming halving event and Bitcoin ETF approval (00:20:53) Discussion on the significance of the upcoming halving event and the approval of a new spot for Bitcoin ETF, indicating the growing acceptance of Bitcoin. Bitcoin as a currency and value proposition (00:22:42) The value of Bitcoin as a currency for transferring value and its resistance to debasement, emphasizing the importance of self-custody of Bitcoin. Global adoption of Bitcoin (00:24:30) Comparison of Bitcoin adoption in different nations, highlighting the potential benefits for early adopters and the impact of Bitcoin on the world's financial landscape. Bitcoin's market potential and investment consideration (00:27:27) The potential market share of Bitcoin in the global economy and the consideration of Bitcoin as an investment asset. Government's ability to regulate Bitcoin (00:34:11) Discussion on the government's potential regulation and taxation of Bitcoin, emphasizing the power of economic incentives and Bitcoin's resilience to government intervention. Bitcoin's uniqueness and credibility (00:36:12) Differentiating Bitcoin from other cryptocurrencies, highlighting its credibility and resistance to change, making it the real innovation in the crypto space. Bitcoin as a Store of Value (00:37:55) Discussion on Bitcoin's role as a store of value and its comparison to gold. Bitcoin as an Emerging Form of Money (00:38:25) Explanation of Bitcoin as an emerging form of money and its distinction from established money like gold. Bitcoin's Transaction Network and the Lightning Network (00:39:37) Explanation of Bitcoin's transaction network, scalability, and the use of the Lightning Network for smaller transactions. Earning Income from Bitcoin (00:41:40) Discussion on earning income from Bitcoin through related companies, dividends, and caution regarding Bitcoin lending services. Bitcoin Exchanges and Custody (00:44:20) The importance of custodying your own Bitcoin and the risks associated with centralized Bitcoin exchanges. Connecting with the Guest (00:45:13) Information on how to connect with the guest and access a helpful Bitcoin guide. Bitcoin's Energy Use and Price Volatility (00:46:01) Insights into Bitcoin's energy use, price volatility, and the use of stranded energy sources by miners. Real Estate vs. Bitcoin (00:47:04) Comparison of real estate as a wealth builder with the merits and risks of owning gold and Bitcoin. Disclaimer and Conclusion (00:47:54) Disclaimer about the content and a conclusion to the episode. Resources mentioned: Show Page: GetRichEducation.com/488 More on Nick Giambruno: FinancialUnderground.com For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Why does Bitcoin have any value? And why is a real estate show dedicating one episode to this topic now? The benefits and criticisms of the world's largest cryptocurrency Bitcoin today on Get Rich Education. If you like the Get Rich Education podcast, you're going to love art. Don't quit your day. Dream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free. Sign up egg get rich education com slash letter. It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting gray to 66866. Text gray to 66866.   Corey Coates (00:01:06) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold (00:01:22) - Work degree from Quito, Ecuador, where I am today, to the Mosquito Coast, Nicaragua, and across 188 nations worldwide.   Keith Weinhold (00:01:29) - You're listening. One of the United States longest running and most less than two shows on real estate investing. I'm your host, Keith Reinhold. Yes, we're a real estate show, but with 488 episodes, it's time to focus at least one of them. Finally, on Bitcoin. We'll bring it back to US real estate next week. Now, this is for a few reasons. Today, Bitcoin is largely misunderstood. It's become so big that it's hard to ignore. And there are two recent Bitcoin events two happenings with global impact that makes now the right time to cover this. Now look, I think that it's human nature that when you learn about something new for the first time and you don't understand how it works like Bitcoin, it's sort of innate to you start criticizing it or sort of discounted in your mind, chiefly because you don't understand it. Though Bitcoin's pseudonymous creator, Satoshi Nakamoto wrote the Bitcoin paper in 2008 and the first Bitcoin was issued in 2009. And, you know, when I first heard about it sometime after that, I probably discounted it in my mind as well.   Keith Weinhold (00:02:45) - And I think most people that don't understand Bitcoin, you know, they first think something like, oh come on, what is this. Just magic internet money. How does that work? How could that have any value. And I think is one matures when encountering the unknown. They inquire rather than criticize it. Look now and I'm getting really personal here, aren't I? I don't do drugs and I never have. But I don't criticize those that do drugs because it's a world that I just don't understand at all. Last year I was having dinner with a couple. They asked me what book I'm currently reading, and I told them that it's a 350 page book about Bitcoin, and the response was laughter, sort of dismissing it. And they said, well, how could anyone write that many pages about Bitcoin just completely discounting the whole thing? Well, for me, a turning point on Bitcoin is when I found highly intelligent people that understood it well and they were excited about it and they endorsed it. Now real estate has more intrinsic value than the dollar or gold or Bitcoin.   Keith Weinhold (00:04:02) - Because real estate is essential to your survival. You can make arguments that the dollar, gold and Bitcoin all have questionable backing. But today enough people agree that the dollar, gold and Bitcoin all have value. People are agreeing all three gold, the dollar and Bitcoin have varying levels then of anthropogenic faith. Today you and I, we live in a digital world that's comprised of 195 world nations. Well then, shouldn't money be made of something that's digital and doesn't know any national borders? Think of Bitcoin's value proposition this way you cannot move dollars across time. That's due to inflation. You can't move gold across space that's due to weight and security. But consider this Bitcoin can be officially moved across both space and time. Its supply is absolutely fixed. At 21 million, there can never be more than 21 million bitcoin either. It's traded on the blockchain, which is basically a digital ledger, but not every intelligent or influential finance person believes in Bitcoin. Of course, not every one of them. For example, it gets a little heated here from last month.   Keith Weinhold (00:05:27) - This is one of the most powerful men in the world. JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon. He's getting annoyed about CNBC asking him about Bitcoin just entirely too often. What do you make of the other firms the BlackRock's of the world.   CNBC (00:05:42) - That that obviously and Larry Fink change his view of this obviously. And maybe he changed his view because you think he genuinely believes in Bitcoin or or believed it because he thinks that there's a marketplace for it and he wants to be part of that market. But what do you think of the there's about a dozen big financial companies, fidelity included.   Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:05:59) - Number one I don't care. So just please stop talking about this. And and I don't know what he would say about blockchain versus currencies to do something versus Bitcoin that does nothing. And maybe that's not different than me. But you know, this is what makes a market. People have opinions. This is the last time I'm ever in state. In my opinion.   CNBC (00:06:18) - Gold really didn't do anything either.   Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:06:21) - Yet because it's limited in supply.   Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:06:23) - So it's and it's been used. Uh, so you think so, huh? I do think there's a good chance that when bitcoin when we get to that 20 million bitcoins 42 know that Satoshi is going to come on there laugh hysterically. Go quiet. All Bitcoin is going to be erased I think. How the hell do you know it's going to stop at 21? I've never met one person who told me they know for a fact they take that as it's not.   CNBC (00:06:44) - It hasn't happened because by the last one will be mined in 2150. And it gets harder and harder every time there's another halving. But but, Jamie, I do like looking back over.   Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:06:55) - Just do what you want. I'll do what I want. Ask for gold.   CNBC (00:06:57) - You can. The six characteristics that make gold valuable for 4000 years. They're all present in Bitcoin. That's all I'm saying. I love you and I don't want to. And I also don't I don't also don't want to be a you may enjoy Joe.   Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:07:08) - You may be right.   Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:07:09) - Yeah. Like I don't own gold either. So okay. That's what.   CNBC (00:07:11) - I mean.   CNBC (00:07:12) - Couple of quick final question.   Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase (00:07:12) - I like to own things that pay me incomes, but it doesn't cost money to carry anyway. And it costs money to carry Bitcoin to. By the way.   Keith Weinhold (00:07:19) - Uh, that was Jamie Diamond. Now governments and banksters like Jamie Diamond, they often dislike bitcoin because it cuts out the use of their chief product, the dollar. So governments are especially hesitant to want to promote bitcoin, a lot of them in the world. Anyway, I've got a conversation with a bitcoin expert coming up. We're going to talk about its value proposition and then the criticisms. Yes, I'm in Quito today. I was last year in Ecuador two years ago, this Colorado sized nation of 18 million people. I plan to attempt climbing to the summit of a 20,000 foot mountain later in the week. As for today, let's continue with why should Bitcoin have any value? Today's guest is the founder of the Financial Underground, and he is the editor in chief of that publication.   Keith Weinhold (00:08:18) - He's a renowned international investor, and he specializes in identifying big picture geopolitical and economic trends ahead of the crowd. And you've seen him featured seemingly in everything from Forbes to the Ron Paul Liberty Report. He was a speaker at the well-known New Orleans Investment Conference as well. Hey, it's great to welcome on to gray, Nick. Jim Bruno.   Nick Giambruno (00:08:41) - Hey, Keith, great to be with you.   Keith Weinhold (00:08:43) - I think a lot of our listeners are real estate investors are going to be wondering now, why are you talking about Bitcoin on a real estate show? Actually, I think there are a few more commonalities here than what a lot of people think. What a real estate in Bitcoin have in common. They're both scarce, neither can be easily deluded, and they both take real world resources to produce more of. You could apply those same three attributes to gold. So real estate gold and bitcoin they have this scarcity. And really I think that's a wise investing theme. Go ahead and invest in what's scarce. Limit what's abundant and take zero cost to produce like dollars.   Keith Weinhold (00:09:21) - So really that's the commonality between real estate in Bitcoin. But on a real estate show, I think we have a lot of listeners that just don't have an overall common understanding. Nick, of just what is bitcoin and why does it have any value in the first place?   Nick Giambruno (00:09:37) - Well, that is a some very good observations and a very profound question. What is Bitcoin. Well, Bitcoin is a relatively new asset. However it has been decades in the making. People don't understand that Bitcoin didn't just fall out of the sky, or is some kind of accident in some mad sciences garage. This is something that has been in the the works basically since the late 70s, and it came out of the Cypherpunk movement. Now, you may have heard of these people. You may have not. The Cypherpunks are basically I find them as the good guys. They are involved in creating technologies that empower the individual and disempower the state. They are behind some of the most prominent freedom oriented technologies that you and I may take for granted, including encryption.   Nick Giambruno (00:10:27) - And that's another story in and of itself. Let me just briefly get into that, because that's what puts the crypto cryptography in cryptocurrency. Cryptography is a very important field. It's basically the method of encoding information so that only the recipient can see it. And it's very important to understand that while we take for granted the average person has access to unbreakable cryptography today, that was not always the case. Cryptography has been around since the time of the ancient Greeks, and maybe even before, but it's always been a government monopoly until very recently in terms of historical standards, when cryptography was made available to the average person. That is a very profound thing, because now the average person can secure their information and secure their online life in a way that nobody can break. The US government can't break it. Chinese government can't break it, nobody can break it. And that is very important. And that laid the foundation for Bitcoin. So what is bitcoin. It's just a summit. But it is a superior alternative to central banking.   Nick Giambruno (00:11:27) - And that is a very revolutionary thing. It basically does the job of what a central bank does but much much, much better and removes all of the corruption, all of the nastiness that goes along with central banking. So what we have here is a genuine, workable alternative to central banking, and we can get into the details of that. But if you want to look at it, what it is, that's what it is. And at the same time, it's a form of money that is not just resistant to debasement, it's totally resistant to debasement. You're talking about gold and real estate. Well, gold. What made gold money over thousands of years? Yes, it is scarce. However, I always like to use this example. There's a concept that's related to scarcity, but it's not that it was scarce. And the reason is, is think about platinum and palladium. There's actually scarcer than gold, like there are fewer ounces of platinum and palladium in the world than there are gold ounces. So why don't people use platinum and palladium as money? It's a very, very important point.   Nick Giambruno (00:12:26) - The reason is, is because the platinum and palladium supply is not resistant to debasement. So it's scarcer, but it's not resistant to debasement. What does that mean? It means the annual supply growth of platinum and palladium are basically equal to the stockpiles. So depending on what this year or next year's annual production of platinum or palladium are going to be, it can wildly swing the market. That is not true of gold. Gold is only about 1.5% growth per year. And that's very, very consistent. What does that mean? That is a very important concept. So the gold supply only grows at about 1.5% per year.   Keith Weinhold (00:13:02) - And this is basically an inflation rate.   Nick Giambruno (00:13:04) - Yes it is its inflation rate. But it's very small and nobody can really change that. Think about it. There's a. It's not as if people don't want to increase the gold supply. They would love to. The way that the gold is distributed in the world, and the cost it takes to mining it puts a really hard limit on what you can produce each year.   Nick Giambruno (00:13:22) - So that's what makes it a good store of value. And if something is not a good store of value, it's not going to be a good money. These are some very, very fundamental concepts I'm talking about because they also apply to Bitcoin.   Keith Weinhold (00:13:35) - Then when someone asked me what Bitcoin is to give it a really short definition, I call Bitcoin a global digital currency that's decentralized. And you brought up the decentralization. That's really important. That's where I can make a peer to peer payment without having to go through an intermediary where I can send my Bitcoin directly over to Nick. There was no bank involved in that transaction, for example, the decentralization of Bitcoin. But we talk more about why Bitcoin has value. I believe you began touching on it there, Nick. Bitcoin has this hardness, which is a strange term to people because Bitcoin is digital. So can you tell us more about Bitcoin's value that comes through its hardness.   Nick Giambruno (00:14:21) - Let me just touch on a quick point you made also. So simply put, the value proposition of Bitcoin is that it allows anybody, anywhere in the world to send and receive value without depending on any third party.   Nick Giambruno (00:14:32) - At the same time. It's a form of money that is 100% resistant to debasement. That's its value proposition. That's a very profound thing. So going to the hardness. Yes, hardness is a concept that a lot of people get confused. Look, I love gold, I own gold, I recommend gold chain from the gold community. And I know the gold community. So I think a lot of people in the gold community get confused around this hardness now. They think it's hard, like physically hard, like abrasive metal. That's not what art means. Hard. And in terms of a hard asset, what it means is hard to produce. That's what it means. Yeah, that's what a hard asset is. It's hard to produce. And what is the opposite of that? Something that's easy to produce. Nobody would want to store their value, store their savings, store their economic energy into something that somebody else can make with no effort, almost like, you know, oh, let's put our life savings in arcade tokens or frequent flyer miles.   Nick Giambruno (00:15:26) - It's ridiculous when you think of it in that way. But that is, in my humble opinion, the most important attribute of money is that it's hard to produce all the other attributes of money. Quite frankly, are meaningless if the money is not hard to produce. Because if it's not hard to produce, none of the other stuff matters. And that's the most crucial attribute of money.   Keith Weinhold (00:15:45) - Yes, reinforcing why we have that investing theme of invest in something that's scarce and difficult to produce and takes real world resources to produce, much like real estate does. Much like gold with all the mining and assaying and much like Bitcoin, because to produce new Bitcoin, it takes electricity, it takes hardware and it takes software, some real world resources in order to produce Bitcoin. We talk about the production rate or the inflation rate in just a couple months. Here we're coming up on something really interesting, which is really one reason why I have you on the show talking about Bitcoin now. And that is the having event, the halving being that rate of new Bitcoin issuance is cut in half every four years.   Keith Weinhold (00:16:28) - So tell us more about that and bring the stock to flow ratio into the conversation here. We're at a cusp.   Nick Giambruno (00:16:34) - Of a very important moment in monetary history. Because you can quantify the hardness of an asset. It is quantifiable. It is basically the inverse of the supply growth. And there's another way of saying that, as you mentioned, the stock to flow ratio basically. In short, you got the stockpiles. That's what's available. And then you have the flow which is like the new supply. So the higher the stock to flow, the harder the asset is and the more resistant to debasement it is. And same thing when you take the the supply growth, you want a smaller supply growth. It's just the inverse of the stock to flow. So gold has always been mankind's artist money for thousands of years and gold's stock to blow ratios about I think it's around 60 which means it takes about 60 years of current production to equal current supplies. If you look at silver, it's much less than gold.   Nick Giambruno (00:17:25) - And every other commodity is closer to one, which means that every year the new production basically equals the existing stockpiles. And that's not a very good attribute for something that you want to have as a store of value. Now, what is going to happen in this having that's coming up in around April of this year? You can quantify the stock that flow. I just told you how to quantify it. So right now Bitcoin and gold have about equal stock to flow ratios in about equal hardness. However a key feature of the Bitcoin protocol is that every four years the new Bitcoin supply issuance gets cut in half until around the year 2140, when it is just goes to zero. So Bitcoin is not only going to exceed gold's hardness in a few months, it's going to double it. Now that is a very interesting moment in monetary history because mankind has not had a harder money than gold I don't think. Ever. So this is all going to be very important and it's coming very soon in April. Late April I think is when it's going to happen.   Nick Giambruno (00:18:28) - So a very important moment in monetary history.   Keith Weinhold (00:18:31) - There is real profundity there with the stock to flow ratio of Bitcoin exceeding that of gold with the upcoming having. And if you, the listener still hung up on the stock to flow ratio, we're talking about the ratio of the existing stock, how much of this stuff already exists, whether it's real estate or gold or Bitcoin divided by the rate of new issuance. So the higher the stock to flow ratio, and as it has the greater hardness it has. And currently 900 new bitcoins per day are being produced. And the having means just what it sounds like in April that will drop to 450 new bitcoins being mined into existence each day. So really you can think of Bitcoin as being disinflationary. It will continue to inflate until the year 2140. Like Nick described. That's when new bitcoin will cease to be mined. And until that point, the new amount the flow continues to get halved. Every four years, there will only ever be 21 million Bitcoin that exist, and 19.6 million of those have already been mined.   Keith Weinhold (00:19:36) - So you can get an idea of the hardness and how this helps supply the value of Bitcoin.   Nick Giambruno (00:19:42) - Well, absolutely. And it's he talks about that. I think it's something like 93% of the time, supply has already been mined, and the remaining 7% are going to come online over the next 120 years or so. You might want to get some before other people figure this out. There is definitely not enough Bitcoin for every millionaire to have one bitcoin, it's far less. I think there's something maybe 50 million millionaires in the world, probably more. They can't all have a bitcoin. It's a very tight supply and we have a situation here too that is related. Because Bitcoin is the only asset, the only commodity were higher prices cannot induce more supply. If gold went to 10,000, you can be sure there are going to be more gold miners getting into the business, more economic deposits being found and and exploited and more supply eventually coming on to the market. Great point. And the same is true for every commodity.   Nick Giambruno (00:20:38) - Gold is just the most resistant to that process. However, Bitcoin, no matter how high the price goes, it cannot induce the production of more Bitcoin. That's a very unique scarcity attribute that I don't think people really appreciate very much. It's certainly there.   Keith Weinhold (00:20:53) - So this upcoming halving event is one reason why I'm having Nick on the show now to do our first ever Bitcoin episode in almost 500 episodes. And the other reason is the nation see of the SEC approving a new spot to Bitcoin ETF. And all that basically means is it helps give everyday investors really easy access to Bitcoin without having to set up a crypto wallet and bam, hey, your mom can become a crypto bro now.   Nick Giambruno (00:21:22) - It is certainly a milestone in acceptance. I think it signifies that Bitcoin is no longer a fringe. It's here to stay. It took over ten years for the SEC to approve one of these things. I think the Winklevoss twins applied over ten years ago for the first Bitcoin ETF, so they reluctantly did it. I don't think they want it to do it.   Nick Giambruno (00:21:43) - I think they lost a couple of key court cases that kind of forced their hand, but they did approve it. I frankly don't recommend the ETFs. It's not really Bitcoin because what you have is a Bitcoin IOU, several Bitcoin IOUs. So let's say you buy the Blackrock Bitcoin ETF. Will you have an IOU from your broker for the Blackrock ETF share. And the broker has an IOU from Blackrock. And then Blackrock has an IOU from Coinbase which actually holds the Bitcoin. So I always tell people look it's a spectrum. If you want to take that trade off and you're taking a trade off for convenience over a security and sovereignty, if you want to take that trade off, that's go right ahead. But be have your eyes wide open and be conscious of the trade off that you're making. I always prefer to, uh, tell people Bitcoin is unique. This is a bearer asset. People forget about bearer assets. Bearer assets are a very good thing. They give the people who hold them ownership over them.   Nick Giambruno (00:22:42) - I think people who are interested in sovereignty. One thing too that's very important is that even if the Bitcoin price stays flat forever, it doesn't go up at all. It still offers people tremendous value as what we were talking about before, even if it stays flat and doesn't go up ever again, it's still offers anybody, anywhere in the world the ability to send and receive value from anybody else, anywhere in the world, and to hold money that's resistant to debasement, that's hugely valuable, even if the price doesn't go up. So and you can only get those benefits if you hold Bitcoin properly in your own bitcoin wallet, where you control the keys and only you control the keys, because that's who has ownership to this. Bitcoin is by who controls those private keys. You can just kind of think of that like the password dear Bitcoin. So that's what you want to do. If you can learn how to drive a car you can learn how to self-custody Bitcoin.   Keith Weinhold (00:23:33) - I love what you did there, Nick, because what you helped us do is you helped us transition from talking about Bitcoin as an investment asset to using bitcoin as a currency, if you wish to use it to transfer value.   Keith Weinhold (00:23:47) - Really, Nick, I think a lot of people in the United States, one reason that they're not that interested in Bitcoin is because our currency, our United States dollar, it sure has problems. It sure recently went through a big wave of inflation, but our currency just is not as bad as some of these worthless pieces of paper have been in the Argentine currency or in Turkey or in Iran or Haiti. So maybe Americans don't have enough of a reason to want to go ahead and get a currency that holds its value. So what are your thoughts with what people in other nations are doing, including El
487: Immigration Crisis Worsens—Severe Housing Impacts Felt
Feb 5 2024
487: Immigration Crisis Worsens—Severe Housing Impacts Felt
Immigrants keep pouring into the US’ southern border.  How are we going to house them? We’re already millions of housing units undersupplied. Some migrants get free housing. Yet there are homeless veterans. Here’s what to expect from more immigration: more rental housing demand, more multigenerational dwellings, more homelessness, higher labor supply. Get a simple explanation about title insurance. Our in-house Investment Coach, Naresh, joins us with a real estate market update.  Two popular investment markets are Memphis BRRRRs and Florida new-builds. He provides free coaching at GREmarketplace.com. Timestamps: The immigrant crisis worsens (00:00:01) Discussion on the increasing number of immigrants and the housing shortage crisis in the United States. Housing supply shortage (00:02:44) Analysis of the shortage in housing supply, estimated to be around 4 million units, and the decline in available housing units. Impact of immigration on housing demand (00:05:07) Forecasted impacts of immigration on housing demand and the expected population growth due to immigration. Challenges and solutions for housing immigrants (00:09:03) Discussion on the challenges of housing immigrants and potential solutions, including easing construction restrictions and promoting the building of entry-level housing. Title insurance explained (00:17:29) Explanation of title insurance, its types, and its significance in real estate transactions. Update on property manager's situation (00:15:08) An update on the property manager's situation involving stolen rent payments and the tenant's agreement to compensate for the loss. Mortgage rates and inflation (00:21:52) Discussion on the current mortgage rates and their correlation with inflation, as well as predictions for future rate movements. Mortgage Rates and Fed's Strategy (00:22:54) Discussion on the impact of the Fed's decision to hold rates and its potential effect on mortgage rates. Incentives and Real Estate Markets (00:25:08) Explanation of incentives offered in Memphis and Florida real estate markets, including the BR method and new build properties. Real Estate Investment Strategies (00:29:04) Comparison of the Memphis BR method and Florida new build as investment strategies, emphasizing the benefits of each approach. Property Investment Insights (00:32:16) Discussion on the impact of property ownership and the potential for life-changing outcomes through real estate investment. Economic Uncertainty and Real Estate (00:37:07) Anticipation of potential economic volatility and its impact on real estate investment decisions, emphasizing the stability of real estate during uncertain times. Resources mentioned: Show Page: GetRichEducation.com/487 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Hold. The immigrant crisis worsens. Where are we going? To house all these people. A simple explainer on what title insurance is. Then where do you find the best real estate deals in this market today on get Rich education. If you like the get Rich education podcast, you're going to love our Don't Quit Your Daydream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free! Sign up and get rich education.com/letter. It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor. Rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting gray to 66866. Text gray to 66866.   Speaker 2 (00:01:06) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold (00:01:22) - Welcome to jewelry heard in 188 world nations from Lima, Ohio to Lima, Peru. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Get rich education founder, Forbes Real Estate Council member and longtime real estate investor. Our mission here. Let's provide people with good housing, help abolish the term slumlord and get paid five ways at the same time. Immigrants keep pouring into our southern border. In fact, federal agents encountered roughly 2.5 million migrants there just last year alone. Now, though, not all will become permanent residents. Understand? 2.5 million. That's the population of the city proper of Chicago or Houston. All in just one year. How are we going to house all these migrants? This crisis has only worsened in that 2.5 million migrants in a year figure is, according to US Customs and Border Protection data. Now, understand first that America has about 140 million existing housing units. That's what we're dealing with today. By every estimate out there, we already have a housing shortage. The layperson on the street knows that and estimates about its magnitude.   Keith Weinhold (00:02:44) - I mean, they're all over the map, some as high is America is already 7 million housing units undersupplied in order to house our current population. And you have other estimates as low is that we're only 1.5 million housing units. Undersupplied. So let's interpolate and kind of be conservative, or just use a figure closer to a common consensus and say that we are 4 million housing units. Undersupplied. All right. But if that's our given, here's what that means. 4 million housing units undersupplied to merely reach a balanced housing supply, we'd need to build enough homes to meet population growth, plus 400,000 on top of that. And we'd have to do that every single year for an entire decade. Just astounding. And to be clear, that's not to be oversupplied with housing. That's just to reach an equilibrium between supply and demand. Now, the supply of available housing, and this is basically what I'm going to talk about next, is the number of homes for sale at any given time, right. That began gradually descending in 2016.   Keith Weinhold (00:04:02) - And back then it was one and a half to 2 million available units. And in the spring of 2020, like I've talked about before, the housing supply just crashed to well below 1 million, and it still hasn't gotten up from its mighty fall. In fact, it's only about 700,000 units available today. All right, that is the Fred active listing count and Fred's sources there. Statistics from Realtor.com. All right, so that's what we're dealing with. That's a dire situation. All right, well, how do housing starts? Look, are we building up out of the ground enough to maybe start getting a handle on this sometime in the next decade? I mean, is there anything that could be more encouraging than more housing starts? Well, really, there's nothing encouraging there at all. In fact, new housing construction starts have hit a ten month low. My gosh. So that's the supply side. All right. What about the housing demand side? Well America's population grew by 1.6 to 1.8 million people between 2022 and 2023.   Keith Weinhold (00:05:07) - And that number is forecast to climb during the next few years, worsening the housing shortage crisis. And with US births falling and deaths rising, it's immigration, immigration is what is going to fuel the majority of population growth for the next decade. Immigrant related growth that is going to impact local housing markets across the country. And it's expected to hit especially hard in the northeast, Florida, California, Nevada and Texas. And what's happening is outraging some people. Some cities are housing migrants in public places, even arenas, including ones that Texas Governor Greg Abbott has bused to the northeast. And, of course, New York City Mayor Eric Adams has been outspoken about how to handle the migrant crisis. Understand that there are homeless veterans out there in America, yet the state of Maine is giving migrants up to two years of free rent for new apartments. In that right there has made a lot of people. And there are a lot of other cases out there like that of migrants getting free housing. Now, just consider this John Burroughs research and consulting.   Keith Weinhold (00:06:31) - They provide a lot of good information to the real estate market, and they have for a long time credit to them. And by the way, if you'd like us to invite John Burns onto the show here or if you have any other comments or questions or concerns, feel free to write into us through get Rich education. Com slash contact. So you can send either an email or leave a voice message. Well, according to their industry respected data, some of which is compiled through the US Census Bureau back in 2021, that's when we reached an inflection point where the US population grew more through immigration than it did through natural increase in natural change. That is simply the births minus deaths, and that is continued each year since there is more US population growth through immigration than there is through natural increase. In fact, bring it up to last year, our population grew by 1.1 million through immigration and just 500,000 through natural increase, more than double more than double the increase through immigration as natural change. And John Burns makes the forecast through the year 2033.   Keith Weinhold (00:07:47) - So the next nine years, the growth through immigration will outstrip that some more and become double to triple that of natural growth overall. Every single year through 2033, we'll add 1.7 to 2 million Americans. And they all need to be housed somewhere. So the bottom line here is that immigration fueled growth already outstrips natural growth. And that should continue and only be weighted more heavily toward immigrants every single year for the next decade, probably beyond the next decade. We just don't have projections that far yet. Well, how are you going to house all these people when we're already badly undersupplied and understand I'm not making any judgments on saying who or who should not be able to enter our nation. That is for someone else to decide. And in fact, I'm the descendant of immigrants. They're my ancestors. And you may very well be too. And over the long term, immigrants can be an asset. I am simply here asking where and how are we going to house them for the next decade and what that means to you.   Keith Weinhold (00:09:03) - Tiny homes, 3D printed homes, shipping container homes none of them seem to be the answer. And of course, population forecasts. When you look out in the future like that, they're going to vary based on the percentage of successful asylum seekers in the 2024 presidential election winner, and more. So, the figures that I shared with you, they are only the average case. In any case, the crisis is poised to worsen because now you've seen that there is a terrible mismatch between population growth and housing starts. How are you going to solve this? The government needs to ease construction restrictions and promote the building of entry level housing. More up zoning should be allowed. Do you know what up zoning is? It means just what it sounds like increasing the housing density, often by building taller buildings. So up zoning is taller building heights. All right. Well let's look at really.   Speaker 3 (00:10:02) - Four.   Keith Weinhold (00:10:03) - Big impacts that this immigration wave is having on America's already scarce supply of housing. New immigrants typically rent property. They don't buy property.   Keith Weinhold (00:10:16) - So that's higher rental housing demand. Secondly, expect more multigenerational and family oriented dwellings. That's what's needed with additional bedrooms and affordable price points like entry level single family rentals. If you want to own rental property, that right there is the spot for durable demand. And thirdly, I'm sorry, another impact is expect to see more homeless people in your community like I've touched on before. In fact, homelessness is already up 12% year over year. That's partly due to inflation, and that is already the biggest jump. Since these point in time surveys have been used. The biggest ever jump in homelessness are ready. Those stats only go back to 2007. That's when they begin measuring it. And that's according to HUD and federal officials. And then the fourth and final impact of all this immigration is that builders and manufacturers will probably see a small uptick in labor availability these next. Few years. Okay, that part could help. America could help with this labor shortage crunch. But all the other major impacts put more demand and strain on what's already a paucity of American housing supply.   Keith Weinhold (00:11:36) - And the bottom line is that there are too many people competing for too little housing, driving up prices and driving up rents this decade. I've been talking about lots of people moving north across borders. Me, I've recently moved south across borders, though for only a few weeks here. I'm joining you from here in Medellin, Colombia today, where in between doing my real estate research here, I'll be trekking in the Colombian Andes this week and the Ecuadorian Andes next week, when I'll be based in Ecuador's national capital of Quito. And, you know, there's a real estate lesson in this itself. Really? Okay, me traveling to Colombia and Ecuador, people often label and mischaracterize areas that they haven't been to or say they hear of the drug trade in Colombia or of some of the more recent, I guess, civil unrest in Ecuador, where I'll be next week. And they think, sheesh, isn't it dangerous in those places? Oh come on, I mean, sheesh, Colombia is a nation of 52 million people and it's almost twice the size of Texas.   Keith Weinhold (00:12:44) - The question is where? Where in Colombia do you think is dangerous? Don't you expect there would be great variability there? Now you the great listener. You're smarter than the average American. So I think that you get it with last month's continued civil uprising in Ecuador, seeing that story in the news that actually reminded me to book a trip there, the opposite of staying away when they held up all the people at that TV station that was way out in Guayaquil, Ecuador. To tie in the real estate lesson here. Back to your home nation. If you do live in the US or wherever you live like I do, see our investment coach, Andrea. She moved from Georgia to the Detroit Metro a couple of years ago. I don't think you'd want to invest in real estate in Andrea's neighborhood, where she lives in Detroit, because it's too nice. The property prices are high and the numbers wouldn't work for you in an upper end neighborhood of metro Detroit. But people that haven't been to Detroit don't think about areas being too ritzy for investment.   Keith Weinhold (00:13:49) - Well, of course, some of the areas are. Some of my point is, stereotypes are hard to shake. I encourage you to get out and see the world now. I've got an interesting and really an unlikely update on my property manager that had the tenant rent payments stolen from his drop box, meaning I didn't get paid the rent. The property manager, he didn't make good on that and pay me the rent. He wanted me to take the loss from the rent payment that he failed to secure from the paper money order stolen from his overnight drop box. So the manager doesn't want to take the loss. I don't want to take the loss well, and I can hardly believe this, but apparently the tenant has agreed to make the property manager hold. The tenant would effectively pay rent twice for that month, and then the property manager will apparently finally pay me the missing rent after it flows through him. The manager. I don't know if the property manager had to convince the tenant that it's the tenant's responsibility to put the payment right into the manager's hands, or what? So the tenant, what they're going to do is pay an extra $200 a month until the $1,950 stolen rent is compensated, I guess what, eight months of stepped up rent.   Keith Weinhold (00:15:08) - And so I was just really surprised that the tenant would agree to do that. And, you know, in this saga that I've been describing to you for, I guess, the third week in a row now, you know, one Jerry listener, they asked me something like, doesn't your property manager know that you're rather influential in the real estate world? Like thinking maybe I'd get preferential treatment? Oh, to that I say, no, I don't want preferential treatment. I mean, few things are more annoying in society than people that position themselves like that. But I will tell you that I actually did meet this property manager in person before he started managing my properties, and he did wear a suit and tie in the conference room for meeting me, which I thought was interesting. Later today on the show, we've got a guest that's familiar to you. He was somewhat bearish on real estate when he was here with us back in November. That's when he talked about how activity was slow, and you might even want to sit on the sidelines of adding more property to your portfolio.   Keith Weinhold (00:16:10) - We'll see if that's changed today. Now over on YouTube, you might very much like watching me in our explained. Video series because in a video format, I can show you where the numbers come from at. Very simply, break down an investing term like net worth for one video or cash flow, or your return on amortization in another one. There's also a new video in our explained series about title insurance, and this is what you'll hear over there. The title to a house is the document that proves that the owner owns it. Without that proof, the house can't be bought or sold, and title insurance is written by title insurance companies. What a title insurance company does is research the history of the house to see if there are any complications, also known as clouds, in its ownership issues that cloud the title could be like an outstanding old mortgage that the prospective seller has on the property. A previous deed that wasn't signed or wasn't written correctly and unresolved legal debt or a levy by a creditor, like an old lien placed by a contractor who once did some work on the windows and was never paid for it.   Keith Weinhold (00:17:29) - They're all examples of clouds on a title, and make transferring the property ownership difficult or impossible. But if the title appears to be clean, no clouds, then the title insurer writes a policy promising to cover the expenses of correcting any title problems if they would happen to get discovered after the sale. Title companies may refuse to insure a clouded title to be transferred, so it's important to know about any potential issues as soon as possible. Now there are two types of title insurance. There is lender's title insurance and owner's title insurance. First, lenders title insurance. In most areas of the country, the mortgage lender requires that the property buyer purchase a lender title insurance policy to protect the lender's security interest in the real estate. Lender's title insurance is issued in the amount of the mortgage loan and the amount of coverage decreases and finally disappears as the mortgage loan is paid off. And then secondly, owner's title insurance. It protects the homebuyers interest and is normally issued in the amount of the purchase price of the property. Coverage means that the insurer will pay all valid claims on the title as insured, and in most real estate transactions, separate title policies are purchased for the lender and the buyer, and although it can vary by location, the buyer typically purchases the policy for the lender, whereas the seller often pays for the policy for the buyer.   Keith Weinhold (00:19:12) - And that's title insurance, if you like. Simple to the point education by video like that, and you'd want to get a really good look at me for some inexplicable reason. Uh, for more, check out the new explained series. It is now on our get Rich education YouTube channel or next. I'm Keith Reinhold, you're listening to get Rich education. Render this a specific expert with income property you need. Ridge lending Group Nmls 42056. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge personally. They'll even customize a plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending group.com Ridge lending group.com. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%.   Keith Weinhold (00:20:35) - Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, six eight, six, six.   Speaker 4 (00:21:21) - Anybody? It's Robert Elms with a Real Estate Guys radio program. So glad you found Keith White old and get rich education. Don't quit your day dream.   Keith Weinhold (00:21:40) - Hey. Well, I'd like to welcome in someone that you might have met by now. That is one of our terrific investment coaches. Narration. The race. Hey, welcome back onto the show.   Naresh Vissa (00:21:49) - Keith. It's a pleasure to be back on race.   Keith Weinhold (00:21:52) - I know you've got mortgage rates on your mind. It's been such an interesting topic lately, since they peaked at about 8% back in October of 2023, and almost everyone this year anticipates that now that embedded inflation is lower, that rates of all types are going to fall, rates in inflation are typically correlated. And why don't you talk to us with your thoughts about where mortgage rates are currently and where they go from here?   Naresh Vissa (00:22:19) - Like you said, mortgage rates peaked around October. The fed did their last rate hike in July 2023, so that's why the lagging effect caused rates to rise a little. And then they've been slowly creeping down since October. And what does that mean? Or where do we go from here in this new year 2024? I've been pretty spot on with what the Fed's going to do. I think they made some mistakes. I think they should have done 2 or 3 more 25 basis point hikes in 2023 because we're seeing inflation creep back up.   Naresh Vissa (00:22:54) - And that's a huge problem for the fed because their target is 2%. But that's a completely different topic. We get Monday morning quarterback the fed all we want. The fed has essentially come out and said that their rate hiking campaign is over. They've hiked enough and it's a take it or leave it. They're just going to hold and hold and hold until inflation reaches that 2% target. So what does that mean for mortgage rates? If we know that the fed isn't going to raise rates anymore, that means we are. We've already seen it. Mortgage rates have slowly creeped down. And there is a legitimate chance that the inflation rate that the CPI hits 2% by this summer, there is a chance of that. Right now we're at 3.3 or 3.4%, but there is a good chance that by the end of this summer, let's say August, we hit that 2% target, which means the fed will immediately start cutting rates after that whenever the next meeting is, I think September 2024, they'll start cutting rates, which means that's going to have an effect on mortgage rates.   Naresh Vissa (00:24:00) - We can see mortgage rates plummet even more later this year going into 2025. Now, this is just a prediction. There's a chance that inflation could go up if there is a middle East crisis or World War three or whatever you want to call it, there's a chance that inflation spikes back up and the fed just they could hold rates where they are for two years. I don't have a crystal ball in front of me. There was a black swan event that happened in 2020. Obviously, there could be a black swan event that happens in 2024. We won't know. But what we do know is the fed is done hiking rates and they're going to hold as long as possible until we get to that 2% inflation target. What does that mean for real estate? If mortgage rates are going back down, you're getting a better deal today than you were in October 2023 or November 2023. So it's almost 100 basis points lower from the peak that we saw in October. So interest rates have gone down. They've somewhat normalized to a level that digestible for investors, still not quite digestible for the average homeowner.   Naresh Vissa (00:25:08) - And the best part about this, Keith, is that the providers who we work with are still offering amazing incentives, the same amazing incentives, if not better, with the lower interest rates. So previously we brought up a 5.75% interest rate incentive program, one year free property management, another program that was two two for two years of free property management, 2% closing cost credit, $4,000 property management credit, all sorts of incentives. And those incentives are still in play while interest rates have gone down. So instead of 5.75% incentive that these providers are offering, they're now offering 4.5% interest rate. So that's why I think if there were no incentives, hey, you know what? We should probably wait until the fed starts cutting again. But with these incentives, this is incredible because they're going to be gone again the moment the fed starts cutting aggressively. These incentives are all gone. So you may as well get in. Now when home values have somewhat corrected and some markets are seeing precipitous declines, home value declines, real estate declines.   Naresh Vissa (00:26:20) - So right now it's still an excellent time to invest. Given this economic landscape.   Keith Weinhold (00:26:26) - Gray listeners are pretty savvy. And you the listener, you realize that changes in the fed funds rate don't have a direct change, and they don't move in lockstep with the 30 year fixed rate mortgages. The fed has really loaded up with the fed funds rate near 5%. Now they basically have a whole lot of ammo in the cartridge where they can go ahead and lower rates if the economy begins to get into trouble. One reason mortgage rates are higher than other long term rates is that US mortgages can be prepaid without any penalty. The anomaly in what's been different and what's been happening here is that typically there's a spread of about 1.75% between the ten year note, which has been 4% or so recently. And the 30 year mortgage rate is about 1.75% higher, which. She would put it at 5.75, but instead mortgage rates have been almost 7%. So a greater than usual historic spread between the ten year teno, which is more what mortgage rates are based off of and what that rate actually is, and the reason that that spread has been so high as this perceived greater credit risk or anticipated economic changes like this recession that is always just perpetually around the corner.   Keith Weinhold (00:27:44) - So we don't really know where mortgage rates are going to go. We know that they're not high. They're actually below their long term average. But of course, they just feel high because the only thing that was unusual is the rate at which they've increased. With that in mind here as we talk about mortgage rates nowadays. Why don't you tell us more about the incentives that are being offered right now?   Naresh Vissa (00:28:03) - The incentives are still being offered. The question is, Keith, I want to share two different strategies or two different markets. It's kind of a mix of strategy and market. The two most popular markets we are seeing right now are in Memphis, Tennessee, and in Florida. Still, Florida continues to be hot. Why is that? Why these two markets? Well, number one, Memphis still has a lot of rehab properties that you can purchase in the 100 to $150,000 range. Before the pandemic, it was common to see properties selling for 60 to $80,000. Those properties are a dime a dozen now, because of what we've already talked about the inflation, the home values, rising real estate going up.   Naresh Vissa (00:28:51) - Memphis still offers those options. Now we work with a provider in Memphis who specializes in the BR method, the B or R r. So it's for cause the BR.   Keith Weinhold (00:29:04) - It's not the February temperatures. BR yes.   Naresh Vissa (00:29:07) - Yeah. It's not the February temperatures. It stands for you buy rehab rent then you refinance and then you repeat it with the next property. So buy rehab rent refinance repeat. So this is a little different from your traditional real estate investing where you're just buying. It's already rehabbed. So you're buying renting it out. And then end of story here. It's a strategy that is meant to build equity. Almost immediately. You rehab it. And look we're not going to get into the details of this right now. I highly recommend that, folks, they can go to the GRE marketplace and set up a meeting with me if they want to talk some more about BR or if their experience and they know about BR, they may not know that we offer BR properties. But our investors have loved Memphis, BR.   Naresh Vissa (00:30:02) - They have loved it. They have bought more and more is one of our hottest asset classes or strategies right now. Memphis BR so highly recommend it. What are the incentives? There actually no incentives that our Memphis, BR provider is offering, because the incentive of the BR strategy is enough to get people to keep buying. They keep getting inventory, they don't run out. They find ways to make it work. Now in Florida, we work with a provider who we've featured on this show a couple of times before, and they're owned by the largest Japanese real estate developer called Sumitomo Forestry. They're one of the largest Japanese companies in the world. Warren Buffett owns a huge stake, Berkshire Hathaway in Sumitomo. So I highly recommend this Florida provider because they're able to offer properties that values that other providers can't compete with at prices that other providers can't compete with. They're offering the incentives that I told you, the 4.5% program, in some cases, you can buy down the rate all the way down to 4.25% if you want.   Naresh Vissa (00:31:10) - They have two years free property management or one year free property. It just depends on the package that you choose. They're offering closing cost credits. You can negotiate the list price. These are the two most popular partners we are currently working with, and I highly recommend if you are liking this real estate market, you're seeing lower interest rates. You're seeing that there's been a correction in home values and you want to get in right now. Contact your investment coach. If you don't have an investment coach, go to the marketplace. You can select me if you want, or you can select the other investment coach Andrea, it's up to you and we can share more information.   Keith Weinhold (00:31:52) - You're talking about two different strategies here, the Memphis BR and the Florida Newbuild. And I think of the Memphis burger is something that's lower cost. It's for an investor with a more aggressive disposition where it will take some of your involvement, even though it's still only going to be remote involvement. And then on the flip side, with the Florida new build, you're going to benefit from those low bought down rates that the builder will buy down for you.   Keith Weinhold (00:32:16) - The longer you plan to hold the property, the more the rate buy down is going to benefit you. And then also think of the Florida new build is kind of being a low noise investment.   Naresh Vissa (00:32:29) - You're absolutely correct, Keith. So I highly recommend those who are sitting on the fence. I've come on this podcast before and said, hey, Keith, you know, right now I'm not really sure where things are going. Like it's a little dead. Maybe investors should hold off.   Keith Weinhold (00:32:44) - Yeah, back in November, that was your guidance?
486: Should We Eliminate the Property Tax? Featuring Tom Wheelwright
Jan 29 2024
486: Should We Eliminate the Property Tax? Featuring Tom Wheelwright
California is strengthening protections for tenants. I discuss. It’s already a disadvantageous state for real estate investors.  My Property Manager had my tenant’s $1,550 rent payment stolen from his drop box last year. He expects me to take the loss. I won’t. Who is liable for the payment - the thief, bank, tenant, manager, or the investor (me)? Tom Wheelwright, CEO of WealthAbility, joins me. We discuss the role of property tax in funding essential services.  The conversation touches on the regressive nature of property tax, alternatives to it, and the importance of understanding tax strategies. US taxes of all types keep ratcheting higher over time. But they’re still lower than most world nations.  The episode also considers the impact of elections on tax policies, emphasizing the need for informed voting regarding taxation. You need a tax professional that knows how to find you all the deductions for real estate investors here: GetRichEducation.com/Tax Timestamps: Landlord-Tenant Relationships (00:00:00) Discussion on landlord-tenant relationships, stolen rent payment, and potential elimination of property tax. New Renter Protections in California (00:02:30) Overview of new laws in California regarding upfront deposit amounts, eviction protections, and banning of crime-free housing policies. Options for Homeowners in California (00:03:50) Details about new housing laws in California, including more options for accessory dwelling units and their impact on the housing crisis. Stolen Rent Payment Dilemma (00:05:53) Narrative about a stolen rent payment, liability concerns, and the property manager's proposed resolution. Feasibility of Eliminating Property Tax (00:13:45) Discussion on the possibility of abolishing property tax and its funding of schools, fire departments, and police services. Property Tax Funding (00:18:37) Insights into the funding of property tax and its allocation to schools, fire departments, and police services. Property Tax and Its Impact (00:19:37) Discussion on the challenges and implications of property tax as a wealth tax and its regressive nature. National Property Tax Rates (00:20:40) Exploration of the national average property tax rate and its impact on property value and inflation. Proposition 13 in California (00:21:34) Analysis of the impact and benefits of Proposition 13 in California, which limits property tax increases for homeowners staying in the same home. Alternatives to Property Tax (00:23:27) Exploration of alternative taxation methods, such as transaction tax and the potential elimination of property tax in favor of a transaction tax. Primary Residence Capital Gains Tax Exemption (00:25:16) Insights into the primary residence capital gains tax exemption and its impact on homeowners, including the need for inflation adjustments. Future Taxation Trends (00:27:24) Discussion on the potential for heavier taxation and comparisons with taxation policies in other countries. Potential New Tax Types (00:29:16) Exploration of the possibility of new tax types, including the concept of a poll tax and its implications. Value Added Tax and Tax Reduction Strategies (00:31:17) Insights into the potential implementation of a value-added tax in the United States and strategies for tax reduction through understanding the tax code. Selecting the Right Tax Advisor (00:33:00) Advice on choosing a qualified CPA and the importance of having a knowledgeable tax advisor for effective tax planning. Election Year and Taxation Policies (00:34:54) Analysis of the potential impact of the upcoming election on taxation policies and the importance of considering tax implications when voting. Property Tax and School Funding (end) Perspective on property tax funding for schools and the broader community impact, addressing objections to paying property tax. Property Tax (00:37:07) Discussion on the controversial nature of property tax and its impact on property ownership. Tax Strategy and Deductions (00:38:13) Importance of finding the right tax professional for real estate investors to maximize deductions and benefits. Disclaimer (00:39:25) Legal disclaimer regarding the information provided in the podcast and the need to consult appropriate professionals for personalized advice. Resources mentioned: Show Page: GetRichEducation.com/486 Get matched with the right tax pro: www.GetRichEducation.com/Tax Tom’s book, “Tax-Free Wealth”: https://www.amazon.com/Tax-Free-Wealth-Massive-Permanently-Lowering/dp/1612681204 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Keith Weinhold (00:00:00) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. California and new renter protections. My own property manager had my tenants rent payments stolen from his drop box, and he wants me to take the loss. Then Tom Wheelwright joins me for a discussion about can we abolish the property tax today on get rich education? If you like the Get Rich Education podcast, you're going to love our Don't Quit Your Daydream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free. Sign up and Get Rich Education. Com slash letter. It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor. Rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting GRE to 66866. Text GRE to 66866.   Speaker 2 (00:01:06) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.   Speaker 2 (00:01:13) - This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold (00:01:22) - Welcome to GRE! From Montpelier, France, to Montpelier, Vermont, and across 188 nations worldwide. And Keith Weinhold, in your listening to get rich education across the United States, it's fortunate for us that states with landlord friendly policies also tend to be those states where the numbers make sense to. And for landlord tenant relationships, it's the state and local policies that often trump the national ones. Now, of course, in residential real estate or any real estate for that matter. I mean, you can make money in all 50 states, of course, but there's a reason that we generally avoid certain places, and that includes California. One difficulty in California has long been the process of getting a prompt eviction. It can be hard to do that even if you have just cause, where it can take months and months, or even longer than a year to get an eviction. Let's listen in to this minute and a half clip on how tenants rights are being strengthened in California. Just a little more.   Speaker 3 (00:02:30) - Well, every month, renters in California spend a hefty portion of their paychecks on housing. And as we kick off, 2024, seven is on your side with the new laws. Renters should know to save some money and also protect themselves against eviction. Before you lock in an apartment, you usually need your first month plus a security deposit in advance. Well, now the amount you have to pay up front could potentially drop by thousands of dollars.   Speaker 4 (00:02:54) - Landlords can now charge just one month of security deposit up front, and previously they could charge two months if the unit was unfurnished or even up to three months of the unit was furnished.   Speaker 3 (00:03:05) - Renters are also getting new eviction protections. Soon, it will be harder for landlords to evict a tenant under the no fault, just cause policy. Currently, a tenant can be evicted if the landlord or landlord's family is going to move in, but starting April 1st, the landlord or their family will have to move in within 90 days and live there for at least a year.   Speaker 3 (00:03:24) - Local governments are also now banned from crime free housing policies. Cities and counties can't mandate penalties or evictions against people who have been charged, convicted or had police called on them. The ban also applies to the family members of tenants. Now, renters are not the only ones benefiting from the new housing laws. Homeowners will now have more options when it comes to so-called granny flats or accessory dwelling units.   Speaker 4 (00:03:50) - Now they can separate and either build or sell an Adu and accessory dwelling unit and sell that separately as a condo. Lawmakers think that that's something that's going to help the state's housing crisis.   Speaker 3 (00:04:02) - And with housing prices sky high, this could give many would be homebuyers the opportunity they need to afford a starter home.   Keith Weinhold (00:04:09) - Yeah. So there it is in California this year. Lower upfront deposit amounts for tenants and more protection from evictions. California landlords, they can now charge just one month of security deposit upfront. That's the most they can charge. Previously, they could charge two months if the unit was unfurnished and up to three months security deposit if the unit was furnished.   Keith Weinhold (00:04:36) - Now, on the flip side, you've got to give California credit for helping homeowners, existing homeowners. They will now have more options when it comes to so-called ADUs accessory dwelling units, which some people call granny flats, because now they can separate and either build or sell in Adu. They could sell that separately as a condo, and that might help California's affordable housing crisis and the housing shortage crisis that could give more California homebuyers the opportunity that they need to afford a starter home. So that is better for first time homebuyers in California. And whether you live there or not, this matters. California has the same population as all of Canada in between 11 and 12% of all US residents are indeed Californians. Let me tell you about a completely weird situation that I have with one of my property managers. Now, I own rental properties in different states around the US, and each of those local markets has their own manager, and you might have this situation as well. Or perhaps that's what you would soon like to do to have this situation of having properties in multiple markets.   Keith Weinhold (00:05:53) - Well, about 12 months ago now, I got a message from a property manager that manages a bunch of single family homes for me in this one particular area, and he let me know that I was not going to be seeing a rent payment for one of my tenants. And that's because the tenant paid the rent, but they paid it with a paper money order that was left in the manager's overnight drop box and the mail from that box. Was broken into by a thief and stolen. And then apparently the thief converted the money order at the bank by in this house. Unbelievable. By waiting out the name of the money order recipient, which I guess would have been the manager. And then the thief wrote in his own name on the Wite-out. Now there were three tenants that had their payments stolen from my property manager like this. So mine was one of the three from my tenant. And the thief also broke into two other real estate offices around the same time. So the thief broke into three offices total, apparently.   Keith Weinhold (00:07:01) - Now, the question that we're leading up to here is, I tell you more about this. Who is liable for this missing payment? And really, there are five parties here where you could give an answer. Is it the thief, the manager, the tenant, the bank or me? The investor who is liable for that stolen payment? Who should make good on it? Who will make good on it? Now, the amount that we're talking about is a stolen rent of $1,550. Okay. This is a rental single family home that I have. So I've been out this $1,550 for about a year now. And by the way, the tenant that had the rent payment stolen a full year ago, they still live there in their rent is now 1750, but it was 1550 them. Now I'm only making a thing of this a full year later and starting to ask my manager to make me whole now. And that's just because I've got a lot going on in life and $1,550. That's just not enough to make that big of a deal over.   Keith Weinhold (00:08:03) - But when life took a pause and I got to thinking about this some more, the principle of it is really bothersome. Wouldn't it bother you? I mean, if I let others like my manager get away with something like this, then I could get walked all over in other ways. Now, when I requested that the manager paid me because it was their drop box that it was stolen from, really, the only answer that they want to give me is that they can't pay because they don't have insurance to cover that type of loss. Well, I don't either. Now, should the bank be the liable party here for processing a payment where the pay to name was whited out, and then the criminal wrote over it with his name? And by the way, the criminal used his real name. And that's also part of how he got caught, which is unbelievable. And they also, though they do know who the criminal is because they have video surveillance of him at the bank depositing the money orders. I mean, how should he have been able to catch them? But the process of trying to get the criminal to remedy this or the bank to remedy this, those approaches have not worked.   Keith Weinhold (00:09:14) - And I think that the manager wants me to take the loss and pay because he doesn't want to take the loss. And you know, something? Admittedly, between the tenant, the manager and I, I'm probably the one that could most afford the loss, but that does not make it right now. At last, check the property manager who keeps refusing to pay up. They propose something ridiculous that I want to share with you in a moment. You're not going to believe it. Well, as you know, you have a written management agreement when you enter in an agreement to have your manager manage your property for you and that management agreement that's between you, the investor and your manager, just those two parties. And as we know, one job that your manager does for you is that they collect the rent for you. So I figured what I would go do is look at my management agreement, and I'm going to go cite that line where it says that the manager collects the money for the property owner.   Keith Weinhold (00:10:16) - But would you believe it? Nowhere in our agreement does it state that the manager collects the payment for the owner. So here's one lesson. The next time you're signing a new management agreement, see that that line is in there. I think it's just kind of easy to assume that it is. But, you know, those agreements, they're typically written by the property management company. So they might write it in ways that protect them. But here's the thing. The manager still doesn't want to pay $1,550 and was stolen from the drop box. They had proposed something that seems wild to me when I said I'm not going to let go. They told me that their plan is to ask the tenant to pay by adding an extra 150 or $200 to their monthly rent payment until the deficit is paid up. So that would be what, something like eight months of payments. Now, I doubt that the tenant would agree to something like that. If the manager is accepting rent in a drop box, it seems like it's the manager's responsibility to make sure that it's secured.   Keith Weinhold (00:11:20) - So to me, of the five parties involved here, it should be either the criminal, the bank for processing the payment that way, or the manager that should be held liable. One of those three parties, not the property owner and not the tenant. So you've got to believe that I consider firing this property manager and using someone else. And by the way, whenever you have to do that, if you ever do have to do that, and I've had to do it before, you can ask the provider that sold you the property for new property management recommendations, or you can find some new property managers by checking online forums with other clients that have actually used property managers. If you replace your manager. What that does is that your manager, they're going to lose more than just that 8 to 10% monthly management fee. They'd also lose future leasing fees. They lose any arrangements that they have with service providers to service your property, like plumbers and electricians. When it comes time for you to sell your properties that your manager manages for you, that manager might also lose the ability to collect referral fees at that, manager has the real estate license so you can make firing your manager hurt them more than you might think.   Keith Weinhold (00:12:40) - Now, I don't like hurting anyone in business. That's why I'm trying to find a constructive way to resolve this. But the manager has had a long time to make this right with me. They're probably just hoping I would forget about the whole thing. The property manager does not want to take the loss, and I will not either. I'll keep you updated on how this weird situation concludes here, but yeah. Hey, I'm an investor just like you. I want to dig in and get involved sometimes and see if something like a stolen rent payment happened with a stock that you own. I mean, you might take the loss there and you wouldn't even know that it happened. So I like real estate investing trends agency with a manager. I don't have the day to day involvement responsibility, but yet I can see a lot of what's going on with the monthly statements that they send me. Or if I have a concern, I know who I can directly contact to remedy something. And if you're a new real estate investor, please be mindful that this situation with my manager and the stolen rent payment is not typical at all.   Keith Weinhold (00:13:45) - In 20 years of doing this, I have never had a situation like this. In a few minutes here, we're going to discuss how feasible it is that America could eliminate the property tax altogether. And our guests. He's also going to tell us why he's been seeing more people like you paying tax on the gain from the sale of your primary residence. Hey, would you like to see me at breaking down real estate investing concepts on a whiteboard? Yes, a magic marker in hand with a whiteboard and an easel. Well, you can watch me do that from the comfort of your home. Over on our YouTube channel, we recently launched our explained series, and I begin it by breaking down basics and just showing you an actual net worth and actual cash flow statement, and then figuring out how you can take those and learn exactly when you can quit your job and retire. It's easier to do the numbers over there than it is here on an audio format, and later I'll whiteboard some more advanced concepts for you soon, like explaining an inverted yield curve.   Keith Weinhold (00:15:00) - Watch me on the whiteboard in our explained series. It is free on YouTube right now and our channel is pretty easy to find because it's called get Rich education. Eliminating the property tax. Next I'm Keith White hold. You're listening to get rich education. Role under the specific expert with income property, you need Ridge lending group and MLS 42056 in gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge personally. They'll even customize a plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending group.com Ridge lending group.com. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them.   Keith Weinhold (00:16:20) - It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, 686, six.   Speaker 5 (00:17:02) - This is author Christine Tait. Listen to get Rich education with Keith Reinhold and don't quit your Daydream.   Keith Weinhold (00:17:19) - A renowned tax and wealth expert is back on the show with us today. He's also a CPA, and he's the CEO of a terrific tax firm called Wealth Ability. He's the best selling author of the Mega-popular book Tax Free Wealth, which you may very well want to check out again, because he just updated that book with a third edition. I have the original tax free wealth on my bookshelf.   Keith Weinhold (00:17:40) - Welcome back to Dr. Tom Wheelwright. Thanks, Keith. Always good to be on your show. Tom, we have a lot of real estate investors listening. Why don't we talk about property tax? It applies to one whether they own income, property or whether they own a primary residence. Tom, I thought about the discussion that we were going to have today. I was thinking about it yesterday. And you know what happened? I looked out my window and the garbage had just been picked up from the curb, and this was shortly after my driveway was plowed of snow. Okay, now, if an alien came down from another planet and we described that there's a property tax in the United States, so we'll probably believe, oh, all right. Well, they're going to like, pick up your trash and like, plow your driveway for you and everything for that property tax you pay. It's like, oh no. Well those are separate services that I pay. So really what I'm getting at is maybe more philosophically in big picture, should there be a property tax? That's a big question.   Keith Weinhold (00:18:37) - Yeah. But let's do talk about what property tax funds. So property tax funds schools. It's the primary funding mechanism of schools. If you talk to an old timer they still call it school tax sometimes. Yeah it funds schools. It funds fire departments. It funds the police. So those are the three big services that have funds. This is why, by the way, Keith, when there was that group in Seattle that took over that section of the city and the government refused to send to kick those people out. I don't know if you remember this a couple of years ago. And I'm going, wait a minute, why are we paying property taxes? Because the police force and the fire department were being paid by property taxes on the buildings that had been taken over by this renegade group. Wow. And so I have a commercial property. I pay a huge property tax on that commercial property doesn't house children, so I don't send children to school, but I still pay tax for education. Why? Because I need educated employees, so I'm happy to do that.   Keith Weinhold (00:19:37) - I pay for fire protection. I pay it for police protection. I think what the money is used for generally is fine. I don't have an issue with that. The challenge I have with the property tax is twofold. One is it is a true wealth tax. If your property goes up in value, you pay more tax and it's a tax on inflation, because if you're a property goes up in value because of inflation, you pay more tax. And then second of all, you're out to sell your property. But it's also a regressive tax. So people who have no more income, they're on fixed income, they're Social Security. They have a pension plan whatever that their property goes up because of inflation, not because it's a better property and they're paying more tax even though their incomes not going up. That's my biggest challenge with property tax. That's really a good point. I had never thought about it that way before. The property tax can be a regressive tax. Therefore you pay a higher rate with a lower income, which is what a regressive tax means.   Keith Weinhold (00:20:40) - I know that some jurisdictions try to help senior citizens out with that. Maybe you both say like the first 100 K of assessed property value is exempt. But yeah, on basis you're right about that. With it being a regressive tax. Tom, I kind of look around the landscape. We deal with a lot of markets and properties and providers nationwide here at gray, and I seem to see a national effect of property tax rate of about 1%, something like that's pretty common 1% of value on a 500 K property. You're going to pay about $5,000 in property tax. Of course, that varies substantially. New Jersey is a really high one. So the states in the Deep South are really low ones. But what are your thoughts about that 1% average national effect? Think about that tax rate. Let's say you bought that property for $50,000. You bought the property for $50,000 based on your income. You bought it for $50,000. Now, because of inflation, it's $500,000. Now it's really a 10% of what you bought it for.   Keith Weinhold (00:21:34) - So it's not really 1% anymore. It's 1% of the price value. It's not 1% of what you paid for it. This is where California with prop 13 they apt their property tax. Right. If you didn't move into a new property. I loved that proposition. Frankly, I love prop 13 because what I said was, look, if you're staying the same home, your property tax isn't going to go up. Because you get no more value out of it than you did when you bought it. So why are you getting more tax even though you're not getting more value? That makes no sense. I'm not a big fan. You know, like Texas has a they rely heavily on property. Remember we have three types of taxes. We have an income tax. We have a transaction tax which the biggest one is sales tax. But it's also excise taxes. And then we have property tax. And property tax and estate tax are the only two wealth taxes we have. And property tax is a true wealth tax.   Keith Weinhold (00:22:29) - Why is it allowed. Why can we have a property tax in our hometown. But we can't have a federal property tax because Constitution doesn't allow a federal property tax. But our state constitution probably does allow a state property tax. And so robbery taxes are really interesting. I talk about in tax free wealth. Tax wealth has a chapter on property sales and property tax. It's my least favorite tax because again A it's regressive and B it's a tax on something I've never realized. The only benefit I have is that I live in it. But that benefit's not gone up even though the property tax goes up. You brought up so many interesting things there. Sure, that proposition in California is what kept people staying in their homes for a very long time. But we think about property tax and should there even be one? As we ponder that big question, what do other nations do? Because a lot of times I know you look at foreign nations tax policies. Most localities. A lot of them have a local property tax.   Keith Weinhold (00:23:27) - I don't think it's uncommon. What's interesting to me is that Missouri is looking at getting rid of their property tax and putting in a transaction tax instead. So in other words, you don't pay a tax for owning the property. You only pay a tax when you sell it. Well, that actually makes more sense. You know, in previous episode we talked about more versus United States. We talked about that whole idea of a wealth tax and realized gain. And some states do this already. California does this, Hawaii does this, Pennsylvania does this where you have a tax when you sell the property, an excise tax when you sell the property, or a transfer tax, if you will? That makes some sense because you did get the money. You actually have the ability to pay the tax. It's not coming out of your earnings. It came out of the sale of the property. So it's a tax on the sale. Frankly, if I had to choose, I would probably choose the transaction tax.   Keith Weinhold (00:24:23) - I mean, I would choose to have very little tax. I think we need fire. We need police. Those two things we absolutely need we need roads. We should have taxes to pay for those school. I'm a fan of school choice. And should we have property tax pay for those? Or is that something that we ought to pay for some other way? I don't know, there is argument that, again, that should be maybe you ought to pay that out of sales tax or a transaction tax. Yeah. I think I'm feeling your vibe on that one time that a transfer tax of real estate is somewhat more palatable than this ongoing property tax that you have to pay, because the transfer tax probably is realizing a gain there. Along with that, even though we probably don't like that piled on top of ongoing property tax, for sure. We think about property taxes, something that applies to every homeowner, whether they own income, property or not, is the pretty well known primary residence capital gains tax exemption for quite a while.   Keith Weinhold (00:25:16) - That's been 250 K if you're single and 500 K if you're married. Can you tell us more about that and where the direction of that's going? And is that adjusting with inflation or what are your thoughts. Yeah, it's not adjusting for inflation unfortunately. It's interesting. Some things adjust for inflation. Some things don't. Tax brackets adjust the exclusion for your primary residence doesn't. And your deduction for miles driven for charity doesn't adjust for inflation. But your deduction for miles driven for work does adjust for inflation. So it's very interesting to see what does Congress say. We're going to adjust for for inflation. What they don't. That came into effect under Bill Clinton prior to his presidency. You had to actually put your new house, had to be worth more than your old house is very much like a 1031 exchange where as long as you bought a new house that was equal to or greater in price than the sales price of your old house, you paid no tax but the minute you went down. So when, for example, you're retiring and you decide, well, I don't need all this house, my kids are gone, I'm going to go move into a condo on the golf course, or I just don't need that much space.   Keith Weinhold (00:26:25) - Then you had to pay tax. What happened in the Clinton era was we actually got this exclusion, which is as long as you live in the house for two years, two out of the last five years, you get 100% exclusion on the gain, up to 250, like you said, 250 single, 500 joint. I would love to see them index that. I think it needs to be indexed. Frankly, they need to adjust it retroactively because too many people got caught in this last run up where for the first time ever, I saw a lot of people paying tax on the gain from the sale of their house. Yeah, that's something that you hope that you don't have to do. We'll see if and when they do adjust that for inflation. I'm not always talked about property tax bill. Why don't we open it up somewhat more and talk more about what we discussed the last time you were here on the show with us? Well, I think we already learned then whether Americans, just over time, over the long term, are more likely taxed or more heavily taxed.   Keith Weinhold (00:27:24) - It seems like they're always
485: The Creeping Silent Depression and Current Economic Realities with Doug Casey
Jan 22 2024
485: The Creeping Silent Depression and Current Economic Realities with Doug Casey
Has America already descended into a depression worse than the 1930s Great Depression? Today’s guest, Doug Casey, suggests that we have. He joins us from Buenos Aires, Argentina, where inflation has been 100%+. Is real estate cheap, adequately priced, or overpriced? America’s national debt is so bad that we must now spend $1T annually just on the interest alone.  Keith Weinhold and guest Doug Casey explore the silent economic depression in America, discussing signs and impacts on daily life.  They compare real estate affordability across locations, viewing housing as a consumer good. Doug offers insights on Argentina's housing market, inflation, and the new president's influence.  They critique government intervention, fiat currency, and advocate for gold-backed currency, emphasizing moral values.  Strategies to counter currency debasement, like investing in durable goods and property improvements, are shared, alongside the benefits of spending on experiences and potential tax advantages of real assets. Timestamps: The silent economic depression (00:00:00) Discussion on the concept of a silent economic depression and how it may be affecting America. Real estate and property management issues (00:02:32) An unusual property management incident and the impact of inflation on real estate in Argentina. The guest's background and consistency (00:03:53) The guest's background, consistency in views, and a discussion on diverse viewpoints. Comparison of housing costs (00:04:59) Comparison of housing costs and other expenses between the Great Depression era and the present day. Real estate in the United States and Argentina (00:06:08) Comparison of real estate prices and living expenses in the United States and Argentina. Housing as a consumer good (00:09:29) Discussion on housing as a consumer good and the impact of government policies on housing and wealth creation. Comparison of housing costs and amenities (00:10:56) Comparison of housing costs, amenities, and political changes in Argentina. Impact of inflation on standard of living (00:14:37) The impact of inflation on capital, standard of living, and the unsustainability of the current economic situation. Government deficits and inflation (00:18:05) Discussion on government deficits, inflation, erosion of the middle class, and the role of the government in creating inflation. A Currency and Gold (00:20:22) Doug Casey discusses the benefits of using gold as currency and the potential impact of government involvement. Investing and Loans (00:22:42) Keith discusses investing in real estate and loans, providing insights and tips for beginners and veterans. Government Numbers and Inflation (00:24:54) Doug challenges the accuracy of government unemployment and inflation figures and predicts higher inflation levels due to excessive money creation. US Involvement and Financial Meltdown (00:27:57) Doug discusses the impact of US military involvement, potential financial meltdown, and the unstable foundation of global debt. Strategies to Counter Currency Debasement (00:32:05) Doug presents the concept of saving in durable goods as a strategy to counter currency debasement and avoid capital gains tax. Beating Inflation (00:34:41) Keith proposes spending money as a way to beat inflation and improve quality of life, while Doug emphasizes the importance of saving for the future. Doug Casey's Novels and Publications (00:36:44) Doug promotes his novels and encourages listeners to subscribe to internationalman.com and watch his YouTube channel for more insights. Improving Quality of Life and Beating Inflation (00:38:03) Keith suggests making improvements to one's home as a way to beat inflation and improve quality of life, without incurring higher tax assessments. These are the timestamps covered in the podcast episode transcription segment, along with their respective topics. Resources mentioned: Show Page: GetRichEducation.com/485 Doug Casey’s YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@DougCaseysTake Doug Casey’s blog: InternationalMan.com Doug Casey on Donahue in 1980: https://youtu.be/uAk6_74m_kI?si=qeQw0404xcTIAsOU For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Keith Weinhold (00:00:00) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Is America suffering from a silent economic depression? It's gradually creeping into your life, but you just haven't noticed. That's what today's guest believes. Where do you look for signs of this? And what do you do about it? A silent depression today on get rich education. If you like the get Rich education podcast, you're going to love art. Don't quit your day dream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free! Sign up a get rich education.com/letter. It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor. Rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting gray to 66866. Text gray to 66866.   Speaker 2 (00:01:06) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.   Speaker 2 (00:01:13) - This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold (00:01:22) - Welcome to GRE, heard across 188 world nations, including Equatorial Guinea. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. This is get rich education, the voice of real estate investing since 2014. How can your quality of life and your one and only standard of living actually be getting worse today, especially here in the United States? From your iPhone, with fast Wi-Fi to a stable electrical grid to a bounty of produce for you to select at the supermarket, well, we'll soon learn why today's renowned guest and prolific author feels like we've already entered a silent depression. He is going to make his case. We have plenty to get to with our guest. But first, I've got a problem with one of my property managers, and this is a really weird one. In two decades of doing this. This is among the weirdest. What happened a while back is that one of my ten ends that this manager manages. Okay, the tenant paid his rent with a paper money order and he placed it in the property managers drop box.   Keith Weinhold (00:02:32) - They're at their offices. The money order was stolen out of the drop box by a thief. The manager doesn't want to take responsibility for it. And I'm the one that's been out. The rent money, the $1,550. I've told the manager, no, I'm not going to be pushed around like that. So there are more details on that, which I expect to tell you about next week. It is an interesting situation to say the least. I'll give you more on the payment stolen from the manager's overnight drop box. Now today's guest will join me from Buenos Aires, Argentina, where they currently have inflation of perhaps 100% or 200% per year. We're going to talk about real estate and probably more with what he calls the silent, depressed. Now I'm probably a more upbeat, optimistic sort than our guest in general, but that does not make him wrong at all with this silent depression. But here, in a world where we've increasingly heard the word diversity a lot for the last decade, well, there are a lot of ways to think of diversity, and I like to champion some diversity of thought around here with our guests viewpoint today.   Keith Weinhold (00:03:53) - Now, I just recently saw a YouTube video of today's guest on The Phil Donahue Show in 1980. It was probably about the best known talk show that there was back in that era. And by the way, I'll leave that link in the show notes for you so that you can watch it too. And since today's episode is episode number 485, you can get the show notes either it get Rich education comp 485 or on your pod catcher. But yeah, Phil Donahue, he was kind of before my time. But yeah, really well-known show. And it's interesting to see today's guest and what he looked like back then. And from watching that video myself, I can tell you that one place where I do need to give this guest credit is with consistency. Now, does every single the world is going to end sort of thing that he says will happen? Does that end up happening? That's up for you to determine. But, you know, he has been consistent on promoting his ideals for a smaller government and more he's returning.   Keith Weinhold (00:04:59) - Guest. Let's meet him and discuss the silent depression. Are we on the verge of an economic depression known as a silent depression, where you're not aware of it? Today's guest has pointed out that during the 1930s Great Depression, the average home cost just three times the average income, but today it costs about eight times as much. The average car costs about 46% of a year's earnings back then. Today, it eats up about 85% of the annual average wage. Rent, which previously claimed just 16% of yearly income, now demands an astounding 42%. So by these metrics and others, you might wonder if the average person is actually in a worse position than during the Great Depression, which was the most challenging economic period in the last hundred years. A lot of people feel it. You might be getting squeezed, and by the end here you'll hear some new ideas for what you can actually do about it. We have a rather revered guest here with us today. He's been here a few times before to discuss other economic and real estate concepts.   Keith Weinhold (00:06:08) - He's a very popular author, often writing around the topic of crisis investing and known as the International Man. He hosts a podcast on YouTube called Doug Castaic. He's known as the International Man because he's extremely well traveled. He has residences in multiple nations today. Hey, it's great to have back on GRI the incomparable Doug Casey. Thanks. Okay.   Doug Casey (00:06:30) - It's a pleasure to be here. At the moment I'm in Buenos Aires, where I've lived part of the Earth for a long time.   Keith Weinhold (00:06:38) - Truly the international man living up to it today. Doug, I touched on housing to start with. With real estate show housing is one's biggest recurring expense in life, unless it's taxes. But today I actually think it's a valid question. Is real estate cheap in the United States? Is it adequately priced or is it overpriced? Now, depending on how you slice it, the median U.S. home value is 450 K, but if your mind shoots right to dollars like that, when you consider valuation, the dollar has been debased so much that it's a pretty poor measuring stick.   Keith Weinhold (00:07:15) - I know you like gold. A bar of gold is the same today as it was 100 years ago and a thousand years ago, and today it takes about 40% fewer ounces of gold to buy a home today than the long run 100 year average. So what we just did there is we got rid of dollars. We compared the relative cost between two real assets gold and real estate. You brought up a really good point in one of your articles, though. I think it's a better way to measure the cost of housing as a percent of one income, it takes two and a half times to three times as much of that annual income to own a home or rent a home today than it did in the 1930s. So when we think about housing costs, what are your thoughts?   Doug Casey (00:07:58) - It depends on where you are and where should I start? Right now, as I said, I'm in Buenos Aires and the apartment that I'm in here is about 5500ft² in a part of town, which is very much like the Upper East Side of New York.   Doug Casey (00:08:16) - It's called the Recoleta. Now, what would a a very classy top building with 24 hour security apartment of 5500ft² cost you in, uh, on the Upper East Side of New York, I'd say probably $20 million, roughly here in the Buenos Aires. This apartment is really got a current market price of about $1 million. In other words, 5% of what it is in New York. Yeah, costs of maintaining it are in line with that. That's point number one. Point number two is in most of the world, or certainly here in South America, when you buy something, you buy it for cash. In the U.S., when you buy something, it's usually for a mortgage. And the old saying, I'll give you the price you want if you give me the terms I want. Right. Not quite as attractive as it was just a while ago, where the average mortgage, now 30 year mortgage fixed in the US 7%, and for a while it was 8%. What do I think of the price of housing in the US? That's where most of your listeners live.   Doug Casey (00:09:29) - First of all, housing is not, in my opinion, an investment. It's a consumer good. It's very expensive. Consumer goods are not throwaway consumer goods like toothbrushes. Longer live consumer goods like a suit of clothes longer yet like a car and a house is just a longer alive consumer good. But an investment is something that produces new wealth, right? Housing doesn't it? Can? I mean, if you use it as a business. Yes. Okay, look, treat your house like a consumer. Good. That's the first mistake that everybody makes. They think it's an investment. That's going to go up. It's not. It's like a car. It should depreciate. It's got expenses to maintain it. That income that maintains you. I know you can rent it out and so forth, but.   Keith Weinhold (00:10:20) - Yeah, we champion residential income property around here. Something that I think you and I do consider an asset. But yeah, you're completely right. When you talk about the primary residence side, a home is primarily a liability, not an asset.   Keith Weinhold (00:10:32) - Why is that? Because a home takes money out of your pocket every month. Rather than putting money into your pocket every month like you touched on. Doug, before we go on about that 5500 square foot apartment there in Buenos Aires, I'm not familiar with the area. Can you just tell me a little bit more about the amenities that you have there? Are there very steep condo association dues? Is there a doorman? Tell me more about it.   Doug Casey (00:10:56) - Well, we have a doorman here in the building. We only have six apartments in this building. I have a two story penthouse, so it's probably the best apartment in the building. This area, the Recoleta. Like I said, it's like the Upper East Side of New York. We have lots of fine restaurants with short walk away. I pay my maid. We have a full time maid here. In addition, she earns $1,000 a month. Where can you get a full time maid in the US for a thousand bucks a month? Let me point something out.   Doug Casey (00:11:25) - That's very interesting. In Argentina, they elected a new president. And this is one of the most radical political changes in all of Western history. The new president of Argentina is a chap named Javier Mula. He identifies radically and openly as an anarcho capitalist. In other words, what he's interested in doing is basically tearing apart the government of Argentina and getting rid of as much of it as he can, all of it that we can. Now. Argentina is full of taxes, full of regulations. That's a delightful place to live. But if you want to do business or create wealth, it's a very bad place to live.   Keith Weinhold (00:12:10) - Well, with inflation.   Doug Casey (00:12:11) - Yeah, exactly. I mean, right now they have inflation of about, they say 140% per year, but it's more like 200 or 300% per year. You can trust the Argentine government's figures at all. You can only trust the US government's figures marginally more. But Melaye, as we talk, is firing massive numbers of government employees. It's eliminating agencies and so forth, and the government and the next step will be radically reduced taxes, radically reduced regulations.   Doug Casey (00:12:41) - So this department here is, I think, within the next five years, going to be selling for about what one what its sister on the Upper East Side of New York might be selling out. So I hope to make 10 to 1 on my money on this piece of real estate as a speculation. And it's a nice place to live in the meantime.   Keith Weinhold (00:13:01) - Yeah, with Malay in Argentina, it'll be interesting to see if he sticks with their currency moving from the Argentine peso to the dollar. It sounds like he might already be backing off of that. But getting back to your condo there, Doug. And yeah, that would be a terrific arbitrage play if you indeed bought low in the Buenos Aires market goes up, it sounds like an exceptional value you get there. We talk about our homes overpriced today, especially in the United States. Or are they underpriced? We talked about how one spends more of their proportion of income on housing today, and if that might make them trend toward this silent depression. But of course, you also get more home today.   Keith Weinhold (00:13:39) - I mean, 100 plus years ago in the United States, a new Victorian style home, it had sparse amenities and maybe 950ft². And today, an American home averages 2415ft². That's the figure. So you might pay two and a half times more of your income, but you might get two and a half times more square footage and of course, maybe like you're finding in your place there in Argentina, Doug, the average American home, it has features today that would have been considered unthinkable a hundred years ago. Luxuries, things that would have been considered luxuries back then like air conditioning and multiple bathrooms, quartz countertops, closets so vast that you could play pickleball inside them. So you're getting more home today, and it really hardly feels like a depression era lifestyle for many. But there are some less fortunate people, and inflation has widened this gap between the haves and the have nots. So what are your thoughts, especially when it comes to housing and the fact that you're getting more today? But not everyone is.   Doug Casey (00:14:37) - Because advances in technology, number one and number two, the fact that the average person is wired to produce more than they consume and save the difference, of course, we have more today than we did 100 years ago. That goes without saying, but it doesn't seem that way because even though workers are more productive than they were in the past, everything is fine. As with debt today, people talk about inflation as if it's just part of the cosmic firmament. It just happens. It doesn't happen. The government is the sole and entire cause of inflation. It does it by printing up money directly and indirectly. And what that does is it destroys the capital that you save. Americans save in dollars. Okay. You want to get ahead. You use more than you consume and you save the difference in dollars. But when the government destroys those dollars through inflation, your standard of living goes down. Now, that's been disguised through that. It used to be that when you bought a house, you paid cash for it.   Doug Casey (00:15:52) - Then many years ago, it started out with the. A five year mortgage with 20% down. Now we're talking about 30 year mortgages so that you really never own your home. Inflation is the real problem. It destroys capital. It destroys people's standard of living. The standard of living, generally speaking, in the US is going down. It's disguised by the fact that when you borrow money, you're either taking capital that people have saved in the past and you're using it for consumer goods now, or you're mortgaging your future for a higher standard of living. Today, all of that we have in the US, I think is unsustainable. And we could have either a credit collapse if they don't create money fast enough, or if they raise interest rates too high, or we can have something resembling a hyperinflation we have down here in Argentina. Either way, it's going to be very, very bad news because in an advanced industrial society like the US, to poison the money supply with inflation is asking for economic catastrophe.   Doug Casey (00:17:06) - So I think what we're looking at over the next ten years, and this is true for a number of reasons, not least of them, is the fact that Americans have elected in Washington people that are the equivalent of Jacobins during the French Revolution. I mean, they have the same ideas. I'm looking for very, very tough times, quite frankly, not just in the US, but almost everywhere in the world.   Keith Weinhold (00:17:32) - Today in the United States, compared to 100 years ago, one spends more of their income on housing and transportation and healthcare, and less on food and clothing. And yet, Doug, to your point about inflation, like dollars are such a poor measuring stick. That's why earlier, when we look at the cost of housing, I tried to discard dollars by going ahead and looking at the ratio between the home price and the gold price. I brought up the point last month with our audience that actually there's no such thing as grocery inflation or rent inflation. It's the government that creates the inflation.   Keith Weinhold (00:18:05) - So it's not landlords or grocers that are creating inflation. Those higher prices are just the consequence of the inflation that the central bank creates. And that's creating this erosion of the middle class, because those in the lower middle class and the poor, they don't have assets that benefit from the inflation. Yet they have the same fixed consumer costs that we're talking about here, like housing, transportation, health care, food and clothing. Talk to us some more about the problem in the government and how that could help lead us toward a silent depression. I know you brought up the point that the US government is running embedded deficits of $2 trillion per year, and that number is going to go much higher, if only because the interest cost alone is $1 trillion per year.   Doug Casey (00:18:49) - Yeah, people have to stop looking at the government as being their friend. It's not. It's a predator. It's a dead hand on top of society. It's certainly not a cornucopia, which is the way most people see the government. The government will give them stuff, right? The government will do stuff now it doesn't.   Doug Casey (00:19:08) - The government produces absolutely nothing that it doesn't take away first from society as a whole. So they have people have to stop looking at the government. It's a friendly big brother. It's more like increasingly the kind of big brother that you might have discovered in George Orwell's 1984. If we want to save the idea of America, which is one of the best ideas that humanity has ever had, we have to get rid of the government or as much of it as we can, and go back to the values, moral values, social values type of thing that this country had 200 years ago, what it was founded. I mean, that's my answer to the question. And the money, the dollar itself is a floating abstraction. It's a fiat currency. It's an IOU. Nothing on the part of a bankrupt government which can't even tax enough to give the money value. It just prints up more money and people out of inertia accept them. Well, there's nothing else they can use to trade Buck. We should go back to gold as being money and even a gold backed currency.   Doug Casey (00:20:22) - A currency is money. It's just a medium of exchange and a store of value. You don't need to insert the government and a central bank in between you and what you do with your fellow citizens in a country. That's why we should use gold, which for thousands of years has proven to be the best thing to use is money. It's one of 92 naturally occurring elements. And just as aluminum is particularly good for building airplanes, uranium is particularly good for making nuclear. Power plants. Gold has unique characteristics that make it unique. Almost unique. Uses money so the government shouldn't be involved in this. In all, this is a radical thought. I know that's something that most people have even thought about. They'll say, oh, this is completely ridiculous off the wall. This is unrealistic. This is the direction that the country should be going, but it's going the opposite direction at an accelerating rate. So yeah, we're looking at a nasty depression and it's been building up for many years. This isn't a recent phenomenon that's come up just since Biden, although the Biden pieces are making it much worse.   Doug Casey (00:21:37) - This is a trend that's been building up slowly for decades.   Keith Weinhold (00:21:42) - With the government having all of that debt that I just mentioned, that would create the propensity for them to create even more dollars so they can pay back their own debt, which could create more inflation and just this perpetually vicious cycle. Doug and I are going to come back and talk more about where all this is headed. When you think about the profundity of some of these things, if our currency went on to a gold standard or a Bitcoin standard, the fact that the government would not even be involved in currency issuance anymore, as you think about that, Doug and I have more on the silent depression when we come back. This is Jeffrey situation. I'm your host, Keith Weintraub. Role under the specific expert with income property, you need Ridge Lending Group and MLS for 256. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four plex's.   Keith Weinhold (00:22:42) - Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge. Personally, though, even customized plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending group.com. Ridge lending group.com. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, six eight, six, six.   Speaker 4 (00:24:04) - This is Rich dad, sales advisor Blair Singer. Listen to get Rich education with Keith Winehouse. And above all, don't quit your day dream.   Keith Weinhold (00:24:22) - Welcome back to get Rich. And we're talking with Doug Casey, the international man, about the Greater Depression. That's really a silent depression as he sees it. And Doug, I want to know where you see us headed, because a lot of people see today unemployment under 4% in the United States, we have GDP growth that's decent. The rate of inflation is still higher than the fed target but has come down substantially. The Fed's even talking rate cuts this year. So where do you see this all headed with the silent depression.   Doug Casey (00:24:54) - First of all, it's a big mistake to trust the government's numbers. If you look at the way the government computed unemployment and the way it computed inflation back in 1980, it's very, very different from the way these numbers are computed today. And if you computed them the way they did way back when in 1980, you'd find that our current unemployment is something more on the order of 10%, and current inflation is not I don't know what they say.   Doug Casey (00:25:27) - It is not 2%, 3%, 4%. It's also more like 10% or more. But with the amount of money that they've created, I mean trillions of dollars that have been cranked out of Washington in recent years. I expect we're going to see inflation go back to much, much higher levels. There's no limit to how bad it can get. And since the government has promised all these things to various pressure groups in the US, they have to be paid. The taxes aren't there to do it. The borrowing they can't borrow anymore, especially as interest rates go up. And incidentally, I point out that because of the debasement of the currency, that's a better phrase to use than inflation. The basement of the currency is an actual thing that's done by the government and its central bank, whereas inflation people think, well, maybe inflation falls on the butcher or the baker or the gasoline maker. No it's not. Those people fight the effects of inflation. Inflation is something that comes out of Washington because the government has all these pressure groups that get all kinds of benefits.   Doug Casey (00:26:43) - They're going to have to keep printing up money to pay for these things, and you're going to wind up in the same position as Argentina has wound up. In fact, it's going to be worse because unlike Argentina, which doesn't have any foreign involvements, they had a war with the Falklands 40 years ago. But there's basically no Argentine Army. There's no Argentine Navy to speak of. But the US has 800 military bases scattered all over the world. They're very expensive to maintain. The natives aren't particularly happy to have foreign soldiers in their lands. In addition to the war in the Ukraine, why were involved in a border war between two countries is a mystery to me. And now we have Israel and Gaza dusting it up. Literally, I feel sorry for both sides, but on the other hand, I don't epoxide both their houses. It's not our problem. This has been going on between these people for 2000 years, and the US getting involved in it is going to add on to our ongoing bankruptcy and maybe start World War three.   Doug Casey (00:27:57) - There's new wars popping up all over the world that are going to cost us huge amounts of money. And of course, the Defense Department spends giant amounts of money building high tech toys, which are basically useless in today's military world. It goes on and on. It's a big problem, and I suspect we're going to reach a crescendo by the 2024 election, assuming we have one. I don't know who's going to win that election if had anybody, quite frankly. So it's we're looking at chaos, political chaos, economic chaos, the potential for a financial meltdown because the whole world is built upon a foundation of debt, which is a very unstable foundation to build things on. And of course, you've got all kinds of sociological problems, starting with total and absolute corruption of the US educational system, which is spread like poison throughout society. We're seeing that now, incidentally, with the presidents of Harvard and Penn, MIT, but all of the higher educational institutions in the US suffer from the same problem. This is like a many headed hydra.   Doug Casey (00:29:10) - Where are we going to take any one instance of a problem in society? And when we examine it, you find that it's even worse than you might think. Like I was talking about education. Your kids are being indoctrinated a great cost. I think it's the University of Michigan has 161. I believe that's the number for the University of Michigan D administrators. That's the diversity, equity and
484: How to Avoid Living Below Your Means and Leverage Debt
Jan 15 2024
484: How to Avoid Living Below Your Means and Leverage Debt
Join our live, virtual event for Alabama income properties tomorrow at: https://gremarketplace.com/webinar/ Learn a lesson from a story about when I was a landlord. My neighbor was a fourplex owner-occupant, just like me. We built a fence together. He told me that he can’t wait to get his building paid off. Don’t pay down your mortgage debt. In most cases, you can invest those dollars elsewhere for a higher return. I discuss two things build wealth: 1) Leverage. 2) Borrowing against your assets, tax-free. You don’t have substantial equity in your properties because you paid them down. You have substantial equity because its value has appreciated. Today, you can report tenant rent payments to the credit reporting agencies. Alabama has low property prices and the nation’s 2nd-lowest property taxes. GRE Investment Coach, Aundrea Newbern, MBA, joins me.  Join our live event for Alabama income properties Tuesday, January 16th at 8 PM Eastern. The provider is offering 5.99% interest rates and 3% PM fees on your first three properties. Sign up now at: https://gremarketplace.com/webinar/ Timestamps: The introduction (00:00:01) Keith Weinhold introduces the podcast and mentions the topics to be covered, including lessons from being a landlord, a formula for wealth, and a focus on a lucrative property market. Keith's early real estate experience (00:02:46) Keith shares his early experience as a landlord, comparing notes with another landlord and discussing their strategies for living for free in their fourplexes. Debt mindset and wealth building (00:05:30) Keith discusses his divergent mindset from his fellow landlord, emphasizing the importance of leveraging debt for wealth building and portfolio expansion. The power of leverage and portfolio growth (00:10:08) Keith explains how he leveraged equity to expand his real estate portfolio, emphasizing the benefits of using accumulated equity to acquire more properties. Real estate market diversification (00:11:22) Keith advocates for buying properties across different states and markets to access better deals and maximize portfolio growth. Tenant management and credit reporting (00:13:42) Keith shares tips on tenant management, including the option to report rent payments to credit bureaus to incentivize timely payments and manage tenant relations. Financial perspectives and real estate strategies (00:16:12) Keith discusses contrasting financial perspectives with a CFO friend, highlighting the benefits of leveraging debt for real estate investments. Market pulse and expense control (00:20:26) Andrea discusses the market pulse for income properties, focusing on the Southeast region, and addresses the trends in controlling investors' expenses, particularly related to insurance rates. Conclusion and invitation (00:22:02) Keith and Andrea conclude the segment by discussing the migration trends in the Southeast and the importance of controlling expenses for real estate investors. Lower Property Management Costs (00:22:55) Discussion on the stabilization and decrease of property management costs due to technology and institutional investment money. Investment Timing and Market Trends (00:25:01) Encouragement for investors to take advantage of the current market conditions, including interest rates, prices, and inventory. Alabama Market and Incentives (00:28:24) Details about the Alabama market, including low property prices and incentives such as the 333 property management fee and 5.99% interest rate. Live Event and Registration (00:32:33) Information on how to register for the live virtual event to learn about the Alabama market and have questions answered in real time. Final Encouragement and Event Promotion (00:33:27) Encouragement to attend the live event to learn about the Alabama market and connect with an investment coach. Resources mentioned: Show Page: GetRichEducation.com/484 Join our live, virtual event for Alabama income properties at: https://gremarketplace.com/webinar/ For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Dr.. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, with lessons from being a landlord myself including some tough ones. A simple formula for how to get wealthy and stay wealthy without paying any taxes legally. Then we focus on one of the most lucrative property markets in the United States, and it includes an invitation to you today on get Rich education. If you like the get Rich education podcast, you're going to love art. Don't quit your day dream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free. Sign up at get Rich education.com/letter. It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor. Rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting gray to 66866. Text gray to 66866.   Speaker 2 (00:01:12) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.   Speaker 2 (00:01:19) - This is get rich education.   Speaker 1 (00:01:28) - Welcome to GRE! From Dorchester, Massachusetts, to Westchester, Pennsylvania, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. Hold in your listening to get Rich education. I trust that you're prosperous and well in a still somewhat new year here, along with my usual gray research of market trends, teams, and properties I've been serving on and writing for the Forbes Real Estate Council. Next week we have a thought provoking show on whether America is actually undergoing a silent depression that's creeping up on us, but I've got an important story to tell you today. It's really rather formative and foundational to the, I suppose, mind spring of abundantly minded real estate ideation. When I bought my first Seminole fourplex building for $295,000 about 20 years ago, you know, there was an identical fourplex right next to it. It was bought about the same time as mine, and it was bought by another guy about my age. His name's Patrick. We each had these blue fourplex next to each other, and I still remember his full name, although I'll just stick with his first name, Patrick here.   Speaker 1 (00:02:46) - He was a data and security engineer. Really sharp guy. And by the way, he only paid 275 K for his nearly identical fourplex next to mine. And since I paid 295, I felt like I overpaid. But he and I, we got to know each other a little bit. We kind of had a similar path. All right, as owner occupants, each living in one of our four units and renting out the other three and doing that right next to each other. We would compare notes as to how it was going with being an on site landlord. And, you know, Patrick and I, we both kind of figured out that we were living for free. And that's because the three $725 rent incomes, there were enough to pay our mortgages and our operating expenses on the buildings, but after that, there was really nothing left over. But we effectively had a free place to live in one of the fourplex units. Now, a few times, Patrick and I collaborated on some projects together to improve things around our contiguous fourplex buildings, and I specifically remember that one day we had bought materials at Home Depot, and then we met outside to build a fence together, and it was just this cheap host and rail style fence that we made with two by fours and painted blue is something that he and I built at the back of our buildings in order to keep vagrants from cutting through our yards.   Speaker 1 (00:04:19) - This was in Anchorage, Alaska, and Anchorage has a lot of these paved bike paths all throughout the city. And vagrants also use those to get around. And we had this bike path right behind our fourplex. Now, as you know, I am not that good at building stuff or fixing broken stuff. Okay, but this fence project that we were doing, it wasn't too complicated. And I had Patrick right there to help. Now, by this time, I had probably owned the fourplex for about two years, and I was really just starting to get this realization for what real estate investing could do for me, because I had only made a small down payment, yet the fourplex had appreciated quite a bit. This was around 2005, and I didn't even know that that effect was called leverage yet. But anyway, Patrick and I, as we're building this fence together or talking about our properties, he said one thing I can distinctly remember, and it's something that a lot of people say, and that is, I can't wait until I have this property paid off.   Speaker 1 (00:05:30) - Now, back at this time, there was no gray, yet I'm still rather fresh and new to real estate investing. This fourplex was the only property that I owned, but already this desire to have the property paid off, that is not a feeling I shared that did not resonate with me. Okay, I responded to him with something like, oh, do you think that's the best use of your money? All right, because I had a mortgage interest rate of five and 3/8 at the time, and his was probably pretty close to that too. Well, I told him that I want to keep the debt on my property because instead I could invest my spare dollars elsewhere and get a better return than five and 3/8. And that fact would be true even if my interest rate were eight or more. Really, his only reply to that is that he just simply doesn't like having debt. That's about the only answer that he had, even though it's usually irrational to. Pay off good debt like that. Now my financial freedom ideas, they were still in their nascent period back then.   Speaker 1 (00:06:34) - I sure wasn't going around and saying that financially free beats debt free or anything like that. That wasn't quite putting it that way yet. I sure didn't say, hey, don't you know that the scarcity mentality is abundant and the abundance mentality is scarce? Or that compound interest is weak in compound leverage is powerful? Or that a rich man digs for gold and a poor man is concerned with the cost of a shovel. But I already knew that if you focus on debt paydown like taking all your extra dollars to accelerate the principal pay down on, just say one fourplex building, you are just borrowing one deep hole in to the property. It's like a deep hole that might even cave in. Instead, wealth is built by expanding your portfolio size. More doors, more income, more leverage, serving more people with housing, and actually more safety because you can be in more markets that way. See, you gotta give your money multiple jobs. So the lesson is, Patrick and I were already on divergent mindset paths because by that time I had read books like Rich dad, Poor Dad, and it got me thinking differently.   Speaker 1 (00:07:54) - You know, it was the whole don't get your money to work for you get other people's money to work for you and that whole thing.   Speaker 3 (00:07:59) - I don't even think about it. I'm built a little differently, I guess, because I have had people come up to me and say, how do you do it, sir? How do you do it? I don't even think about it.   Speaker 1 (00:08:10) - Nuh uh. Geez. I, I do it because if you don't want to run with the herd, then you've got to think and act differently in order to diverge from the herd. Keep leveraging more income property. So Patrick and I built the fence that day, and I don't really know how much he paid down his building's principal balance, which is a lot like sending off your dollars to go die. But I can tell you what I did. Okay. About another year went by after building the fence. So now we're into year three of me owning the fourplex. What I did is I kept the building, but I got a home equity line of credit, second mortgage on the fourplex, and then I use those funds to make a down payment on a single family home so that I could live offsite and get some privacy from my fourplex tenants.   Speaker 1 (00:09:06) - So this is the start of me acting diversely from the herd. It was the opposite of paying down my property, borrowing against it instead. Yeah, I took more debt out on it, which is a tax free event, by the way, and you could go to 90% loan to value back then. Yes, that's back when dollars were being lent out more freely. I mean, that's what wealthy people do. What do wealthy people do when they need money? They just keep borrowing against the value of their assets. And it's a tax free event since the IRS does not tax debt. So if you want to be wealthy, that's what you do. What I also did by doing this was expand my portfolio size, increase my leverage ratio. And since I vacated one of the four fourplex units, now I had four rent incomes rather than three. I mean, that is, some don't live below your means grow. You mean stuff right there. And then two years after that, I kind of did the same thing again.   Speaker 1 (00:10:08) - I borrowed against my properties, and I used the funds as a 10% down payment on a second, more expensive fourplex building. So now I lived in a single family home and I had to fourplex buildings. And then a few years later, when equity accumulated in those two fourplex buildings, I sold them and did a 1031 exchange into two larger apartment buildings. Everything I've done so far is tax free, all expanding the portfolio, all serving more tenants, all reducing my risk despite increasing my debt, because the tenant pays the debt for me. And it was all with almost none of my own money. Instead, it's just using accumulated equity from one property and rolling it into more. Just keep rolling those same funds forward. Okay, so that is all what I'll call one line of leveraged equity. And by then I was beginning other lines because I started to buy property out of state and in multiple states. And it wasn't until 2012 that I discovered that buying across state lines is possible. It's proven. And that's where the real deals are.   Speaker 1 (00:11:22) - I mean, you might want to own some properties in your local market or you might not. But see, the thing is, is that there are 387 MSAs, Metropolitan statistical areas in the US as defined by the Census Bureau. So if you're only buying in your local market, chances are you're not getting the best deals. And another way to think about your portfolio's growth in your real estate equity management is to consider the fact that you don't have substantial equity in your home right now because you paid it down. You have equity in your home because it increased in value. So you can use equity from your home to buy perhaps ten other rental homes, as long as you can control cash flow. So it's about trading away antiquated notions of safety and security in exchange for freedom. But now most of Patrick and I's conversation about being neighboring fourplex landlords for a few years was, I would say, more anthropogenic meaning relating to human activity. Yes, that is dealing with tenants because although the discipline is called property management, it could just as well be called tenant management.   Speaker 1 (00:12:39) - And early on, this is where my naivete got exposed, like with a tenant that was laid on the rent and he said he'd pay it, but then he didn't pay rent and I had to a victim early on. I inherited that tenant from the previous owner, so I did not get to screen him. Now, three weeks ago here on our Christmas episode, when we did How the Rent Stole Christmas. That was fun. I shared a lot of my tenant relations tips with you on how to help ensure that your rent gets paid, but today you can do something that you couldn't do when I got started in real estate, you can report your tenants rent payments to the credit reporting agencies and affect their credit score. So if you are a do it yourself landlord today and you're doing your screening, you know, I would tell prospective tenants that before they even apply for your vacancy and put it in a positive light, make it known that one attribute of renting from you is that with their timely rent payments, it can help their credit score.   Speaker 1 (00:13:42) - So position it positively rather than any sort of threat, and it's going to help you get more timely rent payments if that's been a problem for you. Yes. Institute reporting to the credit bureaus, the credit scoring agencies, Equifax, Experian and TransUnion. That is another handle that you have as a landlord today. Yes. The only guarantee is that there will be some inevitable real estate problems for you. But like problems with anything else in life, your mind and my mind, we tend to inflate the significance of problems, whether it's a tenant that you just can't get to change their AC filters, or an unexpected water leak, or an overgrown tree that you have to pay an arborist to handle, or a persistently late paying tenant. Oftentimes, your fear about the problem is worse than the problem itself. In fact, it was the stoic philosopher Seneca that said, there are more things likely to frighten us than there are to crush us. We suffer more often in imagination than in reality. Gosh, isn't that so? On point? Yeah, we suffer more in imagination than we do in reality.   Speaker 1 (00:15:01) - You can say that about most any problem that you've ever had in your life. Now, some things have changed and some things have stayed the same since I began my real estate journey with that blue Anchorage fourplex. It looks like there are some signs of hope for financial education in the near future here. Formal financial education. When it was recently announced that Pennsylvania, my native state, will become the 25th US state to have a formal, standalone financial education class in high school. Hey, that's a really good start. But one constant seems to be that the dispiriting saying don't live below your means. You know, that still seems to trump the aspirational grow your means. And it's not about whether a person is intelligent or unintelligent in adopting one or the other. It's really more about having the ability to think freely. Now, today, I have a friend that's the chief financial officer, the CFO of a publicly traded corporation. He and I got together a few times last year, and he can talk about earnings reports and EBITDA.   Speaker 1 (00:16:12) - And he knows that language of business. He's a super sharp guy. But he told me that he has his house, his family's primary residence paid off. And I asked him about that, and I told him that I keep the maximum debt on mine. And why now? Your primary residence. It's not like a fourplex where your tenant pays your debt for you, but you've got to pay your own debt on your own home. Yet the mortgage rate on a primary residence is lower than it is on a rental. So the question persists is that really the best place to park your dollar? Is that where it's doing multiple jobs? You've got to consider that it's illiquid and its ROI is zero. Now, I didn't quite put it that starkly with my CFO friend, but in any case, and remember, this is a chief financial officer. He's a guy that's good with money. You know, at least he did give me this. He said from a financial perspective, he knows that it makes zero sense to have a paid off home.   Speaker 1 (00:17:16) - It just makes him feel better. And, you know, I accepted that this is not the way that I view the world. And that's okay. Coming up next in in-house chat with one of our gray investment coaches as we talk about the real estate market overall, controlling your rising expenses as a real estate investor and about real estate in the southeast Alabama, as well as an invitation for you with some pretty generous incentives that I think you're going to be excited about. I'm Keith Reinhold, you're listening to get Rich education. Role under the specific expert with income property you need. Ridge lending Group Nmls 42056. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge personally. They'll even customize a plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending group.com Ridge lending group.com. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%.   Speaker 1 (00:18:45) - Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. They've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, six eight, six, six.   Speaker 4 (00:19:34) - This is our rich dad, Poor dad author Robert Kiyosaki. Listen to get rich education with eat whine oh God put your daddy.   Speaker UU (00:19:45) - You you you you you you you you.   Speaker 1 (00:19:53) - Hey. Well, today I'd like to welcome you in our terrific investment coach, Andrea, for an in-house chat here. How's it going, Andrea?   Speaker 5 (00:20:01) - Hey, Keith.   Speaker 5 (00:20:02) - Doing good. Trying to recover from the holidays. How are you?   Speaker 1 (00:20:05) - Yeah, it's still a fairly new year here. The holidays were a few weeks ago with the advent of a new year. Andrea, a lot of people make a resolution to increase the residual income, often by expanding the real estate portfolio. So really just taking the temperature here. How's your feel about the pulse of today's income property market?   Speaker 5 (00:20:26) - It's been interesting the past year, right? We've had a lot of ups and downs. I would say what we've typically seen from the different markets across the US, particularly the southeast, which is what we're going to talk about a little bit more today. We have seen that there's still inventory out there right now. We've seen interest rates slightly go down, not significantly, but we have seen some decreases. And we're seeing pretty steady demand for income properties right now.   Speaker 1 (00:20:49) - Yeah. Mortgage interest rates down more than 1% from their peak in October last year. Yeah. Oftentimes real estate and the pulse of the market comes down to supply and demand.   Speaker 1 (00:21:00) - To your point the demand sure is not going away. We've got a population growth, and we have a lot of pent up demand from the huge millennial cohort. And then over there on the supply side, there is so much new building in the multifamily space, but there's really a dearth of supply and a dearth of new supply coming onto the market for 1 to 4 unit properties.   Speaker 5 (00:21:23) - Yes, there is. And we're seeing a lot of that growth, like I mentioned in the southeast, which are the markets that I personally invest in. And I, you know, have a lot of our listeners go to to purchase as well. So very excited about what we're seeing happen in 2024 and what that means for our investors.   Speaker 1 (00:21:38) - Yeah. Now, back at the beginning of the year, two prominent moving companies, U-Haul and United Van Lines, they released their migration report for the year ended last year. And the southeast quadrant of the nation by far, that had the most net migration growth states in their list easily.   Speaker 5 (00:21:58) - It did. And I think that's going to continue. We're going to talk about that a little bit.   Speaker 1 (00:22:02) - Well, we pull back in. Just think nationally before we go into the southeast. You know, oftentimes investors of course are thinking about controlling their expenses. That's been a big issue that bubbled up last year is probably going to continue to be one this year. So we're talking about investors controlling their expense side from mortgage rates to property insurance rates that have really spiked. So do you notice any trends with controlling investors expense side? Since you and I are active investors ourselves?   Speaker 5 (00:22:34) - A couple of things that I've noticed in the southeast and my personal investments, as well as some of the markets that we have turnkey relationships with. Keith, we are seeing insurance continue to go up just a little bit, but we're not seeing those reckless, you know, doubling that we saw over the last 2 to 3 years. So it's going up not seeing doubling. So I'm hopeful that that continues. And it's not we're not seeing that fast rapid increase.   Speaker 5 (00:22:55) - The other thing that we're seeing a lot of is a lot of our turnkey companies that we work with, we're starting to see kind of property management costs stabilize or go down in certain areas. So we're seeing that expense decrease. The other thing is we're not seeing as rapid of increases and material costs and labor costs right now still going up. Things are not, you know, going down by any means, but we're not seeing those costs go up as much either. So this is allowing the investors to have a little bit more money in their pocket than they did over the last 2 to 3 years during the pandemic.   Speaker 1 (00:23:25) - Yeah, it's not that big of a consideration for an investor on the expense side. But yes, I do see more evidence of lower property management costs. So can you talk to us more about that trend? Is it more of the infiltration of technology into the space that's bringing the cost down for property management?   Speaker 5 (00:23:44) - Such a great question. And I do think that is part of it for sure.   Speaker 5 (00:23:47) - We're seeing a couple of things here. We're seeing some of these smaller kind of mom and pop property management companies. They are stepping out. They can't really afford to keep up with the technology and all the changes that are happening in the property management space, and what's causing that happen is these property management companies that can do a little bit larger scale. They're able to get these nicer systems and this better technology and things for their investors to be able to use as well as their tenants. And we are seeing that bring the cost down of property management a little bit.   Speaker 1 (00:24:16) - You're seeing more infiltration of institutional investment money into the single family rental space and rentals up to $4 per unit. And those companies, those institutional investors have deep pockets, and they have the ability to go ahead and implement a lot of these technology systems. So that's making it so that others, including these smaller mom and pop property management companies, they need to keep up with their technology that's lowering property management costs across these mom and pop property managers are going to be put out of business.   Speaker 1 (00:24:48) - So there are so many pros and cons about institutional investment money coming into the space. And that's just one of the potential pros for everyday investors.   Speaker 5 (00:24:57) - You're exactly right. I have nothing to add to that because you were spot on with that comment.   Speaker 1 (00:25:01) - Anything else, just in general that you see across the real estate market that you really think a real estate investor needs to know today?   Speaker 5 (00:25:08) - One thing that I really think is important for people to keep in the back of their minds is I talked to a lot of our listeners who are very, very interested in dipping their toes in the water, or they've been kind of sitting to the side the last few months, kind of seeing what will happen with the market. Right now is the time for you to invest. If you wait a few months, I suspect in several of these markets you may see interest rates come down, but you're going to see prices go up and you're going to see even more of a lack of inventory. So just kind of keep that in mind as you're thinking about where to invest, how to invest and when to invest.   Speaker 1 (00:25:38) - Here in gray. We've often talked about the fact that higher mortgage interest rates actually correlate with higher prices, not lower ones. And I think some people were sitting on the sidelines saying, is that really going to be the case? Yeah, we saw mortgage interest rates triple and prices still went up. A lot of people think rates are poised to fall this year. It's probably going to put more upward pressure on prices. Andrea, when we talk about one controlling their expense side, I think something that a lot of people overlook, and this is so simple, is buying in a state or buying in a market that simply has low property prices, because that's the best indicator of giving you a high ratio of rent income to purchase price. Low priced states.   Speaker 5 (00:26:23) - That's right. Yeah. And so I mentioned this in the last couple of minutes. But the southeast and the Midwest are those two areas where you really do have those lower cost properties that even if you're an entry level investor, you can get in there pretty easily.   Speaker 1 (00:26:36) - And now we've had a lot of investor interest in Florida with all their in-migration. We still like that market, but prices have really run up there. So we've increasingly had investor interest from our followers and people that you help coach about another southeastern state.   Speaker 5 (00:26:52) - That's right. So that market is Alabama. So we have had a provider that has been offering turnkey, fully renovated properties and sometimes new construction in the Alabama market. And it has been an absolute wonderful market for our listeners that have actually invested in that area.   Speaker 1 (00:27:09) - Alabama, compared to a place like Florida, has substantially lower property prices. We're talking about you as an investor here controlling the expense side. Alabama has the second lowest property taxes in the entire nation, second only to Hawaii. So that's something that's really baked into your recipe here with income property in Alabama.   Speaker 5 (00:27:32) - That's right. I mean, there's been increases in property taxes across the US over the last few years as values come up. But of course, in Alabama you haven't seen those fast rises.   Speaker 5 (00:27:42) - And because the rates are so low, it's going to adjust kind of accordingly with the market. So you're not going to see anything creep up really quickly there as well.   Speaker 1 (00:27:49) - In general. And a lot of jurisdictions you see property taxes increase commensurately with the value of your property. And we've been in Alabama with a really renowned provider there that provides property almost statewide across Alabama, and you're going to co-host with them on a great live event for Alabama Income Properties, because right now they're really offering a good set of incentives and they have available properties. So tell us more about that.   Speaker 5 (00:28:24) - Like you mentioned, they have properties across the state. So you have kind of an option of which geography within Alabama that you would want to invest in. They have different kind of price points as well. And then like you mentioned, they have some very exciting incentives. And I don't think that I have seen an incentive this good as far as property
483: Five
Jan 8 2024
483: Five
Yes, simply "five". The number "5" has remarkable symbolism on both real estate investing the GRE way, and elsewhere in your life pathway. See how real estate actually performed when compared to other asset classes in the past year: stocks, gold, bitcoin, and bonds. Everyone knows that some commercial real estate is sagging, like office. Industrial is steady. Retail is actually booming. Recession predictions were so bad. In the past year, we had low unemployment, rising GDP, solid corporate profits, and inflation fell.  I explain what an inverted yield curve means and why it matters to you. Not only does “Real Estate Pay 5 Ways”, but the number “five” often has significance in both symbolism and numerology. Using a $40K down payment on a $200K property, I add up how “Real Estate Pays 5 Ways” and sum a lofty 46% total rate of return with today’s real-life numbers.  We have available inventory of income property. If you’re ready to buy, contact our Investment Coaches. It’s free at www.GREmarketplace.com/Coach GRE Marketplace properties are less expensive because: there’s no agent to compensate, selective investor-advantaged markets, and not dealing with owner-occupant emotions. Timestamps: Asset Class Performance (00:01:25) Comparison of various asset class performances in the past year, including stocks, global stock markets, bitcoin, treasury notes, gold, and residential real estate. Inverted Yield Curve Explanation (00:07:47) Explanation of an inverted yield curve, its significance as a predictor of economic downturn, and a simplified example to illustrate the concept. Five Ways Real Estate Pays (00:12:18) Discussion of the five ways real estate provides returns to investors: appreciation, cash flow, return on amortization, tax benefits, and inflation profiting, with a focus on the symbolic significance of the number five. Real Estate Returns Calculation (00:18:49) Illustration of a simplified method to calculate the total return on investment from a real estate property, covering appreciation, cash flow, return on amortization, tax benefits, and inflation profiting. Investment Opportunities (00:16:23) Promotion of investment opportunities with Ridge Lending Group and Freedom Family Investments, emphasizing the potential returns and benefits of investing with them. Upcoming Episodes and Conclusion (00:17:44) Teaser for upcoming episodes featuring investment coaches and discussions on property tax, and a conclusion expressing the significance of real estate returns and investment. Replacing Toilet Flappers and Spackle (00:23:56) Discussion on conservative estimates, tax benefits, and property management costs in real estate investment. Visual Explanation of Five Ways (00:25:09) Explanation of the five ways real estate pays returns and the simplicity of real estate math. Introduction to Get Rich Education (00:26:17) Overview of Get Rich Education's history, team, and independent voice in the market. Real Estate Market Inventory (00:28:40) Discussion on the slowing real estate market, available inventory at GRE marketplace, and the importance of free coaching. Ethical Use of Other People's Money (00:29:51) Explanation of the formula for starting or growing a portfolio of buy-and-hold properties, emphasizing the use of a small down payment. Benefits of Off-Market Properties (00:31:13) Explanation of competitive off-market property prices and the advantages of buying direct, investor advantage markets, and property management solutions. Safeguards in Property Purchase (00:33:57) Importance of property inspection, lender appraisal, and independent third-party property inspection in property purchase. Free Coaching and Financial Readiness (00:35:03) Emphasis on the free coaching at GRE marketplace, the absence of upselling to paid courses, and the importance of financial readiness before investing. Disclaimer and Host Information (00:36:05) Disclaimer regarding the content of the show and information about the host operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/483 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Speaker 1 (00:00:00) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. I compare real estate to how other asset classes have performed. Give you a simple example to help you understand an inverted yield curve. Describe the significance of the five in your life. Then help find a match with the right income property for you today and Get Rich Education. If you like the Get Rich Education podcast, you're going to love art. Don't quit your day dream newsletter. No, I here I write every word of the letter myself. It wires your mind for wealth. It helps you make money in your sleep and updates you on vital real estate investing trends. It's free! Sign up and get rich education.com/letter. It's real content that makes a real difference in your life, spiced with a dash of humor rather than living below your means, learn how to grow your means right now. You can also easily get the letter by texting gray to 66866. Text gray to 66866.   Speaker 2 (00:01:09) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.   Speaker 2 (00:01:16) - This is get rich education.   Speaker 1 (00:01:25) - Welcome to GRE. From Johannesburg, South Africa, to Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold and you're listening to Get Rich Education. This is where your educational major is real estate investing. And your minors are in real estate economics and wealth mindset. That's what we do here. It all culminates with your doctorate in financial freedom. Before we talk about real estate, we recently had a year that just ended. And to know their real estate is the right place for you long term at times, especially after a year ends, we need to compare that to other asset classes. So what actually happened last year? Elsewhere in the investing world? Stocks, the S&P 500 was up 25%, even though for most of it invest in stocks, you're only paid one way, not five ways, but still 25%. That's a pretty healthy return on tech companies accounted for most of the gains, yes, what they call the Magnificent Seven that is putting the team on its back.   Speaker 1 (00:02:33) - Yeah, these are the seven tech mega caps Microsoft, Apple, alphabet, Nvidia, Tesla, meta and Amazon. They surged more than 75% last year, while the other 493 companies in the S&P 500 have gained just 12%. Yes, the Magnificent Seven now accounts for nearly 30% of the index's entire value. That's per the Wall Street Journal. And speaking of the S&P 500, it just added a prominent new member a few weeks ago, and that is Uber zooming outside, the United States, global stock markets had their best year since 2019. Bitcoin was up 157%. Yes, you heard that right. 157 as the crypto winter thawed out last year, the yield on the ten year Treasury note was up just eight basis points. That's virtually unchanged. Very little movement. And see, that's also why mortgage rates ended the year at the same level they started at, which is near 6.5%. That is because mortgage rates track that ten year note. Gold was up 11%. And here in residential real estate it was up 4%.   Speaker 1 (00:03:51) - That's on the median price of existing homes. But it's only through November, not the full calendar year. Yes, real estate is such a laggard with reporting statistics. So almost everywhere y'all look prices are up up, up. Yes. It's not just for those essentials on your last grocery store run where they're up okay. The value of your assets fortunately is up too. And really, one of the few places that pain was felt was in the commercial real estate market. I think you know that. But let me tell you how that pain is positioned to get even worse shortly here. All right. U.S. office vacancy rates hovered around 20% last year. Now, that's a rate that was actually worse than during the 2008 financial crisis. More companies told workers, hey, get back to your desk, okay? Calling workers back to the office at Salesforce, Amazon, Blackrock. But still, card swipe data in America showed that only about half as many people are making the trip into the office compared to pre-pandemic numbers.   Speaker 1 (00:05:03) - And you've got some companies like meta, the parent of Facebook and Instagram, they're getting creative and actually subleasing their office space to other tenants. But not all commercial real estate is struggling. The retail vacancy rate fell to just 4.8% last year. Retail is not dead, and that retail vacancy rate, that is actually the lowest in 18 years since the real estate firm CBRE started tracking it. And big box stores and malls, shockingly, are. So back. There's also a big real estate demand for warehouses, data centers and industrial space, thanks to the recent surge of AI and that pandemic induced e-commerce boom. But we probably haven't seen the worst of it yet because, okay, within the next four years, about two thirds of commercial real estate loans will likely be refinanced, with interest rates much higher than they were the first time around. The last thing that we have to recap for you that we learned from last year is all of those god awful, dreadfully wrong predictions. A recession. So many predictions were so wrong.   Speaker 1 (00:06:27) - Instead, we had historically low unemployment and solid corporate profits. Inflation fell. Now there is one prominent financial media platform, one of the nation's biggest. I won't mention their name, though you've surely heard of them. This agency gave zero room for any other outcome because they predicted a 100% chance of a recession last year. 100%. All right. They really look wrong. Although let's be mindful, technically, due to a statistical lag, we often don't know if we are in a recession until after the fact. But if you think that we were late last year, understand though, not absolutely everyone was a Debbie Downer, say back in late 2022, let's give some credit where it's due. Moody's Analytics chief economist Mark Zandi, he was one of the few experts who kept the faith for a soft landing. He pointed out the recessions typically come out of the blue, and that there was a good chance the fed would get inflation under control without taking the economy. Now, one condition that a lot of people pointed to saying that a recession should be here by now, is that dreaded condition that you probably heard of? Maybe.   Speaker 1 (00:07:47) - Maybe not. But that is known as an inverted yield curve, which is deemed as a harbinger of bad things to come, usually recession. Okay, now that phenomenon inverted yield curve. That sounds intimidating. I think when you hear that. Okay. And what that means in inverted yield curve is that the interest rate on long term bonds is lower than the interest rate on short term bonds. And that that right there is what's often a bad sign for the economy. Now, if what I just said right there kind of makes you scratch your head and say to yourself, what was all that gobbledygook again? And why does it matter? Why don't I give you a simple example of an inverted yield curve? Then you can actually remember. What I'll do is make this personal to you. A bond is just a fancy name for a loan. Let's say that you need a loan for $10,000, and you've got this great friend, a lifelong and trusted friend, and he will let you borrow the money from him.   Speaker 1 (00:08:56) - Now, if you take out the loan and tell him that you'll pay him back as quickly as next week, which is our short term bond. In this example where your friend might not charge you any interest on the loan at all, then just say that he wanted you to pay him a small 1% interest rate. Okay, see, your rate is low because there's not that much risk for him since you'll pay him back next week. That's not too long for him to wait. But say that you want to take the same $10,000 loan from that friend, but you're going to pay him back for ten years. An entire decade? Well, for him to want to make you that loan, he's going to need to get compensated more with a higher interest rate for the heightened risk in that long payback period. Okay, what if you move or if you aren't even alive in ten years? All right. That entails more risk for him, the lender. So therefore your loan comes with a 10% interest rate that you've got to pay your friend.   Speaker 1 (00:09:57) - This is analogous to the long term bond. All right right there I've just explained the normal yield curve condition right there. That's normal. The longer someone lends money out for to you, the more that they must get compensated. And that should make sense to you that that is a normal world. One week was 1% interest, one decade was 10% interest that you'd have to pay. That's normal. However, in inverted yield, curve simply flips that normal world upside down. It inverts it. It's the opposite of the arrangement that I just described with your friend. So this is where the shorter duration that one makes a loan for the higher interest rate they're compensated with. See, that's a weird world. That's an inverted yield curve. Because if your friend thinks that the world is going to crash soon with a recession or a depression, or Earth gets hit with an asteroid soon, well, then he'd want high compensation, even on a short term, week long loan, because freakish things are happening. And that's an inverted yield curve.   Speaker 1 (00:11:10) - And that's why having one like we have recently signals something dire, like a recession coming to many. Now, at the top of the show, I talked about the returns of various asset. Over the past year. Of course, that is only in terms of capital appreciation. That's all that most investors think about simply, did it go up or did it go down? It's an important question, but around here we know that real estate is a special asset class because when it's bought, right, it can pay you five ways at the same time. When it comes to the numbers, that number five, that is symbolic of why we do what we do here at gray. So let me talk about really, the existential and symbolic virtues that resonate with you across your life and the meaning behind that special number five. And it's about more than our real estate pays. Five ways, which is any listener knows is appreciation, cash flow, return on amortization, tax benefits, and then fifthly, inflation profiting.   Speaker 1 (00:12:18) - And I'm holding up five fingers right now, as I say this, according to numerology, the number five symbolizes freedom, curiosity and change, a desire to have adventures and explore new possibilities. But it signifies more than just high energy and excitement. In numerology, the five negative traits can include talking too much and overconfidence. Okay, that's what numerology says. Five ways real estate pays is a freedom formula. So that's actually numerology appropriate, I suppose. Now we don't do astrology or tarot cards here. Nothing hokey, concrete evidence though I will venture to guess that at least in some other facet of your life, five resonates with you. You've got five senses. Each one of your limbs has five fingers or five toes. In Christianity, there are the five wounds of Jesus Christ. If you're Muslim, there are the five pillars of Islam. Muslims pray to Allah five times a day. In Judaism, the Torah contains five books. Aristotle said that the universe is made up of five classical elements water, air, earth, fire, and ether.   Speaker 1 (00:13:41) - A lot of more popular folklore celebrates the five like Indiana Jones sort, the Sankara stones. They were five magical rocks. In music. Modern musical notation uses a musical staff made of five horizontal lines. Sports. The Olympic Games have five interlocked rings. When you shake hands to close your next real estate deal, you're each using those five fingers. In law, five is what renders a verdict. Five is the number of justices on the Supreme Court of the United States necessary to render a majority decision. There's a show on Fox called the Five and near the top of our Don't Quit Your day dream letter. We've got the five. Five is defensible in your investment fortress, just like the Pentagon is a five sided building in D.C. known for defense. Real estate pays five ways. And hey, even that phrase is five words. And it's a concept that was first introduced to the world right here on the Gerry podcast in 2015. So we're done with the touchy feely stuff, but look around five. It has a lot of meaning in your life.   Speaker 1 (00:15:02) - And in fact, the next time someone asks you why you're invested in real estate, hold up five fingers and confidently tell them that real estate pays five ways. What better way to affirm this than to come back with a concrete example shortly on how this helps you navigate toward financial freedom in your life, in ever changing real estate markets, we're going to use today's real life numbers in summing up the five. I hope you enjoyed me whipping around the asset classes in explaining what an inverted yield curve really means to you. More next, I'm Keith Reinhold. You're listening to get Rich education. Role under the specific expert with income property, you need Ridge Lending Group and MLS for 256. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's. Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge personally. They'll even customize a plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending group.com Ridge lending group.com.   Speaker 1 (00:16:23) - You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate. And I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2 jobs income. They've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, six eight, six, six.   Speaker 3 (00:17:26) - This is Rich dad advisor Ken McElroy. Listen to get Rich education with Keith White.   Speaker 3 (00:17:32) - Hold and don't quit your day dream.   Speaker 1 (00:17:44) - Welcome back to get Rich education. I'm your host, Keith Wayne. Hold. You've been with me here every single week since 2014. A lot of you have anyway. You're listening to episode 483, and I'm deeply appreciative for you, the listener, coming up here on the show and in house chat with one of our investment coaches, Doug Casey, on the Silent Depression. And like I told you last week, soon, a return of Tom. We write when we discuss whether the US can just completely do away with and delete the property tax. Wouldn't that be amazing? Around here? We like to say that when we provide good housing to people, we can help abolish the term slumlord. But your real estate investing venture isn't solely altruistic. There are generous profits, too. And, you know, it's incredible to me how more real estate investors don't even understand the answer to basic questions like how do I get paid in? How much do I get paid, and where the sources of where that money comes from.   Speaker 1 (00:18:49) - And really, these are all huge reasons for why you and I are even investing in real estate at all. So I love doing this. Let's add up the five ways and come up with a total ROI. And it's always a little awe inspiring to do this, even with conservative numbers, to see how high your return gets. And let's use the year 2024 sort of numbers. And it's kind of funny in a sense. I dislike real estate elements where down the outside tenants might get difficult to manage on the inside, and you're certainly going to have some problems, including some weird problems along the way in your investor journey. So although in a sense I dislike real estate, rather I like what real estate does, for me, it's largely about those giant returns. So let me demystify real estate returns with a quick breakdown. And I think you know that the five ways are not for fix and flip property. This is just with buy and hold investing on a property that's ready to go, ready to be moved into turnkey.   Speaker 1 (00:20:03) - Here's a simplified method the concrete numbers. Right. Let's say that you make a 20% down payment. In this case that is a 40 K initial investment on a 200 K income property in just a year. Here's what can happen. The first way appreciation. You've got that initial property value of 200 K and appreciation rate of just 5%. Where your new property's value is now 210 K, you just experienced an equity gain of ten K divided by your 40 K initial investment. That is a 25% return to you just from the first of five ways you're paid. That is due to the magic of leverage, because you got the gain on both your down payment and the money that you got to borrow from the bank. The second way is with cash flow. Let's say your rental income is $1,600 a month, but things are running a little thinner on this property, and your expenses are $1,500 a month with the mortgage and all the operating expenses, that gives you leftover cash flow of only 100 bucks a month. That's 1200 bucks a year that's still divided by that same 40 K initial investment you made.   Speaker 1 (00:21:13) - All right. That is another 3% return to you. The third way you're paid is that ROA return on amortization. Also known as principal pay down. All right. Will you have a 160 K loan on this property? We'll use an 8% interest rate. So all you got to do is search for a loan amortization table, bring it up, and you'll see that you have a monthly principal reduction of about $110 a month. That is $1,320 a year that your tenant paid down, not you. So right here, your $1,320 equity gain is still divided by your same 40 K skin in the game down payment. That is yet another 3% gain. Then the fourth of five ways are your tax benefits. All right. Your property value is 200 K. That's how much your property is worth on the day that you bought it. And your building value might be about 70% of that. And the other is in the value of the land. So therefore you're building value. Or that improved portion of the property is worth about 140 K will annual depreciation is about 3.6% of that.   Speaker 1 (00:22:30) - That gives you a $5,000 tax depreciation benefit. If you're at the 25% tax rate, that's 1250 bucks a year divided by your same 40 K initial investment, that is another 3% return to you just piling on. And then the fifth and final way is your inflation profiting you profit from inflation as your debt gets debased by inflation. This is the least understood of the five ways you've got that 160 K loan amount at a 3% inflation rate. That gives you an annual debt debasement of $4,800, again divided by your same 40 K initial investment. This is another 12% return to you. All right. There we go. Now let's add up all of those ROI from the five ways real estate pays. You had 25% from appreciation plus 3% from cash flow, plus 3% from your ROA, plus 3% from your tax benefit, plus 12% from your inflation profiting that equals a 46% total ROI that you have from this property. I mean that right there. That is exactly why you're a real estate investor. That is exactly why I'm a real estate investor.   Speaker 1 (00:23:56) - What do you think it was for to replace toilet flappers and spackle? Drywall? Hey, this stuff's important, but I don't personally do it myself. That's the kind of stuff I dislike because I'm not good at it. Now, at a number of steps when I went through that, you'll notice that I was conservative or rounded down. I used an 8% mortgage rate and 3% inflation. Although there are numerous tax benefits, the only one I considered is tax depreciation. Your seller can often help pay your closing costs if you make a full price offer. So to keep it simple, I did not roll closing costs into that. See, all these numbers are realistic. While paying a property manager is accounted for. And as a reminder, that was only in year one. Your subsequent years returns. They are going to gradually diminish as equity accumulates in your property. And of course, that's an example. You are real life numbers. You're really going to be better than that or worse than that. And yes, we could get more precise numbers if we like, discuss numbers from 20 spreadsheets and really made your head hurt.   Speaker 1 (00:25:09) - But we're not going to do that. And you do enough years of this, and you're going to have hordes of people lurking in the viewers of your Instagram story about your latest month long vacation in the Maldives islands. Okay, now, if you need to see what I just explained visually and your newer to our platform and you haven't seen that yet, I also explain the five ways in a free mini video course so that you can really get a good look at all those numbers and where they come from. And you can get that at get Rich education. Com slash course. The cool thing about real estate math like I just did there is it simplicity. All we did there was addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. It real estate. I've never had to do trigonometry, calculus or use exponents. Okay, it's not about complicated maths. All it is is knowing what numbers to use. And in fact, that's probably why I'd expected. My skills are pretty rusty in calculus and trigonometry right now. I don't need to use that stuff.   Speaker 1 (00:26:17) - You can do all this with a pen and a napkin at. Lunch. And that is a big part of the beauty of this. So here at gray, we brought the world in awareness to this for about nine years now, and shortly after show inception, we helped lead you to the actual property addresses that are conducive to this because you kept asking me, where can I actually find properties, where this works? And then more recently, we added free coaching to help get you started or to help you get your next income property. And by the way, if you've ever wondered, there are eight of us that are here on the team at gray, and we often recruit new team members. We do that through our newsletter subscribers like you, because you already understand abundantly minded concepts like financially free beats debt free. We are not owned by any parent company. So when you tell a friend about the show or you interact with our sponsors, you're really supporting an independent voice here. And that's not to disparage the big corporate in any way.   Speaker 1 (00:27:26) - That's just simply not who we are. It was recently reported that Warner Brothers and Paramount are in early merger discussions. Well, gray won't be facing scrutiny from antitrust regulators anytime soon. And our sponsors, like you hear on our ads here during the show, they are ones that I use myself. We don't produce AI generated material here either. This is organic, original content, and a number of people on our team here have been with us for a while. Our investment coach Andrea since 2020, nourish since 2021, and our podcast Sound Engineer and has helped produce this show that you're listening to right now, every single week since episode three, in 2014, almost since inception, nine plus years now, Gray Marketplace is where you'll find the income properties for almost two years now. To make it even easier for you, you can even find and select from our two investment coaches on that page in order to help you out. And since our coaching is truly free, please respect their time. They're not there just to chat.   Speaker 1 (00:28:40) - It is for action takers now. Seven weeks ago, we did an episode here on how the real estate market is slowing it down. And of course, when we're talking about slowing down, the slow real estate market is in terms of the number of sales or the sales volume, not as many homes are transacting as usual. For one thing, there's always a lag around the holidays, but there's also an overall lack of American housing inventory, as you probably know well, I am happy to tell you that we do have inventory at GRE marketplace and a good selection. Everything from an older, renovated Ohio single family income property for a sales price of, say, 110 K to Alabama and new build single families for 300 K to Florida. New build duplexes for 500 to 600 K to four plex's for upwards of $1 million. If you want to benefit from everything that we discuss here on the channel, the actionable way for you to do that is with our free coaching. Yes, I'm talking about you. Make yourself that long term.   Speaker 1 (00:29:51) - Five ways profiteer. By not focusing on getting your money to work for you. That is a fixed mindset paradigm shift to ethically getting other people's money to work for you. Like we discuss here. That is, you simply put a small down payment on an income producing property. I mean, that's most of the formula right there. That's it. We're talking about how you can start or grow your own portfolio of buy and hold property, not fixing flips. It's often entry level property which is what makes a good long term rental property that's either already renovated or it is brand new. Oftentimes it's single family homes. Up to four plex is sometimes some apartment buildings. They're now a great marketplace. You can either shop off market property yourself, or have the free help of one of our great investment coaches. And your coach learns your goals, guides you, and makes it easy for you. They help you shop. The great marketplace properties, tell you where the real deals are nationally, and sometimes they tell you how to get improbably low mortgage rates when new home builders make those available, and your coach if you don't have one already, they give you the insights, the news on the latest good deals.   Speaker 1 (00:31:13) - For about a year now, a lot of new home builders have got to keep building and they have to keep moving properties to stay in business. So that's why amidst. Higher mortgage rates. You can get an interest rate for income property in the fives now because the builder buys it down for you and or even get a year's worth of free property management. Yeah, builders are often able to buy down your mortgage rate for you, because what they do is that they buy big chunks of money from lenders in bulk, where instead, if a lender does it directly with you, they have more documentation that they have to do with each individual investor for their smaller loan sizes. That's how builders are buying down your rate. They buy money in bulk from lenders. Now you'll see that grey marketplace properties are often less expensive than you'll find elsewhere. For properties that are turnkey and ready to be tenant occupied. Like this. Now, how are these off market property prices so competitive? Really? Where's the advantage come from here? Well, first of all, there is no real estate agent that the seller has to compensate with a traditional 5 or 6% commission.   Speaker 1 (00:32:30) - Instead you get to buy direct. Secondly, investor advantage markets just intrinsically have lower prices than the national median. They tend to be in the Midwest, southeast and Inland Northeast, and they come with a property management solution. And thirdly, the providers in our network, they're not mom and pop flippers that provide investors like you with just 1 or 2 homes a year. Instead, these are builders and renovation companies in business to do this at scale. So they get to buy their materials in bulk, keeping the price down for you. And really a fourth reason that you tend to find good deals at Gray Market Place is that you aren't buying properties from owner occupants where their emotions get involved, and they sometimes expect irrationally high prices for some offbeat reason because the living room is where they open their Christmas stockings every year for a decade or something like that. Now, just like buying your own home to live in, these income properties come
482: Will You Pay This Gigantic Proposed Tax?
Jan 1 2024
482: Will You Pay This Gigantic Proposed Tax?
After discussing the direction of rents, learn about an ominous new tax that’s proposed. SCOTUS and Congress are considering a tax on unrealized gains.  For example, if your gold or furniture appreciates from $5K to $8K, would you have to pay a tax on the $3K gain, even if you keep owning the gold or furniture? Tom Wheelwright from WealthAbility joins us to discuss this. Though this is considered a “wealth tax”, the middle class would have to pay it. The tax case being heard is called “Moore vs. United States”. We expect it to be decided this year.  Tom & I discuss how few people understand marginal income tax rates’ progressivity. The last dollar that you earn is taxed at your highest rate. The first dollar that you earn is taxed at your lowest rate. Timestamps: Factors Driving Rent Growth (00:02:45) Inflation, lack of inventory, expired rent freezes, shifting workforce, demand for single-family homes, high employment, barriers to homeownership. Promising Development in Multifamily Construction (00:05:33) Multifamily construction reaching a 15-year high, new supply likely to slow down apartment rent growth, inclusionary housing requirements for new construction. Current Rent Trends (00:08:04) Single-family rents up 5%, apartment rent growth at 3%, highest rent price growth in the northeastern quadrant of the US. Supreme Court Case: Moore v. United States (00:11:47) Overview of the case, implications of taxing unrealized gains, arguments for and against the taxation of unrealized income, potential impact on everyday investors and citizens. Challenges of a Wealth Tax (00:18:07) Discussion on the problematic nature of a wealth tax, potential impact on individuals and assets, comparison to estate tax, and potential implications of a wealth tax on various assets. The tax on unrealized gains (00:22:43) Discussion on the potential impact of a proposed wealth tax on unrealized gains and the complexities of taxing assets while they are still held. The regressive nature of wealth taxation (00:24:38) Exploration of the regressive nature of wealth taxation and the challenges in implementing and managing taxes on wealth. Tax laws and equal protection (00:27:19) Insights into how tax laws apply equally to everyone and how billionaires benefit from better advisors to minimize tax payments. Tax rate misconceptions (00:30:15) Clarification of misconceptions about tax rates, including the progressive nature of tax tables and the impact of earning more income. Tax strategies and investment decisions (00:32:17) Exploration of tax benefits related to investment strategies, including the impact of deductions and the suitability of IRAs for different investment types. Updates on tax laws and book release (00:34:57) Announcement of the third edition of the book "Tax-Free Wealth" and the incorporation of major tax law changes into the updated edition. Wealthy's tax contributions and future episode preview (00:36:03) Discussion on the tax contributions of the wealthy and a preview of a future episode topic on the feasibility of abolishing property tax. Conclusion and show updates (00:37:13) Closing remarks on upcoming content, including the landmark episode 500, and a call to subscribe to the show for valuable insights. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/482 For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE’ to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith’s personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, and it's a new year. We talk about what drives the growth of rents. Then a gigantic new tax is being proposed that could fundamentally change virtually every current investment you own and future investment you make today on Get Rich education. When you want the best real estate and finance info. The modern internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls. And you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies. Disclaimers are. At no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of hours myself. It's got a dash of humor and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple. Text GRE to 66866. And when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Day dream letter and it wires your mind for wealth.   Keith Weinhold (00:01:18) - Make sure you read it. Text grey to 66866. Text GRE to 66866.   Speaker 2 (00:01:30) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold (00:01:46) - What could go from Beckley, West Virginia, to Boise, Idaho, and across 188 nations worldwide. You're listening. To get rich education, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. What about this new proposed wealth tax? Should there be one? How big is it? As you're gonna find out, you would probably even have to pay this huge new proposed tax. If you're in the middle class. That's all. If it gets legislated, that's coming up shortly. But first, last week I told you about the future direction of home prices. As I revealed our 2024 National Home Price Appreciation Forecast this week, let's talk about the direction of rents in America, higher prices for everything that could make tenants feel tapped out. Although we have now had a few months of wage growth picking up before we get into the rent trend, this is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold (00:02:45) - So focusing on the education part as we often do, what are the factors that drive rent anyway? What drives rent growth and how did rent get to feel so expensive for a lot of people? Well, the fast growth of rent costs since 2020 that derives really from a number of factors, including inflation and also including a lack of inventory. There is a shortage of vacant rental properties in general and of affordable ones in particular. You've also got those expired rent freezes and expired discounts. I mean, landlords are making up for pandemic era rent freezes and steep discounts in urban areas. And by doing that, what they've done now is hiked up prices on new units and on lease renewals. Another factor that drives rent growth is what's happening with the workforce. And we've had a shifting workforce. As the pandemic increased, the popularity of remote work, you had deep pocketed renters that sought out larger homes, often single family homes, in areas that had previously been pretty low cost. So this migration then it increased the rents in suburban and outlying areas more than it lowered them in urban ones.   Keith Weinhold (00:04:06) - And see that trend overall that yielded a net increase in rents. And then another factor is that you have more demand for people to live alone. Prospective renters are increasingly looking for studio in one bedroom apartments, driving up demand for available housing, and that drives demand for space and therefore rent growth, because living alone, that means that rather than two people demanding to live in one unit, two people demand two places to live. And of course, high employment like we've had. That's another factor that drives rent growth over time. And the last factor that I'll share with you as a rent growth driver are barriers to homeownership. Yeah. Prospective homeowners, they remain renters for longer because they face high demand and low inventory on those existing homes. Like I've talked about before, higher mortgage rates. And you had those supply chain disruptions that really began a few years ago. Most of those are alleviated now, but that made it more expensive and more difficult to construct new homes. And then as mortgage rates rose starting back in early 2021, housing prices, they cooled off faster than rents, and rents are finally rising at a slower pace now then they did in the past two plus years.   Keith Weinhold (00:05:33) - And so those are the factors that drive rent growth. Now. Back in 2022, a promising development began, promising for those that are looking to pay less for housing in the future anyway. From their perspective, and that is the fact that multifamily construction reached a 15 year high nationwide, and that new supply is what's likely to slow down apartment rent growth. And since many cities require really this inclusionary housing, that means that a portion of new housing needs to be affordable. Well, therefore, new construction also means new affordable housing. Again, that's predominantly on the apartment side. But see, many families, they want a single family home. They want that privacy. They want that separation. They want to live in something that feels like their own, but they can't afford a single family home to buy. So they rent one. And, you know, I thought Zillow recently pointed it out really well when they said that single family rentals are the new. Their homes. They appeal to those that are priced out of buying.   Keith Weinhold (00:06:49) - And now you can see this reflected in rent growth. So now that we talked about some of the longer term drivers of growth, let's talk more about the current period of time. We don't have Q4 numbers in yet, but through Q3 we can see that the growth of single family rents is 5%. All right. That sounds healthy. And it is. And that's per John Burns research and Consulting. But that 5% increase is down from two years ago when it had its recent peak of between 9 and 10%. So again, right there, we're just talking about the annual growth rate in single family rents. It's about 5% through the latest quarter that we have stats for now. Compare that 5% to apartment rent growth, which is about 3% today. Even in an economic slowdown, rents rarely fall. And by the way, if rents ever do fall, I call it falling rents. Or perhaps I use the phrase declining reds for some reason. If price is contracting anything, some economists and analysts and others, they refer to this as negative growth.   Keith Weinhold (00:08:04) - I don't tend to use the term negative growth. That's confusing. I just call it a decline. Okay. Negative growth. That makes you wonder if someone means slowing growth rates or do they mean an outright decline. So negative growth is an oxymoron like jumbo shrimp or black light or friendly fire, or telling someone to act natural, or perhaps a working vacation? Okay, that's what negative growth means to me anyway. Now rents, whether it's single family rentals or apartments, when you blend those together regionally, you're seeing the highest rent price growth in the northeastern quadrant of the United States, which oddly contains a good chunk of the Midwest. So you just look at the northeastern quadrant of the United States. So leaders in red growth we're talking about here Providence, Rhode Island, Hartford, Connecticut, Cincinnati, Columbus, Saint Louis, Milwaukee and Chicago, they are all on that list. The highest rent growth blended together, single family rentals and apartments. By the way, two months ago I was in Hartford, Connecticut for the first time in a while.   Keith Weinhold (00:09:18) - Nice skyline there. Yeah, Hartford. You have an impressively urban feel for a city that's not among America's largest. Now. You're seeing slight rent price declines this past year in a lot of their really big, swaggering, broad shouldered gateway cities New York City, San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose, and also in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm not sure what's going on in Raleigh, North Carolina, with their sluggish rent growth, but here, as testimony to the fact that rents don't often fall far, all of those bigger cities that I just mentioned, these big losers, they're only down between one half of 1% and 1% for year over year rents. So to review nationally in the last year, single family rents are up 5% and apartment rent growth is up 3%. But both have slowed from a couple years ago. Can the federal government tax your unrealized gains, also known as a wealth tax? We're going to talk about what that means. But how far could this go? If your home appreciates a 30 K in a year, but you want to keep living in it, might you have to pay tax on that gain even though you don't sell it, you just want to keep living there.   Keith Weinhold (00:10:41) - Could that even apply to you? If you own furniture that goes up in value, but you kind of like dining at that nice mahogany table of yours, could you get taxed on that every year? If the value of that goes up? And then you would have to ask the question, where are you supposed to get the money from in order to pay the tax? Might you have to sell that asset in order to pay the tax on it? So let's discuss a wealth tax that is tax on your unrealized gains. A renowned tax and wealth expert is back on the show with us today. He's also a CPA and the CEO of a terrific tax firm called Wealth Ability. He's the best selling author of the Mega-popular book Tax Free Wealth, which I have on my bookshelf. And a third edition is about to come out. He's going to tell us more about that. Hey, welcome back to Dr. Tom Wheelwright. Thanks, Keith. Always good to be with you. It's good to be with you, too.   Keith Weinhold (00:11:47) - And I think it's going to be especially informative and maybe disturbing this time, Tom, because really, it's been called the quadrillion dollar question. This is where Supreme Court justices decide whether the federal government can tax certain unrealized gains. And what this means is that these are assets that you own, but yet you haven't sold yet. So, Tom, tell us about this Supreme Court case hearing it known as more Maori versus the United States. Yeah. So this is a couple that invested in a company in India. They owned, I think, 12 or 13% of the company. And when the 2017 Tax Act was passed, what we commonly think of as the Trump Tax Act, one of the provisions was that in order to go to a taxation where you couldn't just put off bringing back the money all the time, they said, well, look, we're going to have a one time tax, we're going to have a tax on repatriated earnings. Some of you have heard that term repatriated earnings as if they came back.   Keith Weinhold (00:12:56) - Okay. So whether or not they came back as if they came back. And if you're a shareholder of 10% or more, then you have to pay that tax in certain situations. And so the laws actually had to pay the tax. This was the tax on the income of their corporation. So the corporation could have its own tax. But this is actually a tax on the shareholder. So that's actually where this is interesting because is similarly frankly we have taxes on partners and partnerships. Right. If you're a partner in a partnership you're taxed on that income. Whether or not you get the money in a corporation, typically you're not taxed on the income unless you get the money. That's a dividend. If you don't get the money, the corporation's taxed, but you aren't taxed. This was a situation where it's a corporation, but the shareholders were taxed. The Moores are arguing, well, this is equivalent to a wealth tax. And it's actually why I think the Supreme Court took this up, because it's not a case that you would normally think the Supreme Court would agree to hear.   Keith Weinhold (00:13:57) - Well, I think where this concerns people is, could this open up things so that the everyday person and the everyday investor could have to pay these unrealized gains on assets that they own, that have not sold? I mean, even their primary residence, if that appreciates from 500 K to 550 K, are they going to owe tax on that 50 K even if they plan to continue to stay there and hold on to it because they want to live their. That's what certain members of Congress would like. Liz Warren would absolutely like that to happen. Bernie Sanders absolutely like that to happen. I actually think that's why the Supreme Court took up the case, is because I don't think the Supreme Court believes that that should happen. I think it's going to come out. They're going to narrow what a wealth tax can and can't be, because I think they need to because they need to say, look. So we've had oral arguments already. So we expect a decision out sometime this year. But basically the arguments by the IRS were we do this all the time.   Keith Weinhold (00:14:56) - We have taxes, unrealized income. We have mark to market on stock trading. So that's a tax on unrealized income. We have a tax on partnerships. That's a tax on realized by undistributed income. The reality is this tax the Moores are are arguing against is a tax on realized but undistributed income. I think that's where the Supreme Court would come down. I'm actually willing to make a prediction on this because I think the Supreme Court say, well, this isn't a wealth tax, and a wealth tax would be prohibited under the Constitution because that would have to be based on population. A property tax, for example, is a wealth tax. Then the US that's reserved to the locales. We can't do a federal tax. We couldn't have a federal property tax. And that's, I think, what the Supreme Court is going to say. You can't have a federal property tax that's prohibited by the Constitution. You now have local property taxes because the locals can do whatever they want. But unless you have it apportion among the states based on population, you'd literally have to have a poll tax, which is a tax per person, as opposed to a tax on the value of what a person owns.   Keith Weinhold (00:16:07) - That's the difference. So there's a lot of complications. That's a direct tax versus indirect tax, all that kind of stuff. I think the important thing is to understand that there are realized, but undistributed income, that's like a partnership, right? You can be a partner in a partnership. The partnership really uses the income. They get the money, but they don't distribute it. As a partner, you're taxed on your share of that income. It has been realized you just haven't gotten it yet. This is, by the way, very similar to the Moore situation. That money, that income was earned that just hasn't been distributed yet. And the question is the fact that they haven't distributed, does that mean they can't tax it? The odd thing is, is I think the Moores are going to lose the case. Moores will lose the battle and win the war. This is a small amount of money, right. So this is obviously the Moore is not trying to save money. There's way more money being spent on legal counsel than the tax.   Keith Weinhold (00:17:03) - So the Moores aren't doing this. This is people behind saying this is a good test case. We need to put a stop to the wealth tax conversation of Liz Warren and Bernie Sanders and Wade. And this is a case to do that. That's really what kind of the background is. That's all the background of this court case is what's really going on and what's really going on is the Ninth Circuit made it sound like any taxes find. And the Supreme Court said, well, we're going to take this up because I think a majority thinks we don't think any tax is fine because clearly under the Constitution, not any taxes. Fine. We're going to help define that. And so I think we're going to get some better clarity on what kind of taxes Congress can enact. Ultimately, I think the Morse will lose their case. Yes, the more clarity is good. I mean, the Supreme Court knows that this is a contentious issue, and I sure want any discussion to get shut down. It might lead to everyday investors and citizens paying tax unrealized gains.   Keith Weinhold (00:18:07) - I mean, with that example that I gave you of, say, a couple that owns a 500 K home and they want to keep living in it, but it just happened to go up to 550 K. I mean, where would they get the tax to pay on that. Well yeah. Well that's another problem. You can talk to any fixed income retiree and they'd have the same complaint about property tax. Sure. Yeah I don't know where this could go. I mean, what if you own rare furniture in your home? Okay. This furniture is worth more at the end of the year than it is at the beginning of the year. But yet you didn't sell it. You just continue to use your furniture. I mean, could that get taxed? It's a terrible slippery slope. And, you know, they talk about, well, don't give me I'm billionaires. I'm going okay. But let's face it, the income tax was only supposed to be on billionaires, okay. The equivalent of billionaires.   Keith Weinhold (00:18:51) - You had to make a lot of money to be subject to income tax in 1913. Yeah okay. So we know it's going to come down. It always does the tax law. You know politicians never like to give up any tax money. They always are trying to apply to more and more people more and more income. So it is problematic. You know, the idea of a wealth tax is very problematic. You know, several European countries have tried it and they've all failed. France tried it. And people like Gerard Depardieu, um, the actor, he just left France, you know, people leave now, what Bernie Sanders wants to do, this is fascinating. He wants to put an exit tax. So if you do leave, you still have to pay the tax. You actually have to pay a tax to leave. So basically what Trump is, he wants the Berlin Wall, but he wants an economic Berlin Wall. Right. That's what he wants. He wants an economic wall. He's going to complain about the wall bordering Mexico, but he's going to put an economic wall around everybody and not allow you to leave.   Keith Weinhold (00:19:50) - It'd be like somebody, California, putting a wall literal wall up and saying, you can't leave California, right. That's kind of the idea that. And if you do leave California now, California, in fact, they talked about it in 2023. And actually, interestingly, the governor defeated it. They talked about imposing an exit tax. So if you leave California, you have to pay a tax for leaving. And fortunately he defeated that. He crushed that. I mean, not sure why he did that, but he did understand the states have more power to tax than the federal government does. Federal government is limited in its taxing power, and it's really limited by the 16th amendment that allowed a pure income tax. The question and this is the argument that Sanders and Warren are making, is that it is income. And the reality is we do have billionaires who pay no tax. And the reason they pay no tax is because their stocks, which are public, go up in value. They're not required to sell them.   Keith Weinhold (00:20:51) - They can borrow against them and they never pay tax. So the argument is, well, wait a minute, that's not fair. That's a decent argument. Honestly. The challenge is yeah, if you could really say we're going to limit it to billionaires and we're going to limit it to publicly traded stock, you're fine. Not a big deal. But it never gets limited. And that's the problem. It never ever gets limited. Once the camel gets its nose under the tent it just right going on taxation all over the tent piling on and not get pulled away. They don't remove layers of taxation. It seems once the president is sent somewhere, it just seems like it continues to spread. Tom, if I could just give one last example on this. If this ever goes to where unrealized gains get taxed and how absurd this all is, just say you. Oh, gold and gold goes from $2000 to $5000. You don't sell it, you just keep holding on to it. And then you'd have to find the income to go ahead and pay the tax.   Keith Weinhold (00:21:48) - Well, you'd have to sell gold. And that's actually what they want. They actually want you to have to sell the gold. Oh, they would want gold to be sold to sell the gold. I want you to sell the stock. So the goal behind the wealth tax is to force you to sell these assets and pay the tax. Okay. Now we have a wealth tax. It's called an estate tax. That is a wealth tax. And there are businesses. There are families who have to sell their family home. They have to sell their family business. They have to sell their family farm because of the estate tax. And so this is another argument that the proponents of wealth tax are making is, wait a minute, we have a wealth tax already. It's called an estate tax. If we can have an estate tax, why can't we have a tax currently? Why do we have to wait until somebody dies to impose that tax? It's an interesting argument. I'm not a policy guy. I'm not one to make policy.   Keith Weinhold (00:22:43) - I want to explain policy. It is a question. If I can have a tax on wealth when you die, why can't I have a tax on wealth while you're alive? Sure. And I thought through the scenario as well. If the river is a tax on unrealized gains, whether that's your house going up in value or furniture or gold after you would pay this unrealized tax, then in the end, when you do want to sell it, what if you sold it for less than you thought it was worth? And then how the heck do you go back and adjust that for the tax that you are now in it? And it actually gets worse than that. Keith. Let's say we have a boom market this year and next year we have a recession. Are we going to get the money back? Exactly. And that's the hardest part because the answer is clearly, no, we're not. I mean, because think of it right now, we have a provision in the law that taxes capital gains.   Keith Weinhold (00:23:35) - There's an argument capital gains should never be taxed because especially at least if there are a capital gain because of inflation, they should never be taxed. If you actually went up in value, yes, they should be taxed. But if they're just inflated in value, why are you paying a tax on something that's not worth anymore than it was five years ago that got the same value? It's just got a different price. But we have a capital gains tax. But think about this. Let's say you have a year and you sell stocks and you have this big game. And the next year you have a loss because you sell stocks because everything went down well. You don't get to use those losses to offset your income. You have to carry those losses forward forever until you have gains again, you don't get go backwards with those losses and recapture the gains that you paid, you know, last year. So we already have this problem built into the system. And now all you'd be doing is exacerbating it. The other problem with, by the way, is that it's very regressive in that you're talking about people taxing their wealth.   Keith Weinhold (00:24:38) - Now, you can put limits, right, which is what you would have to do. And you say, well, look, your personal residence, we're not going to tax, you know, we're only going to tax the excess, which is, by the way, what income tax originally was. It was only excess investment income. You were never taxed on wages. When the 16th amendment was passed there was no tax on wages. We didn't get a tax on wages until 1944. You go, well, we'll exempt all these today. What about tomorrow? And that's always the issue. I'll tell you, the taxes just keep piling and piling on. We're going to talk more about taxation with Tom. We're right when we come back you're listening to University Kitchen. I'm your host Keith Reinhold. I render this a specific expert with income property you need. Ridge lending Group Nmls 42056. In gray history, from beginners to veterans, they provided our listeners with more mortgages than anyone. It's where I get my own loans for single family rentals up to four Plex's.   Keith Weinhold (00:25:39) - Start your pre-qualification and chat with President Charlie Ridge. Personally, though, even customized plan tailored to you for growing your portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending group.com. Ridge lending group.com. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six, 686, six.   Tom Wheelwright (00:27:02) - Anybody? It's Robert Elms or the Real Estate Guys radio program. So glad you found Keith Reinhold and get rich education. Don't quit your day dream.   Keith Weinhold (00:27:19) - Welcome back to cash. We're talking with Tom Wheelwright, the author of the Mega-popular book Tax Free Wealth. He runs the terrific tax firm called Wealth Ability. Tom, you often like to talk about how really, in a lot of cases, tax laws can apply to everyone, but do business operate really under the same tax laws as a middle class or us in the middle class? Really take a page out of what billionaires are doing. How can we best do that? So we have a wonderful aspect of the Constitution, a clause called the Equal Protection Clause. And what it says is taxes have to be applied equally to everybody in the same situation. So what we're billionaires are different is they have better advisers. That's where they're different. So their advisors know all the rules of the tax law. They pay them hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars a year to make sure that they're paying the least amount of tax possible.   Keith Weinhold (00:28:14) - Presumably, all they're doing is following the law. Those same laws apply to you and me. So that's why, for example, somebody who owns a single family home that they rent out to an unrelated person is entitled to the same tax benefits as somebody who owns a 200 unit apartment complex or somebody who owns Trump Tower, as an example. Okay. You get the same tax benefits in the same situation. The challenge that, you know, the average person has is not enough access to those advisers and a misunderstanding of how the tax law works, because this whole idea will the billionaires get different tax than the average person is just false. That's just a falsehood that is propagated by a certain part of the public in a certain part of the administration that wants to add another tax to billionaires. The reality is we all get the same tax. The difference is, is that if you're a billionaire, let's say you made $1 billion a year and you paid $400 million in tax. You still have $600 million left over, which is more than 99.999999% of people have in a lifetime.   Keith Weinhold (00:29:25) - So it doesn't really hurt you. It doesn't change your lifestyle. Whereas if you put a 40% tax on somebody who makes $200,000 a year, now they're going from 200 to 120, and that has a major impact. And you're really just explain one reason why in the United States, we have tax tables set up that are what we would call progressive, where the more you make, the more you pay. But yeah, you're right, Tom. There are just there's such a knowledge gap out there. I have something happen to me. I bet it still happens to you a lot. Or I will talk to people and they say something like, well, I don't want to earn too much money this year. I'll go from the 24% tax bracket to the 30% tax bracket, and they act like all of their income is then going to be taxed at 30%. So they don't want to earn too much. So I'll tell you a funny story. Yeah. So I used to teach a class every month we'd have anywhere from 30 to 100 people in the class.   Keith Weinhold (00:30:15) - And I'd always do an example and I'd say, okay, let's say that you earn X amount of dollars and you get a $5,000 bonus. What's the cost of that $5,000 bonus from a tax standpoint? And I would say a good 40% of the class would come up with about $8,000. Was the cost of the $5,000 bonus, because just like you say, well, that puts me in a new bracket there for all my income is being taxed in the new bracket. No, it is progressive, meaning the last dollar you earn is taxed at the highest rate, but the first dollar you earn is taxed at the lowest rate. And that's important distinction because we're never taxed on more than right now. It's actually 40% because we have net investment income tax. So you're never taxed on more than 40% of your income by the federal government. You just can't be. So you can make whether you make a, you know, $1 million a year, $1 billion a year, $10 billion a year, your maximum tax rate is 40%.   Keith Weinhold (00:31:14) - That's an epiphany to some people to learn that tax rates are progressive, like you just explained with that