Jul 29 2021
II. Creating Dangerously 1: Foundations and New Leaves
Pip and Destiny explore the ups and downs of the London creative arts scene, and introduce Creating Dangerously. Joined by multidisciplinary artist Mandisa Apena..Please note this episode contains discussions of misgendering, ableism, trauma, homophobia, transphobia, and racial profiling..Host Bios:.Destiny Adeyemi (they/them) is a poet. They are a Slambassadors 2018 Winner, a member of The Octavia Poetry Collective and was in the 18/19 Barbican Young Poets programme. They live in London performing at local open mics and poetry events. Instagram/Twitter: @poetryndestiny.Pip Fenton-Cripps (they/them) is a non-binary creative specialising in the field of East Asian and Japanese Studies. They were awarded the Frederick Richter Memorial Prize for Meritorious Work in the field of East Asian Arts, Music and Literature in 2019. Pip is also a digital artist, exploring synthesis of classic shōjo with darker elements. Instagram: @hello_cactus_flower .Guest Bio:.Mandisa Apena is a part-time vegan from South London. They work in poetry, sound and visuals. They are founder are host of poetry: hot 4 u. Their poetry collection ‘and twice as bitter’ was published in 2016. Instagram: @trashhhhash, Twitter: @archaicisms.Rosie Mills Eckmire is an artist and curator from South London. She is interested in the therapeutic properties of creativity and enabling art to be accessible for all. Instagram: @rosieldn, Twitter:@teenagegma.Produced by Arden Fitzroy (they/them) @ArdenFitzroy.The RISE Collective Website: www.therisecollective.org.ukTwitter: @RiseAmplify Instagram: @therisecollectiveuk.Music: Pembroke.Links and references:.London Plant Exchange for Black Solidarity on FacebookDJ Freedem: @FREEDDDEM on Twitter and @djfreedem on InstagramTurf Projects Croydon: https://turf-projects.com/Subject to Change: New Horizons: https://sites.barbican.org.uk/newhorizons/#section-IyNblDZKnO.Transcript:.Arden: Everybody welcome! You’re listening to the AMPLIFY podcast, brought to you by The RISE Collective. We champion creatives and build collectives at the forefront of social change.I’m Arden Fitzroy, Lead Producer, and this is Queer Joy, the second series of AMPLIFY. This series was created by the next generation of creative leaders and changemakers. These are our own stories, on our own terms.Pip: Hello, everybody. On this episode of amplify, we're bringing you Creating Dangerously with me, Pip.Destiny: And me, Destiny. This is a podcast where we platform emerging artists talk about the art we're loving, and discuss the difficulties of creating art in these hostile times.Pip: And hostile times they are indeed. But given this is our first episode, we wanted to take just a little bit of time to introduce ourselves and really set the foundations that this project is going to grow from. So this episode will be interviewing an emerging artist asking them about their work and their connection to different creative and cultural spaces in London. Hopefully, we'll be getting a little snippet of their work as well. So watch out for that.Destiny: We've got a lot in store for you, me and Pip: will be hosting artistic check-ins each episode, where we'll discuss topics relating to what it's like living the arts in London, and maybe even discuss some of the art we've been consuming at the moment. It's going to be our own cosy creative corner.Pip: I'm very excited about the artist check-ins. But in light of that, D, you want to start us off with a little self introduction?Destiny: More than happy to I'm Destiny, they/them. I'm a fat black queer poet. I'm currently studying and grinding in this London. I'm really interested in political poetry, social change, sci-fi, cartoons and baking to just throw it all in there. And I guess I'm just excited to like, discuss all the art we've consumed during the pandemic.Pip: Yes, living in London surely is a grind. But I know Destiny. And I know that they're very humble and aren't plugging themselves as much as they should be. But that's what I'm here for. Destiny: No, I'm not.Pip: Never are, never are. Everyone check out Fat, Black and Sad on the Barbican website right now or after you finish listening. Our friend Sumayyah did all the filming and editing and it really showcases some of D's incredible poetry. But hello, I’m Pip my pronouns are they/them. I'm a non-binary queer tucked away in a little corner of London. At the moment, I'm just trying to get through my final year at uni during the absolute wildness that is the COVID pandemic. I studied Japanese language and culture. But I do some digital art on the side which I will be plugging later. So watch out. Even though my main life focus is language and cultures, the London art scene really does just have a special place in my heart. In my experience, it's been a really welcoming and dynamic community for me, and I've made some incredible friends and connections just showing up to events.Destiny: Yeah, you're right. The London art scene can be really exciting. And it has some amazingly talented people. And I think that's what makes it more sad, like the lack of support for the artistic community. It's unfortunate because it's a space for growth and exploration. I remember in the middle of lockdown seeing the government's reskilling campaign, and it had this ballerina and it said, Fatima's next job could be in cyber. Just seeing how blatantly undervalued the arts are is just like really sad. And I think that heavily related to the inspiration of this podcast.Pip: Yeah, trust. It was such a blatant push towards tech overall. And yeah, I hate it made my skin crawl. But yes, we did actually struggle for quite a while deciding what to call this podcast, especially for me, like, I'm not really great at naming things. But I was super happy with the name that we landed on. I do have to give credit to my older sister because she introduced us to this essay by Camus that just like, perfectly hit on what we were both feeling about the arts at that time. Like, deep in the middle of lockdown. Watching the government just tear into the arts and seeing all of our plans and all of our social lives just melting.Destiny: Honestly, that's like really true. The name of the podcast comes from Camus’s essay called Create Dangerously, where he's lamenting how society was receiving art in his day. And a quote that really stood out to us was the outflanked by artists of today concerns the necessity of their art, hence their very existence. It's this idea of society completely undervaluing art. And that causes artists self-doubt, doubting if art really matters when it's necessary to question, teach, disrupt and reflect.Pip: Yeah, 100% like, yeah, I mean, how many times in your life have you heard that art isn't a real career? Destiny: Oh, so many times, so many times Pip: So many times, despite the fact that every human made thing that we interact with has been designed by an artist or a team of artists at some point. And this instability and undervaluing of our in society that Camus was really stressing about is still so systemic today, despite it being completely misguided. And I really do think can we said it best when he highlighted that the basic principle of free creation is the artists’ faith in themselves. And so that's what we want to highlight on Creating Dangerously, we want to create a platform for emerging artists to showcase and explore their work to feel like their expression is valid, and a space free from the weight of social media clout and societal expectations.Destiny: And that perfectly encapsulates it. So over the course of Creating Dangerously, me and Pip are going to be interviewing emerging artists, asking about how they create and the threads of pull this creativity together. And some episodes, we might just talk to our artist selves.Pip: Basically, we're trying to create a little audible map of the current London art scene for you folks tuning in. Destiny: Exactly.Pip: But you know, like, what always really baffled me when I went to events about London was just the sheer number of ridiculously talented people here. And how if you really get platformed, how few really get the chance to sit down and explore that are in a comfortable non-judgmental space that they can really just carve out for themselves. So that's what me and D want to do. We love you arts London, and we want to give you back just a little bit of space.Destiny: So yeah that actually perfectly segues into the first artistic checking of craving dangerously, where me and Pip check-in on what we've been getting up to, or seeing in the art scene. Kinda like a maintenance report covering our art, current discussions and other random interesting art things. For our first episode, and because we're setting the scene, I wanted to ask you what the art scene means to you, Pip?Pip: Okay, well, the London art scene is kind of where I gained a lot of my confidence and first felt like a sense of belonging in a group. I had a pretty bad time making friends as a kid because I don't know I’m a little bit strange. You know, you can vouch for that. Destiny: Yeah, yes I can.Pip: I'm not super socially awkward or anything. Or at least overtly. I'm not overtly socially awkward. But yeah, people just get a bit confused by the things I say. And I always thought when I went to university, was surrounded by people who would just as passionate about Japanese and Japanese culture and studying as I was that I find my people, but no, I was very, very wrong. I was very much wrong and I did not fit in. But that is where I met you. Actually know I met you at your poetry event round. Much before then, was actually much before. And you did not remember me? No, no, you did. No, I met destiny. Poetry then complimented that poetry. They had amazing green hair at the time, looked sick. And I went up to them. I was like, wow, your purchase so amazing. It really spoke to me. And Destiny was baffled.Destiny: Because I was very confused. You want to tell them what my home was about and why you were confused home was about colourism in the black community. So I was very confused because if you don't know Pip is white. Very white. So I was I was more than a bit confused.Pip: I meant that your delivery and your performance was so emotive that even though I didn't understand anything about that, because of course, it does not affect me. I was like I I feel this, you know, like, this person has done exactly what art has the most capability to do, which is communicate, you know, I felt this communication.Destiny: Honestly, I'm thankful that we went to the same university like literally perchance and then Pip got to explain. I did.Pip: Yeah. You would have been baffled your whole life like what was a white person doing here like? But yeah, so very luckily I met Destiny before at an event at Roundhouse. It was fantastic. And then I bothered them I badgered them for a year, because they would not reply to me. As you can see, I'm very persistent and strange. I did not get the cue to leave you alone. But yeah, so now we're here now we're here. So clearly, I did something right. Clearly, but outside of you, and a couple other people at uni, I was very alone. I didn't really make that many friends on my course. And I didn't connect in the way that I thought I would. But then I started going, going to more arts stuff with you, arts events with you, and with my ex at the time, and all this kind of stuff. And I thought, wow, like, when I'm at these events, and I open my mouth. Other people don’t look at me, like, a bird is just flown out of my face. You know? They look at me like, Oh, yeah, that person has got some some shit to say. And I'm like, I do have shit to say I have so much shit to say. And most of its new, most of it's ridiculous, but I'm here for it. And if you're here for it, let's be for it together, you know? And yeah, it was it was great. Like, starting to move through the art scene and meeting people through you and meeting people through my friends who attended theatre school, I just started to believe that people could actually accept me for who I am. Like, I'd say things and people could laugh and agree with me. So yeah, even though I don't create as often as I sometimes feel I should I feel really welcomed and really loved within the art scene in London. And honestly, during these lockdowns, tiers, tier 47 that we are now entering in in the year of our lord 2021. I missed it badly. You know, I miss the art scene madly. But yeah, enough about me. What about you do what does the art scene mean to you?Destiny: Oh, I'd say I have I had like a really interesting experience. I got into poetry quite young. I found it really helpful to like challenge and channel a lot of the emotions I was feeling. I got into open mics and events and that like just helped even more like, people encouraged me, they supported me and I found similar to you like-minded people. That understood what I was going through. And that was really affirming. But I don't want to glamorise the scene, you know, like, it was really helpful for me, but I don't want to like act like there were no problems. Like, there are issues like, there's issues with funding, issues around race and sexism, trauma, accessibility and more. Lord. But I know that it's honestly endless, but like, I care about the scene enough to acknowledge how it has supported me. And desire improvements, you know?Pip: Yeah, trust, like, the sense of community is very vital, especially because London is so massive that at times it can feel really, really lonely. But if you're close to something and you love it, you need to know how to criticise it with love. Exactly, you know, demand change with love. And, you know, you mentioned there being issues in the poetry scene with race, sexism, accessibility, etc. And I'm not a poet. In case you hadn't noticed, but I was wondering, like, what did that look like for you? And what kind of issues did you notice?Destiny: It’s something that I know that we're most likely, we'll be talking about in more depth later on. But I've seen this around accessibility. Like, there were so many times when my younger sister couldn't come to my events, because the event wasn't physically accessible. And that was so frustrating imagine and, yeah, and it just makes me think how many other like, physically disabled poets or people with mobility issues, just can't access events, like not even to mention the need for captions or trigger warnings.Pip: Interestingly, with that, I was reading something the other day. And it was talking about how a lot of people who are physically disabled, or neurodivergent have found the COVID pandemic and everything going online incredible for them, because they're accessing events and spaces that just were not there for them before. Like, those were not spaces for those people. And suddenly, honestly, it's really true, yes, suddenly, they can access it. And I'm sat here complaining, because I'm not someone who has to struggle with those things. I want to be around people, but it's really started the conversation of how, how can we do both? You know, how can we? How can we make things accessible for people who really need that human contact, that energy? And how can we also extend those spaces to people who physically can't get there? How can we open those spaces for them? And for people who are, you know, neurodivergent, or, you know, can't get out of the house? How can we create space for them, you know, virtually, so that they can access it?Destiny: It is honestly, like, you've literally hit it on the head. Like, it's true that there are people who have been working to make spaces more accessible, and have been working on captions and making sure the trigger warnings are used. But it kind of feels like it's only in this moment of crisis, that people have really gathered up arms and just been like, okay, we actually need to get this together and actually do something for everyone. And make sure as many as much people can access things as possible.Pip: And that just shows how ableist so much of our society is and that it takes for a global pandemic, for people to start considering that there are people who, for a myriad of reasons, could not access those services and those events before like that's it's shocking, actually, when you put it that way. It's true. It's really true. And you you mentioned trigger warnings, as well, which, you know, definitely I, I feel that I feel that even now, there is I feel like people put trigger warnings more with the online events, because they have more time. And they have more space. Yes. But yes, at live events, live events. Sometimes that just did not, it did not go that way.Destiny: It's very true. I feel like for a lot of people, it's an afterthought. Like it's not, it's not even a kind of like, malicious intent kind of thing, like people just don't remember, or it's like, not on the agenda, or it's just not really seen as important. And that is a big worry for me, like, I have been to events and been triggered. And felt like I am actually being like really overwhelmed. And I don't know what to do right now. Because I wasn't given any prep for this. Yeah. Yeah. Not as like that. That for me is like really worrying, like as a poet, to give something to an audience and to not have them ready for that. And for them to feel overwhelmed and not have any way to put that. Like, that's really scary.Pip: Yeah. And especially like you're moving through this scene as a poet as well. So there must be an element of stress of like, Okay, I'm, I'm triggered, I'm not feeling great. I need to remove myself from this situation. But how is that going to make the poet feel? How do I leave without feeling like all eyes are on me? You know?Destiny: Yes, yes, yes, yes. It is a really difficult one to balance because even at events where there are trigger warnings, there might not be the space for you to just leave. Well, you might not feel comfortable to just leave. Like it's a really complex situation. But I think that having spaces like this where you can actually talk about it, and not feel like you're just you're just bashing a scene because you hate a scene. But you care about a scene and you want it to flourish? Yes. Is really like what, like a big step in this process.Pip: Yeah, definitely. Because, you know, I've been at events and there are events that I love, you know, I go to regularly. And I had this one experience of being an event where this poet was up there. And I don't remember what they said exactly. Now, I just remember they said something, and it really triggered some deep trauma in me. And unfortunately, I wasn't with someone who was very supportive. At the time, I didn't feel like I could reach out. So I felt very alone in that moment. And I felt awful. I felt so bad because I didn't want to disrespect the poet. I knew that what they were talking about was their experience, and I want people to feel like they have the space to explore their trauma, explore things that are uncomfortable as well, because I don't think art should be sanitised. I think it's really important to, to evaluate and to express difficult experiences in life. But, dude, I just didn't know what to do with myself. I didn't know how to look after myself in that moment. And it didn't feel like there was much of an infrastructure or there were people really enforcing that. People coming up for open mics need to know that because the people who've organised the event don't know what they're going to read. They have to be responsible for their own content, and the effect that that might have on the audience.Destiny: Yeah, you're really right. And I think it really comes full circle, because I have been to good events that have been like, yes, we use trigger warnings. Yes, you can leave. And we've also booked another space where you can relax. And we have people on hand that can help you. Wow, that's, like funding. Yeah, that's amazing. But that's funding. And that's funding is like a completely other issue in itself. Sure. Because I know that I’ve gone to events literally like in a pub. And the only reason they can exist because the pub owner is nice and doesn't like make them pay. It’s a, it's a wide spectrum. And, and it's hard. Yeah. And I appreciate the fact that it's hard.Pip: And you know, the thing is with the places which are often underfunded is that's where you get the biggest aggregate of marginalised people, you know, who tend to be dealing with not only just personal trauma, but societal trauma, like economic trauma, trauma of being alive in a society that—Destiny: Doesn't want you, you know, yes. Honestly, honestly, you're so right. Lord, I'm remembering like the issue with pronouns as well. So both of us use they/them.Pip: Yes, our pronouns are in the dictionary. If you need white men to confirm it for you, they done have.Destiny: Oh, Lord oh Lord. Yes, very much. So the data is valid. Pronouns are just like, they, they are such a big thing. Like, I've been to some really good events where pronouns are treated as naturally as names. And some others were the hosts misgenders the performer on stage. And I'm just like, I know that not everybody wants to have to, like, you know, correct someone on stage right? Before you're about to perform. Like, and you shouldn't have to. And that's always disappointing to me. Because it's like, I don't feel like people see it as an important thing of how to create, you know, a comfortable open environment.Pip: That's what we need. Yeah. Can you can you imagine how destabilising that is for the performer to not only have to feel comfortable enough to share their work, which is a very, very private thing for some people, and can take a lot of courage, but then to get up on stage in front of a bunch of people they don't know. And to have someone invalidate them just right there, you know, right before they're about to share something very personal, or very loved. Very difficult. That just must be horrendous. Like, I get upset when I get misgendered. And, you know, yeah, I'm there putting my they/them in the brackets, you know, like, brave enough to start doing that. And I still get called the wrong pronouns. I understand like, okay, guys, cool, cool, cool. Love that, love that. My name is also gender neutral. You know, like, Pip is a gender neutral name. Like, it's not that hard.Destiny: It's sad. It is really sad. It's like across the board like, society.Pip: Specifically within arts events that you, you would hope, because they tend to be more progressive spaces that they'd at least be aware of it, you know, I mean, again, yeah, they're, I think I've been lucky enough to go to events, that are more progressive, are more diverse. And I guess that's a privilege in some ways of being in London that I have access to these spaces. Yeah. But it's very sad. It's very sad to hear that, that performers can be treated that way in events, it really is. Yeah, I mean, It's definitely been like an amazing experience, very validating for me working with RISE. Because so many of our creative partners, the people doing the other beautiful podcasts in this series are trans, non-binary people. And some of the people who run it are trans/non-binary. And it was so affirming, like, feeling very seen. And very accepted. Yeah, in that space. Yes. You know.Destiny: You're like, you're really right, you're really, really right. Like there's a comfort that comes with like, knowing that people will accept all of you, you know. And, like, there's some times where I go, where I go to events, like online or otherwise, or I go into a space and I'm just like, I better use she/her because this place isn't comfortable. Like, I know, this place isn't gonna be nice. I know, I'm gonna be misgendered on purpose. Like, it's really. It's really not worth it. Sometimes it's a weighing in your mind of like, do I want to be misgendered right now? I'm just like, I'd much rather choose to be misgendered than risk, the the being like brutally misgendered, you know, where people just don't care enough to like, use your current correct pronouns. Like they just don't care. And that's sad. But I'm just like, I'd much rather have that as a, quote unquote, choice.Pip: Yeah. No, for sure that that's, that's terrible. I didn't know that you had to deal with that. Yeah, that's awful. And, you know, these spaces shouldn't be spaces to be re-traumatised. You know, yeah, they really shouldn't be. And I know you've mentioned this at some point before, but like, you've had, you've talked to me about how you've had an issue with feeling like trauma and the arts can be almost inextricably linked, whether that be, being spaces where you are re-traumatised, or places where you feel like you have to use your trauma to be to be validated within the scene, because you're talking about something deep and difficult.Destiny: Yes, I have really seen this. And I've spoken to my therapist about this a lot. It’s just like trauma porn and like the way like traumatising experiences of people, like often marginalised people like queer people, women, black people, like people who are sidelined in society, kind of like mined for content. And we know that this is what society does already. Right? I mean, it's sad, you know, this place is meant to be, like safe, and comforting, and where you're, where you can feel safe to like, talk about these traumatic events, can also feel like it's kind of leeching off of those experiences.Pip: Yeah. And that really highlights for me when when I've gone to events, like there have been at least, like at least two poems, at any given time, that will feature very traumatic experiences. And I think that's very valid. But I think and, you know, I was operating off the basis that, you know, people tend to link art and sadness, or art and difficult emotions or art and pain. And that becomes a vehicle through which people can express and deal with and move through pain and difficult experiences. But to think that people might be feeling pressured to put their trauma into the space to feel like their presence and art is valid is so troubling to me. And it's horrendous, like, I have no words.Destiny: No, you're, you're right. It's worrying. It's really worrying. And I often feel this would like, whenever I would, like, talk to younger poets, and they will talk about my poems and be like, yeah, your poems are just so like, deep. And like, they just like stir people and they do things and I'm just like, it's not because they're sad. Like, like, I know, I know I have a lot of sad poems, but it's not because my poems are sad. Like that's why they do that stuff. It's not because of the trauma like the trauma doesn't doesn't do this. It's the skill, exactly. And yeah, it's sad to like, feel like you have to kind of mine this, this trauma for content, like I must get something out of this.Pip: Yeah. Oh my god. And that's very true. I thought about it, you know, like, I mean, I mentioned earlier that the thing that resonated with me was not the content necessarily, it was the delivery, the skill, the artistry that went into you. I don't want to say the word packaging, because that feels very capitalist. But your ability to be able to condense and wrap up these very difficult experiences, these very complex experiences into a form that even I could digest, and even I could understand was incredible. You know, like, that's, that's a skill. And that takes many, many years. And I think that would be a really interesting conversation to have, you know, like, the conflation of trauma with skill and with art, and that trauma does not equal art, art in and of itself is art and trauma can be interwoven with it, but trauma does not equal creativity.Destiny: Yeah. 100%. But like, you know, don't give them don't give them too much content Pip, like this is the first episode. This is just the first episode!Pip: But yeah. In light of that, I'm curious, like, what has the poetry scene really helped you with like, even just one thing that you feel like you may have not been able to understand, or have felt comfortable with, without it?Destiny: I think I would say the biggest help, has been finding people who care about creating and challenging the world as I know. And like finding people who believe in a better world and encouraged me to imagine it. Pip: Aw, that's beautiful. Very lovely. Okay, let's pause. Destiny:Well, this brings us to our first ever guest here on Creating Dangerously: Mandisa. Mandisa is a multidisciplinary artist that I love, and we are super excited to hear from them. Pip: Thank you so much for being here with us, man. Like we’re honestly so gassed about this.Mandisa: Thank you so much for having me. I was very shocked when someone asked me to talk.Pip: And a wonderful voice you're bringing to the podcast to like my goodness! Would you mind giving us a little self-introduction just so listeners can knows a little bit about you, however it feels comfortable for you to express yourself? And also your pronouns? If you wouldn't mind? Mandisa: Yeah, okay. My name is Mandisa Apena my pronouns are they/them. And I make stuff I write poems and I make videos. And, you know, that's kind of started from like, points of thinking about self and divinity. And yea I've been making stuff since, well, basically since forever, but kind of like more I guess professionally since I was 18 like 5 years ago.Pip: You know, speaking of like self and self-identity, like I'm actually really interested that you mentioned that your work explores self and divinity and how those things intersect in your view, how do you feel like they intersect? Mandisa: So like, so me and my housemates just had like a massive conversation about this this morning.Pip: Topical!Mandisa: Topical, we were just thinking about like, and kind of like joking, but I like opinions on what like the self actually is and like one of my housemates was very much like, like believes the self is just how we've experienced things on this earth and like, it's a makeup of our experiences as the person we are so like being Black or being like, disabled or being like white or being this like whatever like your identity is definitely like imbues the self. And I definitely agree that it does, it does definitely like navigate your way of caring about the world. I think it's something more like universal and and deeper. And yeah, I was like I was I was saying like, I definitely like think even though like I'm black, and like, a white person may never, like really understand like or experience what I'm experiencing. I don't think it's excluded for them to be thinking the way I think or like, feel the way I feel, experience life the way I experience life. That's something that is, like, universal when you get down to the core of it.Pip: Yeah, like the experience of life. Mandisa: Yeah, no, no, exactly. And of embodying that life through like a human form. So yeah, my work is very much about, like, trying to get to the heart of that, and what that actually means because I feel like I have definitely an idea, and I've experienced it, but yeah, I feel like it's, you're trying to get to that. Pip: Yeah, that's a very slippery concept to try and grapple with as well. I mean, very, extremely interesting, as well, I love that asking you to introduce yourself, naturally lead into a conversation about identity and how identity exists as like a construct in society of also how we experience things like experientially, like, how do we define ourselves and what labels do we choose to take on and even us talking about pronouns at the beginning, you know, we're all you know, all three of us are they-themers out here in the pronoun field, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we're non-binary, you know, you can use they/them and and be cis if you wanted to be like, if you want to use they/them pronouns, you can still be cis and you know you can be a man, you can identify as a man and use they/them pronouns. And I love that I think I love the multiplicity and the the flexibility of identity. And I can imagine that's a really exciting and pliable idea to kind of start moving around with art.Mandisa: We were talking about, like, our identities, or I was saying like our identities, like lenses, that we have a view on the world, for me something like my blackness or non-binariness also comes to, like, on one side, it is it only exists because of an other, like my blackness only exists because of like, a whiteness or like an Asianness, or like, you know, another -ness to compare it to. And in that way, it is kind of like, I guess, a response rather than maybe, like, innate, but also like, there is something about my blackness that is kind of just like, you know, certain things that like culturally like black people do, have been brought up to do. No, I can't think of an example. Like I was thinking, with like my like non-binariness, it allows me to not have to say yes to things I don't want to have to say yes to. Like, I definitely like I think, if there was I wrote a poem about this as well, like, if there was no one there to compare myself to, I wouldn't have the need to say I'm they/them because it wouldn’t… For me, personally, it wouldn't matter, because there's nothing to compar it to, you know, I am Mandisa, like, obviously. And that's who I am. I just feel the need to say I'm they/them for other people so they can understand or a sort of idea of how I'm navigating life and have I want people around me to see me. Destiny: That's really interesting. I think it's making me think of how enforced gender is especially the gender we’re assigned at birth. And how at least for me non-binariness feels like being able to have a choice in that and being able to be like, no, I don't want this enforced on me anymore.Pip: Truly, I really vibe with that. I hadn't really thought about it in that way. But it is massively freeing. It's a very freeing experience to be like, yes, I've grown up being told that I should be XYZ but quite frankly, my experience has not been that and I would like to define how I navigate spaces. I would like to define that these clothes are Pip's clothes, they're not a boy's outfit or a girl's outfit. These activities and activity that I love doing like, it being feminine or masculine in terms of how society has deemed to be is irrelevant to whether I enjoy it or not. When it comes to experiences of gender, because they are, you know, I mean, you were talking about experiences of blackness and black identity, which obviously I cannot comment on, as I'm white. And there is an intrinsic nature to that, that I just will never know. But I can listen and I can, I can make space and I can make silence for those experiences to be heard and to be, you know, crucial in our society and in another kind of similar kind of conversation. And I feel like with gender, like you're saying, you have to, you know, especially with non-binary gender, when you're not being like overtly androgynous, or you're not being overtly gender confusion, and all these kinds of things, it's very much you define yourself in that space, but you have to signal to other people through your pronouns, or through language that this is who you are, please, like, see me this way, respect me this way. But with blackness, there's a lot less of a choice, I suppose.Mandisa: I think I think like, with, like, my blackness it is kind of like, again, like, going, like, I guess, in terms of socially, it's like, okay, like, certain things I have a fear about, or I'm nervous about or, like, for instance, just like getting a job, or like, you know, like, applying for a house or like, worrying about my little brothers out on the road, and stuff like that. And obviously, that's not all that blackness is, like, there's a lot of like, community within like, you know, like, Nigerian, like, because I'm Nigerian, like, Yoruba kind of like culture. And it is kind of like, you know sitting down together. Destiny: You're Yoruba! Mandisa: Oh yeah I'm Yoruba babe, are you Yoruba?Destiny: Yeah I am Yoruba!Mandisa: Gang Gang. Yes! Yeah, like, and that, like, informs the way like, I view the world. So, you know, like, blackness is a way to make me like more empathetic, and realise, you know, like people's other people's plates, and like, solidarity. Pip: You have a wonderful take on these things. I was thinking, you know, I was listening to you speak about this idea of like solidarity and community and how your experience of blackness helps you be, I think you said, like more understanding or empathetic of other people's plight. And I mean, that's gorgeous. But it's also a reflection of you as an individual, that you have that empathy and that you have internalised your experiences in a way that allows you to make room for others. And like that it was it was lovely listening to you speak about it, honestly.Mandisa: Yeah.Pip: But yeah, one. One aspect that me and Destiny have actually been thinking about for a while, is the idea of like, what makes art important, like in society, or individuals, philosophically, all sorts of things like that. And I think in terms of identity, it's very crucial because these are often private or internal experiences when it comes to identity that we then externalise or that the external world forces upon the individual, and forces
